Guild Wars 2

Why is it mark of evasion is on a 10 second CD? (Isn’t it 10? or there abouts?)
Just watched a thief video, and noticed the dodge caltrops can trigger on each and every dodge, I mean, that’s a lot of ae bleed spots that last for quite a while.
I know you’re not supposed to compare classes like this, but I’m seriously just wondering what the reasoning is behind the CD on mark of evasion, since necro is already the least mobile and dodgeable class out there.

Anyone else ever think about this?

Ye but they work differently,
Mark of Evasion applies 2 stacks (8 secs i think?) is affected by all the mark traits, meaning it can be greater mark size.
Caltrops trait is only 1 bleed + cripple (4 secs) and only 100 radius, lasting only 4 seconds instead of 10.

Unless the wiki is outdated, these should be the correct values.

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Evasion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable

>Apply one stack of bleeding for four seconds and crippled for four seconds, every second.

Although honestly if you’re going to complain about dodge traits, it’s the mesmer’s which is the strongest.

MoE has an ICD for (imo) not allowing us to “burst” too many bleeds at once. The difference is that the thief ability can just be moved out of (its tiny), whereas once MoE triggers, the full effect is on you.

A full bleed rotation, btw, assuming two MoEs and 1 Geomancy proc, would be 15 bleeds. When you combine that with other stuff that we have, the burst is just a bit too much, and this is an easy place to have a small cutback on.

I see your point, though the difference between other dodge abilities and ours just seems strange to me. In essence, a thief could dodge twice and have 2 of those fields up for spam bleeds, along with stealthing all day long.. in some way, I just can’t see the purpose of having an ICD.
Again, I see your point Bhawb, however, it’s two bleeds more, so in that respect, it’s not a whole lot tbh.

Its small things, honestly, that make the difference. By giving it an ICD they keep our ability to bleed burst (which was already a huge issue without the extra 2 bleeds) low, without needing to actually nerf a single ability we have.

I think the bigger concern was the quick double stacking (or triple with mark 2) of regen. That is quite a bit of regen in a short period of time.

Although personally I would prefer it do 3 stacks instead of 2. With the changes to GMarks, this trait is very hard to land now a days since it centers on you, and you really don’t want someone that close to you.

I for one got very used to the normal greater marks radius for this skill, since it matches weakening shround. But now…. it always just misses my target, and they they just ignore the mark for 5 seconds till it expires.

Just to note the “MoE has but Calts on dodge dont have cd because of burst” is bs, you stack 4-6 bleeds on a mob minimum (because just like real calts you get additional bleeds on movement inside the aoe), thus a Dodge-2-3-3-dodge-steal-3-3-dodge-2 rotation of a thief gives 25 stacks in around 4 seconds, 5 if you are bad at timing abilites and dodges.

That’s not how caltrops works.

Softspoken.2410:

That’s not how caltrops works.

Maybe you didnt expirience it/look out of it, but caltrops have the same wave/pulse stacking system as a lot of boss aoes and movement damage skills, so yeah pretty much every unstoppable mob you move trough uncatchable will have 6 bleeds if you time the movement.

Here a screenshot of it (since i got the 30% cond dur from deadly arts i managed to get a good shot of 5 bleeds at the same time on movement even if its a zerker)

Andele.1306:

(because just like real calts you get additional bleeds on movement inside the aoe)

That’s not how caltrops works

Late edit for future generations: caltrops pulse their bleed & cripple every second, applying to targets inside the AoE whether they are moving or standing still. Movement has absolutely no effect on its proc rate.

Softspoken.2410:

Andele.1306:

(because just like real calts you get additional bleeds on movement inside the aoe)

That’s not how caltrops works

That is how pulsing skills work, reason why you get high numbers with warrior whirlwind, ele burning speed and some aoes like caltrops. IS a bug, but can be abused if you get the conditions right.

While we’re on the subject, how great would it be if this trait didn’t trigger when you were out of combat? I would love this on some builds, except it totally ruins the tactic of dodging mob attacks to keep OOC speed.

Well, as for the bleed bursting I can’t really say if I agree or not, but compare it to the mesmer then, they can put up so many clones and shatter in a very short while, which is helped by dodge clones. Again, this is ofc different, I’m just saying there’s a clear difference between how other classes can spam dodge abilities, and necromancers can’t.
While it may be true that we can bleed burst, the other classes are also assisted by their dodge abilities, so why only limit us? If we hold true that we shouldn’t be able to bleed burst, okay, but shouldn’t this be the general consensus then? To add ICD’s to every class? The point is not, whether or not the thief calthrops have a small ae or not, but shouldn’t there be some kind of general guide line that follows through on certain abilities?

Or am I totally in the crazy zone here?

