Guild Wars 2

…. well not really THAT much. However, a lot of people have been slamming on the buffs saying that DS still sucks, buffs didn’t matter, no new builds should be explored…etc etc. I have not yet finished testing everything, but here are a list of not so obvious updates that is now true due to the buffs.

New DS:
1) +10% damage at all times/ +20% when target is below 50% in DS form. Axe Training and Close to Death could not both be selected before the patch. Since Axe Training does affect DS, this is a HUGE increase; assuming you chose Close to Death before. So to all the naysayers who are saying that DS is not worth using, try using it with Axe Training + an axe in your hand, then compare the numbers. The other implication is that tha axe now has +20% damage when target is less than 50% health; this is also huge.

2) 100% crit on Well of Suffering and Well of Corruption with zerker gear. Just drop the Wells, then hit DS. Profit LYK A BAWS.

3) Having fun yet? Now, instead of using DS1 ability three times then forced to leave because your Life Force dropped below 50%, now you can spam DS abilities until you are READY to leave? DS form can be effectively used for very prolonged period of time.

As you can see, though there needs to be more testing, DS/powernecros got huge buffs as far as theory crafting and initial testings go.

Disclaimer: I am not saying power is the best trait, nor am I saying Necro is OP. I am simply summarizing some of the obvious and not so obvious buffs that certain people have been brushing off.

Oh, do you like icing on your cakes?
4) 33% chance to gain 1% Life Force on ALL attacks during DS. Imagine using Well + DS4 on a group of mobs. (With the trait Reaper’s Precision of course)

Nice. Maybe that’s why Terror is a Master Trait now? (Imagine going 30/10/0/0/30 for axe training, close to death, Terror, Master of Terror and Deathly Perception, haha, carnage)

All of what you said works like charm if and only if you aren’t getting hit. DS4 is the only skill that actually is effective to keep your LF up during while getting attacked. The 33% change to gain 1% LF it feels lacking a lot.

Spectral Armor is no longer removed when you go into DS. Think about this: 33% damage prevention from the protection boon, and every hit you take restores 3% of your life force. That’s some major stamina!

I’ve found, post-patch, that I’m generally able in PvE to jump out of DS shortly before running out of LF and nearly hit full LF just as DS recharges, and that’s with Close to Death. In other words, I survive mobs of enemies that I had no right surviving before.

I did a little dps test. With solo buffs I managed to kill Risen Veteran giant in ~22 seconds without thinking too much of a rotation. (BiP+reapers touch+double wells+DS1111111111)

I agree… but im not sure ive seen many if any posts about zerker builds being poor post patch xD. Condition builds on the other hand…

1. +15 percent of crap direct dmg is still crap direct dmg.

2. 100 percent well crit isnt a big deal on con builds. First bc they dont deal dmging cons, second bc the most u can hope for is a 66 percent chance of bleeding for 2 seconds. So for blowing a 35 sec cd u might apply a 2 sec bleed 4 to 5 times over 6 seconds with intermittent 1 sec instances in which 2 stacks are on the target… compare to MoB… aoe, regen, 3 stacks for 16 sec, 6 sec cd..

3. doesnt apply to con builds. Even if ur gaining might every LB, it isnt enough to make up for loss of stacks.

4. The longer u use ds in a con build, the less dps u do.

I rearrange a bit to take advantage of the changes. Axe is a worthwhile weapon for me now, and the new DS grandmaster trait is beast. Makes the class fresh for me a bit, and love critting 100%!

I have seen quite a few people who are saying it in different replies. Some are claiming that dagger auto attacks hit harder without testin DS with axe training on. Or they straight up forget that DS is a powerful aoe option too.

chaosgrimm.5837:

I agree… but im not sure ive seen many if any posts about zerker builds being poor post patch xD. Condition builds on the other hand…

1. +15 percent of crap direct dmg is still crap direct dmg.

2. 100 percent well crit isnt a big deal on con builds. First bc they dont deal dmging cons, second bc the most u can hope for is a 66 percent chance of bleeding for 2 seconds. So for blowing a 35 sec cd u might apply a 2 sec bleed 4 to 5 times over 6 seconds with intermittent 1 sec instances in which 2 stacks are on the target… compare to MoB… aoe, regen, 3 stacks for 16 sec, 6 sec cd..

