Guild Wars 2

For those who haven’t seen it yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbdl5WoAI90

Here’s a summary of the things we hadn’t known before we could watch the recorded stream on youtube:

1. Death’s Embrace:
More downed state damage and striking foes below 33% health inflicts 1 stack of vulnerability for 5 seconds.
What we didn’t know: there is no icd on that vuln application.

2. Barbed Precision:
33% chance to inflict bleeding.
Apparently this was an intentional change. But the explanation for why they did it seems rather weak: “we lowered the critical chance because you’re also getting that 20% bleeding duration”.
Seriously? Like you can’t just get that same duration buff now on top of extra condi duration from points in Spite? The 20% merged into this trait really can’t be the reason for this nerf.
I could imagine that in combination with traits in other specs like Deathly Perception would give this trait a noticable buff, and this might be the reason why they nerfed it. However, I’d much rather take -50% duration on that single bleeding stack than have the proc chance reduced by half. This way the potential to do just as much damage is still there, but now it’s more of a matter of getting lucky with rng than an actual static nerf to the trait.
So if any changes to Barbed Precision are still possible: please revert the proc chance to 66% and reduce the bleeding duration instead.

3. Master of Corruption:

What we didn’t know: the additional self applied condition is a different one from the initial condition, so not just another stack of the same.
Robert Gee didn’t know them by hard (they will be seen in the skill fact), but he mentioned blindness, poison, bleeding and torment being among those extra condis. He also said “some of them can be devastating if you don’t get them off of you in time”.

4. Terror:

Not an actual news regarding the skill itself, but Robert Gee said that it was moved to master because of the feedback they got from the community.
First of all, no one was bothered by the tier Terror was in! It was annoying that it didn’t get the same treatment of the baselining of traits that were standard picks accross all classes, including the necro.
Quote: we made a lot of staff traits baseline and rolled the remaining ones into one because those staff traits were taken all the time anyway. (obviously the very same logic applies to Terror)
Also, even if moving Terror to master tier was an actual request from the community (it wasn’t), this feedback would’ve been based on the version of the Curses specialization we saw before. With this new trait setup Terror makes just as little sense in master as in any other major trait tier. Seriously, please merge this with a minor already!

5. Weakening Shroud:

No icd confirmed. Functionally identical in this case just means it’s the same but also a seperate skill from the dagger’s so it woudn’t interact with Quickening Thirst.

6. Beyond the Veil:

In regards to the community’s request to make this apply to allies:
According to their explanation, Death Magic is not supposed to be a support line for allies but just for buffing your own defense. So Beyond the Veil is primarily protecting the necro and as an extension of himself also his minions.

7. Blood Magic:

In regards to siphons working through Shroud, they decided to limit healing through Shroud to siphons for balance reasons, but they are still looking into expanding it to other traits and skills if it becomes necessary.

8. Last Rites:

The values for this one will be:
- Above 75%: 150 healing power
- 50-75%: 300 healing power
- Below 50%: 450 healing power
(He didn’t say if below 25% adds another 150, I’m guessing no.)

The radius for preventing allies from bleeding out will be 300.
They didn’t say if the trait works in downed state to prevent several downed necros from being stranded in downed state limbo. But Robert specifically mentioned that the trait doesn’t work on the player himself as it would be too strong, which could either mean that the trait is disabled in downed state or it does work and they didn’t really consider the issue of having necros in downed state indefinitely if an opponent prevents them from rezzing.

9. Blood Bond:

Lesser Signet of Vampirism just marks the target and there will only be 5 stacks instead of 25. So there will not be an initial heal like the one of the real Signet, but the damage and healing of the stacks are the same, which allies can consume as well.
Also the coodlown will be lower, 15-20 sec – they are still figuring it out.

12. Life from Death: Revival percentage is between 5-7%.

13. Transfusion: Revival percentage is 2% per pulse.
Teleport range will always be 600, but the radius in which allies are healed will be determined by the skill used. So 600 for Life Transfer, 300 for Soul Spiral in Reaper’s Shroud.
The teleport will check for up to five allies with every pulse/hit, but it can only work on the same ally once, so you can’t drag someone in downed state across the map with you.

11. Vampiric Presence:

No icd, the values will be what the current values of Vampiric are. Radius remains unknown.

Final Words:

According to Robert, with all the changes – especially to Blood Magic – they wanted to create a necromancer exclusive niche type of support.
Although we don’t know all the numbers and how they will affect gameplay yet, personally I think they’ve done an awesome job in that regard. #Geelieve

Agree. They did a good job. And the justification for a lot of the stuff is sound. I do agree with the points you have brought up as well. Barbed seems a bit of an over nerf and the terror thing is still a bit of a problem.

Something extra to add. I really dislike the whole corruption approach though. Its not just Consume and Plague. Although those are the biggest issues. Its also the fact that corruption skills are not strong enough in their current states to justify a single negative condition. Baseline should be no self conditions. And the trait should add conditions but boost corruption skills with more than just cooldown reduction. So either double effectiveness or add additional effects like projectile block to CPC and blast finisher to epidemic when traited.