Dietzen that may help decrease the amount of AOE spam and AI clutter in sPvP and would be a good topic for another sub-forum. Whether the other traits warrant an ICD like this one i cant comment on, but i think some Mesmers might rage at u :P

Dietzen.6127:

Well, as for the bleed bursting I can’t really say if I agree or not, but compare it to the mesmer then, they can put up so many clones and shatter in a very short while, which is helped by dodge clones. Again, this is ofc different, I’m just saying there’s a clear difference between how other classes can spam dodge abilities, and necromancers can’t.
While it may be true that we can bleed burst, the other classes are also assisted by their dodge abilities, so why only limit us? If we hold true that we shouldn’t be able to bleed burst, okay, but shouldn’t this be the general consensus then? To add ICD’s to every class? The point is not, whether or not the thief calthrops have a small ae or not, but shouldn’t there be some kind of general guide line that follows through on certain abilities?

Or am I totally in the crazy zone here?

I am pretty sure that based on my limited mesmer knowledge, they would riot and tear down the ANET building if you put an ICD on dodge roll clones. Not to say it isn’t fair, but that is what would happen.

STOP comparing bleed bursts to other classes. Not a single person in the game cares if you can stack 25 bleeds on someone, not a single person. It is stacking high bleeds, plus burning, plus poison, plus weakness, plus cripple, plus chill, and then fearing them so they are forced to eat massive DPS or blow a stun breaker and large cleansing to get it off, and you are already guaranteed to have done some damage even if they do react. That is a lot of damage being dealt to you, and the entire burst is back up again in 20 seconds, or you could just do a slightly smaller version of the burst by the time the first is wearing off. That is without Mark of Evasion as well.

Thieves can’t do that, no one else can do that, and that is why we are currently the king of condition spam.

Bhawb. I am NOT comparing bleed bursts. I bring it up, as some replied with that particular reasoning.
My point and argument throughout the post has solely been there are inconsistencies between the dodge abilities! Nothing more.
I might be able to kill with condis, but a zerker mesmer, has a 12 second rotation where he can 100 —> 0 you, just with the illusary leap and so forth, and is assisted by his dodgeable clones and shatter. But this is still not my point.
Why the difference? Why are some dodge traits on a CD where others are not?

Balance. /15char

Bhawb.7408:

Balance. /15char

That is a bad answer IMO. The skill effects should be consistent first and foremost. Once you have that in place, if 2 bleeds and the regen is too much, you can scale it back. Reduce the regen, or reduce the duration of the bleed.

Balance should happen once everyone is on a level playing field. This was my huge gripe about melandru runes, until they went in and fixed those. This is my HUGE gripe about fear not causing an interrupt. It just isnt CONSISTENT, for seemingly no reason.

Until they reach a point where everything is consistent, and then they balance around those, they are going to be playing whackamole with Spvp.

I should know that any dodge mechanic is without ICD, not some do and some don’t for “balance” purposes. Since they have never stated that is the reason for the ICD, it is all speculation either way.

As you said, frankly two more bleeds doesn’t make a hill of beans difference when I can stack 13-15, and everything else so quickly anyhow.

Balance is a great reason to have an ICD. It is not that difficult to learn “hey, some dodge abilities have an ICD, some don’t”, it should just be well documented by tooltips when they have an ICD.

And yes, two bleeds does matter. That is 1200+ damage that they can take off of a bleed burst without making the skill that bursts absolutely useless in every other situation. As it stands now, Mark of Evasion is still a fine trait, it just can’t be used to burst more bleeds, if it could burst bleeds, it would need to be reduced in strength, making its offensive uses useless except to burst bleeds.

I don’t think dodge traits state anywhere why they have icd’s and some don’t I think many assume its balance which in many cases makes sense.

Evasive arcana has a 10 sec icd in what ever attunement your last spell was cast if it didn’t I could run sigil of energy with perma vigor and dodge roll heal to full all day long people complain about ele’s heals already that would be over the top. I think it use to not have a icd but I didn’t play ele back then.

The caltrops are kind of a meh trait and I think the cripple is probably more useful than the bleed right now as not many thieves run P/D condi anymore and those that do take any of the other traits usually over it. I think damage thieves take it just for kiting.

I know weakening shroud has a 10 sec icd I found this out last night with close to death trait on.

From my nooby necro perspective I think mark of evasion has the icd because of the potential with greater marks. Now that Greater Marks is a master trait they could bring the icd down I feel or get rid of it all together which would make both traits even more attractive.

In this case I don’t think the regen would be over the top if you kept stacking it but the bleed could be pretty strong if it didn’t have a icd but I think a 5 sec icd is fair now. Its not like necros have perma vigor anywhere.

