Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

Hey guys, previously I did a video on all of the information we had available to us for Scourge and how I figured it would line up. Now that the beta weekend is over and we got a ton of hands-on experience, I revisited the information with fresh perspectives and more understanding:

As always feel free to discuss here or in the comments, let me know what you think of the video, and have a wonderful day!

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Pretty sure Trail of Anguish already will only affect a target once per cast, even if they run right along the trail after you.

Serpent Siphon, I have to disagree with you on. It just doesn’t have a good use. Long range, but you have to run into melee to get the barrier? Without the barrier pickup, it’s downright awful, and even with, you’re likely to take as much damage running in to get the Barrier as the Barrier actually absorbs, so it’s a null action.

I feel like Sand Flare needs a higher base on the actual healing value, but otherwise, it is fantastic. The barrier it gives is absolutely no joke.

Desiccate absolutely needs to scale life force gain. It definitely needs major work to not punish the Scourge for even equipping it.

Really, all of the utility (not Healing) Punishment skills are aptly named: they punish the Scourge for taking them over better utilities. Sand Swell is the exception, but either needs a reduced cast time or a longer range to actually be great. Ghastly Breach I agree with you on, it needs to move with the Scourge.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

Pretty sure Trail of Anguiosh already will only affect a target once per cast, even if they run right along the trail after you.

Serpent Siphon, I have to disagree with you on. It just doesn’t have a good use. Long range, but you have to run into melee to get the barrier? Without the barrier pickup, it’s downright awful, and even with, you’re likely to take as much damage running in to get the Barrier as the Barrier actually absorbs, so it’s a null action.

I feel like Sand Flare needs a higher base on the actual healing value, but otherwise, it is fantastic. The barrier it gives is absolutely no joke.

Desiccate absolutely needs to scale life force gain. It definitely needs major work to not punish the Scourge for even equipping it.

Really, all of the utility (not Healing) Punishment skills are aptly named: they punish the Scourge for taking them over better utilities. Sand Swell is the exception, but either needs a reduced cast time or a longer range to actually be great. Ghastly Breach I agree with you on, it needs to move with the Scourge.

I believe Trail has repeated effects, as I know it repeatedly applies Swiftness to allies as they travel through it and I believe it was the source of a bunch of additional Burn stacks, but I could always be mistaken.

The thing with Serpent Siphon is that the builds that really want to take it (a.k.a. the Healing Power based support specs) aren’t necessarily the ones going in for the barrier, but rather supplying it for teammates such as Warriors or Revenants. In this role, I found the ability was quite sweet.

I can agree with bumping up at least the barrier radius of Sand Flare to be ~300, but I don’t think the enemy-inflicted range matters to much.

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

Are you certain about trail of Anguish? Your explanation of the skill is exactly what I wanted it to be, but thought its not Running around and through stationary targets and target dummies, wasn’t applying multiple burns and didn’t gave me the results I was looking for. I didn’t tested it on players…

I’m not sure it should be treated like Slick Shoes, because Knockdown is way more powerful effect then the Burning and clever enemy will actually run out of it. Where once knockdown with old Slick Shoes it was impossible to escape without Stability.

(edited by mazut.4296)

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

Are you certain about trail of Anguish? Your explanation of the skill is exactly what I wanted it to be, but thought its not Running around and through stationary targets and target dummies, wasn’t applying multiple burns and didn’t gave me the results I was looking for. I didn’t tested it on players…

I’m not sure it should be treated like Slick Shoes, because Knockdown is way more powerful effect and clever enemy will actually run out of it. Where once knockdown with old Slick Shoes it was impossible to escape without Stability.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure it stacked more than once on individual opponents. I might be able to look back through my footage for specific points where I can prove it right/wrong.

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

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Posted by: Tiresias.6473

Tiresias.6473

Good video. I’d like to respectfully offer a little feedback, keeping in mind that I’m nitpicking and largely agree with you:

1. I actually think that you actually argued against your own opinion on Nefarious Favor. Yes, it’s very powerful in situations where you aren’t dealing with a ton of cover conditions, but as you said yourself it is actually rather weak if you’re being loaded up with tons of conditions. That’s how an MMO ability should work: very strong in some situations, very weak in others with a solid middle ground where it’s useful but not broken.

2. I believe the Torch skills hitting through walls and at high levels of elevation is a bug.

3. You’re a little hyperbolic at times, but I think that everyone agrees that Scourge is a really solid spec. A consistent theme as you describe abilities is “This turned out to be better than I expected”, which is a sentiment that almost everyone on this forum expressed this past weekend.

4. Trail of Anguish is designed to keep people from following the Scourge. It’s a “don’t stand in the fire” skill, and if it could only strike someone once then the duration on the conditions it applies would need to come up in duration dramatically.

5. You noticed that Scourge doesn’t scale against multiple opponents well. It did take you a while to get there, but the problem doesn’t exist only with Desiccate. There are long cast times on many abilities that allow them to be interrupted, many of the abilities don’t scale up against multiple opponents. Like Nefarious Favor, which is VERY powerful in 1v1 and 1v2 situations where you aren’t being spammed with conditions, the power of it drops off HARD against multiple opponents; it’s infuriating to be up against a Reaper and to be cleansing off trash conditions from their teammates but never getting the Chill and Bleed.