If they address corruptions I will be very happy. After that we only need our active defence and combo finisher problems resolved and then we will be on an equal level with the majority of other classes.

flow.6043:

13. Transfusion: Revival percentage is 2% per pulse.
Teleport range will be the same as the skill itself: 600 for Life Transfer, 300 for Reaper’s Shroud.

Are you sure about this? I also watched the ready up and i recall that he said that the teleport will always be 600 range. Only the rezzing/healing part will depend on the radius of the skill (aka 600 for DS and 300 for RS)

Was glad to see last rites and weakening shroud are as strong as could be hoped. Disappointed in the rest

Muchacho.2390:

flow.6043:

13. Transfusion: Revival percentage is 2% per pulse.
Teleport range will be the same as the skill itself: 600 for Life Transfer, 300 for Reaper’s Shroud.

Are you sure about this? I also watched the ready up and i recall that he said that the teleport will always be 600 range. Only the rezzing/healing part will depend on the radius of the skill (aka 600 for DS and 300 for RS)

You’re right, I misunderstood that part.

One thing I ould add as criticism maybe reduce the stacks required of blood bond to 3. It means that dark path can trigger it on it’s own.

spoj.9672:

Its also the fact that corruption skills are not strong enough in their current states to justify a single negative condition.

This is the entire crux of the matter. I personally find it mind boggling that this in and of itself was not properly evaluated. As a result it simply seems like it was added for aesthetic flavor over practicality.

I thought it was implied on barbed precision that due to target the weak giving 2% crit now instead of damage you could get crit too high.

Tim.6450:

One thing I ould add as criticism maybe reduce the stacks required of blood bond to 3. It means that dark path can trigger it on it’s own.

I think this is the very reason why they made it 4 stacks of bleeding.
Too many skills could trigger this this by themselves, which I think is a good thing actually. It means you’ll have a little more controll over when the signet activates instead of having it trigger at random by hitting some unwanted target with it in some 2-stack aoe skill and an rng Barbed Precision proc.
Also, it’s rather easy to que 2 bleeding skills to have it intsantly trigger on purpose. Like any of your standard aoe bleeds (Mark of Blood, Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood) and then follow up with a Geomancy sigil or Mark of Evasion.

Tim.6450:

One thing I ould add as criticism maybe reduce the stacks required of blood bond to 3. It means that dark path can trigger it on it’s own.

Yes that would be nice but honestly i dont think it would be a big deal if it stayed 4 stacks of bleeding.

I like most of the explanations.

However, our rezzing portions of rez traits, especially that Life from Death are a little bit too low. 4% for Transfusion and 10-15% for Life from Death would be reasonable.

I see how they could be kitten powerful when stacked in WvW, but current values are just too low to be usable in PvP (aside from port, which is great).

Zin.6170:

I thought it was implied on barbed precision that due to target the weak giving 2% crit now instead of damage you could get crit too high.

If you currently go into Curses you get an additional ~14,3% crit chance from the 300 precision the trait line provides. That is the equivalent of having 7 conditions on your target with the new Target the Weak, which will barely ever happen in PvP.

I actually use a full sinister build in PvE quite often, I even mix sinister into my WvW build, and with the occasional fury I can push my crit chance to a little over 70%. And I use stuff like warhorn and Ghastly Claws so I really try to push Barbed Precision procs as much as I can. And while you do get a nice extra chunk of damage (at the price of being more squishy), that 50-70% crit chance combined with a 66% chance on Barbed just isn’t enough to justify a nerf.
So my guess is that this amazing damage they were talking about must be a combination of the new damage formula and a trait like Deathly Perception.
Still, reducing the proc chance just means more rng than an actually reliable damage nerf (if it really is too strong, which i doubt). So it would definitely make more sense to just have it’s duration reduced, especially when the devs argument for it was that you now get Hemophilia rolled into it as well (which isn’t really a buff either because you’ll lose duration from Spite).

Question: was there actually any change to path of corruption?

The wording has changed to ‘Shroud skill 2 converts boons on struck FOES to conditions’. I am wondering because dark path actually hits up to 5 targets. Is the boon corruption still only on the primary target?

Rym.1469:

I like most of the explanations.

However, our rezzing portions of rez traits, especially that Life from Death are a little bit too low. 4% for Transfusion and 10-15% for Life from Death would be reasonable.

I see how they could be kitten powerful when stacked in WvW, but current values are just too low to be usable in PvP (aside from port, which is great).

Depends how they scale with healing power. Maybe the 18% res via transfusion in total is with no healing power. Depends. If these are the numbers with healing power, or if it doesnt scale with healing power then ye, its useless.

Last rites is better than I had hoped though

Tissitra.4153:

Question: was there actually any change to path of corruption?

The wording has changed to ‘Shroud skill 2 converts boons on struck FOES to conditions’. I am wondering because dark path actually hits up to 5 targets. Is the boon corruption still only on the primary target?

Dark Path cleaves in small radius on contact from what I remember, not sure if all 5 targets, though.

flow.6043:

Tim.6450:

One thing I ould add as criticism maybe reduce the stacks required of blood bond to 3. It means that dark path can trigger it on it’s own.