3. doesnt apply to con builds. Even if ur gaining might every LB, it isnt enough to make up for loss of stacks.

4. The longer u use ds in a con build, the less dps u do.

Wow, uh okay. I think you missed, like, the whole point.

1. Axe 2 deals good damage. So the extra 15% helps as does the 20% when foe is below 20% hp.

2. Title says these things buff power/DS builds. Not condition builds. Pay attention.

3. See above.

4. See above above.

SnyderHall.7263:

I have seen quite a few people who are saying it in different replies. Some are claiming that dagger auto attacks hit harder without testin DS with axe training on. Or they straight up forget that DS is a powerful aoe option too.

Dagger is still stronger. Axe training makes a small difference but DS will never be more damage than dagger + warhorn on its own. But with Tainted shackles a Target the weak dagger build gets even more damage.

spoj.9672:

SnyderHall.7263:

I have seen quite a few people who are saying it in different replies. Some are claiming that dagger auto attacks hit harder without testin DS with axe training on. Or they straight up forget that DS is a powerful aoe option too.

Dagger is still stronger. Axe training makes a small difference but DS will never be more damage than dagger + warhorn on its own. But with Tainted shackles a Target the weak dagger build gets even more damage.

I honestly don’t know which one currently does more DPS. But if you’d like to test the current dagger damage, put on full selfbuffs (including sigil stacks and food, but not envinromental weapons) and go to the left of Melandru’s temple in cursed shore and kill the Veteran Risen Giant. You can use 22 seconds (my approximate time with DS spam) as a benchmark value for the kill.

Targuil.3741:

spoj.9672:

SnyderHall.7263:

I have seen quite a few people who are saying it in different replies. Some are claiming that dagger auto attacks hit harder without testin DS with axe training on. Or they straight up forget that DS is a powerful aoe option too.

Dagger is still stronger. Axe training makes a small difference but DS will never be more damage than dagger + warhorn on its own. But with Tainted shackles a Target the weak dagger build gets even more damage.

I honestly don’t know which one currently does more DPS. But if you’d like to test the current dagger damage, put on full selfbuffs (including sigil stacks and food, but not envinromental weapons) and go to the left of Melandru’s temple in cursed shore and kill the Veteran Risen Giant. You can use 22 seconds (my approximate time with DS spam) as a benchmark value for the kill.

Not sure how id time that seeing as recording would lag me like kitten

Ok just got a 25second kill but i interrupted my locust swarm so that didnt get cast till mid fight and then the giant chain stomped 2 times in a row at the end. Had to dodge 3 attacks total. :<

Also bare in mind a DS build stacks vuln and might better, so solo it probably is quite even.

Edit: Around 25 seconds seems to be the best i can get when being forced to dodge so many stomps and not having the best sigils (Need to get bloodlust and swap focus sigil from energy to force). But in a group with full might and vuln i deffo think id beat a DS build, id also have perma fury in a group so wouldnt be getting unlucky on crits.

Conclusion: DS build better for solo and for groups with sub optimal party buffs, dagger build best for dungeon groups with optimal buff uptime.

Your test is a good indication of theorycraft vs actual capabilities of the two builds.

Dagger/X is going to be better in ideal situation (never get hit and never have to back off, dodge, etc) as you are not forced to weapon swap to staff to build life force. Each hit of life blast is weaker but the duration that axe/X has to spend in staff is a major disadvantage when compared to dagger.

On the flipside, Axe/X damage output is completely ranged. Axe2 > DS >staff > Axe2 >DS > etc, can be done at a safe distance of up to 600. It is much easier to achieve ideal scenario and maintaining dps output, with the only danger being going in to drop wells once in awhile.

Also, with the reduction in suffering CD, everything lines up very well in a rotation for DS dmg output. Every 3rd weapon swap you will have well and blood power available. Adding in 2 battle sigils, the damage output is easy to maintain and safe to keep.

I personally feel that axe/X is the better choice for PvE as necro has no block/invun/vigor to ensure that he doesn’t get hit. The most important thing in PvE is still raw dmg output and never stop attacking.

