Guild Wars 2

Well, I think you’ve proved my point satisfactorily now. Have fun whining.

Dear Karl,

while I`m totally agreeing with the logic behind the scepter nerf, it further limits condition based pressure builds to the silly dhuumfire trait. It seems you really want to pigeonhole us into the 30-20-0-0-20 build, since you`re nerfing everything else. Where`s the build variety? There is non, because you decided firenecros is the way to go.

It completely negates the multiple statements of your developers that you want to encourage build diversity. You continuiosly weaken any condition based alternative to 30-20-0-0-20, why is that?

Looking forward to your reply, thanks in advance and best regards

I got to say. Anet/dev team are one of the best I seen in a game since D2.
They seem to love there game & there passion shows lots.

Im super glad that we got a red post. It explained how/why this is. Something I don’t think you’d see other MMO’s dev’s do.

I still don’t think DFire & nurfs to other stuff to make it work, is the attrition we were promised with the balance patch/phase. The +6 if geared in heal power to vamp, was kinda insulting. The learn to play with DS, then removing using it as a ‘block’, has put us behind other class’s in dungeons, on long boss fights.

Anyway, rather than flame war. Because a Dev bothered explane the reasons for there latest small change. Let’s unite & make necro babys Wink wink

Mammoth.1975:

Well, I think you’ve proved my point satisfactorily now. Have fun whining.

Its a never ending show.

Bweaty.9187:

Anyway, rather than flame war. Because a Dev bothered explane the reasons for there latest small change. Let’s unite & make necro babys Wink wink

Hmm… I don’t think minions are all that viable in high level tournament to be honest! :p

I don’t think the minions are all that viable in much at all. They are worst minion/pet/companion I’ve seen in a game in over 10 years actually…
Well also:

The projectiles, (Not being able to shoot ya feet to get out of roots/shoots over wvw objects)

The joke of the Heals line, and there ‘fix’ to give Vamp +6 in full heals gear.

Lack of symbolic with other class’s due to combo finishers, and even the new bug where our P Mark doesn’t remove condi from allies.

Talking about bugs, how long did we have to wait to get 1/3rd downed life fixed? Why do they do things like add bugs like can’t swap weaps in DS, and say, oops but were not going to fix it…

Ok, so I took about 6 months or so off, because I was too mad-bro with bugs every time I tryed to play…

But there’s much I do really love about GW2, and It was nice for a Dev to explane there DFire means we nurf you in another way.

Karl McLain.5604:

[snip]…

As for the question regarding Chill of Death, the trait triggers if you strike a target that’s at 25% or less. Meaning if you strike a target that’s at 26% health and bring it below 25%, you’ll need to attack it again in order to get the trait to trigger.

Cheers,
-Karl

First of all, thank you very much for responding. Dev posts in the necro forum are always welcome.

Setting aside the possibility that Chill of Death is not bugged and working as intended (which I’m still not convinced is the case), then – at a minimum – the trait’s text description and your explanation of how it’s expected to function are not in sync with one another.

You state:

“…the trait triggers if you strike a target that’s at 25% or less.”

This implies the target must:

1) Be at 25% health or less.

2) Must be struck by the necro when condition #1 has been satisified.

When those two conditions are met, Chill of Death processes.

However, the trait’s description reads:

“Cast Spinal Shivers on an enemy when they hit 25% health. This effect can trigger only once every 20 seconds.”

It’s implied the target must have been hit at some point by the necro since they are “…an enemy…”. However, there’s nothing in that text description as written that makes Chill of Death’s processing dependent on being hit by the necro when the enemy is at 25% health or less.

The only dependency is that the enemy’s health hit 25%; it says nothing about having to be hit by the necro at that point. In other words, taken at face value, this trait should process any time an enemy who has been tagged by the necro at some point during the current battle is reduced to 25% health regardless of how they got there (and subject to the trait’s internal cool down of 20 seconds, of course).

Some examples:

Necro A applies some DoT conditions to an enemy. That enemy’s health degens until it reaches 25%. BOOM! Chill of Death processes; even if the necro doesn’t hit the enemy with an attack at that point.

Necro B slashes away at an enemy with a dagger. The enemy’s health reaches 25%. BOOM! Chill of Death processes immediately; it doesn’t wait for the necro to hit with yet another attack after the enemy’s health has reached 25%.

