Guild Wars 2

It was fun while it lasted. Good night.

Now each reaper can put 30 stacks of bleed on a target instead of all just increasing chill duration.
Plus skills that remove/reduce movement impairing skills wont effect the damage aspect of the trait.

Radu.1693:

Now each reaper can put 30 stacks of bleed on a target instead of all just increasing chill duration.
Plus skills that remove/reduce movement impairing skills wont effect the damage aspect of the trait.

It’s not worth it, we have infinite sources of bleed already, must as well pick up Dhuumfire.

Radu.1693:

Now each reaper can put 30 stacks of bleed on a target instead of all just increasing chill duration.

Now all we need is one condition cleared to negate most of our damage. one step forward three steps back.

Plus skills that remove/reduce movement impairing skills wont effect the damage aspect of the trait.

Never did really matter in the pasr since reaper stacked chill above 100%.

Tim.6450:

Radu.1693:

Now each reaper can put 30 stacks of bleed on a target instead of all just increasing chill duration.

Now all we need is one condition cleared to negate most of our damage. one step forward three steps back.

You have a valid point about the damage becoming more concentrated in bleeds. On the plus side now every single time you apply chill you now apply two condis, making it that much easier to makes it easier to bury condis. Additionally , in situations where you have multiple reapers their damage will actually stack now.

Tim.6450:

Radu.1693:

Plus skills that remove/reduce movement impairing skills wont effect the damage aspect of the trait.

Never did really matter in the pasr since reaper stacked chill above 100%.

Sure it did. Just one example:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposting_Shadows
Now the skill will be able to remove the chill but will still have the bleeds applied, instead of just cleansing everything.

Radu.1693:

Tim.6450:

Radu.1693:

Now each reaper can put 30 stacks of bleed on a target instead of all just increasing chill duration.

Now all we need is one condition cleared to negate most of our damage. one step forward three steps back.

You have a valid point about the damage becoming more concentrated in bleeds. On the plus side now every single time you apply chill you now apply two condis, making it that much easier to makes it easier to bury condis. Additionally , in situations where you have multiple reapers their damage will actually stack now.

However since you are scepter necro/staf (probably with curses) you already have bleed on your foe . So you don’t have any extra condi. Reaper stacking was never a thing higher lvl pvp (not high lvl pvp, just not low lvl pvp) since stacking reapers means that you can be easily out manouver them.

Radu.1693:

Tim.6450:

Radu.1693:

Plus skills that remove/reduce movement impairing skills wont effect the damage aspect of the trait.

Never did really matter in the pasr since reaper stacked chill above 100%.

Sure it did. Just one example:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposting_Shadows
Now the skill will be able to remove the chill but will still have the bleeds applied, instead of just cleansing everything.

I was actually talking about the duration matter.

Radu.1693:

You have a valid point about the damage becoming more concentrated in bleeds. On the plus side now every single time you apply chill you now apply two condis, making it that much easier to makes it easier to bury condis.

Covering conditions isn’t a thing, at least a significant number of removals are random, and any condi build already had both bleed and chill on the target. So the only time this matters is directly after conditions have been wiped, except at that point immediately applying a 600+ DPS condition is significantly better than applying two conditions, one of which applying the DPS of a slight breeze.

Tim.6450:

Radu.1693:

Tim.6450:

Radu.1693:

Now each reaper can put 30 stacks of bleed on a target instead of all just increasing chill duration.

Now all we need is one condition cleared to negate most of our damage. one step forward three steps back.

You have a valid point about the damage becoming more concentrated in bleeds. On the plus side now every single time you apply chill you now apply two condis, making it that much easier to makes it easier to bury condis. Additionally , in situations where you have multiple reapers their damage will actually stack now.

However since you are scepter necro/staf (probably with curses) you already have bleed on your foe . So you don’t have any extra condi. Reaper stacking was never a thing higher lvl pvp (not high lvl pvp, just not low lvl pvp) since stacking reapers means that you can be easily out manouver them.

Radu.1693:

Tim.6450:

Radu.1693:

Plus skills that remove/reduce movement impairing skills wont effect the damage aspect of the trait.

Never did really matter in the pasr since reaper stacked chill above 100%.

Sure it did. Just one example:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riposting_Shadows
Now the skill will be able to remove the chill but will still have the bleeds applied, instead of just cleansing everything.

I was actually talking about the duration matter.