I think the only thing left to try is axe/X and dagger/X weapon set. This is mainly for people that do not go 10 in death magic. I think in that situation, you may as well put the staff away, rely purely on DS as the AoE output, and grab 2 weapon sets and find some rotation against single targets. Pretty much use dagger for dmg, and back off into DS in scenarios where you cannot maintain dps in melee.

Think most people forget that lifeblast is 1 sec cast and in gw2 1 sec cast is slow casting.

I’m waiting for cavalier’s gear to be obtainable reliably in the game before I mess around with my necromancer. I just find that toughness to be far more attractive than a 100% crit chance with the changes to spectral abilities.

Plus it sounds way more hilarious putting out big numbers without being made of glass.

Its been good if you’re raw damage guy. I’ve felt kind of let down as a tanky power necro. Blood and Death needed some major buffs that they didn’t receive, and I’d love to venture deeper into Spite for more power/condition duration, but the majors don’t offer much to Dagger/X + Staff.

I’ve tried Axe/Focus Dagger/Dagger but you give up so much losing the staff. I’ll just stick with 10/0/30/30/0 and be happy with my PvE wells (CD buff was nice) but I feel in PvP/WvW there’s really no utility set that makes much sense. I’ll just keep waiting for a future patch with my name on it =D

ryokoalways.3450:

I think the only thing left to try is axe/X and dagger/X weapon set. This is mainly for people that do not go 10 in death magic. I think in that situation, you may as well put the staff away, rely purely on DS as the AoE output, and grab 2 weapon sets and find some rotation against single targets. Pretty much use dagger for dmg, and back off into DS in scenarios where you cannot maintain dps in melee.

Performing the well spike is going to be best in DS as they always crit. During the wells, lifeblasting+100% crit wells definetly outweighs dagger+wells.

ryokoalways.3450:

I think the only thing left to try is axe/X and dagger/X weapon set. This is mainly for people that do not go 10 in death magic. I think in that situation, you may as well put the staff away, rely purely on DS as the AoE output, and grab 2 weapon sets and find some rotation against single targets. Pretty much use dagger for dmg, and back off into DS in scenarios where you cannot maintain dps in melee.

I dont use staff or death magic in any version of a power build unless its for long range aoe in wvw. Axe and staff abviously have their advantages of being safe, but you really dont need them. For the pure DS build though axe is the best for lifeforce generation so that atleast has a place.

I wish they changed the minor traits in spite and did some more stuff with blood and death magic. Those were the most obvious areas to alter. Spite minor traits are awful for any dps build and we all know death magic and blood magic really arent as good as they should be.

Yes nice buff to DS. I managed to use it in dungys where all others had vigor and could get that extra dodge. I could constantly gen enough LF to suck up the odd hit.

Sure, the dagger dose more damage, and more heals.
But the axe is now ‘viable’. The range on it means you don’t just get out run in pvp, or have to stand in ick at mobs feet in pve. With a focus, it maintains good stacks of Vuln.

The change to Life blast in deathshroud is my favourite change…. i’m talking about the use of range instead of % of life force to determine damage… good stuff.

Avigrus.2871:

The change to Life blast in deathshroud is my favourite change…. i’m talking about the use of range instead of % of life force to determine damage… good stuff.

That, and the low damage value got buffed.

Just to note since DS scales of the weapon not its increases Staff DS still does more than any other weapon we got (and another reason why it should be staple in each build).

Andele.1306:

Just to note since DS scales of the weapon not its increases Staff DS still does more than any other weapon we got (and another reason why it should be staple in each build).

Axe with axe mastery does more damage in DS than staff.

Axe: (857+1048)/2*1,15=1095,375
Staff: (985+1111)/2=1048

Axe with mastety gives ~4,5% damage increase in DS over staff, not to mention extra sigil. Though I am not certain if DS uses offhand at all.

Just one thing:

By “100% crit chance” I assume you mean you have like ~50% and get another 50 with Deathly Perception.
However, this trait doesn’t mean +50%. It means that your chrit chance is multiplied by 1,5. So 50% regular crit chance really gives you 75% in DS with Deathly Perception.

Targuil.3741:

Andele.1306:

Just to note since DS scales of the weapon not its increases Staff DS still does more than any other weapon we got (and another reason why it should be staple in each build).