Perhaps this isn’t how you intend the trait to work. Maybe this is due to an intentional design decision or maybe it’s a technical limitation (e.g. the code requires the necro to land an attack to trigger a trait). If this is the case, then the trait’s text description and how it actually functions are not aligned with one another.

I understand the various reasons for keeping trait descriptions brief. However, in this effort to abbreviate, it has led to the descriptions failing to capture how the traits actually function.

If it’s the case that you want Chill of Death to process when the enemy is at or below 25% health and must be hit by the necro at that point, then an alternative description may have read:

“When an enemy is at or below 25% health, Cast Spinal Shivers on them with your next attack. This effect can trigger only once every 20 seconds.”

@Mammoth sorry for picking up on your numbers XD. I did saw your “around” words, but i actually wanted to bring this discussion to real values and not “around” real values. I believed that burning would scale proportionaly to bleeds when increasing condition damage, but it doesnt seems to be like that ;p. I had previouly tested with a very low condition damage just to see some numbers, and there burning did 6.6 bleeds stacks (462 burning vs 70 bleeding). I guess it does less damage in proportion to bleed when you cond dmg increases! I will try again later with decent condition damage in PvP to see how the math goes.

Also, when i say burning is a burst condition it isnt because you will actually be able to kill someome with burning alone, but it means that by the time you enemy is able to react and cleanse, it likely will have done its full damage already. And because of it i believe that further nerfing dhuumfire would be worst than the nerf we got.

I hadnt considered the fact that our bleed is AoE damage, but i dont think this also hurts necros in group fights by much. But staff just got a little better in comparison against cluttered enemies. I think that LF generation on scepter should have been increased by a bit to compensate for this loss is AoE.

@Karl McLain Thank you and your Mama for answering on this forum. I think that the current nerf was very reasonable. It will probably take a week for the balance to restore after necros and rangers changes, but i believe it will bring classes closer to equal standing. As some mentioned, this may hurt a little on build diversity, but i think they are first trying to balance the class’s damage output regarding other classes, and then work out on balancing its builds. Keep the good work!

Mammoth.1975:

Well, I think you’ve proved my point satisfactorily now. Have fun whining.

Your obvious lack of self respect and opinion that deviates from the mob mentality that feeds this… “game” is the only fun thing around here.
Have fun playing in a game where anything and everything happens on a whim of a mob. With utter lack of any kind of logical progression or thought out plan.
- WE WANT TO DIVERSIFY!
- HERE IS FIRE.
- NOW WE NERF ANYTHING THAT IS NOT FIRE. SO YOU ARE REQUIRED BY LAW OF GOD OF THE UNIVERSE TO SPEC INTO THIS kitten NOBODY ASKED FOR.
If this is anets idea of being logical and objective. Then have fun continuing to support this shoddy product. I hope their kitten tastes good for the amount of kissing you seem to provide is mind boggling.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

[snip]…

If it’s the case that you want Chill of Death to process when the enemy is at or below 25% health and must be hit by the necro at that point, then an alternative description may have read:

“When an enemy is at or below 25% health, Cast Spinal Shivers on them with your next attack. This effect can trigger only once every 20 seconds.”

I agree, I think this is what the skill actually does. Unfortunately it makes it slightly less useful, especially if you are trying to catch someone fleeing the fight because they are low on health.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Mammoth.1975:

Well, I think you’ve proved my point satisfactorily now. Have fun whining.

Your obvious lack of self respect and opinion that deviates from the mob mentality that feeds this… “game” is the only fun thing around here.
Have fun playing in a game where anything and everything happens on a whim of a mob. With utter lack of any kind of logical progression or thought out plan.
- WE WANT TO DIVERSIFY!
- HERE IS FIRE.
- NOW WE NERF ANYTHING THAT IS NOT FIRE. SO YOU ARE REQUIRED BY LAW OF GOD OF THE UNIVERSE TO SPEC INTO THIS kitten NOBODY ASKED FOR.
If this is anets idea of being logical and objective. Then have fun continuing to support this shoddy product. I hope their kitten tastes good for the amount of kissing you seem to provide is mind boggling.

Yawn…. disappointing. I give it 3/10.

Oh wait, you aren’t trolling? really?

Ok, well, I suggest a few people here follow the Anakin Rule. Read your post back before posting, if it sounds like it’s being read by Anakin Skywalker from Episodes 2 and 3 then you are being entitled and whiny. If you include insults about bodily functions, then you are frankly childish.