I think this is the very reason why they made it 4 stacks of bleeding.
Too many skills could trigger this this by themselves, which I think is a good thing actually. It means you’ll have a little more controll over when the signet activates instead of having it trigger at random by hitting some unwanted target with it in some 2-stack aoe skill and an rng Barbed Precision proc.
Also, it’s rather easy to que 2 bleeding skills to have it intsantly trigger on purpose. Like any of your standard aoe bleeds (Mark of Blood, Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood) and then follow up with a Geomancy sigil or Mark of Evasion.

That’s the issue I have with it, it will be near impossible to proc this thing with power you practically have to blow 2 out of 3 skill to proc it on your own and with random dodging cleansing it will be near impossible to do so reliable. Having this being able to proc with dark path or a mark of blood + evasion combo will make it much more reliable.

While the contol you have over this skill for a condition build will be almost non-existant because you will be randomly applying bleeds to your foe because of the minor in curses and the randomness from a traited signets (corrupt vigor + proc).

Muchacho.2390:

Yes that would be nice but honestly i dont think it would be a big deal if it stayed 4 stacks of bleeding.

It is a big deal power builds have only three applications of bleed, dark path, mark of blood and mark of evasion. Meaning in order to proc this thing you have to waste a dodge or staff while if it was only three stacks you can stay with dagger or axe if you want to.

Master of Corruption and lesser Signet of Vampirism are very disappointing.

Tim, you can’t take mark of evasion and the skill that procs lesser signet of vampirism, they are in the same slot.

Roe.3679:

Tim, you can’t take mark of evasion and the skill that procs lesser signet of vampirism, they are in the same slot.

MoE is a minor now.

Mark of evasion is a minor. You get it for free.

Edit: too slow

nekretaal.6485:

Master of Corruption and lesser Signet of Vampirism are very disappointing.

I don’t think lesser signet is disappointing.

They stated it would have a 15 or 20 second cooldown. If you add in signets of suffering it is reduced to 12-16 seconds. Add in the 2 seconds it will take to activate it and you can apply it every 14-18 seconds.

When you activate it you get 3 stacks of might and convert two boons on the target to conditions. You also put a mark on them that will do 1000 damage and heal for 1900 over its lifetime.

Seems pretty good to me.

As to dark path, I’m “guessing” they didn’t want you to heal in shroud too much. Since they said they are watching it, I’d imagine it is a reasonable adjustment to make to push it to 4 bleeds.

Tim.6450:

Roe.3679:

Tim, you can’t take mark of evasion and the skill that procs lesser signet of vampirism, they are in the same slot.

MoE is a minor now.

Ugh, forgive me, it’s hard to keep all the changes straight.

Zin.6170:

When you activate it you get 3 stacks of might and convert two boons on the target to conditions. You also put a mark on them that will do 1000 damage and heal for 1900 over its lifetime.

Since they made Bloodthirst baseline you are looking at around ~350 dmg and 500 healing from the active portion of the skill. So you are looking at ~1750 dmg and 2500 heal if you procc all 5 charges, which is easy enough in pve but unlikely in pvp. Still a nice thing to have.

What irks me about it is that it only has 5 charges. With this limitation it is pretty much a solo/1v1 thing because you don’t profit much from it in grp play (to some extent you are guaranteeing that the charges get consumed).

Overall number of charges is too low. Especially considering it has around half the cd of SoV and only 1/5 the charges and no initial heal. It profits strongly from Signet mastery, sure, but without the trait you get strongly diminished value out of Blood Bond.

The charges have a 1 second icd so increasing the charges on the lesser signet wont improve it for solo. I think its fine kitten stacks. I do still think the icd should be removed from both versions and the passive of the heal should be overhauled.

Putting normal amount/higher charges on it would make the trait too imbalanced for the adept slot it is in due to its potential in teamfights. Since teammates can remove the charges aswell, if you proc it on a target your team is focusing all it takes is for each person to hit them once with anything to get that extra 1750. With its low cd having more charges would be too much since you could get that 1750 extra dmg burst each sec.

So 5 charges is fine imo, even tho you wont benefit from as much healing due to teammates eating charges in a teamfight, them doing so also increases burst dmg from the marks on ur target. While obviously 5 charges is fine for 1v1 since that is the max we can proc ourselves anyways.

Zin.6170:

Add in the 2 seconds it will take to activate it and you can apply it every 14-18 seconds.

It should behave like other trait procs and have no activation time.

spoj.9672:

The charges have a 1 second icd so increasing the charges on the lesser signet wont improve it for solo. I think its fine kitten stacks. I do still think the icd should be removed from both versions and the passive of the heal should be overhauled.

Yes, I don’t think it needs improvement for solo. But since Anet introduced traits that activate certain skills with this update, why is Blood Bond such a crappy version of SoV and not more like it?

Half the cd with 1/5 the charges. Not adding the healing portion is totally ok but 5 charges is moronic. Blood magic is supposed to be a necro team support trait line and so I was expecting 25 charges with 35 sec cd (like the signet). The only reason why they probably didn’t do it is because it would make SoV even more undesirable. But that should be fixed by addressing the terrible healing skill not by implementing traits that differ vastly from the corresponding skill.

