If 30/30/10 does too much damage, please find a way to hit it that doesn’t impact 0/30/x/x/x builds. The Terrormancer condi build is tons of fun and not remotely overpowered. Please don’t leave it as collateral damage.
I don’t think they will… and if they do, it’s a mistake.
Well, i would like Dhuumfire not be nerfed because of terror !
Well, i would like Dhuumfire not be nerfed because of terror !
you are right
burning it’s perfect for some power builds, cause it don’t really needs condition damage to be effective.
Actually, Do NOT touch anything! With not even the time for the Meta to adapt and talking already of nerfing, what sheer nonsense!
Well, i would like Dhuumfire not be nerfed because of terror !
you are right
burning it’s perfect for some power builds, cause it don’t really needs condition damage to be effective.
Right, the complaints of other players pertaining condition builds should be ignored because burning fits some power builds?
On a side note: why would a power necro pick Dhuumfire instead of Close to Death?
Actually, Do NOT touch anything! With not even the time for the Meta to adapt and talking already of nerfing, what sheer nonsense!
It’s certainly not nonsense. It’s been a week, “the meta” doesn’t need that long to adept to new builds.
Blaine, I’m with you on this.
I’m not a power necro, not even hybrid. I’m a condimancer, bleeding spec, and dhuumfire is a great tool for extra pressure. I have 30 pts in spite now, but use to run 20 before th patch, for duration and for the signets (that’s right i play with this), and above all, i don’t use terror.
Well, i would like Dhuumfire not be nerfed because of terror !
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Dhuumfire fulfills the role of establishing a PvE / WvW viable power / condition hybrid. Necros have been given a third build to play around with (full DD, full CD, hybrid) and a nerf to Dhuumfire would set it back quite a ways.
On a side note: why would a power necro pick Dhuumfire instead of Close to Death?
To throw some numbers at you pertaining to a hybrid build:
Close to Death provides an approximate 10% DD damage boost averaged over the course of a fight.
Burning with 1000 condition damage will tick for 578 damage. Assuming an 80% duration increase, burning has a duration of 7.2 seconds; in other words, Dhuumfire has an approximate 70% up-time. This would provide an average of 400 DPS over the course of a fight (578 * 0.7).
Note: Both of these values come from my hybrid build. Also, I realize that I am simplifying the up-time calculation on burning. I am assuming the extra ticks provided by the partial second in my burn duration offset the time required to crit after Dhuumfire’s cooldown expires.
This means that I would need to be doing an average of 4k direct damage DPS in order for CtD to offset Dhuumfire. That output would likely require a zerker power build (which I also run, but there are several pros and cons between the two builds).
+1 To the title.
Nerfing terror would only be a partial nerf to 30/30 builds, while being a major nerf to any traditional condi build that doesn’t not go spite, almost forcing you back into burning to get burst back and condition coverage back up.
Which would be counter productive to what their intention is, which is to make Necro more survivable.
Remove Dumbfire and forget all about giving necromancers burning and give us stealth instead. Right now we need a way to deal with the assist train more than anything. Let’s face it, burning never fit the class thematically anyway.
Remove Dumbfire and forget all about giving necromancers burning and give us stealth instead. Right now we need a way to deal with the assist train more than anything. Let’s face it, burning never fit the class thematically anyway.
I disagree, fire is a great condition for pressure, and anet could make our fire green, to be more in line with the necro background (you know, there’s a fotm that class has a special fire animation too)
I disagree, fire is a great condition for pressure, and anet could make our fire green, to be more in line with the necro background (you know, there’s a fotm that class has a special fire animation too)
Fire is still an element of life. Our purpose as necromancers is to extinguish it and embrace the darkness of death. We’re not warlocks.
And terror builds already have a tremendous amount of pressure when played right. The burning is just overkill.
Actually, Do NOT touch anything! With not even the time for the Meta to adapt and talking already of nerfing, what sheer nonsense!
It’s certainly not nonsense. It’s been a week, “the meta” doesn’t need that long to adept to new builds.
Blaine, I’m with you on this.
On this topic, I disagree entirely. A week is practically no-time in the metagame. In a scenario where one class gets buffed from a non-viable to a balanced state, this is how the meta would normally progress:
1. Many people start playing buffed class
2. Pro teams adjust composition to add one (or more) of the buffed class to exploit new buffs. New team strategies are developed around buffed class
3. New compositions / strategies are explored to counter strategy developed in step 3
4. Meta has shifted to include multiple compositions / strategies that can play against the weaknesses of other meta compositions. Hopefully, over time, multiple viable comps are developed that can play out in a rock/paper/scissors/lizard/Spock fashion.
