Guild Wars 2

I feel that our sustain should require us to interact with our opponents, actually, not ignore them. Necromancers are supposed to be the class that embodies Aggression magic. If a necro isn’t aggressive, they should not be effective. I am fine with a necro built for sustain to be nigh unkillable if it also requires them to constantly be jumping down his opponent’s throats to keep that up.

A necro in the middle of your team should ideally be the most annoying thing in the game to deal with because he keeps screwing up what you are trying to do and you can’t really focus him without giving his team free reign to pound on you.

hmm, I wonder if a mechanic where any LF gained once your bar is full granted healing instead would work.

Coupled with the traits of doing more damage with high levels of LF in reserve, it would give the enemy a choice of stopping to focus on the necromancer so he’s forced to use DS to survive – reducing the damage he’s doing and stopping the additional healing he was getting.

Of course this might make is even more the focus of being trained down quickly – but if the heal was significant enough, aggressive necros would get constant healing making them sustain considerably longer.

I support this ideia. Gives us back your DS on PVE, keep this change for PVP (spvp and Wvw).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I feel that our sustain should require us to interact with our opponents, actually, not ignore them. Necromancers are supposed to be the class that embodies Aggression magic. If a necro isn’t aggressive, they should not be effective. I am fine with a necro built for sustain to be nigh unkillable if it also requires them to constantly be jumping down his opponent’s throats to keep that up.

Aggression and noninteraction are not actually mutually exclusive. Ideally, our sustain should be the result of outplaying our opponents. If your defenses are simply too good to let you die, you don’t have to do that. You just keep attacking until your foe dies while you have little chance of dying yourself.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

A necro in the middle of your team should ideally be the most annoying thing in the game to deal with because he keeps screwing up what you are trying to do and you can’t really focus him without giving his team free reign to pound on you.

This simply can’t happen. You’re asking for the Necro to both deal a crazy amount of damage and also be extremely difficult to kill. D/D eles in their heyday were hard to kill but brought relatively little damage. As Necros are tuned now, they deal really, really high damage but are too easy to kill.

Necros should be hard to kill, but we should be possible to kill if you outplay us, and our damage should take some time to get out as compensation. Having a Necro on your team shouldn’t leave your opponents with no good options, which is what it sounds like you’re asking for. Or have I misunderstood you?

Blaine Tog.8304:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I feel that our sustain should require us to interact with our opponents, actually, not ignore them. Necromancers are supposed to be the class that embodies Aggression magic. If a necro isn’t aggressive, they should not be effective. I am fine with a necro built for sustain to be nigh unkillable if it also requires them to constantly be jumping down his opponent’s throats to keep that up.

Aggression and noninteraction are not actually mutually exclusive. Ideally, our sustain should be the result of outplaying our opponents. If your defenses are simply too good to let you die, you don’t have to do that. You just keep attacking until your foe dies while you have little chance of dying yourself.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

A necro in the middle of your team should ideally be the most annoying thing in the game to deal with because he keeps screwing up what you are trying to do and you can’t really focus him without giving his team free reign to pound on you.

This simply can’t happen. You’re asking for the Necro to both deal a crazy amount of damage and also be extremely difficult to kill. D/D eles in their heyday were hard to kill but brought relatively little damage. As Necros are tuned now, they deal really, really high damage but are too easy to kill.

Necros should be hard to kill, but we should be possible to kill if you outplay us, and our damage should take some time to get out as compensation. Having a Necro on your team shouldn’t leave your opponents with no good options, which is what it sounds like you’re asking for. Or have I misunderstood you?

I believe you took what I was saying too far.

First off, I never said a necro should deal tons of damage and be able to tank through everything. Heck, I suggested the opposite. Damage and durability need to be a continuum, but if you build for one, you should be good at it.

The presence of an aggressive necro in a teamfight should not be an auto-win, but they should make life much harder for the opponents. The ideal place that I feel for the necro is that you can out-play them, but the simple “he’s a problem, focus him down” should create a lose-lose situation for the necro’s opponents. The necro can be focused down, but it takes too much effort in an even fight for it to be your best first move. A necro going all-in should be a legitimate problem for his opponents. Like everyone else, you need to out-play him. That is where I feel they should be.