Yes exactly! We already had bleed on them. It makes no difference! It really doesnt. Everyone thinks that you are stacking tons of bleed but theres less chill now, and bleed was already on everyone that a scepter necro fought always constantly, if you were any good at all.

Too bad bleed is super weak. This would be fine if a few stacks of bleed actually meant something.

Rather than quoting everyone individually.

@Bleed damage.
Its not the application of a single bleed that hurts, it is the intensity stacking factor. The trait has no ICD. Using reaper 4 in a chill field now applies tons of bleeds off the whirl finisher. I wouldn’t call 3.2k bleed ticks from one reaper a slight breeze.

@Cleansing:
The rev example I already provided I felt was the best example, since its a skill brought by nearly every rev and that rev is a popular class. But there are plenty of other things that specifically effected chill. Another example, brought by most thieves:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw

Of course if you try to blindly burst all your condis someone running with skills that cleanse everything your going to have a bad time. Now reaper 5 and 4 alone are enough to inflict significant pressure without also using staff 3 to generate a poison field.

@Necro stacking:
Talking more about matchmaking then intentional premade stacking. I played to legend, and a great majority of the time I was solo queue. Since last season necro was so popular it wasn’t uncommon to get stuck on a team with too many necros and people not willing/able to switch. It’s a terrible composition, but it still happened. The damage change just makes it a little more viable, and at lower skill levels that much more effective. Though, hopefully since everyone sees this as the death of chillmancer maybe people will migrate to a new class.

That statement targets pvp, but in pve with multiple necros the damage stacking aspect will also provide a benefit.

I don’t think this change kills the trait, just modifies the proper usage of it. Anyone who isn’t completely stuck in the idea that the trait is dead might want to play with it for a moment themselves. I guess I’ll try to let everyone else mourn in peace now.

Reapers can already do 3.2k bleed damage from a few scepter 1s and a scepter 2. so yes, 3.2k bleed ticks form 1 reaper can be sniffed at since it’s sh—. Second the reaper is all ABOUT chill. chill on crit, less dmg from chilled foes, and now we don’t have the one thing that made them unique to a water ele. We can apply chill, not much, we can’t damage with chill only bleed that does barely anything.

I keep seeing a lot of people who would rather lose both the damage component of the Deathly Chill trait and all the effectiveness of Chill — arguably the most powerful CC condition — in one single cleanse. This is a short-sighted assessment of this balance change.

This Deathly Chill rework means — among other things — that now you get to keep one or the other. In theory, the compromise is that the overall damage is reduced. In practice, however, the damage loss is being wildly exaggerated. Once you actually see how much Bleeding you stack against a Chilled target or during a team fight you’ll wonder why the anemic DPS from Deathly Chill ever impressed you.

Radu.1693:

Rather than quoting everyone individually.

@Bleed damage.
Its not the application of a single bleed that hurts, it is the intensity stacking factor. The trait has no ICD. Using reaper 4 in a chill field now applies tons of bleeds off the whirl finisher. I wouldn’t call 3.2k bleed ticks from one reaper a slight breeze.

They nerfed both the whirl finisher and ice field. And a 3.2k bleed tick (I’ll ignore how ridiculous that number is) requiring someone to stand in melee range after 3+ seconds of you doing things on top of requiring two huge CDs AND a trait invested isn’t exactly amazing. You will need what, at least 4 bleeds to get the same damage as pre-nerf? And you need to sustain those 4 bleeds, all from chill, the same amount of time as you maintained just ONE chill before.

There is no way this isn’t a nerf.

Hmm….

This is both good and bad. Well.. it’s bad… but I think there’s some wiggle room in making it good.

If you do Executioner’s Strike, the chilling field will also now apply AoE bleed. It won’t be nearly as strong as before, but while we’re in DS we’ll have access to bleeds, which we didn’t really have before… and I think this kinda opens up interesting possibilities. Soul Spiraling in Executioner Strike has the potential to apply AoE bleed. Also not as strong as before, but it’s not insignificant, imo. If you do a full combo with RS, you can apply like about 10 bleeds to a group, which is a lot stronger than Deathly Chill was before.

Out of shroud, the overall damage will be reduced. We’ll have less burst but I think we still have the potential to deal good damage over time since the bleeds are super long. The bleed will be decent against classes that have -chill duration traits and will be decent against Revenants and thieves. The bleeds will also always deal damage, even if the target already had a chill from another source, so Reaper stacking could become a thing.

