Please reconsider Necromancer design philosophy

Please reconsider Necromancer design philosophy

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Posted by: instantcoffee.1785

instantcoffee.1785

Based on what we’ve been getting from the devs in terms of necromancer design goals / the ‘stencil’ of how they should function, not only is it impractical but it will never work in the environment GW2 has made with SPvP.

First I will address the ‘inescapable’ issue. The idea that necromancers, once engaged are hard or impossible to escape and because of this we give up OUR escape abilities.
We all know that this is, currently, not true, lets just slide aside the fact that we are very escapable.
Now in order for this class design to work a few things must be true. One is that we must not just be a good 1v1 class, which currently we are not. We must be the BEST 1v1 class as we have only the option to ‘lock horns’ as they say and duel it out. What good is the ability to lock horns if it’s a lost cause and you can only see defeat?

Secondly, what’s more important than being able to keep up with a target – if this is your design intent, to stay on our target indefinitely – is to keep the target from escaping to seek help, because once the target is able to retreat to their team, you’ve lost your fight and you aren’t really preventing them from escaping at all, they’ve escaped and it’s done.

If we COULD lock down an enemy and prevent their escape entirely, not only would we need absurd amounts more CC than we have, we’d be absurdly overpowered.

Moving on to the idea we are ‘attrition’ based. This doesn’t work in current GW2 SPvP meta. Slow damage is simply not valuable, you need to get your target OFF the point so you can cap it, this relegates us to a bunker/defensive role only. This brings us back to our other issue, we cannot effectively 1v1 most other classes, and even coming close to doing so requires kiting and significant movement, and you CANNOT ‘bunker’ a point while kiting!

Now a slight aside from function facts vs. fiction is how this play style effects ‘fun’ for public matches.

It’s quite simple really, you’re not in control of the outcome of public 8v8 matches, you’re 12.5% of your team, if the other 87.5% of your team is bad you aren’t going to have much fun unless you’re effectively capable of killing an enemy in a reasonable time frame to glory farm.

Lets be realistic here, most people doing 8v8 measure fun on glory, score and kills, not on the success or failure of their team, as playing to win often costs you more glory than if you’d lost and farmed kills all match. Because of this a class that performs poorly in 1v1 or at collecting kills in general is not incredibly fun to play for the average person in a public match, so when you’re team is bad, like really bad, like 500-100 at the end, being spawn farmed, you get NOTHING and have an abysmally unfun time.

At least as a burst class you can just about guarantee a kill every time your burst combo is off cool down, you can reap SOME benefit despite being on the losing team.

As a Necro you basically have one option. Return to Heart of the Mists, try another match.

Please stop ramming your head against this broken idea of a necro and create the class we need.

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Posted by: Wayfarer.2051

Wayfarer.2051

I read alot of “pub matches sPvP” in this post.
I acknowledge that the Necromancer, even if he would properly fill the role of what he is said to be supposed to be (i.e. if he wasn’t broken and partiially UP), he would not be a goot sPvP class for pub matches (i.e. glory farming and landing many kills)

The important question we have to ask ourselves is: So what?

If you want to glory farm, go thieve or pick up a decent team.
sPvP pub matches are a tiny part of the game.

Let’s assume the Necromance rwould have this “unescapable attrition class”-status, then what?
*In sPvP he would be the best defender and great for taking down strugglers
*In WvW he would fill a similar role, but also the bane to any big Zerg, since he could take them down with massive ammounts of AoE conditions and take on smaller backdoor groups.
*In PvE he would either be Slow AoE-Dmg/Support or an excellent tank because of hardiness and Vampirism.

The Necromancer is not an insane burster class. Even on Full Power*Prec build his burst is still outdone by his survivability. I run several builds, one of them a Power+Cond Hybrid with a DS. If I just stop to think about how DS will be, once it’s hunger-Mechanic works properly I get shiver,s because it hints that the Necor could have some serious survivability with a tree that focusses on Crit-Dmg and burst.