And yeah, aggression and non-interaction are mutually exclusive. You can’t be aggressive without interacting with someone. How they react to your aggression is also key to the fight outcome.

Interaction isn’t simply “attacking” the person. To go to League of Legends (because its always easy to draw examples there), they recently nerfed the 9 HP pot start that almost everyone had been using, because you essentially had 900 extra HP in lane. What it was effectively doing was completely removing the actual interaction of laning opponents during laning phase. That isn’t to say they were never attacking each other, but that the massive sustain brought by one side demanded that it be brought on the other side, and there was almost no point in recognizing that you had an actual enemy in lane because you would never do anything to them.

Drawing from above, interaction isn’t just attacking someone, it is meaningful play/counterplay that adds fun to the game. Just because a Necromancer is in the middle of 5 enemies to maximize their attrition, does not mean that there is meaningful counterplay to it. The old Retal/DS tanks in beta are an example of this. There was no meaningful counterplay to them, attacking them caused you to die off to retaliation before you could drain their defenses and killed them, there was no way to stop them from sustaining themselves, and if you didn’t kill them they could sit on point all game with impunity.

Not saying that is the case now, but that is an example of aggression (Necromancers were completely in their face on the point, disrupting the teamfight and getting damage out by way of retal procs) but no meaningful interaction going on.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

First off, I never said a necro should deal tons of damage and be able to tank through everything. Heck, I suggested the opposite. Damage and durability need to be a continuum, but if you build for one, you should be good at it.

Agreed — a continuum is good, with caps placed at both ends.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The presence of an aggressive necro in a teamfight should not be an auto-win, but they should make life much harder for the opponents. The ideal place that I feel for the necro is that you can out-play them, but the simple “he’s a problem, focus him down” should create a lose-lose situation for the necro’s opponents. The necro can be focused down, but it takes too much effort in an even fight for it to be your best first move. A necro going all-in should be a legitimate problem for his opponents. Like everyone else, you need to out-play him. That is where I feel they should be.

Lose-lose situations are bad game design. It’s one of the reasons I dislike Retaliation, Confusion, and Torment — they punish you for performing necessary actions in game. They’re kinda ok for the high-dyamic gameplay of GW2 but I still wish they weren’t a thing.

Having to deal with a Necro should be a nasty experience, but there should still be good options available to the enemy team. There should then be options available to the Necro to deal with an enemy team’s actions, and then the enemy should be able to react to those reactions, and so on and so forth. The idea is to create a self-perpetuating interaction circle where the cycle can continue until someone either screws up or simply handles their side of the equation better.*

The problem at the moment is that both sides of the equation are broken. The Necro can output a truly ridiculous amount of burst damage, but then doesn’t have a good answer for smart opponents that can manage to survive the burst. Whomever gets into trouble first loses, but GW2 is generally designed so that you have to beat your foe consistently over the course of the fight rather than just once.

The place I would like to see the Necro is one of either the “carry” or of the “disabler,” depending on build.

Necros built for carrying would be deal heavy damage while requiring some team support to stay alive. Their damage wouldn’t be as bursty as other glass specs, but over time it would add up to more, and they would have DS to allow them the tools to stay alive better than other glass specs.

Necros built as disabler would be more about peeling and debuffing. They would be hard to kill and deal low damage, but would have strong methods of protecting their carries by tearing apart foe’s defenses and CCing them. The trick to this is: a disabler Necro’s debuffs would be avoidable. Dodge the skillshots, apply Stability at the right time, clease condis, stunbreak from Fear, and you can get around the Necro’s peel. Conversely, a good disabler Necro would be able to aim and time their spells better than their opponents could dodge/cleanse them.

That’s more for PvE and WvW, you understand. If bunkering is supposed to be a thing in sPvP, then obviously Necros should be able to do that as well (though personally, it’s the very concept of bunker builds that keeps me from playing sPvP).