Shroud has 15s ICD, btw.

Bhawb.7408:

Shroud has 15s ICD, btw.

Is it 15s thought it was 10 just from messing around with it in WvW last night. Didn’t actually look at the wiki. Thanks for clarification.

oZii.2864:

I don’t think dodge traits state anywhere why they have icd’s and some don’t I think many assume its balance which in many cases makes sense.

Evasive arcana has a 10 sec icd in what ever attunement your last spell was cast if it didn’t I could run sigil of energy with perma vigor and dodge roll heal to full all day long people complain about ele’s heals already that would be over the top. I think it use to not have a icd but I didn’t play ele back then.

The caltrops are kind of a meh trait and I think the cripple is probably more useful than the bleed right now as not many thieves run P/D condi anymore and those that do take any of the other traits usually over it. I think damage thieves take it just for kiting.

I know weakening shroud has a 10 sec icd I found this out last night with close to death trait on.

From my nooby necro perspective I think mark of evasion has the icd because of the potential with greater marks. Now that Greater Marks is a master trait they could bring the icd down I feel or get rid of it all together which would make both traits even more attractive.

In this case I don’t think the regen would be over the top if you kept stacking it but the bleed could be pretty strong if it didn’t have a icd but I think a 5 sec icd is fair now. Its not like necros have perma vigor anywhere.

Difference is EA has a conditional cooldown, you can just swap between attunements (what you are doing either way) and as such the cooldown is removed.
Also again if their gripe was balance, why do many other on dodge skills have stronger effects for less/the same investment. As metioned above the clone on dodge trait is just as core for a mesmer as the shatter on self is, but on a necro MoE is mostly a additional proc of regen, no you wouldnt use dodges to place it, nor would you dodge into the melee range required to proc it on any condition build because it would be plain suicide, so bleeed stacking is out of question.
A lot of traits plain need fixing, that includes on dodge ones (that includes the thieves endurance back on dodge that i was kitten ing around with later yesterday to see i you could get max stacks without condition duration and guess what it has a “cast time” so it doesnt return endurance if you dodge twice in a row).

And another thing, Ren is 100% correct about the consistency thing, if you give a set amount of rules to one profession, you cannot bend them for another just because they can do bullkitten with it, you make a point to counterbalance it (e.g. make a generic skill for a control tank a high risk skill for a glass cannon or reverse, just how lich is quite risky to use on a tanky char since you cannot heal back up the damage delt without ending it early). Only thin that it doesnt apply to is playstyle effect of different classes (even if it is bullkitten sometimes).

MoE could easily be used to burst, the thing of “not going into melee” is completely off-point. Almost every Necro in PvP uses Geomancy sigils already, Mark of Evasion is not much closer, and you always want to finish your condi bursts with a fear to force their CDs (meaning your target will move themselves out of melee range).

Andele.1306:

Difference is EA has a conditional cooldown, you can just swap between attunements (what you are doing either way) and as such the cooldown is removed.
Also again if their gripe was balance, why do many other on dodge skills have stronger effects for less/the same investment. As metioned above the clone on dodge trait is just as core for a mesmer as the shatter on self is, but on a necro MoE is mostly a additional proc of regen, no you wouldnt use dodges to place it, nor would you dodge into the melee range required to proc it on any condition build because it would be plain suicide, so bleeed stacking is out of question.
A lot of traits plain need fixing, that includes on dodge ones (that includes the thieves endurance back on dodge that i was kitten ing around with later yesterday to see i you could get max stacks without condition duration and guess what it has a “cast time” so it doesnt return endurance if you dodge twice in a row).

And another thing, Ren is 100% correct about the consistency thing, if you give a set amount of rules to one profession, you cannot bend them for another just because they can do bullkitten with it, you make a point to counterbalance it (e.g. make a generic skill for a control tank a high risk skill for a glass cannon or reverse, just how lich is quite risky to use on a tanky char since you cannot heal back up the damage delt without ending it early). Only thin that it doesnt apply to is playstyle effect of different classes (even if it is bullkitten sometimes).

Right which is why I said it could possibly have no icd or a 5 sec icd would be fair. I wasn’t comparing the 2 skills directly just saying that EA is balanced different and it is a dodge trait. Just because a trait is a on dodge trait they shouldn’t all be balanced with the same icd’s some are way better than others was the point I was making. I am assuming they took greater marks trait into consideration when they balanced it. Now that GM is a master trait it probably should have a change with a lower or no icd.

I believe the reasoning for EA was because its "OP"ness revolved 100% around Water. No one used it for air/earth/fire dodges, they’d specifically use it for water dodges because the mass healing and cleansing was so much more wanted than what else they could use it for. (PvP, I don’t think EA is too strong in any other game mode).