Papish.5806:

Putting normal amount/higher charges on it would make the trait too imbalanced for the adept slot it is in due to its potential in teamfights.

Adept traits are not what they used to be. You can’t pick two adepts anymore and looking at some new master traits from other classes that seems to be taken into consideration with balance.
10 charges would be a good middle ground with 20 sec cd and it would allow for more of a supportish aspect. Those 10 charges have to be procced first.
Also one could argue that getting enough hits in on some teamfight target to consume 25 charges of SoV would mean they’d be dead anyways?! (since it means you get attacked and hit by 5 players for 5 seconds without some negation tools – except blocks and endure pain)

Ashur.6403:

Zin.6170:

Add in the 2 seconds it will take to activate it and you can apply it every 14-18 seconds.

It should behave like other trait procs and have no activation time.

I mean you have to stack four bleeds or will it work on the reset if you already have four existing bleeds on the target? I just assumed you had to put four new bleeds up.

I’m just happy that when the signet procs it doesn’t apply a mountain sized stack of a condition to self.

flow.6043:

5. Weakening Shroud:

No icd confirmed. Functionally identical in this case just means it’s the same but also a seperate skill from the dagger’s so it woudn’t interact with Quickening Thirst.

Wow, no icd on Enfeeble, that’s pretty awesome. I was leaving options open for another trait line but this kinda seals the deal for Curses for me. Which means every 7 seconds if traited, we get to go into DS and aoe weakness. Solid.

gavyne.6847:

flow.6043:

5. Weakening Shroud:

No icd confirmed. Functionally identical in this case just means it’s the same but also a seperate skill from the dagger’s so it woudn’t interact with Quickening Thirst.

Wow, no icd on Enfeeble, that’s pretty awesome. I was leaving options open for another trait line but this kinda seals the deal for Curses for me. Which means every 7 seconds if traited, we get to go into DS and aoe weakness. Solid.

And if you have the Beyond the Veil trait, you can nearly perma 45% incoming damage (weakness+protection) if you cycle Shroud.

gavyne.6847:

flow.6043:

5. Weakening Shroud:

No icd confirmed. Functionally identical in this case just means it’s the same but also a seperate skill from the dagger’s so it woudn’t interact with Quickening Thirst.

Wow, no icd on Enfeeble, that’s pretty awesome. I was leaving options open for another trait line but this kinda seals the deal for Curses for me. Which means every 7 seconds if traited, we get to go into DS and aoe weakness. Solid.

The trait can proc itself it it crits for 13s of weakness every 10s. 100% uptime ftom a single trait.

I think a lot of the feedback they got concerning terror was with the older lingering curse trait, which was stated to give +100% duration to ALL conditions. Since it is now only scepter conditions, I’m not really sure that the same feedback is valid anymore.

Zin.6170:

nekretaal.6485:

Master of Corruption and lesser Signet of Vampirism are very disappointing.

I don’t think lesser signet is disappointing.

They stated it would have a 15 or 20 second cooldown. If you add in signets of suffering it is reduced to 12-16 seconds. Add in the 2 seconds it will take to activate it and you can apply it every 14-18 seconds.

Lesser signet is disappointing. Signets of Suffering is good. But Lesser Vampirism should stand on its own.

If there are only 5 available procs, shared with your teammates, then you will heal for almost nothing.

Even in a 1v1 situation, you cant get all 5 procs yourself (and the problem is made worse by the fact that if you are taking this trait, you probably aren’t taking dagger, which means that you will be lucky to get two proc).

A siphon that only hits for, say, 400, has a 20 second cooldown, and is gated by two preconditions before it even works is among the very worst traits in the game for all classes.

The trait should do something if you take it and not depend on taking another trait to do something.

A few things:

2. Barbed Precision:
33% chance to inflict bleeding.
Apparently this was an intentional change. But the explanation for why they did it seems rather weak: “we lowered the critical chance because you’re also getting that 20% bleeding duration”.

I did a bit of math for this in another thread, but in the context of Necromancer the 20% boosted bleed duration usually adds much more bleed damage than the removed 33% chance to proc a 2s bleed on crit. It’s worth remembering Hemophilia used to be it’s own major trait that actually saw play, and it’s now rolled into the minor.

flow.6043:

4. Terror:

Not an actual news regarding the skill itself, but Robert Gee said that it was moved to master because of the feedback they got from the community.
First of all, no one was bothered by the tier Terror was in! It was annoying that it didn’t get the same treatment of the baselining of traits that were standard picks accross all classes, including the necro.
Also, even if moving Terror to master tier was an actual request from the community (it wasn’t), this feedback would’ve been based on the version of the Curses specialization we saw before. With this new trait setup Terror makes just as little sense in master as in any other major trait tier. Seriously, please merge this with a minor already!

(Emphasis added by me)
Terror going from Grandmaster to Master was absolutely requested by the community. But you’re also very correct that it was based on the old version of Curses, especially the old Lingering Curses grandmaster. As Yamsandjams already stated:

Yamsandjams.3267:

I think a lot of the feedback they got concerning terror was with the older lingering curse trait, which was stated to give +100% duration to ALL conditions. Since it is now only scepter conditions, I’m not really sure that the same feedback is valid anymore.