6. I feel like Sand Swell lasts too long. Seriously, it felt like it was there forever. I didn’t like Sand Serpents at all, and the other utilities felt far more powerful. Perhaps the problem I had was that lack of Stability meant I need to take two stun breaks as utilities.

7. Ghastly Breach is terrible — no argument there. They could make it better by lowering the cooldown, having it move with you, and grant Stability. I agree with you that it’s a utility skill, not an Elite.

8. I agree that Nourishing Rot needs to have the wording changed, but I don’t agree with allowing it to give more Life Force by removing more boons. I think it just needs to give you more Life Force when it triggers, probably up to 8%, but we don’t need to be in a situation where you are getting back 15% Life Force potentially every 3 seconds in a large fight. I get your complaints about attrition, but if you can’t run a Scourge out of Life Force in a large fight it becomes really, REALLY hard to kill them and their team. You can think of Life Force like mana in that regard. I mitigated this problem by using a Dagger as my weapon swap, which is fantastic at Life Force generation.

9. The way you “fix” the traits that grant benefits on each Shade you have active is to have them grant the same effect they do now but with full benefit at two Shades. That way you can keep a Shade in reserve. It would also reduce the need for Sand Savant.

10. I didn’t often get to burn people with Sadistic Searing in practice. I wasn’t willing to use my Punishment utilities and my Sand Shades just to get a little extra damage. I think that it should just cause your next attack to inflict burning in an area around your target. I did use Sadistic Searing quite a bit because I was testing the Punishments.

11. Remember that the Shades don’t stack their effects, which is why Sand Savant doesn’t stack up massive barriers or conditions. This is to prevent the encouraging of overlapping Shades.

12. Demonic Lore is amazing, and the damage is definitely fantastic. I don’t think that Dhuumfire needs to be changed — if it didn’t affect every Shade ability it wouldn’t be worthwhile at all. Keep in mind how quickly a Reaper can stack up burning with Dhuumfire. I do agree that the damage coefficient could be reduced for PvP, but it’s perfect for PvE.

13. I found that while Feed from Corruption is good, the damage loss from Demonic Lore wasn’t worth it. That’s just my personal opinon.

14. I’d definitely trade off some damage for better access to Stability and somewhat stronger barriers. In other words, move some power away from damage and towards self-defense or perhaps even stronger group utility..

15. The build isn’t overpowered, but it is very strong. We’ve seen overpowered in the past and this isn’t it, but it’s definitely borderline. Perhaps the biggest problem is that it’s “Feast or Famine”, in that you either melt people because they stand in your fire or you get crowd controlled to death and don’t get to do much of anything. It’s nice that Necromancers have a build that people will take seriously in PvP, though.

16. “Thank you for actually sitting through this video.” You’re welcome!

Main character: Winter Harvest (Necromancer)
[BICE] Black Ice / Maguuma Server

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

Snip!

No worries at all, I love healthy discussion; let’s get to it:

1. My opinion on Nefarious Favor is largely that because of a) how swingy it can be b) how much some people are complaining about it and c) the way it interacts with other items in the Necromancer line-up, I think ANet will probably just end up nerfing it as they usually do. If I could have it my way, I’d explicitly modify it in a way that doesn’t break it in half when combined with Path of Corruption, perhaps by making it so that PoC causes the skill to have a longer CD, or perhaps by giving Nefarious Favor a short cast time. It’s possible most of the shade skills could see a 0.25s cast time implemented just to mitigate the complaints of how people are just dying to kitten bomb from a Scourge’s faceroll when they tried going into melee range (more of a L2P issue than anything else, but the concept for frustration is there).

2. I agree

3. Oh definitely; I approach most of these videos without a script as it makes it a bit more genuine, but it also has the drawback of sometimes not making perfect sense, or getting a bit lost in a point. The major difference I would say between me and others though is that I went in expecting the skills to be good, and I found them generally great, whereas most others probably went in expecting them to be bad/subpar and found them to be decent.

4. I can agree, it’s mostly just a matter of uptime vs. effect.

5. This is reasonable though, because the same way that multiple opponents make it harder for you to survive, multiple teammates help shore up your weaknesses, and you theirs. Two Scourges or a Scourge and a Firebrand/Tempest together is bonkers. It’s also worth noting that Nefarious Favor alone not being enough entices you into the other traits like Abrasive Grit, which I found to be very powerful in tandem.

8. My issue with Dagger is that you have to be in melee range to use it, which isn’t always optimal. Otherwise I agree and made that point as well: If a Necro is capable of upkeeping Life Force more or less forever, then how does it die?

9. Reasonable.

10. Exactly. I understand the entire Master line explicitly alters the function of placing down Shades, but it could be cool to see something just entirely focused around the Punishment skills be placed here instead.