Godless.1857:

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

[snip]…

If it’s the case that you want Chill of Death to process when the enemy is at or below 25% health and must be hit by the necro at that point, then an alternative description may have read:

“When an enemy is at or below 25% health, Cast Spinal Shivers on them with your next attack. This effect can trigger only once every 20 seconds.”

I agree, I think this is what the skill actually does. Unfortunately it makes it slightly less useful, especially if you are trying to catch someone fleeing the fight because they are low on health.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Mammoth.1975:

Well, I think you’ve proved my point satisfactorily now. Have fun whining.

Your obvious lack of self respect and opinion that deviates from the mob mentality that feeds this… “game” is the only fun thing around here.
Have fun playing in a game where anything and everything happens on a whim of a mob. With utter lack of any kind of logical progression or thought out plan.
- WE WANT TO DIVERSIFY!
- HERE IS FIRE.
- NOW WE NERF ANYTHING THAT IS NOT FIRE. SO YOU ARE REQUIRED BY LAW OF GOD OF THE UNIVERSE TO SPEC INTO THIS kitten NOBODY ASKED FOR.
If this is anets idea of being logical and objective. Then have fun continuing to support this shoddy product. I hope their kitten tastes good for the amount of kissing you seem to provide is mind boggling.

Yawn…. disappointing. I give it 3/10.

Oh wait, you aren’t trolling? really?

Ok, well, I suggest a few people here follow the Anakin Rule. Read your post back before posting, if it sounds like it’s being read by Anakin Skywalker from Episodes 2 and 3 then you are being entitled and whiny. If you include insults about bodily functions, then you are frankly childish.

Good job on being a tool. You obviously lack ability to read or comprehend whats written and towards what/who it was directed.
So again. Congratulations on being a forum tool.

Surely you have better things in your life to whine about HiSaZul.

Well, HiSaZul could`ve chosen to be a bit more diplomatic, but I`m wholeheartedly agreeing to his actual message:

Before Dhuumfire we had at least three very viable, very balanced and somewhat equally effective terror builds, now since they nerf everything but dhuumfire into oblivion we have 30-20-0-0-20 and…. thats it. It`s poor balancing decision made by developers who tell us every day that they want to encourage build diversity. Yet their approach shows the opposite direction.

Could you guys please think for a moment before diminishing someone`s input. He has a very legit point.

I`d highly appreciate a Dev`s reply on this.

Best regards

Shrug, we had different builds before the giant terror buff too. The game changes, adapt or die I think is the saying. Plenty of top necros are running power specs atm, compared to just one that I can recall last year, Khalifa. So we have viable power and viable condis for a change. Plus there’s Xoms metagame spec that he played to top 100, and the no dhuumfire condi spec I posted in the post your builds thread that I played to top 100. There are probably other viable alternatives to 30/10/0/0/30 for power necros as well. If your positioning and awareness is super pro, you could probably still make a Powerr style hybrid work too, but it would be a pretty brave choice in the world of stunwarriorspam. Doubly so in solo queue, where only a very few players seem to do basic things like peel for their teammates.

Compare to mesmers, who have been 20/20/0/0/30 for….ever. Or eles, who have always had at least 20 in water and 30 in arcane to be competitive. Warriors right now are not going to do well without 30 in discipline. Rangers have been x/x/30/30/0 for months. I don’t know much about thief and engi specs, but guards at least have a couple of options for bunkering and the semi bunker hybrids are good for solo queue too.

Also, since I apparently need to point it out again, it’s not dhuumfire that is doing all the extra damage, it’s expertise. Dhuumfire has just finally given pure condi builds a reason to go into the expertise tree.

Oh, and please don’t ask me to avoid diminishing someones input when they open their post with ‘your obvious lack of self respect’.

I think that you guys focus a bit too much on Dhuumfire.
It’s powerful, yes, but many other changes occurred on the same patch.
The same patch that introduced it also added:

Tainted Shackles.
It’s a whole new skill in a previously empty, locked slot, thus a straight up buff.
And as it happens it’s actually a quite decent skill.

0.5s Extra Doom duration.
It’s 1 second extra when you stack Fear duration, an extra tick of Terror.

Spectral Wall: Inflicts Fear instead of Vulnerability.
Great skill now.

Most likely these two above changes together are what caused Terror damage to be nerfed later on, not Dhuumfire.

Spectral Armor recharge went down to 60s and is no longer removed by Death Shroud.