I dont want Thief or Ranger level damage or kill frequencies. I just want to dominate any fight that I survive for longer than 10 seconds. That’s what is the Theme for Necros. Even when facing impossible odds, they can still stay in battle.

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Posted by: instantcoffee.1785

instantcoffee.1785

Most classes have a burst option, a viable one at that, we don’t truly have one as all our ‘burst’ options basically make us a sitting, killable duck (lich form, aka moa form, dagger power build).

As a warrior I can be an attrition build, a burst build, a bleeds build, CC build, AOE healing & support build.

Guardian has similar options.

Eles as well, I’m not as well informed about engi, mesmers are quite strong in several areas, thieves are great at what they do, leaving rangers and necros with a narrow set of build options, let alone strong/viable ones.

It’s quite laughable that some classes have so many good options while others are told to just accept they have one mediocre one and the rest are laughably bad.

What the hell is wrong with this community that they think this is acceptable game making?

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Posted by: Wayfarer.2051

Wayfarer.2051

Most of the “laugably bad” stuff is just because of buggyness. Let them fix it first before tlaking about balance.
adn YES, takign away burst capabilities for longlivety and extreme AoE damage is acceptable I think.

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Posted by: Vorz.7952

Vorz.7952

It’s quite laughable that some classes have so many good options while others are told to just accept they have one mediocre one and the rest are laughably bad.

What the hell is wrong with this community that they think this is acceptable game making?

Please share with us the dev quote that says “deal with it or reroll”.

With the amount of complaining in this forum I’m surprised you came to the conclusion that the “community” accept the state of the necromancer (or every other classes for that matter, game forums really brings the best out of people).

I think most people understand that bug fixing and design changes take time and more importantly, you are not alone. There are other classes that need help and other bugs to fix too.

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Posted by: instantcoffee.1785

instantcoffee.1785

AOE damage is even more useless in 5v5 where you have less people and bunker meta where your goal is to kill some super tanky guardian, or be a bunker yourself.

I never said devs say that, I said the community says that. Please share with us the quote where I said it’s the devs? Look, I can do it to!

When classes have unequal imbalances they cannot give equal attention, they have to give special attention to the classes that are hurting most.

(edited by instantcoffee.1785)

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Posted by: Wayfarer.2051

Wayfarer.2051

Why are you so incredibly focussed on sPvP and 1v1?
GW2 is not balanced around 1v1, it’s balanced around teamplay. Because if it weren’t it would be like it is in WoW. thieves and rangers dominate every single Arena match and there is no possiblity to play something like a Paladin except as a HealTank. At least it was that way last time I played, which was around WotLK.
There is a reason why you can play any character in sPvP without having to level it: so you cna play sPvP and WvW/PvE independently.

I really hope the devs fix Vampiric builds so that we can stand a chance against more bursty classes. But right now, with a Soldier, knight or Cleric build with Spite and BM, I can withstand quite a lot of punishment.
Actually LOOk at the Spite line: it relies on Might and Vulnerability building up, so even in his Spite tree, the Necro is slow-paced. I really hope they expand on that concept. I like the idea of a class that gets stronger the longer the fight drags on, after all that is what Necro is all about. Postponing death so the enemy has time to whither and die from pestilence and decay.

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Posted by: ZeroRaiNs.7154

ZeroRaiNs.7154

There is a lack of misunderstanding and design flaw that I agree with every point the OP made. We do everything so mediocre that it’s sad to even compile a build with this many bugs/design flaws. The other professions perform much better in the conditions and burst roles that is worthy of discussion.

It’s inconceivable to think that there is this much disconnect and lack of communication between what to expect for us in the future. I understand it takes time to fix but we are talking about core Necromancer functionality.

I feel as if conditions need to be reworked because they seem rather wonky.

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Posted by: NatashaK.9418

NatashaK.9418

Now I see DS used for a second HP bar and for more damage in a power/crit build. If this isn’t the intended goal of necro’s core mechanic, they should change it.