11. Right right, I get that, but Sand Savant explicitly reads “This greater shade counts as three shades for related traits”, so technically speaking it should cause each of the Master traits to proc three times whenever you place a greater shade. This is where my contention of the English came up; is it a bug? Intended?

12. You have to consider though that a Reaper does it by spamming auto attacks and nothing else. Scourge does it while Converting two conditions into boons, converting two boons into conditions, applying barrier to allies, AoE Fearing, and AoE pulsing Torment and Cripple plus power damage. Would Dhuumfire be anemic if it was only on Manifest? Definitely, but as it is currently it’s pretty cancerous and we need to either tone it down somehow, or let it sit around for a while to see if it’s mostly just a player-skill issue or if it truly is just too much consistent damage.

13. That’s because condition-based builds are not the home for Feed From Corruption, at least not ones where all you care about is the damage.

14. Ding.

15. Agree, although even in situations where you get CC’d in a circle, sometimes you still kill people for free just by mashing F2-5 when your tail is in melee range, which is a sweet countermeasure for the Necromancer but also stems back to the complaints brought up in point #1.

16. <3

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Tiresias.6473

Tiresias.6473

Snip!

<snip>

It seems that we see eye-to-eye on a lot of things, and from reading the other threads on the forum I can’t help by think that everyone’s take-aways were the same.

I mean, I played Scourge for a grand total of 4 or 5 hours this weekend outside of an hour or two spent beating up golems in the Heart of the Mists and pretty much identified the exact same issues you did and came to very similar conclusions, but I get the impression that you spent dramatically more time with the build.

In other words, there’s nuance to be had, but the overall theme is quick to pick up on:

1. Modest condition damage that turns into “melt your face” levels of stupid if your opponents step even a little bit out of line and give you the opportunity to sink all of your abilities plus Sand Shroud into them. That might be an intentional design decision, and it’s certainly entertaining (for the Scourge) to see someone EXPLODE with conditions, but some more middle ground and less extremes would be nice.

2. The Scourge continues the incredibly confusing trend of Necromancers not having good access to Stability, Protection, and Retaliation. I was fully expecting that these effects would become plentiful with Scourge since it sacrifices the Shroud’s second lifebar while still being asked to tank damage due to an overall lack of mobility, blocks, evades, immunities and access to Vigor.

3. The new Punishments and the Torch skills are “very solid”. A few may be a little too good, a few may be a little bit subpar, but taken as a whole it’s a good set of skills. However, it’s really hard to give up the utility of Dagger, Focus, and Warhorn for a Torch and Necromancers are unfortunately required to load up on stun breaks as utility skills due to the lack of Stability. Still, more options are good.

So, what we have here is a really solid specialization that continues to suffer from the exact same problems that plague the baseline Necromancer class in PvP situations. I remember when Reaper was released and people were complaining about the damage output… right until everyone remembered that you can just crowd control the Necro and burst them down, and you don’t even need to step into melee range to do that. Then conditions got a huge buff and the Power Reaper complaints vanished.

Perhaps that’s why I’m hesitant to call for nerfs to any aspect of Scourge right now. I’d like to see a few months of live play in real-world situations so everyone can figure out the new tools at their disposal.

One thing about Necromancers that has existed since Guild Wars 1: the class has always been a “B” Tier class. It’s never been “S” or “A” tier but it hasn’t spent much time (if any at all) at “C” or “D” tier, so to speak. Debuffing and stripping boons (or enchantments, in GW1) is and will always be a strong mechanics in group play, and the class has always had good self-sufficiency.

I don’t think that Scourge is going to alter that history going forward, either for better or for worse.

Edit: About that dagger: people would often charge into melee range with me, and 10 seconds of hitting them with a dagger was more than enough time to get back all of my Life Force. Yes, your damage drops off hard when you switch to it, but getting that Life Force back is super-important.

Main character: Winter Harvest (Necromancer)
[BICE] Black Ice / Maguuma Server

(edited by Tiresias.6473)

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

So, I just had an idea for one of Scourge’s minor traits:

“Upon killing an enemy, instantly gain a charge of Sand Shade.”

Would be in addition to, not replacing. It wouldn’t do anything for drawn out battles with a single opponent (most PvP) but it would allow a Scourge to relocate more easily between fights in WvW and PvE.

I dunno. In WvW, it might be OP, but it would be helpful in PvE.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

So, I just had an idea for one of Scourge’s minor traits:

“Upon killing an enemy, instantly gain a charge of Sand Shade.”

Would be in addition to, not replacing. It wouldn’t do anything for drawn out battles with a single opponent (most PvP) but it would allow a Scourge to relocate more easily between fights in WvW and PvE.

I dunno. In WvW, it might be OP, but it would be helpful in PvE.

I personally tend to despise on kill effects just because they are wildly inconsistent.

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Xavisz.9126

Xavisz.9126

Check out this Scourge pvp video:
https://youtu.be/3IDc1P12c1Q

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

Snip!