From a cover condi point of view, if you take Path of Corruption and Chilling Darkness, your Death’s Charge will apply like… 5 condis (blind, chill, bleed, 2 corrupts)… and if you got Torment sigil, that’s 1 more possible condi. Or if you’re running Spite, each chill will apply 3 condis (Chill, Vuln, Bleed), which is pretty nice… but I agree that bleeds would already be on the target to begin with so a single cleanse could just wipe everything off.

So far it seems… alright, in my opinion.

I haven’t played in ages. But from a pvp standpoint this is huge as necro has only ever been good with a diverse amount of damaging conditions. So yeh, I dont know much about the game but this change is a HUGE nerf, probably more than any of you realise really. Also 1 stack of bleed is literally so insignificant

So, rune of the kait anyone?

Lexan.5930:

So, rune of the kait anyone?

YES!

I used to play Wanderer Amulet with Nightmare runes with Dhuumfire and Deathly Chill. Damage was insane but you were fairly squish.

I tried Mercenary Amulet with Krait runes today after the patch and tbh… the damage seemed just fine. It was like condi duration from Wanderer but tankyness of Mercenary.. on top of the 1050 power :^) Thieves weren’t as big of a problem anymore, revenants were a bit easier…
Need to test further but… I think there’s something there

Bhawb.7408:

And a 3.2k bleed tick (I’ll ignore how ridiculous that number is)

Sorry 3.4k, with only 6 might using wanderer’s.

And yes training dummies != players with stun breaks and condi cleanse, but just showing that I’m not pulling numbers completely out of my kitten .

Glad to see not everyone is viewing this so negatively, krait runes would probably get those ridiculous numbers even higher.

There hasto be a better way to nerf the chill instead of taking out its nice damage portion entirely. Make the Grandmaster node exchange some of the chills slowing power in exchange for the chill damage that already existed (we really don’t need more bleeding). Or find some other way to balance it rather than simply cutting out the fun of trying to focus chill. There are infinite ways to bleed on a necromancer and it takes out the grandeur of the node itself.

Radu.1693:

Sorry 3.4k, with only 6 might using wanderer’s.

You got all 30 stacks of bleeding using just that trait alone?

Bhawb.7408:

Radu.1693:

Sorry 3.4k, with only 6 might using wanderer’s.

You got all 30 stacks of bleeding using just that trait alone?

Doubtful, at best RS5→4 should be 11 stacks of bleeding (5 ticks and 6 whirls), 12-13 if you have sigils and other procs. If this is a contest of who can stack the highest condition numbers with full preparation, no movements and no cleanses, I don’t think that’s a contest Necromancer wants to join in on. x.X

They should change it from bleed to poison, and reduce the duration, and nerf the application to like once every 5 secs or so…poison isnt utilized enough and is a great counter to heal bots imo

all they should have done is base the damage and make it for it to not scale with condi damage

ronpierce.2760:

Bhawb.7408:

Radu.1693:

Sorry 3.4k, with only 6 might using wanderer’s.

You got all 30 stacks of bleeding using just that trait alone?

Doubtful, at best RS5->4 should be 11 stacks of bleeding (5 ticks and 6 whirls), 12-13 if you have sigils and other procs.

Yeah… I was thinking that too… He can also get 1 stack from infusing terror. I think it’s probably sigils and since he’s running wanderer, bleeds from crits?

Problem is, condi necro without chill dmg already works around stacking insane amounts of bleed. This mechanic is just redundant, I’ve been playing with/against necros and as long as you cleanse the bleeds necro will not do dmg at all. If it wasnt bleed, but smth else, like torment/poison, you can condiburst someone with 2 condis, which can be gucci.

I agree with the most, another bleed is pointless, should be Torment or Poison.
Also why the kitten did they nerfed Infuse Terror… this make no sense…

I was more concerned about the change to RS4 and 3 than losing the chill damage….it had to happen though

Still 1 stack of bleeding is insulting… kinda saying “here we intend to butcher this trait into oblivion and then spit in yo face”. The community did come up with nice suggestions on forum to nerf Deathly Chill and yet keep it relevant to a condimancer but it seems that went unheard.

The class is still quite usable but not meta worthy and you could even stand to trait out of Reaper back to the old S/C/Sr.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

I was more concerned about the change to RS4 and 3 than losing the chill damage….it had to happen though

Still 1 stack of bleeding is insulting… kinda saying “here we intend to butcher this trait into oblivion and then spit in yo face”.

How is that? As has been stated, there is no CD on this, and with the amount of chill application reaper has, you will have tons of bleed in no time. Any more stacks or duration would have made it more broken than it was. As it is now, you can stack this with Blood Bond for some nice synergy across trait lines.