Signet of Spite. It went from garbage to really powerful.
3/4s cast with no projectile and 1200 range that applies 6 different types of Conditions? Really?!
Good luck dodging that.

And although less significant for Condition builds Life Blast got buffed a lot on the same day.
Also a whole bunch of skills got higher Life Force gains, including Necrotic Grasp jumping from 3% to 4% Life Force per hit.

A patch or two later a bug on Death Shroud was fixed.
The said bug caused it to take DOUBLE damage from direct attacks.
In effect we got double Life Force vs direct attacks from that patch.

Spectral Armor got changed to give 8% Life Force instead of 3%.
…but with an internal cooldown. Still, much stronger in some situations.

Saying that Dhuumfire alone is the cause for the nerfs is just silly.
Instead of using 1, now nerfed trait as the scapegoat look at all the changes as a whole.

As for why they are nerfing the Scepter… it seems pretty simple to me.
Power builds don’t use the Scepter, and not all Hybrids do either.
By nerfing Scepter bleeds the damage of pure Condition Necros is brought down a notch without affecting many other builds.
It’s a relatively safe nerf to do that doesn’t affect a million other things.

To me it seems like a small step towards bringing condition builds in line with Power and Hybrids.
Power is already pretty good, actually.

If you ask me they should get to buffing the less used ones soon, though.
Vampiric and MMs come to mind.

LastDay.3524:

I think that you guys focus a bit too much on Dhuumfire.
It’s powerful, yes, but many other changes occurred on the same patch.
The same patch that introduced it also added:

Tainted Shackles.
It’s a whole new skill in a previously empty, locked slot, thus a straight up buff.
And as it happens it’s actually a quite decent skill.

0.5s Extra Doom duration.
It’s 1 second extra when you stack Fear duration, an extra tick of Terror.

Spectral Wall: Inflicts Fear instead of Vulnerability.
Great skill now.

Most likely these two above changes together are what caused Terror damage to be nerfed later on, not Dhuumfire.

Spectral Armor recharge went down to 60s and is no longer removed by Death Shroud.

Signet of Spite. It went from garbage to really powerful.
3/4s cast with no projectile and 1200 range that applies 6 different types of Conditions? Really?!
Good luck dodging that.

And although less significant for Condition builds Life Blast got buffed a lot on the same day.
Also a whole bunch of skills got higher Life Force gains, including Necrotic Grasp jumping from 3% to 4% Life Force per hit.

A patch or two later a bug on Death Shroud was fixed.
The said bug caused it to take DOUBLE damage from direct attacks.
In effect we got double Life Force vs direct attacks from that patch.

Spectral Armor got changed to give 8% Life Force instead of 3%.
…but with an internal cooldown. Still, much stronger in some situations.

Saying that Dhuumfire alone is the cause for the nerfs is just silly.
Instead of using 1, now nerfed trait as the scapegoat look at all the changes as a whole.

As for why they are nerfing the Scepter… it seems pretty simple to me.
Power builds don’t use the Scepter, and not all Hybrids do either.
By nerfing Scepter bleeds the damage of pure Condition Necros is brought down a notch without affecting many other builds.
It’s a relatively safe nerf to do that doesn’t affect a million other things.

To me it seems like a small step towards bringing condition builds in line with Power and Hybrids.
Power is already pretty good, actually.

If you ask me they should get to buffing the less used ones soon, though.
Vampiric and MMs come to mind.

Tshackles – the fact that DS is still a buffed downed state (aka crippled version of the player) is still correct even after it got implemented, also all other professions got torment and we already got a good immobilize on dagger thus whine about it can go to hell (also giant cry and dark explosion that tells you to dodge the immob and damage is kinda obvious)

Swall – ok buff but it was worthless in pvp before

Sarmor – nefed flat out, even if it didnt work in ds it gave us a fighting chance in 1vx, now a worse endure pain if you are in DS
Swalk – destroyed, plain worthless, SoL and Wurm both better in their respective parts with better benefits

DS – no they actually just doubled the HP>LF transition, we take identical damage as before in DS AND they remove our absorb thus NERF of DS

Dagger and Staff LF generation was good as it was, scepter wasnt and still isnt, thus they just changed kitten around for the sake of changing, not balance.
For axe its true that it got buffed but it will be never be worth it with such a aa unkitten th other skills are bloody op (and they are kinda on the way to be).