Axe with axe mastery does more damage in DS than staff.

Axe: (857+1048)/2*1,15=1095,375
Staff: (985+1111)/2=1048

Axe with mastety gives ~4,5% damage increase in DS over staff, not to mention extra sigil. Though I am not certain if DS uses offhand at all.

Not sure if this is intended, but Axe Mastery has always worked with DS by +15%. This has been tested and tried true for months. I have tested it post patch, and it still works just the same.

flow.6043:

Just one thing:

By “100% crit chance” I assume you mean you have like ~50% and get another 50 with Deathly Perception.
However, this trait doesn’t mean +50%. It means that your chrit chance is multiplied by 1,5. So 50% regular crit chance really gives you 75% in DS with Deathly Perception.

No it’s not. Research it up again. That was one of the first thing people figured out when the patch notes were leaked.

Test it yourself, but you can also figure it out based on the tool text itself. It does not say “increases crit chance by 50%”, it says something like “you You have a 50% greater critical chance while in death shroud.”

Sorry, you’re right. My bad.

Power necro op! :P

After a bit of testing, (Steady weapons in PvP) I think that

• Axe Mastery does boost the damage of Life Blast when holding an axe
• Axe Mastery has been nerfed to a 10% damage bonus instead of its former 15%.

So going off of the Weapon Strength values (as Targuil did) Axe will change from 857-1048 to 942.7-1152.8, compared to staff’s 985–1,111. Their average weapon strength then is 1047.75 for Axe and 1048 for Staff – So they have the same average damage, but Axe will be a bit spikier in its output.

Test it more. If the trait does not work, it should be something like 4.5% as math shows. If it works, it will be 15%. There is no reason possible that the trait is “half working”; (very weird bug indeed). What is more likely happening is that your sample size was not big enough, and you might not have accounted for the loss of 5% damage when your lifeforce is below 50%.

If you truly care, document 100 shots either all above or all below 50% lifeforce in identical situations with axe training, then 100 shots without. Average both, then compare. From the perspective of someone who is doing a lot of statistical analysis in my labs, even 100 is considered a small sample size.

In my own testing, when I noticed that the general damage increase was over 10% by proximate, I called it a day and deduced that it was more likely working as opposed to working at 66% efficiency.

SnyderHall.7263:

Test it more. If the trait does not work, it should be something like 4.5% as math shows. If it works, it will be 15%. There is no reason possible that the trait is “half working”; (very weird bug indeed). What is more likely happening is that your sample size was not big enough, and you might not have accounted for the loss of 5% damage when your lifeforce is below 50%.

If you truly care, document 100 shots either all above or all below 50% lifeforce in identical situations with axe training, then 100 shots without. Average both, then compare. From the perspective of someone who is doing a lot of statistical analysis in my labs, even 100 is considered a small sample size.

In my own testing, when I noticed that the general damage increase was over 10% by proximate, I called it a day and deduced that it was more likely working as opposed to working at 66% efficiency.

I was implying that they’ve since changed / nerfed the trait down to 10%, probably since it is no longer a grandmaster and can be taken alongside Close to Death now.

When I tested the damage boost of Axe Mastery, I took a steady axe and 20 points in spite, nothing else, into the Heart of the Mists. Toggling Axe Mastery on/off changed the damage of life blast from 240 to 265. Since it’s a steady weapon, every shot gave the same damage, as I did not use axe 1 or Unyielding Blast or Reaper’s Might.

Edit: The damage comparison of Staff / Axe was just based on their relative weapon strength stats, and uses Targuil’s mathematic model- I just think he was using the value of 15% for Axe Mastery, which was valid less than a week ago, but does not seem to be accurate now.

Ah, you’re right. The wiki finally updated it yesterday or so. It is now only a 10% increase. That’s a shame.

SnyderHall.7263:

Ah, you’re right. The wiki finally updated it yesterday or so. It is now only a 10% increase. That’s a shame.

That was me.

Test it yourself.

I got a chance to test everything, here are some results. (Everything was done with steady weapon and normal weapons on spvp target golems)

DS does substantially more damage in Axe than Staff when you have Axe training selected.
Axe training works in DS, however, the skill was nerfed to 10% increase damage.