No worries at all, I love healthy discussion; let’s get to it:

1. My opinion on Nefarious Favor is largely that because of a) how swingy it can be b) how much some people are complaining about it and c) the way it interacts with other items in the Necromancer line-up, I think ANet will probably just end up nerfing it as they usually do. If I could have it my way, I’d explicitly modify it in a way that doesn’t break it in half when combined with Path of Corruption, perhaps by making it so that PoC causes the skill to have a longer CD, or perhaps by giving Nefarious Favor a short cast time. It’s possible most of the shade skills could see a 0.25s cast time implemented just to mitigate the complaints of how people are just dying to kitten bomb from a Scourge’s faceroll when they tried going into melee range (more of a L2P issue than anything else, but the concept for frustration is there).

2. I agree

3. Oh definitely; I approach most of these videos without a script as it makes it a bit more genuine, but it also has the drawback of sometimes not making perfect sense, or getting a bit lost in a point. The major difference I would say between me and others though is that I went in expecting the skills to be good, and I found them generally great, whereas most others probably went in expecting them to be bad/subpar and found them to be decent.

4. I can agree, it’s mostly just a matter of uptime vs. effect.

5. This is reasonable though, because the same way that multiple opponents make it harder for you to survive, multiple teammates help shore up your weaknesses, and you theirs. Two Scourges or a Scourge and a Firebrand/Tempest together is bonkers. It’s also worth noting that Nefarious Favor alone not being enough entices you into the other traits like Abrasive Grit, which I found to be very powerful in tandem.

8. My issue with Dagger is that you have to be in melee range to use it, which isn’t always optimal. Otherwise I agree and made that point as well: If a Necro is capable of upkeeping Life Force more or less forever, then how does it die?

9. Reasonable.

10. Exactly. I understand the entire Master line explicitly alters the function of placing down Shades, but it could be cool to see something just entirely focused around the Punishment skills be placed here instead.

11. Right right, I get that, but Sand Savant explicitly reads “This greater shade counts as three shades for related traits”, so technically speaking it should cause each of the Master traits to proc three times whenever you place a greater shade. This is where my contention of the English came up; is it a bug? Intended?

12. You have to consider though that a Reaper does it by spamming auto attacks and nothing else. Scourge does it while Converting two conditions into boons, converting two boons into conditions, applying barrier to allies, AoE Fearing, and AoE pulsing Torment and Cripple plus power damage. Would Dhuumfire be anemic if it was only on Manifest? Definitely, but as it is currently it’s pretty cancerous and we need to either tone it down somehow, or let it sit around for a while to see if it’s mostly just a player-skill issue or if it truly is just too much consistent damage.

13. That’s because condition-based builds are not the home for Feed From Corruption, at least not ones where all you care about is the damage.

14. Ding.

15. Agree, although even in situations where you get CC’d in a circle, sometimes you still kill people for free just by mashing F2-5 when your tail is in melee range, which is a sweet countermeasure for the Necromancer but also stems back to the complaints brought up in point #1.

16. <3

I strongly disagree with your first point on putting a Cast time on any of the shade skills. That we can instant cast our shade skills makes up for the total lack of stability on a scourge. It allows us to defend or trade damage even when chain stunned or daze locked. Putting cast times on it makes not having decent access to stability a terrible blow.

Scourge Demo Weekend Roaming Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsby6rYkxS8

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

Scourge Demo Weekend Roaming Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsby6rYkxS8

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

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Posted by: Kaladel.1670

Kaladel.1670

but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

Was thinking about that a few days ago, and I think dhuumfire will be changed or nerfed (at least in PvP).

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Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

Dhuumfire is fine it only procs once per F2-4 skill regardless of how many Shades you have on the target. If you blow 2-4 you will generate a grand total of 3 Burning stacks due to Dhuumfire.

What stacks the uber conditions is F5 proccing F1 every tick. Is 7 burning stacks over 7 seconds a bomb? What may be happening is that the F5 proccing F1 is somehow messing with how F1 is proccing Dhummfire letting you get multiple Dhuumfire procs per tick of F5.

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Posted by: EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

I feel the other 2 GM traits are still useful in their own area and we won’t always feel forced to take Sand Savant in its mode I suggested above.

If the player is mostly fighting on point, then perhaps Sand Savant is more desirable, giving full effects and larger radius.
If the player is not fighting on point, but against mobile opponents, then Demonic Lore might be better.
If the player is in an environment where boons are desirable, then feed from corruption is desirable.

I see all 3 GM traits still pick worthy and desirable in depending on the gamemodes and playstyles even if we halved the effects on untraited shades and give full effects to traited Sand Savant.

Scourge Demo Weekend Roaming Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsby6rYkxS8

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Posted by: EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

Dhuumfire is fine it only procs once per F2-4 skill regardless of how many Shades you have on the target. If you blow 2-4 you will generate a grand total of 3 Burning stacks due to Dhuumfire.

What stacks the uber conditions is F5 proccing F1 every tick. Is 7 burning stacks over 7 seconds a bomb? What may be happening is that the F5 proccing F1 is somehow messing with how F1 is proccing Dhummfire letting you get multiple Dhuumfire procs per tick of F5.

I think people are not used to watching out for burn stacks when fighting a Scourge.
Burn Guards and Burn Engis can instant down opponents with burn bursts too if the opponent isn’t wary and looking out for it.
It is a high damage condi that requires awareness and quick clearing.