Currently, it appears we are at step 2. However, there appears to be little incentive for teams to progress to step 3 in GW2, as they can all just reroll the new “OP” comp in an instant (but that is another discussion entirely).
Now, I am not trying to say that Necros are balanced in their current state. I just think it is too early for anyone to know whether Necros are currently OP or just viable. Our current inability to survive any sort of CC train makes me doubt the OP-ness.
+1 To the title.
Nerfing terror would only be a partial nerf to 30/30 builds, while being a major nerf to any traditional condi build that doesn’t not go spite, almost forcing you back into burning to get burst back and condition coverage back up.
Which would be counter productive to what their intention is, which is to make Necro more survivable.
I agree with this also. ANet is in a tricky position here:
If they nerf Terror such that Terror + Dhuumfire is an acceptable level of condition burst, then all condition Necros will be pigeon-holed into 30/30/x. This is obviously bad for the class.
OTOH, if they overly nerf or remove Dhuumfire, they will destroy the hybrid builds that rely on both direct and condition damage.
I think the real issue is finding a way to make Terror and Dhuumfire exclusive. Perhaps move them both to GM Curses trait line?
Our current inability to survive any sort of CC train makes me doubt the OP-ness.
You’re absolutely right, our survivability is currently underpowered. Necromancers along with warriors will always be targeted first due to how easy we are to bring down. We don’t have stealth, we don’t have evade, we don’t have block. We’re practically defenseless out there. It’s bad.
But our condition pressure is also currently overpowered.
I think it’s very silly to call a class as a whole either OP or UP. It can be both and often is.
On a side note: why would a power necro pick Dhuumfire instead of Close to Death?
….
Burning with 1000 condition damage will tick for 578 damage. Assuming an 80% duration increase, burning has a duration of 7.2 seconds; in other words, Dhuumfire has an approximate 70% up-time. This would provide an average of 400 DPS over the course of a fight (578 * 0.7).
…This means that I would need to be doing an average of 4k direct damage DPS in order for CtD to offset Dhuumfire. That output would likely require a zerker power build (which I also run, but there are several pros and cons between the two builds).
In case you didn’t read the very quote you posted from me: power necro… is what I wrote.
So let me crunch some numbers for you this time:
A power build will just have +30% from Spite and 0 condition damage (unless you got some points in Curses). That means Dhuumfire does 5×328=1640 damage every 10 seconds under optimal conditions. So yeah, a power necro will definitely be better off taking Close to Death instead.
Our current inability to survive any sort of CC train makes me doubt the OP-ness.
That’s an entirely different problem, a very real one at that, but it has nothing to do with the condi pressure that Dhuumfire added to the necros arsenal.
I already wrote this in a different thread, I believe Dhuumfire should do ~2 stacks of torment instead of burning.
Our current inability to survive any sort of CC train makes me doubt the OP-ness.
You’re absolutely right, our survivability is currently underpowered. Necromancers along with warriors will always be targeted first due to how easy we are to bring down. We don’t have stealth, we don’t have evade, we don’t have block. We’re practically defenseless out there. It’s bad.
But our condition pressure is also currently overpowered.
I think it’s very silly to call a class as a whole either OP or UP. It can be both and often is.
There is truth to your last statement for sure. I think the difficulty for the devs revolves around their vision of the Necro.
They don’t want Necros to have CC immunity (Stability / Invulnerability)
They don’t want Necros to have escapes (Blinks, Stealth)
They don’t want Necros to have mobility (Vigor, Charges, Blinks)
Without these things, Necros are forced to engage until someone dies. Unfortunately, there are only two things left the devs can give Necros so that we have a fighting chance: raw damage and crowd control.
Thus you end up where we are today. For Necro to stand a chance, they need strong CC and burst, which is classified as OP. ANet will need to bend on their aforementioned vision of the Necro if they want this dynamic to shift (not that I think it necessarily needs to).
Oh, I don’t disagree. If they’re going to take shots at our condition pressure they better be prepared to give something substantial in return. I’m sure most competitive necromancers wouldn’t mind taking a hit there if it meant getting an actual escape in return because right now the biggest issue we’re facing as a class is how easy it is to assist train us.
On a side note: why would a power necro pick Dhuumfire instead of Close to Death?
….
