Guild Wars 2

I joined after the “dhuumfire days” and I just had a couple questions to ask people who played during it.
Which traits/skills were nerfed to compensate for the power of dhuumfire builds? and how were they nerfed? Also, is there any good reason why they are not reverted by now? ._.

I’ve also been wondering, if the dhuumfire trait was such a huge problem and horribly OP, why are engineers allowed to have a trait that literally does the same exact thing and isn’t even in a grandmaster slot??

Engi has weak pistol AA and necro has the green meat bag… No reverts were made Mark of Blood and Grasping Dead took a hit, I noticed those the most that’s the reason I run two condition sigils and never go in Spite in PvP we build conditions slowly. More probably happen tough that I didn’t notice much.

The recent condition tick change allowed me to forget about Master of Terror in PvP and kind of help terror since it works differently, stab change helped with Plague I guess we just adapted. I only run burst condition necro in wvw perplexity+dhuumfire. Again the green meat bag, the devs need to know we sacrificed miserable sustain for that burst but nah the green meat bag got in the way same reason siphon sucks poorly.

I personally hope that they also gate IP behind tool belt skills for engineers.

Corrupt boon was taken from a full boon conversion to converting only 5 boons. Mark of blood and grasping dead both lost one bleed stack in PVP (wvw and PVE still have the normal numbers), and putrid mark used to transfer all conditions – I think, it’s been awhile – and also transfer conditions from allies in the Mark to enemies in the mark. That was nerfed a few times. Spectral skills were also buffed at the same time we got dhuumfire, but they were nerfed to have an ICD on life force gain. I believe Mark of evasion was also nerfed.

Oh and I forgot terror, which does 10% less damage now, and is now a master trait, but used to be only adept.

Death Shroud blocking overflow damage was nerfed as well shortly after Dhuumfire was added iirc. I’m also reasonably sure Signet of Spite lost a bleed too.

I do not mind the various nerf and buffs and Necromancer has become a lot more viable over the years but the shift away from condition damage bugs me, somewhat.

Necromancer might as well be heavy armor, now. We have plenty of conditions but not that impressive condition damage outside of scepter.

Dhuumfire is better now mind you it shouldn’t be a Grandmaster trait. You can control your burst which I would consider better and requires more skill to use. Before, it applied on crit with a short ICD which people apparently considered “too OP” meanwhile now we have Engineer’s that can apply literally every single condition besides fear in like 3 seconds.

I’m not upset that Dhuumfire was changed as personally I like the change. I just think that since it’s essentially the same trait as an Engineer’s it should also be a Master trait.

Didn’t enfeeble trait get nerfed hard too

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Dhuumfire is better now mind you it shouldn’t be a Grandmaster trait. You can control your burst which I would consider better and requires more skill to use. Before, it applied on crit with a short ICD which people apparently considered “too OP” meanwhile now we have Engineer’s that can apply literally every single condition besides fear in like 3 seconds.

I’m not upset that Dhuumfire was changed as personally I like the change. I just think that since it’s essentially the same trait as an Engineer’s it should also be a Master trait.

I’m just not fine with it being linked to Life Blast, going into Spite just to get it felt unworthy after even with CoD , Signet mastery wasn’t worth it anymore either. We could make up for low LF gain with high condition burst but they gutted it with no tradeoffs. It does feel like they favor other classes engi has great access to confusion which is more dangerous than terror if it wasn’t for the boons condi or cele engi would win over condition necro.

I didn’t switch to WoP for the group aspect , it was a safe conversion so I can keep attacking same reason I went from SoS to S. Wall, necro is just way too slow at condition damage just wow. I hate the idea behind DS so much would prefer F1-F5 skills and rework of LF, I love necro but DS just annoys the kitten out of me.

Sabre.8627:

Which traits/skills were nerfed to compensate for the power of dhuumfire builds? and how were they nerfed? Also, is there any good reason why they are not reverted by now? ._.

Terror was nerfed – moved from adept to master trait, fear dmg reduced
Weaking shround – nerfed almost to oblivion – (it was OP before but nerf was too big) shorter bleed/ removed stack of bleed/ much shorter weakness
Mark of Blood – removed bleed stack
Grasping dead – removed bleed stack

These changes were made because of dhuumfire and tainted shackles.
Now when is dhuumfire gone they should revert alteast some of these, but we need wait because ArenaNet balance department(if exists) need some months, maybe years to reallize this.

Don’t forget being able to instantly reenter ds if you let it run out of deathshroud naturally rather than ending it. also I know it’s supposedly a bug but I’d really like my ds skills to continue if I get knocked out of ds again….

Also about the reverting stuff, they won’t give us anything back, but if they did at least give us the kittening bleed stacks back, not like the matter that much.