100% to all conditions while holding a scepter was viewed by the forum (possibly rightly?) as mandatory for any condition damage build. Which meant no condition build would be able to justify taking Terror over Lingering Curses. Since the only thing Terror does is add condition damage to Fear, it didn’t seem usable in that context.

I also recall that at the time, some members of the forum (not myself, I’ve got hindsight not foresight) pointed out that Terror would then conflict with Path of Corruption, where it was usually taken together. But it wasn’t nearly enough to reverse the momentum.

nekretaal.6485:

Even in a 1v1 situation, you cant get all 5 procs yourself (and the problem is made worse by the fact that if you are taking this trait, you probably aren’t taking dagger, which means that you will be lucky to get two proc).

A siphon that only hits for, say, 400, has a 20 second cooldown, and is gated by two preconditions before it even works is among the very worst traits in the game for all classes.

The trait should do something if you take it and not depend on taking another trait to do something.

It is gated, but I will be using the other signet trait and locust on my utility bar.

My plan, and I hope it works, is to use horn offhand. When it procs I’ll use locust swarm. Since it siphons it will hit the target and use all 5 charges.

At least that is the plan to use them up! Now if it actually works well….I can always adjust.

gavyne.6847:

flow.6043:

5. Weakening Shroud:

No icd confirmed. Functionally identical in this case just means it’s the same but also a seperate skill from the dagger’s so it woudn’t interact with Quickening Thirst.

Wow, no icd on Enfeeble, that’s pretty awesome. I was leaving options open for another trait line but this kinda seals the deal for Curses for me. Which means every 7 seconds if traited, we get to go into DS and aoe weakness. Solid.

That would only be 7 seconds if you’re not using Shroud at all, so the weakness uptime in real combat probably won’t be close to 100% even if your opponents don’t cleanse.

Besides, the cd reduction on Speed of Shadows (currently Near to Death) was never about a high uptime of Shroud traits, it’s true purpose is to have a shorter window during which your real hp is exposed to damage. So if anything this trait will be used in bunker builds that actually want to stay in Shroud for as long as possible, which means that, ironically, the trait that could buff your weakness uptime of Weakening Shroud is typically used with playstyles that triggers on-Shroud traits the least often.

flow.6043:

Zin.6170:

I thought it was implied on barbed precision that due to target the weak giving 2% crit now instead of damage you could get crit too high.

If you currently go into Curses you get an additional ~14,3% crit chance from the 300 precision the trait line provides. That is the equivalent of having 7 conditions on your target with the new Target the Weak, which will barely ever happen in PvP.
.

Except that the extra crit is being rolled into base stats and equipment.

flow.6043:

Also, even if moving Terror to master tier was an actual request from the community (it wasn’t)

There were multiple requests to. People didn’t like that it had been “nerfed” by going to GM, didn’t like that it fought with LC, and didn’t like that it was one of the traits clogging the GM tier with condi-only traits. So directly and indirectly people asked for it. Obviously it was based on old Curses, and it doesn’t mean it was the right choice, but there were requests for it.

flow.6043:

6. Beyond the Veil:

In regards to the community’s request to make this apply to allies:
According to their explanation, Death Magic is not supposed to be a support line for allies but just for buffing your own defense. So Beyond the Veil is primarily protecting the necro and as an extension of himself also his minions.

I wish they’d do this for other things too. If minions had my damage reduction I wouldn’t have to worry about them instantly dying to AoE.

flow.6043:

The teleport will check for up to five allies with every pulse/hit, but it can only work on the same ally once, so you can’t drag someone in downed state across the map with you.

That would have been hilarious. Also sounds interesting, it means in zergs you could potentially scoop a LOT of people into a small area and heal them back fully if you have 2-3 Necros using these abilities. Coordinated in GvG its possible to “reset” a fight with that.

spoj.9672:

If they address corruptions I will be very happy. After that we only need our active defence and combo finisher problems resolved and then we will be on an equal level with the majority of other classes.

Agreed.

Rym.1469:

However, our rezzing portions of rez traits, especially that Life from Death are a little bit too low. 4% for Transfusion and 10-15% for Life from Death would be reasonable.

You’re forgetting that you don’t take over-time damage while downed. So these two abilities combo’d are enough to revive somebody from downed fully.

Edit: I see this comment a lot too. Stats from trait lines are being rolled into gear and base stats, these additional stats from traits now are additional and in no way replacements for what we used to have.

Softspoken.2410:

flow.6043:

2. Barbed Precision:
33% chance to inflict bleeding.
Apparently this was an intentional change. But the explanation for why they did it seems rather weak: “we lowered the critical chance because you’re also getting that 20% bleeding duration”.

I did a bit of math for this in another thread, but in the context of Necromancer the 20% boosted bleed duration usually adds much more bleed damage than the removed 33% chance to proc a 2s bleed on crit. It’s worth remembering Hemophilia used to be it’s own major trait that actually saw play, and it’s now rolled into the minor.

I see what you mean, but your logic is flawed.

