Guild Wars 2

Nemesis.8593:

What i say now is literally nothing compared to what i received back when i was putting out guides. Everything i was saying got ridiculed by these people, Spoj was among them… i even had entire threads dedicated to me.

Unfortunately what I’ve seen of Spoj almost everywhere has been civil. What I’ve seen of you has been sputtering and prideful. Guides are going to be ridiculed. You should be able to back them up, not hold grudges for years.

Nemesis.8593:

Secondly… i was right then, and i am right now…

It’s easy to claim we were right in the past with nothing to support it. Again, pride and ego running rampant. If only you’d tone it down, more people might listen.

Nemesis.8593:

ArenaNet said necromancers are fine, i said necromancers are fine… Spoj, Nike, Sesshi and a few others said necromancers are weak compared to staff ele and condition engineers.

The community would have never believed that in the first place if it wasn’t for the Icebow which was doing all the work for them.

Great, there are two sides to a discussion, so you can point/counter-point. What’s the issue exactly? That the community believe the other side?

Icebow is an ability a class has. If it takes that class above and beyond, that’s legitimate. Again, pride and refuting data because it makes you upset.

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… you really don’t get it. No one ever said “advertised numbers do not match reality” until i made those 2 videos… now they all try to sugar-coat it and go back on their claims.

Without these videos they would have continued pulling out numbers of 20K DPS condition engineer, 25K revenant and so on… which people do believe, despite the fact that Spoj admitted those numbers do not match reality… also he said he never advertised such numbers, even though he did as you saw in the videos.

I bet they did. I can’t trust your word because there’s an incredible amount of bias to your perspective. So much so that I’m inclined to believe the opposite, unfortunately. I don’t want that to be the case, but it is.

Nemesis.8593:

However… as i see it, i think i am too late… It’s going to take people more then year to finally realize they don’t do even half of what was advertised to them, in the best case scenarios… worst case they just die nonstop, have like 1K DPS overall, and blame everyone else.

At least now i can publish a few proper builds in peace without being ridiculed, i don’t think they would dare to trash my work like they did in the past… ever again.

Again, messiah complex and believing yourself infallible. How am I supposed to trust someone with such a heightened sense of self? Whatever your work is, I hope it is scrutinized. Everyone’s work should be. When spoj releases an evaluation of the data he’s collected, along with what rotations he has deemed optimal, I hope it is scrutinized as well. Heavily. I hope everyone takes everything they see and tests it, runs their own calculations, and draws their own conclusions. That’s how it should be done, and that’s how the best players will do it.

MMO communities have hardly ever been able to handle advertised numbers, in any game. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t figure out what our theoretical upper bounds are and how we might achieve them to further our gameplay.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

What i say now is literally nothing compared to what i received back when i was putting out guides. Everything i was saying got ridiculed by these people, Spoj was among them… i even had entire threads dedicated to me.

Unfortunately what I’ve seen of Spoj almost everywhere has been civil. What I’ve seen of you has been sputtering and prideful. Guides are going to be ridiculed. You should be able to back them up, not hold grudges for years.

Nemesis.8593:

Secondly… i was right then, and i am right now…

It’s easy to claim we were right in the past with nothing to support it. Again, pride and ego running rampant. If only you’d tone it down, more people might listen.

Nemesis.8593:

ArenaNet said necromancers are fine, i said necromancers are fine… Spoj, Nike, Sesshi and a few others said necromancers are weak compared to staff ele and condition engineers.

The community would have never believed that in the first place if it wasn’t for the Icebow which was doing all the work for them.

Great, there are two sides to a discussion, so you can point/counter-point. What’s the issue exactly? That the community believe the other side?

Icebow is an ability a class has. If it takes that class above and beyond, that’s legitimate. Again, pride and refuting data because it makes you upset.

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… you really don’t get it. No one ever said “advertised numbers do not match reality” until i made those 2 videos… now they all try to sugar-coat it and go back on their claims.

Without these videos they would have continued pulling out numbers of 20K DPS condition engineer, 25K revenant and so on… which people do believe, despite the fact that Spoj admitted those numbers do not match reality… also he said he never advertised such numbers, even though he did as you saw in the videos.

I bet they did. I can’t trust your word because there’s an incredible amount of bias to your perspective. So much so that I’m inclined to believe the opposite, unfortunately. I don’t want that to be the case, but it is.

Nemesis.8593:

However… as i see it, i think i am too late… It’s going to take people more then year to finally realize they don’t do even half of what was advertised to them, in the best case scenarios… worst case they just die nonstop, have like 1K DPS overall, and blame everyone else.

At least now i can publish a few proper builds in peace without being ridiculed, i don’t think they would dare to trash my work like they did in the past… ever again.