• An infinite cycle is obviously undesirable, but it is possible to leave it up to the game mode to break those when they occur, using by inserting an external timer of some sort.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And yeah, aggression and non-interaction are mutually exclusive. You can’t be aggressive without interacting with someone. How they react to your aggression is also key to the fight outcome.

A bulldozer can aggressively destroy some pylons without having to interact with them. A Necro that is unkillable but still has good damage can simply pressure his opponent to death without the opponent having any recourse except maybe to run, which means the two have no true interaction. EDIT: SO basically what Bhawb said.

Anyway, that’s enough rambling from me. Off to do my dailies!

Blaine Tog.8304:

Unkillable tank monsters are even worse game design. We need better sustain, but our sustain shouldn’t be so good that we don’t have to interact with our opponents. This was a big part of why the D/D Ele got hit so hard.

I give you the example of 2 league of legeneds characters, Cho’Gath and Aatrox, 2 defensive options of what i think necros could learn from, first off Cho, he is a giant demon who can buff his own health (DS) to kinda absurd levels if he kills enemies (with a specific move/life force) and his base build is on peremenent regeneration of that hp while having a high control/1 person kill potential, essencially he thrives in fights where he can control (and chill for necros) the opposition while focusing on a priority target that plain cannot run away unless designed to do so (e.g. thief and mesmer via blinks) and no amount of "burst can actually burst him, its coordinated waves of cc/kiting/dps that depend on his actions (if he uses his long ranged skill, push him back, if he is trying to stop you from attacking/getting you into his kill zone kite, attack as much as you can after he used his “burst” (in our case lich form/when we run out of plage and ds), thus making a hard to chip down, but cooldown based tank with passive low regeneration and no mobility and a good single target damage and sustained aoe

Second there is Aatrox
A combat high dps life siphon tank with aoe burst, essecially a low hp pool, medium defensive and mobility in your face fighter with long casts that change how much he can hit you for, how many times and how you can and/or must react, who turns immortal if nothing is done against him, can sustain trough burst/eat the inital wave and come back way weaker with a second life, but potentially regen back to full hp if allowed to do the damage.

Both could be viable ways to make necro sustain (being either a reliable control machine with a burst option, so you cannot kill it unless it can kill you) or a combat based immortal (so you can kill it, but if you drop your play/are sloppy, he is back to full and ready to kill), the combination of weaknesses we have of the 2 (long casts, combat based sustain, low resistances traded for potential effective hp AND long cooldowns on kill potential with no mobility and low sustain numbers) just dont work together.

Bhawb.7408:

Drawing from above, interaction isn’t just attacking someone, it is meaningful play/counterplay that adds fun to the game. Just because a Necromancer is in the middle of 5 enemies to maximize their attrition, does not mean that there is meaningful counterplay to it. The old Retal/DS tanks in beta are an example of this. There was no meaningful counterplay to them, attacking them caused you to die off to retaliation before you could drain their defenses and killed them, there was no way to stop them from sustaining themselves, and if you didn’t kill them they could sit on point all game with impunity.

First off it was a 7hp pot, 2 mana pot 2 ward start or even a invade with 2 normal and a pink ward (since most manaless and energy champs were balanced on the enemy having a limited mana and hp pool what wasnt the case) in any respectable elo.
Second retal was broken back then, cc was barely used as were boon strips (not to mention there was less of it) and Sarmor had a flat 50% damage reduction that you could proc twice with well pulses giving you protection, not what they then rebalanced before again nerfing it when it had counterplay.

Andele.1306:

I give you the example of 2 league of legeneds characters, Cho’Gath and Aatrox, 2 defensive options of what i think necros could learn from

Cho is a good example of a balanced champion with clear strengths that are useful to a team as well as clear weaknesses for enemies to exploit (as well as ways to get around his weaknesses). If there were a Necro spec roughly equivalent to Cho (hard to kill, high CC, no mobility, above-average damage but not an unreasonable amount), I think that would be just swell. Enemies could feel smart for kiting us while we could feel smart for pinning them down properly.

Aatrox… I would hesitate to use as an example of good game design. Necro drain-tank carries could be really interesting in GW2, though.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Aatrox… I would hesitate to use as an example of good game design. Necro drain-tank carries could be really interesting in GW2, though.