Signet of Spite has a projectile, as do all skills with a cast time/not true instants, the fact that you can return it to the necro using the mesmer echo is a great example of “strong”, no its plain good now, it was kitten that required to be worth the slot. Wells and corruptions are still better slot ins but if someone wants burst they can now get a bit more without crippling their utility bar.

TL;DR – Necro got nerfed more than it got buffed. Problem is that the nerfs are way more obvious in pve and wvwvw than in pvp what is for “some reason” the main focus of their balance team. Adding dumbfire gave even more burst to a stable build, turning it op, then instead of reverting it and all being ok, they nerfed everything that was good for most build in general destroying build diversity to some set builds that only rely on DS and weapon skills or wells.

@ Mammoth:

Someone`s pretty full of himself, ha? Try to grow up, kiddo, I don`t care a bit about your great “achievements” and since I was talking about condition based specs, I`d like to recommend less bragging, more reading comprehension. Anybody`s opinion is welcome on these forums afaik. I get it, you feel like you`re a very special little princess, but please understand, there are grown ups visiting these threads as well.

How is brabbling about power specs and diversity of other classes`traits related, when I was focusing on condition based pressure builds? Seriously?

Sigh I just want Necromancer to play like a unique profession, not a re-skin of all the other professions. I am with Nemesis on this. I don’t care if there are situations the job struggles with if there are also situations Necromancer excels at. Balance, to me, does not mean equal capability for every task. That sort of thinking discourages cooperative play. Instead, balance should be about creating tasks which reward cooperation using a variety of specialized builds and unique professional skills. If the only builds that are necessary to complete a dungeon run are berserkers, that is not my idea of balance. The same goes for WvW and TPvP. (I could not care less about yolo. If people want to prove their skills in1v1, then make them play identical builds on identical professions.)

Godless.1857:

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

[snip]…

If it’s the case that you want Chill of Death to process when the enemy is at or below 25% health and must be hit by the necro at that point, then an alternative description may have read:

“When an enemy is at or below 25% health, Cast Spinal Shivers on them with your next attack. This effect can trigger only once every 20 seconds.”

I agree, I think this is what the skill actually does. Unfortunately it makes it slightly less useful, especially if you are trying to catch someone fleeing the fight because they are low on health.

Agreed.

If Chill Of Death actually worked the way it’s currently worded, then it fits very well with the vision of a necromancer being the anti-mobility class; the reaper of souls who catches you by surprise and is very difficult to escape from as you get closer and closer to death.

Let’s assume the trait worked the way it’s written. An enemy tagged by a Chill of Death necro is having their health whittled away. When it decreases to the level they are no longer willing to tolerate, they try to disengage. But, true to their supposed role as the attrition class, the necro has patiently drawn out the fight because they know what’s coming. Despite attempting to run, the enemy – suffering from DoTs – hits 25% health and – BOOM – Chill of Death processes, stripping 3 boons and chilling them. Now the necro goes in for the kill on their snared prey.

Instead – with the way the skill actually works per Mr. McLain’s description – the necro has to stay engaged in the fight, sticking to the enemy to get another hit in once the opponent has dropped to 25% health or less. This approach isn’t as necro-y feeling as the first and is not as effective at catching a fleeing enemy; as Godless states in the above quote.

It’s a subtle difference, but the distinction is important. In the former scenario where the skill works as written, the necro is playing as an anti-mobility attritionist setting up an opponent for a surprise snare the closer they get to death. It’s an indirect and less obvious style of play that is something at which a necro should excel (in my opinion, anyway).

In the latter scenario in which Chill of Death functions per the dev’s description, it lacks the nuance of the former scenario. It’s just another “in your face”, direct, overt trait to process in a head-on fight. It doesn’t function as well as a snare because of the requirement that the necro hit the opponent again after they’ve dropped to 25% health or less. By that time, the opponent has likely disengaged and the necro – with lower mobility and one very conditional gap-closing option – is unlikely to catch that fleeing opponent to land the hit that will process Chill of Death.

Is it a big deal? By itself, it’s not a big deal; though I still argue it would be better to have the trait work as written. What is a big deal is how this one trait serves as yet another example of the larger underlying issue. That is to say, the devs just don’t seem to “get” the necro profession. This shows in both big ways and small. Chill of Death is just one of those small examples. Nuance, subtlety, and indirect/counter-intuitive play have been sacrificed at the altar of direct damage and condition spam.