I don’t understand the fixation with the Blood Bond synergy, because it’s a single trait in a line that is otherwise worthless to you as a Condi Necro. The problem is that even in a reasonable situation, such as after Chillblains, Chilling Nova, and Hydromancy, those 3 stacks of bleed are still a DPS loss of almost 70% as compared to the previous Chill damage. Even when you consider this playing nicely with other Necros, not only is that a poor idea to stack Necros just in the concept of what the class does, but it’s still a DPS loss of at least 10% when stacking 3 Necros.

Did Deathly Chill need a nerf? Absolutely; it made it too easy to deal damage with Condi Necro and it added a “kill you faster” switch to a condition that I believe is already too punishing on its own. However, I don’t think completely gutting its functionality was the correct way to balance out why people hated Reapers.

PvP wise I just checked on a golem with a Hybrid Mercenary (Nightmate Rune) build. An R5 into R4 combo stack around 7-10 Bleeds. Without much Might boons thats around 1000-1400 damage per tick. Nothing really great. A single tick from 1 stack hit’s for a lousy 144.

Hitting the golem further with a normal rotation got the Bleed ticks to around 2000 damage per tick max. Dhuumfire is still the biggest condi damage this build has, ticking for 3000 while hitting the target with R1.

I don’t really know how to feel about all this as for today. Gotta play and see how it turns out.

A better test for you would be to compare the number of seconds you can keep something chilled compared to how many applications of chill you can cause (and its subsequent bleed time) in that time, and the disparity of ramp-up time [and what you have to give up in order to gain those chill applications].

If testing for pvp, you also need to play it in situations where you are being hit while having Frost Armor/Aura up (ie: not just hitting a dummy) and in situations where your bolts, etc. are being caught by something other than your intended target.

Tried this out in open world pve, and honestly, it is not that bad. I just wish they lifted the cooldown on chilling darkness so skills like nightfall and well of darkness is viable. RS4 with corrosive poison cloud sucks now, but spinning in an ice field has it’s merits.

RS4 always felt like it was cruising for a nerf. Is there any other whirl in the game that lasts nearly so long?

full condi burst rotation will net 14-16 stacks of bleeds (just from DC proc, not including Sc/St attacks). also with no icd ur procing more condies/skill use then you usually would which helps against the passive condi clear builds like Ele’s DS. The burst dmg with the change is substantially higher than the original chill dmg so this all comes down to l2p with the change and feel it out. The change was made for pvp, in pve chill dmg was useless unless you were the only person casting chill or else your dps drops due to the override. but in PVP the free casting Staff #3/5 players w/ suffer could constantly keep up dps without running a proper rotation. So as a necro main i do feel this change is “ok” if you can utilize it properly.

Chill rotation in case you have no idea what im talking about

Staff – 3/5 Swap (proc sigil or hydromancy) (3 bleeds)
Sc#3 for torment just because its OP (0 Bleeds)
RS#5/4/3/3/2 (13-14 bleeds (if traited in curses to chill on blind) 12-13 if not traited)
Utility – Flesh wurm & /GG
the above rotation will take less than 8s so you will end up with 16 bleeds due to the DC trait only

i’m at work so i cant get you any screens but you can do the math 16 bleeds vs 1 chill… easily more burst DPS can be obtained with the changes to DC. But if you just AFK marks this change will not work for you!

Later

Edit – Could also through in “Suffer” and add another bleed!!!

Why not just scepter auto for those 8 seconds? Mix in 2, 5 and 3. Get poison, torment, cripple, weakness and up to 2 bleed stacks per cast(5 and 4 on 2 and 5 + aoe). Better duration bleeds and you don’t need to blow 2 weapon sets and shroud worth of cool downs.

You can also stay out of melee instead of having to close for reaper shroud. Which begs the question…why reaper shroud?

Would rather spite sig or bip than deal with suffer for an 8 sec bleed. At least you get something for it or boon corrupt.

Yeah mark me down as one of the people with l2p issues cause I’m still not getting it lol

Reh.5986:

Why not just scepter auto for those 8 seconds? Mix in 2, 5 and 3. Get poison, torment, cripple, weakness and up to 2 bleed stacks per cast(5 and 4 on 2 and 5 + aoe). Better duration bleeds and you don’t need to blow 2 weapon sets and shroud worth of cool downs.

You can also stay out of melee instead of having to close for reaper shroud. Which begs the question…why reaper shroud?