Scourge Demo Weekend Roaming Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsby6rYkxS8

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

Dhuumfire is fine it only procs once per F2-4 skill regardless of how many Shades you have on the target. If you blow 2-4 you will generate a grand total of 3 Burning stacks due to Dhuumfire.

What stacks the uber conditions is F5 proccing F1 every tick. Is 7 burning stacks over 7 seconds a bomb? What may be happening is that the F5 proccing F1 is somehow messing with how F1 is proccing Dhummfire letting you get multiple Dhuumfire procs per tick of F5.

I think people are not used to watching out for burn stacks when fighting a Scourge.
Burn Guards and Burn Engis can instant down opponents with burn bursts too if the opponent isn’t wary and looking out for it.
It is a high damage condi that requires awareness and quick clearing.

Make sense.

Since people have trouble noticing our fluorescent yellow Shades (why else would they stand next to multiple overlapping ones?) noticing that they are on fire as well would be too much to ask.

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

Dhuumfire is fine it only procs once per F2-4 skill regardless of how many Shades you have on the target. If you blow 2-4 you will generate a grand total of 3 Burning stacks due to Dhuumfire.

What stacks the uber conditions is F5 proccing F1 every tick. Is 7 burning stacks over 7 seconds a bomb? What may be happening is that the F5 proccing F1 is somehow messing with how F1 is proccing Dhummfire letting you get multiple Dhuumfire procs per tick of F5.

I think people are not used to watching out for burn stacks when fighting a Scourge.
Burn Guards and Burn Engis can instant down opponents with burn bursts too if the opponent isn’t wary and looking out for it.
It is a high damage condi that requires awareness and quick clearing.

This is reasonable, given that a very important variable in all of this discussion of power level is the “L2P” issue, although it is also important to take notice of potential of reapplication: In the case of Burn Guardian and Condi Engi, their major burst is on roughly a 16 and 12 second cooldown, respectively, with minimal pressure in between. Scourge is able to reapply using abilities that are on 4, 6.5, 12, and 16 second cooldowns, making uptime a larger issue for Scourge than it is for the other two. Combine that with the fact that our bomb also applies Torment and Cripple in large quantities, among other utilities and conditions, and the difference in Pressure vs. Downtime sways pretty heavily in our favor.

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

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Posted by: Zero Solstice.9754

Zero Solstice.9754

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

I feel the other 2 GM traits are still useful in their own area and we won’t always feel forced to take Sand Savant in its mode I suggested above.

If the player is mostly fighting on point, then perhaps Sand Savant is more desirable, giving full effects and larger radius.
If the player is not fighting on point, but against mobile opponents, then Demonic Lore might be better.
If the player is in an environment where boons are desirable, then feed from corruption is desirable.

I see all 3 GM traits still pick worthy and desirable in depending on the gamemodes and playstyles even if we halved the effects on untraited shades and give full effects to traited Sand Savant.

I would agree that Feed From Corruption can stand on its own due to its nature of feeding different archetypes of builds, but I don’t really feel the same for Sand Savant versus Demonic Lore. Why take Demonic Lore, which reads “Your Torment deals 33% more damage”, when you can take Sand Savant which reads “You apply double the Torment”, especially considering how it makes bombing multiple opponents easier and enemy kiting more difficult. You can make the argument that if you’re pretty heavily invested in Condition Duration then the additional Burning probably means Demonic Lore outdamages the straight Torment from Sand Savant, but even then you’re still probably talking about a sidegrade of Damage vs. Utility more than a defining playstyle upgrade. Support Builds already want Sand Savant as it is because it makes it way easier to manage being in AoE range of maximum teammates, so they wouldn’t bat an eye at Sand Savant also simply making their Shade abilities better.

“Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it”
~Bhawb.7409

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Posted by: EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

Dhuumfire is fine it only procs once per F2-4 skill regardless of how many Shades you have on the target. If you blow 2-4 you will generate a grand total of 3 Burning stacks due to Dhuumfire.

What stacks the uber conditions is F5 proccing F1 every tick. Is 7 burning stacks over 7 seconds a bomb? What may be happening is that the F5 proccing F1 is somehow messing with how F1 is proccing Dhummfire letting you get multiple Dhuumfire procs per tick of F5.

I think people are not used to watching out for burn stacks when fighting a Scourge.
Burn Guards and Burn Engis can instant down opponents with burn bursts too if the opponent isn’t wary and looking out for it.
It is a high damage condi that requires awareness and quick clearing.

This is reasonable, given that a very important variable in all of this discussion of power level is the “L2P” issue, although it is also important to take notice of potential of reapplication: In the case of Burn Guardian and Condi Engi, their major burst is on roughly a 16 and 12 second cooldown, respectively, with minimal pressure in between. Scourge is able to reapply using abilities that are on 4, 6.5, 12, and 16 second cooldowns, making uptime a larger issue for Scourge than it is for the other two. Combine that with the fact that our bomb also applies Torment and Cripple in large quantities, among other utilities and conditions, and the difference in Pressure vs. Downtime sways pretty heavily in our favor.