That is kinda the reason why i picked him, being the more gimmick/controversial based “tank” one could use (could have put irelia, tryndamere or xin in there, but i like the big girly black dude with a living spine sword more then them), but still win results and opinion from the people good enough to comment on it have resulted in sorting him with cho and co for the kinda situational but always baseline viable characters that have a big utility kit that they can use for either massive damage with low surviviability, tank power to go 1v3+ and not die (but also not kill anyone playing just good as them) for long enough for a objective/event/other thing to be done by the rest of the team or a balanced mix of the 2.

Afya.5842:

I understand your point. But you have to notice those class have damage mitigation in very popular weapon. Warrior’s is GS3 which very warrior carry one. Guardian’s is in 2 of the 3 offhands and no one bring torch anyway, so if you use one hand weapon, you’ll definitely end up with some protection in your offhand. Mesmer’s is in sword 2, and it’s a very popular weapon, also the only melee. I can safely say, more than 50% of the players playing above classes have those skills in their build. And as you mentioned, that’s not the only block skill they can bring. You can have 6-7 of those skills on a guardian, while having perma-vigor.

I don’t think DS is ever intended to be just pop and gone. But we simply don’t have anything else so DS is our last resort. No one will need to use DS overflow if we have 2s evade in our weapons.

Ele also has a complete invulnerability on focus, which also has a stun, a knockdown, a might building effect that burns while they’re hit, and a complete projectile mitigation 100% for the duration. And all of those are well under the minute mark for cooldown. Not to mention the engineer’s block/stun effects from shield complete with a neatly packaged blast finisher that also has a trait to further improve it’s effectiveness. And on top of all of those, each class also has either an invulnerability skill (mist form, elixer S, stealth (situational, not a true invuln but akin to a block or evade to direct hits), distortion (akin to evades) overwhelming access to stability, blocks invulns, massive condition removals and stun breaks→ (guardian), vigor for extra dodges on-demand (many classes, especially ele, ranger, engi, with guard close behind if traited for it), and then we get to poor ol necro. For this argument I will not include protection as damage mitigation, because it does little for burst damage, but feel free to plug it in as you see fit but the end results will be similar. Necro has…what? An extra hp pool. Awesome! Now ask a warrior with nothing but vitality stacked how much punishment he can take. While he might not have the actual effective hp necros do on paper, I think the results speak for themselves. They inherently have more base defense due mainly to access to higher armor rating, no one denies this. Their base hp pool is similar, if not the same ( I cannot verfiy this immediately if I find otherwise or confirm it I will edit it in) as the necromancer. They have easy access to vigor/stability/blocks, in fact they have several skills and traits that reward them for blocking. Yet a vitality stacking warrior gets eaten alive in a few hits. HP means jack squat in this game other than condition damage buffer.

Necro has (now) one extra hp bar, that’s not their true hp, but only maximum-at fully charged life force- “60% of your maximum health” as we were directly told. Originally, this extra hp bar would serve as the extra life, negating those massive hits that a light armor wearing class with no outstanding defensive capabilities used to survive those potentially fatal hits. Was this overpowered? Not really. you still had to use your own skill to anticipate that spike. If you misread the tell or paniced and popped too soon, your DS was wasted and the burst ate you up. Now though, no amount of planning will save you from the highest bursts. If you were any other class, you could twitch-react and pop your invul/block/evade but your twitch now instinctively hits DS since that’s what has been pounded into our heads the last half a year, except the burst will not only eat your DS up as before, but now it punishes you with actual HP damage. Congratz, you just got punished for using your own class mechanic. Welcome to the world of necro