Weakening Shroud was not nerfed as a result of Dhuumfire. Terror, Mark of Blood/Evasion, Grasping Dead all were though. I forget if Corrupt Boon was also nerfed along with this?

Mostly we lost a bit of bleed bursting, definitely a noticeable amount.

As for why? With Dhuumfire, Necromancers moved from relatively mediocre unless played by an extremely skilled player into absolutely mandatory on every single team. Our AA alone would bleed, poison, and burn you, it was to the point where Necromancers were forcing condition cleanses from bunker guardians simply by auto attacking. It was absolutely, undeniably OP in a way that Engineer could never hope to match, and multiple people on the alpha servers told ANet not to release it because of how OP it was.

necrofail.7439:

Don’t forget being able to instantly reenter ds if you let it run out of deathshroud naturally rather than ending it. also I know it’s supposedly a bug but I’d really like my ds skills to continue if I get knocked out of ds again….

This was 100% unrelated to dhuumfire.

Bhawb.7408:

I forget if Corrupt Boon was also nerfed along with this?

yes, it was nerfed few months after dhuumfire release.

5 boons is OK for me, but i dont get why stability have lowest priority

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Dhuumfire is better now mind you it shouldn’t be a Grandmaster trait. You can control your burst which I would consider better and requires more skill to use. Before, it applied on crit with a short ICD which people apparently considered “too OP” meanwhile now we have Engineer’s that can apply literally every single condition besides fear in like 3 seconds.

I’m not upset that Dhuumfire was changed as personally I like the change. I just think that since it’s essentially the same trait as an Engineer’s it should also be a Master trait.

That’s another thing.. I saw the patch notes and their reason for the dhuumfire change was because “it doesn’t promote skillful gameplay” since it’s on crit and random proc I guess? But I guess somehow it’s more skillful when an engineer does the exact same thing, dat logic..

And almost forget on huge Putrid Mark nerf – our only playable support skill for party – before it transfers ALL condi from caster AND ALLIES in mark radius.

Bhawb.7408:

Weakening Shroud was not nerfed as a result of Dhuumfire. Terror, Mark of Blood/Evasion, Grasping Dead all were though. I forget if Corrupt Boon was also nerfed along with this?

Mostly we lost a bit of bleed bursting, definitely a noticeable amount.

As for why? With Dhuumfire, Necromancers moved from relatively mediocre unless played by an extremely skilled player into absolutely mandatory on every single team. Our AA alone would bleed, poison, and burn you, it was to the point where Necromancers were forcing condition cleanses from bunker guardians simply by auto attacking. It was absolutely, undeniably OP in a way that Engineer could never hope to match, and multiple people on the alpha servers told ANet not to release it because of how OP it was.

necrofail.7439:

Don’t forget being able to instantly reenter ds if you let it run out of deathshroud naturally rather than ending it. also I know it’s supposedly a bug but I’d really like my ds skills to continue if I get knocked out of ds again….

This was 100% unrelated to dhuumfire.

I know, but others mentioned some things that weren’t figured I’d tell the new guy these things.

Tristan.7430:

yes, it was nerfed few months after dhuumfire release.

5 boons is OK for me, but i dont get why stability have lowest priority

Stability isn’t quite lowest, it is 6th or 7th I believe. Still way too low.

Tristan.7430:

And almost forget on huge Putrid Mark nerf – our only playable support skill for party – before it transfers ALL condi from caster AND ALLIES in mark radius.

Was this during the same time? Its been so long I don’t remember, I feel like Putrid Mark was nerfed before Dhuumfire but we didn’t figure it out until during the Dhuumfire nerfs because that is when marks were bugging.

Its rather funny how most people think that the dhuumfire change was a nerf! I really wonder if people have actually tried it out or just concluded that the new version is worse! The burn duration was increased and the ability to pick and choose outweighs the random proc (aoe made it even worse) by far.

Not only that but lifeblast also does decent damage on a 6/4/0/0/4 carrion build. I would take dhuumfire and condition duration over POC everytime.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Its rather funny how most people think that the dhuumfire change was a nerf! I really wonder if people have actually tried it out or just concluded that the new version is worse! The burn duration was increased and the ability to pick and choose outweighs the random proc (aoe made it even worse) by far.

Not only that but lifeblast also does decent damage on a 6/4/0/0/4 carrion build. I would take dhuumfire and condition duration over POC everytime.

I am not sure where the carrion necro started but it is definitely inferior to a rabid one , carrion goes well with classes that have good damage mitigation like thief or guard but not warrior or ranger. The DS argument with vitality…really?! It’s called dhuumfire nerf because it didn’t come alone and you should always pick PoC on condition necro.