I agree burn engi is more a gimmick build. You see it coming, clear early and they are not deadly.

I disagree that burn guard cannot match scourge in terms of burn reapplication. If you search for kiritsugu emeya on YouTube, he has a few burn guard videos and the burn is pressure is consistent and high.

Even for group fights, burn Guards can dish out a fair bit of burns with blocks and one consecration utility alone.

It is more about learning and knowing how all 3 classes stack burns that will help you against them.

I wrote more here on this if you are interested.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Scourge-WvW-Solo-Roaming-thoughts/first#post6715558

Scourge Demo Weekend Roaming Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsby6rYkxS8

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Posted by: EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

Hope you don’t take offense Zero.

I just want to expand more that putting a cast time on the shade skills is going to kill the scourge unless we are given decent access to stability.
This is probably one of the worst things they can do to a scourge.
I can’t imagine life on a scourge with almost zero access to stability and having cast times on his shade skills. Imagine getting stun locked and being able to do nothing.

What I will suggest is to reduce the effects done by the sand shades. Maybe by half? So whatever the scourge does around him, the shades will be half as effective.
This opens up the possibility of buffing sand savant more too. Make the trait give the shade the full effects as opposed to half if untraited.

No offense whatsoever, I love a good discussion. Putting cast times on the Shade abilities isn’t something I would want either, but it’s worth noting it as a possible change that would be made to increase counterplay from others, or at least to reduce some of the complaints of “He spammed everything all at once and now I’m dead”. In my own personal spitballing with friends of ways to fix some of the cancer-bomb that can occur, I had thought of perhaps cutting the Torment application from 2 stacks down to 1 in PvP game modes, but I still think that the biggest offender to the Condi bomb is that Dhuumfire is legitimately overtuned in tandem with Scourge.

The problem with your Sand Savant concept is that it doesn’t actually fix the problem, since many people already take Sand Savant in condition builds just for the larger radius and easier shade management; It simply makes the trait mandatory for most people to get maximum functionality.

I feel the other 2 GM traits are still useful in their own area and we won’t always feel forced to take Sand Savant in its mode I suggested above.

If the player is mostly fighting on point, then perhaps Sand Savant is more desirable, giving full effects and larger radius.
If the player is not fighting on point, but against mobile opponents, then Demonic Lore might be better.
If the player is in an environment where boons are desirable, then feed from corruption is desirable.

I see all 3 GM traits still pick worthy and desirable in depending on the gamemodes and playstyles even if we halved the effects on untraited shades and give full effects to traited Sand Savant.

I would agree that Feed From Corruption can stand on its own due to its nature of feeding different archetypes of builds, but I don’t really feel the same for Sand Savant versus Demonic Lore. Why take Demonic Lore, which reads “Your Torment deals 33% more damage”, when you can take Sand Savant which reads “You apply double the Torment”, especially considering how it makes bombing multiple opponents easier and enemy kiting more difficult. You can make the argument that if you’re pretty heavily invested in Condition Duration then the additional Burning probably means Demonic Lore outdamages the straight Torment from Sand Savant, but even then you’re still probably talking about a sidegrade of Damage vs. Utility more than a defining playstyle upgrade. Support Builds already want Sand Savant as it is because it makes it way easier to manage being in AoE range of maximum teammates, so they wouldn’t bat an eye at Sand Savant also simply making their Shade abilities better.

My argument for demonic lore actually stems from fighting mobile range kiters like deadeyes and Druids. Over the weekend, I tried both with sand savant and without.
The increase in radius was barely effective on these classes if they kited well. You won’t even come close to them, let alone drop any shades on them, sand savant or not. It was more important to take demonic lore which synergizes well with terrifying descent for more burst damage that is not dependent on your shades landing. Meaning take demonic lore plus terrifying descent builds for fights where our shades are easily made useless by the opponent.

You can see my video here. 2nd fight against the deadeye. He kited me so hard I only had 2 real chance to drop a shade on him. One was on his shadow step return circle and the other was when I stun locked him at the end. Both would not have needed the radius from sand savant to work. In the end I bursted him without the shade.

Edit: I did burst him with the shade at the end when I stun locked him lol. Point remains that the radius wasn’t that important for such fights though.
Sand savant definitely still has its uses. But not so much for solo roaming I feel.

Scourge Demo Weekend Roaming Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsby6rYkxS8

(edited by EremiteAngel.9765)

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Posted by: EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

Firebrand roaming video here from a good player in EU.
Stacks burns even faster and harder than a Scourge.
New burning Mantra and F1 tome skills are mainly AOE burning multi-target. Weapon’s auto does burn on final hit.

The only thing not going that well for them is that they lack covering condi compared to Scourge. They could possibly build for it though with sigils and such.

Also, look at this Soulbeast video from a good ranger in NA. Such fluidity, such movement. Totally different from the slow plodding Scourge lol. I’m sold to try Soulbeast. That damage is insane. I wonder if Scourge barriers can even help us survive long enough to get close to this monster, trade damage with his merged evade mode, and then survive his double GS maul =/

Scourge Demo Weekend Roaming Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsby6rYkxS8

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

Yeah, and guess who will get the nerf hammer in the end
This Soulbeast is in thief crit wonderland… that’s insane!!!