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Ele also has a complete invulnerability on focus, which also has a stun, a knockdown, a might building effect that burns while they’re hit, and a complete projectile mitigation 100% for the duration. And all of those are well under the minute mark for cooldown. Not to mention the engineer’s block/stun effects from shield complete with a neatly packaged blast finisher that also has a trait to further improve it’s effectiveness. And on top of all of those, each class also has either an invulnerability skill (mist form, elixer S, stealth (situational, not a true invuln but akin to a block or evade to direct hits), distortion (akin to evades) overwhelming access to stability, blocks invulns, massive condition removals and stun breaks-> (guardian), vigor for extra dodges on-demand (many classes, especially ele, ranger, engi, with guard close behind if traited for it), and then we get to poor ol necro. For this argument I will not include protection as damage mitigation, because it does little for burst damage, but feel free to plug it in as you see fit but the end results will be similar. Necro has…what? An extra hp pool. Awesome! Now ask a warrior with nothing but vitality stacked how much punishment he can take. While he might not have the actual effective hp necros do on paper, I think the results speak for themselves. They inherently have more base defense due mainly to access to higher armor rating, no one denies this. Their base hp pool is similar, if not the same ( I cannot verfiy this immediately if I find otherwise or confirm it I will edit it in) as the necromancer. They have easy access to vigor/stability/blocks, in fact they have several skills and traits that reward them for blocking. Yet a vitality stacking warrior gets eaten alive in a few hits. HP means jack squat in this game other than condition damage buffer.

Necro has (now) one extra hp bar, that’s not their true hp, but only maximum-at fully charged life force- “60% of your maximum health” as we were directly told. Originally, this extra hp bar would serve as the extra life, negating those massive hits that a light armor wearing class with no outstanding defensive capabilities used to survive those potentially fatal hits. Was this overpowered? Not really. you still had to use your own skill to anticipate that spike. If you misread the tell or paniced and popped too soon, your DS was wasted and the burst ate you up. Now though, no amount of planning will save you from the highest bursts. If you were any other class, you could twitch-react and pop your invul/block/evade but your twitch now instinctively hits DS since that’s what has been pounded into our heads the last half a year, except the burst will not only eat your DS up as before, but now it punishes you with actual HP damage. Congratz, you just got punished for using your own class mechanic. Welcome to the world of necro

I agree with every single point you brought up in this post.
Seriously, this should be a must read for devs so they can fix our profession someday.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Ele also has a complete invulnerability on focus, which also has a stun, a knockdown, a might building effect that burns while they’re hit, and a complete projectile mitigation 100% for the duration.

And yet, it’s still a terrible weapon that leaves you with basically no damage or mobility (the former of which the Ele is already hurting for, the latter of which is their bread and butter).

I’m not disagreeing that the Necro needs better defenses, but the Ele focus is a bad example. We should not aspire to have Ele-focus levels of uselessness.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Ele also has a complete invulnerability on focus, which also has a stun, a knockdown, a might building effect that burns while they’re hit, and a complete projectile mitigation 100% for the duration.

And yet, it’s still a terrible weapon that leaves you with basically no damage or mobility (the former of which the Ele is already hurting for, the latter of which is their bread and butter).

I’m not disagreeing that the Necro needs better defenses, but the Ele focus is a bad example. We should not aspire to have Ele-focus levels of uselessness.

That’s a matter of opinion, I use it all the time to much success as do many other eles I play with. But you missed my whole point by focusing (no pun intended…ok maybe a little one) on that specific part. My point was, most other class has access to all the things we lack on actual weapon skills, not just traits or utilities. If that doesn’t prove my point I don’t know what will.

I 100% agree that one of our big problems is that we have no access to truly defensive weapon sets. We have some that are certainly more defensive than others, but all of our sets have as much use offensively as defensively, if not more.

I don’t think there’s any question that other professions have blocks/evades/invulnerability effects while the Necro doesn’t. Afya’s point was that other professions got those effects on weapons that are otherwise popular. The Focus decidedly isn’t popular. If you’re taking it, that means you’re giving up the offhand dagger, which has an AoE heal + condi removal, three of our hardest-hitting spells, a substantially better fire field, a blast finisher, AoE blowout, AoE knockdown, and RtL, which is still a darn good skill in spite of the nerfs and QQ.

I enjoy using the Ele Focus too and keep one in my bag for when I feel like screwing around or when I really, really need projectile blocks/reflects, but it just really needs a massive injection of damage to Fire before it will be somewhat competitive with Dagger.