First of all, my personal opinion on Hemophilia is this: it sould never be picked over Weakening Shroud. At best it’s a PvE trait for leveling your character when your access to other duration buffs is rather limited.

My personal feelings about it aside, you’re right, people do use Hemophilia. I believe it’s even included in the metabattle build.
But that actually means that for the builds who already used it, the merger with a minor trait isn’t a buff at all. The real upside to this is the alternative trait you get to pick instead, but that is completely unrelated to Barbed Precision because no major trait in Curses interacts with it, only the other way around.

Softspoken.2410:

Since the change reduced the bleeding output from the on-crit proc, (by lowering the percentage) but increased general bleed uptime (20% boost in duration), there’s some equilibrium point where the lost bleeds from the crit chance are made up for in the gained duration on your other bleeds. It just depends on what percentage of your bleeds come from Barbed Precision.

Taking 2 * 66% = 1.33~ bleed on hit, and the new version is 2.4 * 33% = 0.8~ bleed on hit, we can see that 40% of the BP crit bleeds were lost.
So at parity, the lost bleeds (BP * 0.40) should be the same as the gained duration on other bleeds. (Other * 0.20)
BP * 0.40 = Other * 0.20.
Since BP + Other = 100% of all bleeds…
BP * 0.40 = (100% – BP) * 0.20
BP = (100% – BP) * 0.50
1.50 BP = 50%
BP = 33%

So if more than 33% of your bleed output came from barbed precision (why) then this was a nerf. If less than 33% of your bleed output came from barbed precision, you’ve still come out ahead.

Your calculations are correct, but again, your logic is flawed.

You are assuming three things here:

1. The future system will give you those 20% bleeding duration but the current system doesn’t, when it’s really quite the opposite. Not only are you free to take Hemophilia now as well, but you actually get up to 30% duration from Spite.

2. Consequently, stating that other bleeding skills being affected by the duration buff as well would compensate for the loss of Barbed Precision’s damage is not only untrue, but also a pointless assumption because anything with a longer duration than Barbed Precision is a lot more likely to be cleansed before it expires on its own.

3. That is also what your conclusion is based on: you are assuming that every skill runs its full duration, and that would determine if either more or less than 33% of bleeding damage is done by BP or other skills.
Let me clarify right here: your other skills will always do more damage, easily. But it’s not because of their duration, but simply because they stack higher if you combine them. And in PvP it’s all about burst stacking.

Finally, any of that doesn’t even factor in other gear: sigil of agony (20%), Afflicted runes (30%), Krait (45%) and the ones I use: Mad King (35% bleeding duration and 5% condi duration), that combined with 4 points in Spite means that in PvP my bleeds are extended by 60%. If you add Agony sigils and Hemophilia you can actually max out your bleeding duration.
In light of that, can you honestly tell me that a puny 20% rolled into a minor trait can justify a 50% nerf to the proc chance of Barbed Precision?
Also, again, why the proc chance? If the duration is causing the problem, why not reduce the duration of the trait? The only reason you would reduce the chance to trigger it on critical hits is if you’d get a too high amount with a high crit chance. But like I said, rabid and sinister builds can already get more than 70% crit chance with that 66% chance to proc Barbed Precision. And this does not produce any absurdly high stacks of bleeding even with 4 sec long Barbed bleeds.

Really, I have no idea why they would nerf this trait.

Bhawb.7408:

flow.6043:

Also, even if moving Terror to master tier was an actual request from the community (it wasn’t)

There were multiple requests to. People didn’t like that it had been “nerfed” by going to GM, didn’t like that it fought with LC, and didn’t like that it was one of the traits clogging the GM tier with condi-only traits. So directly and indirectly people asked for it. Obviously it was based on old Curses, and it doesn’t mean it was the right choice, but there were requests for it.

I know, pretty much every possible suggestion has been made at least a few times at some point. But more importantly, I could have phrased this a little better. What I meant was, there were no reasonable requests.
Let’s be honest, we all knew the duration buff on Lingering Curse had to go, so the people who wanted Terror + super long fears were just asking for a buff instead of considering the implication of LC itself.
Also, tiers being an indicator of a trait’s strength is no longer true because you’re not investing points anymore. It’s really only about what combination of traits you want to allow.
As for having 3 condi traits in gm tier in the older preview, I was among the people who wanted Terror to move, but never to a different major tier.

Bhawb.7408:

flow.6043:

The teleport will check for up to five allies with every pulse/hit, but it can only work on the same ally once, so you can’t drag someone in downed state across the map with you.

That would have been hilarious. Also sounds interesting, it means in zergs you could potentially scoop a LOT of people into a small area and heal them back fully if you have 2-3 Necros using these abilities. Coordinated in GvG its possible to “reset” a fight with that.

That would still be possible if you had necros standing in a line, 600 units appart. They would basically pass the downed bodies along with Life Transfers, and if there are 6 necros the allies would all be completely rezzed in the end.

This sounds rather theoretical now, but I think this might actually be done in GvGs in the future.

flow.6043:

Bhawb.7408:

flow.6043:

The teleport will check for up to five allies with every pulse/hit, but it can only work on the same ally once, so you can’t drag someone in downed state across the map with you.