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

Yea this is an issue, cause I believe Scourge,Firebrand,Spellbreaker and Holosmith will be nerfed pre-release and I also think Deadeye wont. And there is my biggest concern cause Deadeye wrecks Scourge, its not even a contest and tho deadeye may be worse then Daredevil for.ex when it comes to taking out Scourge it does so without breaking a sweat…

this really concerns me

Underjordens Furste 80 Necro Piken-server
Servant of Dhuum

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

One of my ideas for additional support was to give the Shades an option to be able to destroy projectiles. I hope we still can get something to defend against range/kiters

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Posted by: Swiftwynd.1685

Swiftwynd.1685

Yea this is an issue, cause I believe Scourge,Firebrand,Spellbreaker and Holosmith will be nerfed pre-release and I also think Deadeye wont. And there is my biggest concern cause Deadeye wrecks Scourge, its not even a contest and tho deadeye may be worse then Daredevil for.ex when it comes to taking out Scourge it does so without breaking a sweat…

this really concerns me

I’m actually exceptionally happy that this counter exists.

If Scourge didnt have Deadeye in the picture to keep them in check, it could get extremely messy.

I hope the keep Scourge as potent as it currently is, while maintaing deadeye and power longbow ranger as its natural counter.

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

Yea this is an issue, cause I believe Scourge,Firebrand,Spellbreaker and Holosmith will be nerfed pre-release and I also think Deadeye wont. And there is my biggest concern cause Deadeye wrecks Scourge, its not even a contest and tho deadeye may be worse then Daredevil for.ex when it comes to taking out Scourge it does so without breaking a sweat…

this really concerns me

I’m actually exceptionally happy that this counter exists.

If Scourge didnt have Deadeye in the picture to keep them in check, it could get extremely messy.

I hope the keep Scourge as potent as it currently is, while maintaing deadeye and power longbow ranger as its natural counter.

So when Scourge gets nerfed to the same sad state as the rest of the Necro options are t u then still happy Deadeye and Ranger counters us ? Cause I can tell you Scourge WONT look the same 22/9, there is noway that will happen. My only hope is they touch Dhuumfire and how it works on the F-Skills and NOT the actual F-Skills but nerfed or “altered” it will be.

we have bin “altered” for 5y now. I saw something in Scourge that made me hope we could climb a few steps on the ladder, but Il bet anything Anet find a way before release or soon after to kick the ladder away from underneath us…

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Servant of Dhuum

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

My only hope is they touch Dhuumfire and how it works on the F-Skills and NOT the actual F-Skills but nerfed or “altered” it will be.

So, you are hoping for dhuumfire to be completely useless for scourge?

You do realize that removing the dhuumfire functionality from F2-F5 means that we have a GRANDMASTER trait that gives 1 burn every 15 seconds, right?

That’s supremely bad.

Dhuumfire isn’t the problem, it’s one of the few things making us PVE viable.

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

My only hope is they touch Dhuumfire and how it works on the F-Skills and NOT the actual F-Skills but nerfed or “altered” it will be.

So, you are hoping for dhuumfire to be completely useless for scourge?

You do realize that removing the dhuumfire functionality from F2-F5 means that we have a GRANDMASTER trait that gives 1 burn every 15 seconds, right?

That’s supremely bad.

Dhuumfire isn’t the problem, it’s one of the few things making us PVE viable.

Well I really dont think Dhuumfire is suppose to taick 7x on F5 , do u ?

We see what Anet does but I have a strong feeling that they will nerf Scourge condi output, and not the AoE cause they talked it up as having battlefield control.

And I really really hope they dont adjust the F-skills cd’s so then what is left ? either the Burns or Torment

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Servant of Dhuum

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Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

My only hope is they touch Dhuumfire and how it works on the F-Skills and NOT the actual F-Skills but nerfed or “altered” it will be.

So, you are hoping for dhuumfire to be completely useless for scourge?

You do realize that removing the dhuumfire functionality from F2-F5 means that we have a GRANDMASTER trait that gives 1 burn every 15 seconds, right?

That’s supremely bad.

Dhuumfire isn’t the problem, it’s one of the few things making us PVE viable.

Well I really dont think Dhuumfire is suppose to taick 7x on F5 , do u ?

We see what Anet does but I have a strong feeling that they will nerf Scourge condi output, and not the AoE cause they talked it up as having battlefield control.

And I really really hope they dont adjust the F-skills cd’s so then what is left ? either the Burns or Torment

How can you have battlefield control without some way to punish someone standing in the wrong place? Do you think a single 2 sec Torment will control anyone?

The Shades are limited in number, highly visible and immobile. Thats a lot of tradeoffs and I expect some serious power in return.

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

My only hope is they touch Dhuumfire and how it works on the F-Skills and NOT the actual F-Skills but nerfed or “altered” it will be.