With respect to the Necro, I don’t want them to give us a weapon with a block that sucks for everything else, whether it’s a mainhand weapon with a useless autoattack or an offhand weapon as lopsided as the Mesmer Torch (everyone agrees that The Prestige is awesome, but Phantasmal Mage is so bad it makes the weapon unusable).

EDIT: I also don’t want to see Anet try to solve our defensive problems by giving us a defensive weapon. That would just force us to use the new weapon, killing build diversity. Sneaking defensive options onto existing weapons in addition to adding a new defense weapon, a bunch of defensive traits, and a defensive utility or two would be a good way to increase our defense without locking us into one build.

Blaine Tog.8304:

With respect to the Necro, I don’t want them to give us a weapon with a block that sucks for everything else, whether it’s a mainhand weapon with a useless autoattack or an offhand weapon as lopsided as the Mesmer Torch (everyone agrees that The Prestige is awesome, but Phantasmal Mage is so bad it makes the weapon unusable).

Well with how the latest mesmer nerfs and buffs are going, torch is kinda usable in situations where you need the stronger shatters when combined with scepter. Its kinda like the axe offhand mainhand in the respect of build power vs individual skills it has.

As for the defensive thing, WE BLOODY HAVE/had A DEFENSIVE WEAPON, its called Death Shroud, problem is all traits related to DS as a defensive tool were thrown around the trait lines/nerfed.
We got: Spite -axe focus signets burst, Curses - scepter warhorn corruption conditions, DM - Minions staff/two hander fight management/support, Blood - dagger Life siphon (i kinda count it as its own weapon since it works on all sets) sustain/healing allies and finally SR - its only based on offensive power use of DS, with some remains of useful tank skills being dropped into spectrals, moved to other lines or nerfed to FitG/Shade comparisons, its kinda clear that SR really needs a good split of offensive and defensive traits, not stuff that is 99% useless like 25% faster movement in DS (which wouldnt be a problem if signets werent bugged with transformations),Vital Persistence (fact, builds that would get it already have enough LF generation) or traits that belong into other lines *im looking at you mark of revival and MoT*

Blaine Tog.8304:

With respect to the Necro, I don’t want them to give us a weapon with a block that sucks for everything else, whether it’s a mainhand weapon with a useless autoattack or an offhand weapon as lopsided as the Mesmer Torch (everyone agrees that The Prestige is awesome, but Phantasmal Mage is so bad it makes the weapon unusable).

EDIT: I also don’t want to see Anet try to solve our defensive problems by giving us a defensive weapon. That would just force us to use the new weapon, killing build diversity. Sneaking defensive options onto existing weapons in addition to adding a new defense weapon, a bunch of defensive traits, and a defensive utility or two would be a good way to increase our defense without locking us into one build.

I don’t want them taking the easy way out either and slapping on some defensive boons or giving a gimmicky defensive mechanic to a weapon. I want them to fix our death shroud and the other skills they tout as ’defensive" that we have, but are really just space fillers.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I don’t want them taking the easy way out either and slapping on some defensive boons or giving a gimmicky defensive mechanic to a weapon. I want them to fix our death shroud and the other skills they tout as ’defensive" that we have, but are really just space fillers.

this

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I don’t want them taking the easy way out either and slapping on some defensive boons or giving a gimmicky defensive mechanic to a weapon. I want them to fix our death shroud and the other skills they tout as ’defensive" that we have, but are really just space fillers.

I agree entirely. And honestly, I think the Death Shroud that we used to have, offered a far better kind of game play than we would get if they just slapped Aegis on top of DS.

It used to be fun and effective. They need to make it fun and effective again… and also fix a lot of those filler skills.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Blaine Tog.8304:

With respect to the Necro, I don’t want them to give us a weapon with a block that sucks for everything else, whether it’s a mainhand weapon with a useless autoattack or an offhand weapon as lopsided as the Mesmer Torch (everyone agrees that The Prestige is awesome, but Phantasmal Mage is so bad it makes the weapon unusable).

EDIT: I also don’t want to see Anet try to solve our defensive problems by giving us a defensive weapon. That would just force us to use the new weapon, killing build diversity. Sneaking defensive options onto existing weapons in addition to adding a new defense weapon, a bunch of defensive traits, and a defensive utility or two would be a good way to increase our defense without locking us into one build.