Moon.6371:

@ Mammoth:

Someone`s pretty full of himself, ha? Try to grow up, kiddo, I don`t care a bit about your great “achievements” and since I was talking about condition based specs, I`d like to recommend less bragging, more reading comprehension. Anybody`s opinion is welcome on these forums afaik. I get it, you feel like you`re a very special little princess, but please understand, there are grown ups visiting these threads as well.

I think you’d have to have a pretty strong inferiority complex to take a completely unadorned statement of fact and turn it into ‘bragging’. You were supporting Hisazuls little capslock tantrum about dhuumfire obsoleting all other condi specs, and I told you I played a condi spec with no dhuumfire to top 100, so I guess it didn’t.

Apparently however, you would rather complain about dhuumfire than go look at that spec, modify it to your taste, and find out for yourself if condi specs without dhuumfire still work or not.

Oh, and if you can’t figure out the relevance other classes lack of build variety has all on your own, allow me to help: Necro has more viable builds than most classes. There will always be ‘good’ specs and ‘bad’ specs, simply because one build will always be .0001% better than another in the same specific areas.

Anchoku.8142:

Sigh I just want Necromancer to play like a unique profession, not a re-skin of all the other professions. I am with Nemesis on this. I don’t care if there are situations the job struggles with if there are also situations Necromancer excels at. Balance, to me, does not mean equal capability for every task. That sort of thinking discourages cooperative play. Instead, balance should be about creating tasks which reward cooperation using a variety of specialized builds and unique professional skills. If the only builds that are necessary to complete a dungeon run are berserkers, that is not my idea of balance. The same goes for WvW and TPvP. (I could not care less about yolo. If people want to prove their skills in1v1, then make them play identical builds on identical professions.)

Probably the best single comment I had read on this forum. +100 to this!

@ Mammoth:

Selling your opinion as fact won`t help making your point. SoloQ (NA even moreso than EU) is in no way an appropriate measure of viability or equality of effectiveness, sorry to break it to you. Try again when you do something meaningful in TeamQ EU around Top 100 with your build. You`re bragging again trying to sell it as objective expertise.

I never said, we don`t have build options, they just aren`t remotely as effective as they used to be, especially compared to 30-20-0-0-20. And Anet is doing its best to widen the gap even further.

Please keep your fail assumptions regarding my reasons for arguing for yourself, passive-aggressive wording doesn`t make it any better. It`s kindergarten-rethorics, pretty pathetic to be honest.

Best regards

Moon.6371:

@ Mammoth:

Selling your opinion as fact won`t help making your point. SoloQ (NA even moreso than EU) is in no way an appropriate measure of viability or equality of effectiveness, sorry to break it to you. Try again when you do something meaningful in TeamQ EU around Top 100 with your build. You`re bragging again trying to sell it as objective expertise.

I never said, we don`t have build options, they just aren`t remotely as effective as they used to be, especially compared to 30-20-0-0-20. And Anet is doing its best to widen the gap even further.

Please keep your fail assumptions regarding my reasons for arguing for yourself, passive-aggressive wording doesn`t make it any better. It`s kindergarten-rethorics, pretty pathetic to be honest.

Best regards

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

It doesn’t really matter if a build is viable in top100 team queue when you’re not even top1000. Seeing as you’re in the 80% bracket in solo queue and 90% team queue, it will work fine for you, better than dhuumfire. Try it and find out for yourself.

Rennoko.5731:

On a personal note, this seems to indicate anet is accepting that Necro is fine everywhere but SPVP, which makes those of us in WvW much happier.

I think it was a fine change though, and really would not have been bothered if it happened in WvW as well. The spell has a fast cooldown, a huge area, and a good side-effect (cripple).

Yeah, because WvW necromancers were really in danger of becoming UP, right?

@ Mammoth:

Poor try, kid. As I said before, SoloQ doesn`t indicate skill, to brag about SoloQ achievements is like bragging about being king of unrated battlegrounds in other games. People who know, what`s up, play it just for fun, since ego 1on1 builds dominate and teamplay is reduced to… well it`s very low.

TeamQ does indicate skill however, when somone is taking it seriously and plays an adequate amount of games. I played less than 60 TeamQ games total, nonetheless I`m matched versus EU`s finest teams whenever we queue. Yeah, we lose more than we win, but with the amount of games played compared to our opponents, lack of experience and map knowledge is deciding factor, not individual player skill. You could ask for example Mogwow from Car Crash (EU`s best team atm) what he thinks about my level of play, you`d be surprised.