Again, messiah complex and believing yourself infallible. How am I supposed to trust someone with such a heightened sense of self? Whatever your work is, I hope it is scrutinized. Everyone’s work should be. When spoj releases an evaluation of the data he’s collected, along with what rotations he has deemed optimal, I hope it is scrutinized as well. Heavily. I hope everyone takes everything they see and tests it, runs their own calculations, and draws their own conclusions. That’s how it should be done, and that’s how the best players will do it.

MMO communities have hardly ever been able to handle advertised numbers, in any game. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t figure out what our theoretical upper bounds are and how we might achieve them to further our gameplay.

Everything i have claimed is backed up by video proof, you are free to verify it.

Once you discover that anything i have said is false, you can come and disagree with me, until then i have facts backed up with video proof, you have assumptions.

Nemesis.8593:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Holy kitten really
They always said in OPTIMAL situations you can reach that, of course in actual encounters mileage will vary, how is that a difficult concept to grasp

No… it’s not even in OPTIMAL situation… it’s actually NEVER.

Now… please write what you just wrote to me, to every single one of the people who argue with me and continue to claim sinister engineer and staff elementalist does 20K DPS.

Also google Obal revenant build, and write that in the comment section of his newly 25K DPS revenant video… in which you can actually hear him say the words “you do 15K DPS just by auto-attacking”.

Thank you.

PS:
Engineer “optimal” DPS = 20K / Necromancer “optimal” DPS = 14K
Engineer REAL DPS = 9-11K / Necromancer REAL DPS = 12-14K

Now… let’s exclude all necromancers from “teh meta”, for two years, based on math.
Or… let’s all go squishy melee zerkers vs “heavy armor deadly AoE whirlwind attacking” boss… based on math.

I wonder how they will ever show you actually need a tank/support in some situations with the math… i’m curious…

I don’t watch any DPS or build videos, I build my own stuff and for DPS I admittedly go after what I see and what I experience on my own – Which is of course not entirely accurate, but it works best for me as I have dyspraxia and not kittening up rotations at some point is completely out of question for me. The only thing I do is look at other’s traitlines to get ideas as they might see synergies I simply overlooked, or pick different approaches at things than I do which might actually be better.
As for Obal’s claim I obviously can’t say a thing, I know however that I can do 5k AA-chains (no I’m not saying DPS) with my Rev’s sword, pretty much unbuffed in Exo gear without sigils because I didn’t play her much yet and thus didn’t have to buy them.

Also, only idiots or wannabe-pug-speedclearers excluded Necros – in all my time playing this game I got kicked two or three times despite me rolling Necro probably at least 75% of the time. I got a ton of idiot pugs, of course, but that’s not because I play Necro but because the average pug is, well. Lets say I somehow managed to get four Guards into my group for Volcanic yesterday and neither of them ever dropped a WoR at any point of the fractal.
As a side note, I always played my Necromancer as Melee-Berserker, even when I started the first thing I did after cap was getting Dagger/Focus and Berserker-Gear because that just felt like the right thing to do for me – Not that it really matters for the topic but yeah.

Link your videos, along with context around what they are proving. I have no idea where your videos are to even look them up.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Link your videos, along with context around what they are proving. I have no idea where your videos are to even look them up.

I can not do that here, i have been warned… however you can YouTube Nemesis necromancer and you will find my channel easily enough.

Nemesis.8593:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Link your videos, along with context around what they are proving. I have no idea where your videos are to even look them up.

I can not do that here, i have been warned… however you can YouTube Nemesis necromancer and you will find my channel easily enough.

I don’t know why you’re trying to make it sound so ominous. You’ve been warned by ANet mods that you can’t post your own youtube video, like everyone else does? If so, that’s ridiculous.

i had a pretty easy time doing the HoT story and general HoT world PVE
i was running a full zerker geared blighter’s boon reaper using Spite, Soulreaping and Reaper with emphasism on vulnerability and might stacking.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Link your videos, along with context around what they are proving. I have no idea where your videos are to even look them up.

I can not do that here, i have been warned… however you can YouTube Nemesis necromancer and you will find my channel easily enough.

I don’t know why you’re trying to make it sound so ominous. You’ve been warned by ANet mods that you can’t post your own youtube video, like everyone else does? If so, that’s ridiculous.

It’s not… and i will not say anything more on the subject since such discussions are not permitted on the official forums.

I have learned my lesson the first time.