I don’t want them taking the easy way out either and slapping on some defensive boons or giving a gimmicky defensive mechanic to a weapon. I want them to fix our death shroud and the other skills they tout as ’defensive" that we have, but are really just space fillers.

I think we’re in agreement. DS needs a few baseline tweaks, and we also need the ability to trait to make it better for tanking rather than just a better weapon. I also think we need other defensive options on top of that. We need more places to showcase our defensive skill, as well as have the opportunity to spec for meaningful defense. If DS is used as our only defense and it’s the same on every Necro, then it becomes difficult for us to have a true damage<—→defense spectrum. Our glass builds will be too tanky to be allowed to deal epic damage and our tanky builds will have too much damage to be allowed to be epically tanky.

Blaine Tog.8304:

. If DS is used as our only defense and it’s the same on every Necro, then it becomes difficult for us to have a true damage<—->defense spectrum. Our glass builds will be too tanky to be allowed to deal epic damage and our tanky builds will have too much damage to be allowed to be epically tanky.

How about doing the same to DS what full glass cannons do to actual hp of any profession, make it be worthless and fall to 0 when looked at the wrong way, so only people with actual defensive stats can use a efficient tnaky ds (carrion, rabid, knight, celestial, soldier ,etc)

Andele.1306:

Blaine Tog.8304:

. If DS is used as our only defense and it’s the same on every Necro, then it becomes difficult for us to have a true damage<—->defense spectrum. Our glass builds will be too tanky to be allowed to deal epic damage and our tanky builds will have too much damage to be allowed to be epically tanky.

How about doing the same to DS what full glass cannons do to actual hp of any profession, make it be worthless and fall to 0 when looked at the wrong way, so only people with actual defensive stats can use a efficient tnaky ds (carrion, rabid, knight, celestial, soldier ,etc)

I’m sorry, but what?

Blaine Tog.8304:

]I’m sorry, but what?

Make DS change depending on build, you cannot have defense if you go full offense, you cannot have 5k crit auto attacks if you go full defense (what i currently have on fights that dont require stability with no crit damage and no crit chance on gear), middle of the line doesnt get anything special, but wouldnt have a glaring weakness.
For short DS usage should adapt to playstyle like ele attunements based on weapon, stats and traits (with that i dont mean make it attunements or as felxible, just more like how earth attunement can either be a bleed/condition or a tank/stability/cc )

Leave DS the way it is, it shows who is good at playing necro and who is a scrub that never bothered to learn their class and choose to absorb absurd amounts of damage as an exploit

Stenia.9623:

Leave DS the way it is, it shows who is good at playing necro and who is a scrub that never bothered to learn their class and choose to absorb absurd amounts of damage as an exploit

The real exploit here, is the one-hit kill attacks. Every class has a means to dealing with it, except the necromancer. The fact that we could absorb these kind of attacks with DS before, was intentional. And that intention was good. Now they’ve introduced a balance issue. And I for one am sick and tired of being the only class that constantly has to make up for imbalances by extraordinary skill. And that goes for many players that play a necromancer: We counter the inherit imbalances by adapting, and being better players. Yet this never the less does not validate the existence of these balance issues. And to think people in PVP have the nerve to say the necro is overpowered. We’re not overpowered, we’ve just learned to play our broken class better.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The real exploit here, is the one-hit kill attacks. Every class has a means to dealing with it, except the necromancer. The fact that we could absorb these kind of attacks with DS before, was intentional. And that intention was good. Now they’ve introduced a balance issue. And I for one am sick and tired of being the only class that constantly has to make up for imbalances by extraordinary skill. And that goes for many players that play a necromancer: We counter the inherit imbalances by adapting, and being better players. Yet this never the less does not validate the existence of these balance issues. And to think people in PVP have the nerve to say the necro is overpowered. We’re not overpowered, we’ve just learned to play our broken class better.

I see that you played a shadowpriest and shammy in wow (cough http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoJJOrR4wj8).

If we had the old DS, Liadri would have been way easier :P