Somehow I knew you`d try bringing this up, when your arguments aren`t sufficient anymore. You really seem to be a very young person, pretty full of seeing himself on a ladder and reducing every discussion to the point where you`d compare your deluded ego and position on that ladder to the person you`re discussing with. So you`re the king of the kindergarten and want to show how special you are? Try discussing like a grown up without bringing your e-pride into it.

My posts were based on objective arguments, you should give it a try.

Moon.6371:

@ Mammoth:

Poor try, kid. As I said before, SoloQ doesn`t indicate skill, to brag about SoloQ achievements is like bragging about being king of unrated battlegrounds in other games. People who know, what`s up, play it just for fun, since ego 1on1 builds dominate and teamplay is reduced to… well it`s very low.

TeamQ does indicate skill however, when somone is taking it seriously and plays an adequate amount of games. I played less than 60 TeamQ games total, nonetheless I`m matched versus EU`s finest teams whenever we queue. Yeah, we lose more than we win, but with the amount of games played compared to our opponents, lack of experience and map knowledge is deciding factor, not individual player skill. You could ask for example Mogwow from Car Crash (EU`s best team atm) what he thinks about my level of play, you`d be surprised.

Somehow I knew you`d try bringing this up, when your arguments aren`t sufficient anymore. You really seem to be a very young person, pretty full of seeing himself on a ladder and reducing every discussion to the point where you`d compare your deluded ego and position on that ladder to the person you`re discussing with. So you`re the king of the kindergarten and want to show how special you are? Try discussing like a grown up without bringing your e-pride into it.

My posts were based on objective arguments, you should give it a try.

You’re still trying to shift the goalposts.

We have multiple viable specs.
Power doesn’t count!

We have at least one non dhuumfire condi spec for solo queue.
Solo queue doesn’t count!

It’s also better than dhuumfire for average skill team queue games.
Average games don’t count!

If you were genuinely playing to win you wouldn’t be crying about only having one spec, because you’d realise there is always only one best spec for each situation. So the narrower you make the criteria where a build needs to work, the closer the number of viable builds approaches to 1.

The really silly part about all this talk of the multiple viable builds we had before dhuumfire is that for months, very few teams were running necros with any success. Pretty viable.

Thanks for bringing real arguments, I get your point and agree to a certain extend, at least regarding having more viable options than other classes. But I wish we had more depth and variety for equal condition pressure as well, since I don`t like be narrowed down to one option and slight variations.

Is it a bad thing to ask for more diversity? I don`t think so, and I don`t think the impolite poster who was sharing my opinion (too lazy to spell his crazy name) had any other intention than bringing up that issue.

No feelings hurt on my side, best regards.

It’s impressive how the community can put so much input into this yet the devs posted 2 posts… and not even 1 paragraph long on one. Can we get some more feedback on this? Or is it just not going to happen?

Moon.6371:

Thanks for bringing real arguments, I get your point and agree to a certain extend, at least regarding having more viable options than other classes. But I wish we had more depth and variety for equal condition pressure as well, since I don`t like be narrowed down to one option and slight variations.

Is it a bad thing to ask for more diversity? I don`t think so, and I don`t think the impolite poster who was sharing my opinion (too lazy to spell his crazy name) had any other intention than bringing up that issue.

No feelings hurt on my side, best regards.

Same argument I’ve been using all along. You just seemed to focus on me saying that I had run a non dhuumfire spec to top 100 and decided it was bragging rather than evidence of viability. I understand that you may not consider that evidence of viability, and that’s what I tried to address in my last post. Communication issue is all, not unusual on internet forums.

@ Mammoth:

I see, you`re a lost case. I was just trying to end this senseless discussion in a nice way but you`re just to stubborn and full of yourself to react appropriately. I feel kinda sorry for you, you seem to be all sunshine and roses.

Your bragging is what it is, your heroic deeds in soloQ kinda laughable and still no valid argument provided except personal point of view.

Well, please don`t bother telling me how special you and your opinion are and lets end it right here, thank you very much.

Shrug, go ahead and explain where my line of reasoning changed course.

Andele.1306:

Tshackles – -snip-

Other Professions got Torment in certain Weapons or Utility skills.
Mesmer got it for Scepter, but it’s a pretty bad weapon for them.