Poison/chill/vulnerability seem like great attrition debuffs. As does stealing health. Make DS more about this. Make it work with either condition or power. Make these debuffs uncleansable in DS and linger based on traits.

Is the goal to have necros finish people off in DS? It doesn’t seem so as it’s not a burst class. So then a necro should be swapping in and out of DS with DS for the debuffs and normal weapons for damage.

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Posted by: Wayfarer.2051

Wayfarer.2051

Now I see DS used for a second HP bar and for more damage in a power/crit build. If this isn’t the intended goal of necro’s core mechanic, they should change it.

Poison/chill/vulnerability seem like great attrition debuffs. As does stealing health. Make DS more about this. Make it work with either condition or power. Make these debuffs uncleansable in DS and linger based on traits.

Is the goal to have necros finish people off in DS? It doesn’t seem so as it’s not a burst class. So then a necro should be swapping in and out of DS with DS for the debuffs and normal weapons for damage.

I have had the same mindset for a long time, actualy ever since I saw that you could “tack on” stuff onto DS with traits. There are just 2 Problems:

  1. DS itself isnt basic enough for it
  2. And the added on stuff is too weak and too few.
    Add a fifth skill, that maybe has soem Condition and Minion centered theme.
    Something like….“Inflicts 5 bleeds and summons a Jagged Horror that explodes upon contact with the enemy, inflicting Bleed and Poison on enemies nearby.”
    Also, add more stuff we can add to DS via Traits or make the existing ones better.
    “One 10s Vuln every 3 seconds while in DS”? seriously
    “33% upon critical to get 1% LF” Before they change dit (for the better) taking reduced Corruption recharge was better for BiP.

But I digress. The thing is: Every class can be build differently. And every class has a different thought behind it. the thought behind Necromancer is Attrition. Outlasting the enemy, making him get weaker with every second he in combat. For that to work, 3 things are necessary:

  1. The Necro needs to be able to last that long even against bursty foes
  2. The Necro needs to be able to keep the enemy in fights that long
  3. The Necro needs to be able to effectively reap the destruction and death he sows.

I can think of at least 3 Mechanics that on their own can achieve at least one of those goals. Not even big changes to the class, just tweakings or single traits.

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Posted by: PinCushion.7390

PinCushion.7390

I think the dev was attempting to say that a necro’s strong suit is control, if we trait for it. Being “inescapable” doesn’t necessarily mean being able to 1v1 everyone. It means being able to lock people down while our buddies beat them senseless.

Whether or not that’s true is open for debate, but I don’t think it was anyone’s intention for any class to be the king of 1v1 all the time.

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Posted by: NatashaK.9418

NatashaK.9418

I think the dev was attempting to say that a necro’s strong suit is control, if we trait for it. Being “inescapable” doesn’t necessarily mean being able to 1v1 everyone. It means being able to lock people down while our buddies beat them senseless.

Whether or not that’s true is open for debate, but I don’t think it was anyone’s intention for any class to be the king of 1v1 all the time.

Agreed completely. Everything has to be played smart. A build isn’t really a profession, there are choices to make. And if you were king of 1v1, then you’d have do give other classes even more opportunities to escape, rather than less.

You can see rogue classes in other games:
→ I can spec “can opener” ignore armor and kill tanks
→ I can spec poisons and silences to kill healers and mages
→ I can spec parry/evasion to go toe to toe with any melee dps.
(But I can’t be all of them at once.)

I was assuming the class was built around 3 weapons:
staff for good range / AoE
DS for shutdown CC
axe/dagger/scepter for main dps

Depending on point allocation, you’d be much better at one role or another. And a truly skilled player, giving up strong ranged/aoe, should be able to dance in and out of DS being extremely tough 1v1. This could still be countered by kiting at max range or an extremely strong opening burst.

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Posted by: Punny.9210

Punny.9210

a little bit off topic

Who really cares about sPvP u can make any class lv 1 and get in there. it’s just like LoL.
if u dont like one class u can easily make the others …..