PS: I don’t have a signature anymore.

spoj.9672:

[snip]

Its not from the wiki. This has all been calculated from ingame. Some of it matches the wiki some of it doesnt…

And i said i dont have aftercasts for everything. And any input on aftercasts for certain skills would be appreciated. Rather than continueing to be a kitten why dont you tell me all the aftercasts so i can update the data to be completely accurate. Im not trying to decieve people. I want this to be as accurate as possible for mine and others benefit. So please correct any numbers i have.

Only aftercasts i have confirmed are gravedigger spam, greatsword auto, ghastly claws, life blast and dagger auto. I havent checked any single cast skills and i havent confirmed the other auto attacks yet.

I just tested Reaper Shroud autoattack cycle time. First test was 13 full cycles over 29.47 seconds = 2.26s/cycle. Second test was 12 full cycles over 27.05 seconds = 2.25s/cycle. Taking into account that I’m pretty sure my stopwatch timing was not absolutely perfect, this matches well with one of the BWE update notes from Robert Gee saying that RS1 was adjusted to 2.3s/cycle (without Reaper’s Onslaught).

Testing with Reaper’s Onslaught (and Vital Persistence slotted so I could get a longer interrupted test run, forgot that earlier >_>) gave me 35 cycles over 71.72 seconds = 2.05 s/cycle. This also seems to match well; 2.3s untraited / (1.15x attack speed) = 2s traited. I suspect those are the “true” values.

Note that this means that traited RS1 has 1.2 CPS, the same as Greatsword. Add in Dhuumfire supported by Reaper’s Might and this is easily our most damaging autoattack (although camping autoattacks is, of course, not necessarily the best strategy for overall DPS).

Son of Urza.1692:

spoj.9672:

[snip]

Its not from the wiki. This has all been calculated from ingame. Some of it matches the wiki some of it doesnt…

And i said i dont have aftercasts for everything. And any input on aftercasts for certain skills would be appreciated. Rather than continueing to be a kitten why dont you tell me all the aftercasts so i can update the data to be completely accurate. Im not trying to decieve people. I want this to be as accurate as possible for mine and others benefit. So please correct any numbers i have.

Only aftercasts i have confirmed are gravedigger spam, greatsword auto, ghastly claws, life blast and dagger auto. I havent checked any single cast skills and i havent confirmed the other auto attacks yet.

I just tested Reaper Shroud autoattack cycle time. First test was 13 full cycles over 29.47 seconds = 2.26s/cycle. Second test was 12 full cycles over 27.05 seconds = 2.25s/cycle. Taking into account that I’m pretty sure my stopwatch timing was not absolutely perfect, this matches well with one of the BWE update notes from Robert Gee saying that RS1 was adjusted to 2.3s/cycle (without Reaper’s Onslaught).

Testing with Reaper’s Onslaught (and Vital Persistence slotted so I could get a longer interrupted test run, forgot that earlier >_>) gave me 35 cycles over 71.72 seconds = 2.05 s/cycle. This also seems to match well; 2.3s untraited / (1.15x attack speed) = 2s traited. I suspect those are the “true” values.

Note that this means that traited RS1 has 1.2 CPS, the same as Greatsword. Add in Dhuumfire supported by Reaper’s Might and this is easily our most damaging autoattack (although camping autoattacks is, of course, not necessarily the best strategy for overall DPS).

Before you jump to conclusions try LichForm at 249.7% critical strike damage and 100% critical strike chance.

Interesting. Dhuumfire was already looking better even with the lower CPS. Im not too happy about that to be fair. There are other major damage advantages to avoiding dhuumfire. But thanks!

Lich is already listed as the highest dps auto on my spreadsheet. Its equal to gravedigger spam.

This thread is getting toxic. Both Spoj and Nemesis are correct in their calculations in that Spoj presents an ideal maximum and Nemesis presents a practical maximum.

Both are right I different ways and it is the player’s responsibility to determine what build fits them best.

My own experiments suggest to me that reaper is nowhere close to being over-powered in HoT. I have no numbers I wish to share, just opinion based on playing.

HoT punishes close range combat and combat without automatic damage avoidance. Shroud helps a lot for overlapping AoE but not for incoming ranged damage.

Ranged combat with passive avoidance or persistent blocks has a substantial advantage allowing high dps builds at risk. those highly-optimized, ranged or mobility professions seem to go down when pressured at close range.

HoT reminds me of WvW in some respects. Over-optimized dps builds need support. Necromancer can be a res-bot and wade into some of the mess to do some of that. Many other professions are better at healing or res’ing. Not many players are that interested in doing it under fire.

Group members should always build for enough sustain, add some group recovery skills, and forget about dps when others go down. Once the content stops being stupidly easy the dps question will go away.

Arenanet has been training players to have bad habits by allowing skippable content and making PvE encounters too easy. The result is the zerker meta and poor coordination between players.