Thieves got it on skill 3 on P/D combo, but I’ve always been more worried about melee Thieves.
I haven’t seen all that many use Skale Venom either.

Every single Necromancer got the skill for free for every build.
It could deal 100 damage and it’d still be a buff, adding to the mix.

Andele.1306:

Swall – ok buff but it was worthless in pvp before

Yes and now you can force people to run through it with Doom, adding extra Terror duration.
It takes some tricky placement, but is very deadly when used well.

Andele.1306:

Sarmor – nefed flat out

I almost never used it before the patch, it’s cooldown was insane.
Also now it can actually eat an Elementalist’s burst.
http://bit.ly/14xNCMU
I saw many people in the PvP section calling it imba, but I think that it’s just good now.

Andele.1306:

Swalk – destroyed, plain worthless, SoL and Wurm both better in their respective parts with better benefits

I mostly used it for swiftness and jumping off cliffs anyway.
I don’t think that I’ll ever understand why Locust Signet is so popular.
Aside from carrying Orb!
If it’s active was a stunbreak, I’d probably use it sometimes.
Wurm is a great skill indeed!

Andele.1306:

DS – no they actually just doubled the HP>LF transition, we take identical damage as before in DS AND they remove our absorb thus NERF of DS

I could swear I saw someone from Arenanet outright stating that we were taking double direct damage.
I may have missed later developments on that thing!

Andele.1306:

Dagger and Staff LF generation was good as it was, scepter wasnt and still isnt, thus they just changed kitten around for the sake of changing, not balance.
For axe its true that it got buffed but it will be never be worth it with such a aa unkitten th other skills are bloody op (and they are kinda on the way to be).

Many (most?) sPvP Necros use Staff’s Marks, and Scepter for everything else.
Thus Dagger and Staff’s auto got buffed and Scepter was left untouched.
Also Necro is now tiny bit less dependent for Spectral Skills for Life Force if using Dagger or Axe.
I agree that Scepter’s Life Force generation really is bad.
Axe’s auto is garbage, it’s other two skills are good but I wouldn’t call them OP.

Andele.1306:

Signet of Spite -snip, length limit-

If you wanna be technical then yea it does have an invisible projectile.
Point was you apply that many condis from 1200 range in 1 skill with a short cast time.
It provides very little chance counterplay in many situations.
Much of the meta is focused around condi spam now and I think that it’s horribly boring to play.
Looking at skills like these and making them easier to dodge would bring the condi spam down a bit and allow for buffs and changes to other things.

Andele.1306:

TL;DR – Necro got nerfed more than it got buffed. Problem is that the nerfs are way more obvious in pve and wvwvw than in pvp what is for “some reason” the main focus of their balance team. Adding dumbfire gave even more burst to a stable build, turning it op, then instead of reverting it and all being ok, they nerfed everything that was good for most build in general destroying build diversity to some set builds that only rely on DS and weapon skills or wells.

sPvP is pretty much ruling all balancing, which is pretty dumb in my opinion, but that’s just how it is.

Dhuumfire added too much burst, but Tainted shackles, Spectral Wall, Spectral Armor, Signet of Spite, Life Blast and untraited Marks have all gotten buffs.
Imo their worst mistake was giving Dhuumfire to Terror builds instead of making it the linchpin of a new build type. (For Hybrids?)

Dhuumfire’s duration has already been cut by a third and I’ve heard that at higher tiers you see surprisingly many Power Necros nowadays.
Also I’ve heard that some Necros just forgo Dhuumfire in sPvP completely now.

If I had to guess I’d predict that in the upcoming months, or possibly early next year the Necromancer will be given more tools to counter CC, some sort of counter to strong boss attacks in PvE, Vampiric buffed and quite possibly a nerf to Doom.

Of course I could be completely wrong and you could be completely right, I’m just stating how I personally see the situation right now.
I’m just saying that blaming everything on 1 trait is silly.
Look at all the big and small changes adding up.

Edit: Fixed filter breaking link.

a very small adjustment, not very important to me as I don’t PvP with my necro all that much, and the AOE bleed damage isn’t all that important since mobs die so quickly anyways.

I’m hoping the next patch is a balance patch, and they make death nova’s direct damage proc when you kill a minion via putrid explosion/taste of death/necrotic transversal. I’ve been told that it was made otherwise for “balance reasons” but I don’t think bone minions would be too strong that way.