That would have been hilarious. Also sounds interesting, it means in zergs you could potentially scoop a LOT of people into a small area and heal them back fully if you have 2-3 Necros using these abilities. Coordinated in GvG its possible to “reset” a fight with that.

That would still be possible if you had necros standing in a line, 600 units appart. They would basically pass the downed bodies along with Life Transfers, and if there are 6 necros the allies would all be completely rezzed in the end.

This sounds rather theoretical now, but I think this might actually be done in GvGs in the future.

It reminds me of that…

Okay, trying to nest quotes is too long, so I’m going to leave my original statements out.

flow.6043:

I see what you mean, but your logic is flawed.

(…)

But that actually means that for the builds who already used it, the merger with a minor trait isn’t a buff at all. The real upside to this is the alternative trait you get to pick instead, but that is completely unrelated to Barbed Precision because no major trait in Curses interacts with it, only the other way around.

The assumption that the previous build wasn’t using Hemophilia was so the math could be feasible. Comparing the value of an extra trait slot and its effects relies a lot on the exact build and anticipated scenarios. I just wanted to compare the bleed output of Barbed Precision before and after the patch.

You are assuming three things here:

1. The future system will give you those 20% bleeding duration but the current system doesn’t, when it’s really quite the opposite. Not only are you free to take Hemophilia now as well, but you actually get up to 30% duration from Spite.

There’s an indeterminable amount of value in getting Hemophilia without using the major adept slot. You’re also assuming that Spite’s 30% condition duration should be made up for in Barbed Precision, when it’s a much more game-wide change.

2. Consequently, stating that other bleeding skills being affected by the duration buff as well would compensate for the loss of Barbed Precision’s damage is not only untrue, but also a pointless assumption because anything with a longer duration than Barbed Precision is a lot more likely to be cleansed before it expires on its own.

Conditions are always cleansed after four seconds? I’ll defer to the PvP experts, but if that is strictly true then I’m surprised that people try conditions at all.

3. That is also what your conclusion is based on: you are assuming that every skill runs its full duration, and that would determine if either more or less than 33% of bleeding damage is done by BP or other skills.
Let me clarify right here: your other skills will always do more damage, easily. But it’s not because of their duration, but simply because they stack higher if you combine them. And in PvP it’s all about burst stacking.

There’s a point here. Maybe condition duration doesn’t actually contribute to damage, because of the ubiquity of cleanse. But in that case, why bring up the loss of Spite’s bonus duration in point 1? Anyways, if bonus condition duration is useless on most skills, that’s a game-wide problem, not Barbed Precision’s.

Finally, any of that doesn’t even factor in other gear: sigil of agony (20%), Afflicted runes (30%), Krait (45%) and the ones I use: Mad King (35% bleeding duration and 5% condi duration), that combined with 4 points in Spite means that in PvP my bleeds are extended by 60%. If you add Agony sigils and Hemophilia you can actually max out your bleeding duration.
In light of that, can you honestly tell me that a puny 20% rolled into a minor trait can justify a 50% nerf to the proc chance of Barbed Precision?

I am! If condition duration does you no good because you’re overloaded on it from the free 20% of the minor trait, perhaps a different rune set or sigil would become more advantageous?

Also, again, why the proc chance? If the duration is causing the problem, why not reduce the duration of the trait? The only reason you would reduce the chance to trigger it on critical hits is if you’d get a too high amount with a high crit chance. But like I said, rabid and sinister builds can already get more than 70% crit chance with that 66% chance to proc Barbed Precision. And this does not produce any absurdly high stacks of bleeding even with 4 sec long Barbed bleeds.

Really, I have no idea why they would nerf this trait.

On the difference between duration & proc chance – I’m not sure why they went with reducing the bleed chance compared to the bleed duration. Over time and a bulk of crits (15 or so?), adjusting the duration & the proc chance are equivalent ways of changing the bleed output of the trait.
But really, the reason that they nerfed the output is obvious. Rolling Hemophilia into Barbed Precision made the trait represent a lot more bleed output than it previously did, so they decided to cut back that bleed output by reducing the strength of the proc. While I still think the trait managed a net buff, I can see why in a cleanse intensive environment players won’t value the 20% increased bleed duration.

I think the general belief is that it’s good. Not great, not “makes other classes jealous” amazing. Just good. Which is better than worse.

But…

Where it’s bad, it’s REALLY REALLY kittenING BAD. Consume nerf is legendary levels of bad. A few other bad things here and there but nothing that makes the same waves as Consume.

dood.7526:

Where it’s bad, it’s REALLY REALLY kittenING BAD. Consume nerf is legendary levels of bad. A few other bad things here and there but nothing that makes the same waves as Consume.

Still though…….it is better than any of our other heals even with the nerf!

Zin.6170:

dood.7526:

Where it’s bad, it’s REALLY REALLY kittenING BAD. Consume nerf is legendary levels of bad. A few other bad things here and there but nothing that makes the same waves as Consume.

Still though…….it is better than any of our other heals even with the nerf!

Unfortunately.