Sagat.3285:

djooceboxblast.9876:

Its rather funny how most people think that the dhuumfire change was a nerf! I really wonder if people have actually tried it out or just concluded that the new version is worse! The burn duration was increased and the ability to pick and choose outweighs the random proc (aoe made it even worse) by far.

Not only that but lifeblast also does decent damage on a 6/4/0/0/4 carrion build. I would take dhuumfire and condition duration over POC everytime.

I am not sure where the carrion necro started but it is definitely inferior to a rabid one , carrion goes well with classes that have good damage mitigation like thief or guard but not warrior or ranger. The DS argument with vitality…really?! It’s called dhuumfire nerf because it didn’t come alone and you should always pick PoC on condition necro.

Incorrect!

Sagat.3285:

djooceboxblast.9876:

Its rather funny how most people think that the dhuumfire change was a nerf! I really wonder if people have actually tried it out or just concluded that the new version is worse! The burn duration was increased and the ability to pick and choose outweighs the random proc (aoe made it even worse) by far.

Not only that but lifeblast also does decent damage on a 6/4/0/0/4 carrion build. I would take dhuumfire and condition duration over POC everytime.

I am not sure where the carrion necro started but it is definitely inferior to a rabid one , carrion goes well with classes that have good damage mitigation like thief or guard but not warrior or ranger. The DS argument with vitality…really?! It’s called dhuumfire nerf because it didn’t come alone and you should always pick PoC on condition necro.

The opposite argument is that rabid tends to be best for classes that have other sources of healing. It really shines when you can recover more hit points that are worth more because of the toughness. Since necro can’t do that either, the toughness isn’t as valuable. So neither really works well, so we may as well work with the one defense we have which improves with vitality.

Plus, the damage is very comparable between the two, hence, carrion.

I believe the putrid mark changes started coming around the same time as dhuumfire. They added torment and burning to us at the same time, realized they overdid it, and instead of starting with the most obvious problem, they hit everything else we had, effectively forcing us into the dhuumfire build to maintain damage. Then they eventually nerfed that too.

I find it to be a large nerf because it’s gated behind having life force, and life blast doesn’t always land. It’s easy to dodge and the cast can be negated just by running through you which most good players know. You can’t fire it behind you or use when you are kiting – it requires having an advantage at all to even use, in my opinion. That’s why its a nerf. Control is nice, it’s nice for wvw, I think, but for pvp it isn’t even at all useful, to me.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Its rather funny how most people think that the dhuumfire change was a nerf! I really wonder if people have actually tried it out or just concluded that the new version is worse! The burn duration was increased and the ability to pick and choose outweighs the random proc (aoe made it even worse) by far.

Not only that but lifeblast also does decent damage on a 6/4/0/0/4 carrion build. I would take dhuumfire and condition duration over POC everytime.

I am also a fan of that build but I still think the old one was better having dhuumfire proc with scepter autos let me save my ds for when I really needed that interupt or a little sponge in case I got bursted. Now it’s like they want to force you to use doom or have enough lifeforce to wait out tainted shackles to hit them with it when they are immobilized. Plus I always liked when dhuum would proc on the third hit of scepter.

I agree with djooce, Dhumfire on Life Blast was a buff, not just because of the longer duration but because you actually have controll over when it triggers.
Plus, eliminating passives is healthy for the game, it raises the skill ceiling while allowing counter play. So this change was a win/win in every way.

Sagat.3285:

I am not sure where the carrion necro started but it is definitely inferior to a rabid one…
The DS argument with vitality…really?!

Oh man, this has to be the oldest topic on the necro forum. And I’ll tell you when it started: when the game was released. Even when our lf regen was a lot worse and our lf pool was smaller we could still make better use of vitality than toughness.
Also, the current celestial meta is so condition heavy that you’re probably getting more effective hp out of carrion after healing 5 times without using DS at all. And yes, the “DS argument with vitality”… life force is the one resource we can generate rather well and it scales linear with vitality, so once you add that there’s absolutely no contest.

flow.6043:

I agree with djooce, Dhumfire on Life Blast was a buff, not just because of the longer duration but because you actually have controll over when it triggers.
Plus, eliminating passives is healthy for the game, it raises the skill ceiling while allowing counter play. So this change was a win/win in every way.

Sagat.3285:

I am not sure where the carrion necro started but it is definitely inferior to a rabid one…
The DS argument with vitality…really?!