Blackgate

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Posted by: Sprawl.3891

Sprawl.3891

glass cannon thieves can melt people that have no defensive cooldowns/endurance remaining.

I’d be happy if they made glass cannon necros should be able to do the same with bleeds if the target has no condition removal remaining. There should have some way to ramp up bleed damage over time beyond just maintaining stacks to make them bigger threats when spec’d properly.

Maybe some way to make power to increase bleed damage over time or something, idk but currently necros are just lame.

Sprawl – Necro – Eredon Terrace

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Posted by: Sprawl.3891

Sprawl.3891

I think the dev was attempting to say that a necro’s strong suit is control, if we trait for it. Being “inescapable” doesn’t necessarily mean being able to 1v1 everyone. It means being able to lock people down while our buddies beat them senseless.

Whether or not that’s true is open for debate, but I don’t think it was anyone’s intention for any class to be the king of 1v1 all the time.

it’s not true, even spec’d to max chill/fear/ whatever. most classes can escape with ease. I don’t care how you are spec’d on my mesmer I can escape any necro spec with stun/blink/stealth and can keep nearly any class in combat and in my range with phantasams, stun, blink.

Sprawl – Necro – Eredon Terrace

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Posted by: hackks.3687

hackks.3687

why would you bother trying to escape a necro when playing a mesmer? just run him over

Hackkz/Riggamaroll
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long

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Posted by: PinCushion.7390

PinCushion.7390

I think the dev was attempting to say that a necro’s strong suit is control, if we trait for it. Being “inescapable” doesn’t necessarily mean being able to 1v1 everyone. It means being able to lock people down while our buddies beat them senseless.

Whether or not that’s true is open for debate, but I don’t think it was anyone’s intention for any class to be the king of 1v1 all the time.

it’s not true, even spec’d to max chill/fear/ whatever. most classes can escape with ease. I don’t care how you are spec’d on my mesmer I can escape any necro spec with stun/blink/stealth and can keep nearly any class in combat and in my range with phantasams, stun, blink.

That’s because “Escape Abilities” aren’t really about escaping. They’re about MOBILITY! Mobility allows you to dictate the terms of the engagement, including when it ends. I’m not sure how this simple fact slipped through the design process, but it’s having an enormous impact on game play.

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Posted by: Wayfarer.2051

Wayfarer.2051

it’s not true, even spec’d to max chill/fear/ whatever. most classes can escape with ease. I don’t care how you are spec’d on my mesmer I can escape any necro spec with stun/blink/stealth and can keep nearly any class in combat and in my range with phantasams, stun, blink.

This is just the problem:
Necro doesn’t necessarely need only to have better/harder CCs (take Ranger’s or Sylvari’s vines as an example, noe imagine grasping dead doing that, that’s what I dream of) to make him what the devs intended him to be.
he needs to be resilient against most forms of CC as well, as everyone knows: CC is just another way of Escaping. Spectral Grasp and Dark path are just 2 good examples of how to keep someone in a fight, without making it an escape ability as well. Problems are: they are too buggy, too weak and too long on CD.

I repeat myself but still: Make DS some sort of “get up again” skill that allows us to mitigate a CC at any given time completely. Switching to DS just to deliver that 1 second flee most commonly HELPS enemies in getting away!
Don’t make us such pushovers. And if, make us get up again immediately.
I always have that image of the Dahaka from PoP-series when I think about DS.
I wanna be that guy, even if just for a few seconds.
I want to strike FEAR into people for just a moment, not that petty 1s condition, no REAL FEAR. the same kind of Fear someone gets when a Double Dagger Thief appears out of kittening nowwhere and spams them down, but not because “Oh kitten’ im gonna die” but more because “oh kitten I will not see the end of this!”
take away my Burst if you wish, as long as I can chase a thief over the entire map as he pathetically tries to save his teeny tiny Health pool!

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Posted by: PinCushion.7390

PinCushion.7390

I think stealth was designed to be the CC/Escape trump card, just like DS was designed to be the burst trump card. It’s too bad that one of those tools is far better than the other.