Burning with 1000 condition damage will tick for 578 damage. Assuming an 80% duration increase, burning has a duration of 7.2 seconds; in other words, Dhuumfire has an approximate 70% up-time. This would provide an average of 400 DPS over the course of a fight (578 * 0.7).
…This means that I would need to be doing an average of 4k direct damage DPS in order for CtD to offset Dhuumfire. That output would likely require a zerker power build (which I also run, but there are several pros and cons between the two builds).
In case you didn’t read the very quote you posted from me: power necro… is what I wrote.
So let me crunch some numbers for you this time:
A power build will just have +30% from Spite and 0 condition damage (unless you got some points in Curses). That means Dhuumfire does 5×328=1640 damage every 10 seconds under optimal conditions. So yeah, a power necro will definitely be better off taking Close to Death instead.Our current inability to survive any sort of CC train makes me doubt the OP-ness.
That’s an entirely different problem, a very real one at that, but it has nothing to do with the condi pressure that Dhuumfire added to the necros arsenal.
I already wrote this in a different thread, I believe Dhuumfire should do ~2 stacks of torment instead of burning.
First quote:
True, a zerker necro will always want CtD. I was just pointing out that other Necro “power” builds will invest 30 into Spite, benefit from both the power and duration, and prefer Dhuumfire over CtD.
I noted in another post that I believe the only issue (if there really is one), is the pairing of Dhuumfire and Terror. Personally, I would love it if they just moved Dhuumfire and Terror to Curses GM (mmm, Axe training, CtD & Dhuumfire). Of course, that would likely result in a different OP build.
RE Torment vs. Burning on Dhuumfire:
This solution might work, and would also address the perceived coverage problem. However, ICD, duration and proc rate would need to be adjusted significantly.
Oh, I don’t disagree. If they’re going to take shots at our condition pressure they better be prepared to give something substantial in return. I’m sure most competitive necromancers wouldn’t mind taking a hit there if it meant getting an actual escape in return because right now the biggest issue we’re facing as a class is how easy it is to assist train us.
Here’s the thing: I don’t think having a slow immobile class that is a damage powerhouse is bad for the game. In fact, it adds variety.
Think about how many classes in this game are fast, mobile, bursting roamers: pretty much any viable damage class (expect HGH Engy). If you are not a roamer, then you are likely a bunker. IMO, the game could use more roles as long as they result in balanced gameplay.
A class that is slow, immobile, easy to CC and dominates team fights if not dealt with? I still think it could help the meta.
(Completely off topic, every time I type meta today, it first comes out as meat. I must be hungry…)
I think the real issue is finding a way to make Terror and Dhuumfire exclusive. Perhaps move them both to GM Curses trait line?
Then Terror would just become de facto better than Dhuumfire for most builds.
You’re right, though, ideally it would become difficult for specs to fit both traits in there.
(edited by Blaine Tog.8304)
Oh, I don’t disagree. If they’re going to take shots at our condition pressure they better be prepared to give something substantial in return. I’m sure most competitive necromancers wouldn’t mind taking a hit there if it meant getting an actual escape in return because right now the biggest issue we’re facing as a class is how easy it is to assist train us.
Here’s the thing: I don’t think having a slow immobile class that is a damage powerhouse is bad for the game. In fact, it adds variety.
Think about how many classes in this game are fast, mobile, bursting roamers: pretty much any viable damage class (expect HGH Engy). If you are not a roamer, then you are likely a bunker. IMO, the game could use more roles as long as they result in balanced gameplay.
A class that is slow, immobile, easy to CC and dominates team fights if not dealt with? I still think it could help the meta.
(Completely off topic, every time I type meta today, it first comes out as meat. I must be hungry…)
I couldn’t agree more… this is exactly what i envisioned necromancer to be after this patch, i also thought it is what ArenaNet wanted for the class. They didn’t give us more attrition like i suggested with my DS 5, so we can be annoying a lot… like something that keeps coming and coming, like a bunker elementalist. They made us a real threat.
Until now they were focusing us because we’re the most easy to be focused, but if they don’t focus us… well… nothing too bad happens. Now they will still focus us, but at least if we escape… something bad happens, something very bad.
I like those odds, now i know that i got zerged for a reason… now i know they fear me instead of “oh look… free kill… weeeee”.
Anyone claiming that a necromancer can escape being focused by 3 skilled players is a liar. Hell… sometimes even two skilled players are enough. It still is the only class that can’t escape focus fire…
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