Oh man, this has to be the oldest topic on the necro forum. And I’ll tell you when it started: when the game was released. Even when our lf regen was a lot worse and our lf pool was smaller we could still make better use of vitality than toughness.
Also, the current celestial meta is so condition heavy that you’re probably getting more effective hp out of carrion after healing 5 times without using DS at all. And yes, the “DS argument with vitality”… life force is the one resource we can generate rather well and it scales linear with vitality, so once you add that there’s absolutely no contest.

I think this is the first time someone agrees with me on dhuumfire – wow! But yes, Sagat, Flow kindly explained why carrion is a better option than rabid.

I’m pretty sure shroud also scales with toughness. I didn’t until I noticed the new minor trait that improves toughness while in shroud so it wouldn’t be impossible for that to be the case. Well someone can easily test it, go full knights and see if you take the same amount of damage from a skill in and out of shroud.

Zetsumei.4975:

I’m pretty sure shroud also scales with toughness. I didn’t until I noticed the new minor trait that improves toughness while in shroud so it wouldn’t be impossible for that to be the case. Well someone can easily test it, go full knights and see if you take the same amount of damage from a skill in and out of shroud.

It does scale with toughness! But then again toughness is for many reasons not that great on necro, one of them being low self sustain due to the lack of heals/blocks/invulnerability etc.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Its rather funny how most people think that the dhuumfire change was a nerf! I really wonder if people have actually tried it out or just concluded that the new version is worse! The burn duration was increased and the ability to pick and choose outweighs the random proc (aoe made it even worse) by far.

Not only that but lifeblast also does decent damage on a 6/4/0/0/4 carrion build. I would take dhuumfire and condition duration over POC everytime.

The change to Dhuumfire did make it more difficult to work into a rotation, but I agree it wasn’t really a nerf.

However, it wasn’t really a buff either. Even so, the nerfs we got because of Dhuumfire have yet to be looked at.

Condition necros work well against other condition builds, but that is only because of transfers. Against anyone else, condition necro is one of the weakest condition builds.

Zetsumei.4975:

I’m pretty sure shroud also scales with toughness. I didn’t until I noticed the new minor trait that improves toughness while in shroud so it wouldn’t be impossible for that to be the case. Well someone can easily test it, go full knights and see if you take the same amount of damage from a skill in and out of shroud.

Yes, toughness always worked in DS. However, according to some math we did a while ago, once you have Armored Shroud your effective life force pool against direct damage is higher with carrion than rabid. So a single point in Death Magic in enough to make carrion have a tankier Shroud against all sources of damage.
If you decide to go carrion with 64004 your ehp is actually slightly below rabid and that traslates to DS as well, but you’ll always take condition damage in pvp matches so carrion still wins.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Zetsumei.4975:

I’m pretty sure shroud also scales with toughness. I didn’t until I noticed the new minor trait that improves toughness while in shroud so it wouldn’t be impossible for that to be the case. Well someone can easily test it, go full knights and see if you take the same amount of damage from a skill in and out of shroud.

It does scale with toughness! But then again toughness is for many reasons not that great on necro, one of them being low self sustain due to the lack of heals/blocks/invulnerability etc.

That’s the exact opposite, you take carrion if you have those because you can afford it. I tried carrion necro and my rabid ended being more effective. It may be a personal thing higher HP pool is not really a plus faster regain would be it’s seems to waste stats as well. That’s like going carrion on condition war… I remember that thread I take on action better than on paper, my MMR seems better I do fine in ranked all my matches are close win or lost.

In the vitality and toughness debate, I would like to point out there are workable corner conditions that can throw the balance one way or the other.

Consumables and runes can convert defensive stats to something offensive. For example, Shaman’s armor and Exuberance runes on a 64040 wells build is pretty strong for being such a bunker. Cleric’s armor grabs healing without vitality but, again, traiting Blood Magic for wells means the armor’s toughness stretches personal heal value. Rabid armor and a consumable to convert toughness can make a staff condition build durable for low opportunity cost.

Synergy and recycling defensive stats into offensive ones can serve niche purposes. You will never get max dps but can reduce the dps penalty for taking some defense. It all has to work together, though.

Tristan.7430:

Bhawb.7408:

I forget if Corrupt Boon was also nerfed along with this?

yes, it was nerfed few months after dhuumfire release.

5 boons is OK for me, but i dont get why stability have lowest priority

No. It was nerfed together with introducement of Dhuumfire, Shackles and other stuff. They also changed Spectral Wall and added dperception that patch.

Rym.1469:

Tristan.7430:

Bhawb.7408:

I forget if Corrupt Boon was also nerfed along with this?

yes, it was nerfed few months after dhuumfire release.

5 boons is OK for me, but i dont get why stability have lowest priority

No. It was nerfed together with introducement of Dhuumfire, Shackles and other stuff. They also changed Spectral Wall and added dperception that patch.

Yup. This.