Softspoken.2410:

The assumption that the previous build wasn’t using Hemophilia was so the math could be feasible.

Feasible but pointless.
Calculating on the basis that you will have access to more bleeding duration after the patch than now simply means you’re operating under a false assumption.

Softspoken.2410:

anything with a longer duration than Barbed Precision is a lot more likely to be cleansed before it expires on its own.

Conditions are always cleansed after four seconds? I’ll defer to the PvP experts, but if that is strictly true then I’m surprised that people try conditions at all.

Not always, “more likely” is what I said.
But generally yes, the aoe cleanse spamming in team fights is among the problems why in the current meta condition builds just aren’t as viable as zerker or celestial builds.

Softspoken.2410:

Maybe condition duration doesn’t actually contribute to damage, because of the ubiquity of cleanse. But in that case, why bring up the loss of Spite’s bonus duration in point 1?

You are mixing up two things here.
Frequent cleansing means short duration conditions have the best chance of doing their full amount of damage. That includes Barbed Precision.
Regardless, I brought up Spite because your damage calculation for the current trait system is based on not having access to Spite’s duration boost, or any other bleeding extension for that matter.

Softspoken.2410:

Rolling Hemophilia into Barbed Precision made the trait represent a lot more bleed output than it previously did

Wrong.

That’s exactly my point.
You potentially have access to even more bleeding duration in the current system. Combining Barbed Precision with Hemophilia might be a buff for some people but it’s really the same as having 4 points in Spite now (which I do, so it doesn’t change anything for me).
And while it’s true that merging into minors or baselining traits is a buff in the sense that you get to pick different traits instead, in regards to bleeding damage/duration/stacking however, this merger will not change anything at all.

Keep in mind, you can currently get 100% crit chance, +100% bleeding duration and combine that with a 66% chance to proc Barbed Precision.
And by “can” I mean: I have done this. I’ve adjusted my build to include Deathly Perception and maintain 100% bleeding duration.
Just a reminder, I have Mad King runes in my build, the 6th bonus triggers an aoe version of Hunter’s Call which does 16x damage. So I could basically combine that with Life Transfer for an additional 9 hits per target with a 100% crit chance. That actually did produce an impressive amount of bleed stacks with Barbed Precision. But ultimately it was a gimmick, an occasional damage spike that doesn’t actually produce more stacks than you could with your regular skills, so of course I didn’t keep this trait setup.

Now here’s what Robert Gee said in the video:
“When we combined a couple of traits the power of this thing [Barbed Precision] shot up really high so we ended up lowering the proc chance because it was getting out of control”

Now my question: What trait combination did you use to produce this result? What do you have access to in the future version of our traits that you can’t already do now?
Seriously, what??

Softspoken.2410:

adjusting the duration & the proc chance are equivalent ways of changing the bleed output of the trait.

Wrong again.

Adjusting durations means a static nerf to the trait.
Adjusting the proc chance, however, just means you need to have more luck with rng to produce the exact same result.

And yes, the bottom line will be that the trait inflicts less bleeding on average.
However, the fact remains: they want to reduce a crit based chance to proc a trait.
This can only be viable if under certain circumstances a 66% chance makes the trait triggers too often.
But how is this different from now when you can already achieve 100% crit chance in Death Shroud?
Perhaps with the Reaper? Maybe with Decimate Defenses in combination with some of the skills exclusive to the Reaper or the Greatsword?

Anyway, I just can’t figure it out. This nerf doesn’t make sense to me.

I actually agree with the nerf, because by itself the skill is just too good at stacking bleeds for non-condi builds. However, think that to balance out the nerf condition-mancers should have gotten other sources of bleeds buffed so they didn’t loose anything, and only power/hybrid builds were punished (on purpose it seems)

Dyrk.8092:

I actually agree with the nerf, because by itself the skill is just too good at stacking bleeds for non-condi builds.

A condi trait has better synnergy with a power build (not really) where it would deal less damage anyway (especially with the new formulas), and that’s why you nerf it?

Also, just to compare:
Rangers get to keep their 66% chance on Sharpened Edges and get the duration buffed from 2 to 3 seconds. (a major trait though)
Warriors’ Precise Strikes: 4 seconds of bleeding, 33% chance on crit.
Engineer’s Sharpshooter: 4 seconds of bleeding, 33% chance on crit.

I’d gladly give up Barbed Precision’s 20% bleeding duration if it meant I could either get a higher chance or 4 sec duration instead.

Dyrk.8092:

I actually agree with the nerf, because by itself the skill is just too good at stacking bleeds for non-condi builds. However, think that to balance out the nerf condition-mancers should have gotten other sources of bleeds buffed so they didn’t loose anything, and only power/hybrid builds were punished (on purpose it seems)

bleeds from pwoer/hybrid specs were a problem? does something like a hybrid necromancer even exist at the moment?

Theyre already nerfing the base damage of conditions (and at low amounts of condition damage), so even if the conditions of those specs might have been a problem, thats already taken care of.

I dont like the nerf to Barbed at all. the damage you got out of precision as a conditionmancer was already pretty bad. if anything, they shouldve buffed the bleed-on-crit.