Would rather spite sig or bip than deal with suffer for an 8 sec bleed. At least you get something for it or boon corrupt.

Yeah mark me down as one of the people with l2p issues cause I’m still not getting it lol

yea definitely not… the concept of a “burst” is to drop your highest DPS over a short period of time in order to either A – win/down the enemy or B – put them of the defensive. Once ur burst is complete flesh out to XXXX range and ull be on sc for those good ol AFK auto attacks on top of the dps u just caused. Sorry this is mainly a pvp thing!

Would love to see the math on this. I guess staff 2, 3 and 5 are still worth swapping for but I don’t see bleed on chill really making a ton of difference unless you land the shroud combo.

Drakril.4058:

Staff – 3/5 Swap (proc sigil or hydromancy) (3 bleeds)

But how many would you get with a geomancy sigil?

Drakril.4058:

RS#5/4/3/3/2 (13-14 bleeds (if traited in curses to chill on blind) 12-13 if not traited)
Utility – Flesh wurm & /GG

Are you also traited into curses in general during this, or only when using Chilling Darkness?

bearshaman.3421:

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

I was more concerned about the change to RS4 and 3 than losing the chill damage….it had to happen though

Still 1 stack of bleeding is insulting… kinda saying “here we intend to butcher this trait into oblivion and then spit in yo face”.

How is that? As has been stated, there is no CD on this, and with the amount of chill application reaper has, you will have tons of bleed in no time. Any more stacks or duration would have made it more broken than it was. As it is now, you can stack this with Blood Bond for some nice synergy across trait lines.

Blood Bond? Why just, why would you use blood magic on a condi reaper?
It is not a matter of no cooldown or not, if you want to stack bleeds so much then might as well spam scepter 1-2 for a better ramp up and at a lower cost of cooldwons. No one should blow all their chill application for a small burst in bleeds that is achievable with added bonuses with scepter alone and comes with cover conditions. Besides now we are back to the easily cleansed 1 main damaging condition aka bleeds and its just 1 single stack. To follow up with the nerf to DS, RS skills got nerfed to boot and no one ever except a downed body stands on RS5+4. This “some nice synergy” doesnt exist in a meaningful way atm.

as it stands this GM trait is beaten by pretty much any on crit effect from sigils and minor traits. the only reason this would still be a pick is because there is just no other decent replacement

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

bearshaman.3421:

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

I was more concerned about the change to RS4 and 3 than losing the chill damage….it had to happen though

Still 1 stack of bleeding is insulting… kinda saying “here we intend to butcher this trait into oblivion and then spit in yo face”.

How is that? As has been stated, there is no CD on this, and with the amount of chill application reaper has, you will have tons of bleed in no time. Any more stacks or duration would have made it more broken than it was. As it is now, you can stack this with Blood Bond for some nice synergy across trait lines.

Blood Bond? Why just, why would you use blood magic on a condi reaper?
It is not a matter of no cooldown or not, if you want to stack bleeds so much then might as well spam scepter 1-2 for a better ramp up and at a lower cost of cooldwons. No one should blow all their chill application for a small burst in bleeds that is achievable with added bonuses with scepter alone and comes with cover conditions. Besides now we are back to the easily cleansed 1 main damaging condition aka bleeds and its just 1 single stack. To follow up with the nerf to DS, RS skills got nerfed to boot and no one ever except a downed body stands on RS5+4. This “some nice synergy” doesnt exist in a meaningful way atm.

as it stands this GM trait is beaten by pretty much any on crit effect from sigils and minor traits. the only reason this would still be a pick is because there is just no other decent replacement

This a million times. It’s such an insulting change. It’s literally one of the worst grandmasters imaginable. And then they nerf the whirl on top of it. lol. All you can do is laugh. But I’m getting close to hanging up my spurs. It’s been 3 years now and I’m so tired of getting my chain yanked.

It’s fun to say 10 to 15 (if you land like every chill source in the game) extra bleeds do more damage but the extra ramp up time completely changes most situations and gives all those spammy heal and cleanse classes more time to cycle cooldowns that are usually shorter than ours.

And all the runes/sigils/traits it takes to have enough sources of chill is just annoying. If you can keep someone on the hook for 6 to 8 seconds, landing everything then you may get some ok ticks. Not compared to other classes but ok. If you manage to get someone to stand in dhumfire you’ll do better and cleave like a boss.

If you find someone like that, though, just run a power build. They’ll die a ton faster.