So, you are hoping for dhuumfire to be completely useless for scourge?

You do realize that removing the dhuumfire functionality from F2-F5 means that we have a GRANDMASTER trait that gives 1 burn every 15 seconds, right?

That’s supremely bad.

Dhuumfire isn’t the problem, it’s one of the few things making us PVE viable.

Well I really dont think Dhuumfire is suppose to taick 7x on F5 , do u ?

We see what Anet does but I have a strong feeling that they will nerf Scourge condi output, and not the AoE cause they talked it up as having battlefield control.

And I really really hope they dont adjust the F-skills cd’s so then what is left ? either the Burns or Torment

F5 is the Actual “Shroud” so yeah I think thats no bug.

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

Well I really dont think Dhuumfire is suppose to taick 7x on F5 , do u ?

Actually, I do. The adjustment for F5 I am asking for is that it cannot stack. In some situation, right now it can stack between multiple shades, and THAT is what is broken.

Remember: Multiple burn stacks on one ability isn’t broken.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bonfire

Look at this skill, for example. Is this broken? And before you answer, remember the weapon swap trait. You can use bonfire a LOT more than it looks.
Obviously not the same, but again: If F5 does less than 4 burns, it’s likely just not good enough.

We see what Anet does but I have a strong feeling that they will nerf Scourge condi output, and not the AoE cause they talked it up as having battlefield control.

And I really really hope they dont adjust the F-skills cd’s so then what is left ? either the Burns or Torment

I expect them to nerf our condi output. The result will be that we will have another spec that is useless in PVE, to the point that serious guilds actively refuse necromancers as they do now.

And here’s the deal. Let’s assume the condi output is nerfed, dhuumfire only procs on spawning a shadow (and is therefore one of the worst GM traits in the game). What happens? Well, in PVP, there’s no battlefield control anymore. The reason scourge has battlefield control is the area denial using the F abilities. Taking the bite out of them makes them not controlly at all.

(edited by Zefiris.8297)

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

AGAIN, math.

Dhuumfire proccing on F1 only means that you can do this:
-Spawn three shades, each causing a single 3s burn
-Spawn another shade every 15 seconds → 1 burn/15s.

Result: Burst 3 burns, 1burn every 15s.

This means you are traiting a GM trait for 3 burns and then one every 15s. Can ANYONE tell me with a straight face that this is not complete garbage?

(edited by Zefiris.8297)

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

I hope u are right, we will see in less then a month, but if u think Scourge isnt going to be nerfed then I wonder if u really tried it.

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Posted by: Ryouzanpaku.1273

Ryouzanpaku.1273

I fully expect to see change of wording on all traits concerning Death Shroud.
As for the Duumfire IMHO it will proc on every F skills, but will not proc on each tick of F5

Player plays the game. MetaKitten plays the DPS meter on the golem.

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

I hope u are right, we will see in less then a month, but if u think Scourge isnt going to be nerfed then I wonder if u really tried it.

Actually, I said I expect it to be nerfed, resulting it being utterly useless in PVE.

What is strong in PVP is not strong in PVE. In fact, it’s often nowhere near good enough. Look at reaper, it does pretty good damage in PVP, and is considered a complete joke in PVE. Even good fractal guilds laugh about reapers, reaper parties are usually considered noob schools.

For good reason: I can do far more damage on an elementalist or a ranger than on a reaper. And if I bring a Condi PS Warrior, the damage I bring to the group is obscene.

As for the Duumfire IMHO it will proc on every F skills, but will not proc on each tick of F5

Will probably make our damage non-competitive, so this is indeed one of the changes I’m expecting

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

I never do PvE so that dosent bother me but being part of this Forum for 5y I can see PvE’rs have also suffered. And I also said several post above I belive a nerf will come. I dont think they touch Dhuumfire the Trait since it effects all other traitlines, Core and Reaper aso…

so most likely thet way it effects our F-Skills (F5 specially) will be reworked somehow,

Thats just how I think Anet will do it, doubt they can increase cd on F5 since we rely on that for alot of other traits NOT just Dhuumfire. how they will balance or re-work this will be intresting. I kinda hope they leave it but seriously doubt they will….

Underjordens Furste 80 Necro Piken-server
Servant of Dhuum

Scourge Beta Review and Analysis [Video]

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Posted by: Shiki.7148

Shiki.7148

My only hope is they touch Dhuumfire and how it works on the F-Skills and NOT the actual F-Skills but nerfed or “altered” it will be.

So, you are hoping for dhuumfire to be completely useless for scourge?

You do realize that removing the dhuumfire functionality from F2-F5 means that we have a GRANDMASTER trait that gives 1 burn every 15 seconds, right?

That’s supremely bad.

Dhuumfire isn’t the problem, it’s one of the few things making us PVE viable.

Well I really dont think Dhuumfire is suppose to taick 7x on F5 , do u ?

We see what Anet does but I have a strong feeling that they will nerf Scourge condi output, and not the AoE cause they talked it up as having battlefield control.

And I really really hope they dont adjust the F-skills cd’s so then what is left ? either the Burns or Torment

I’m pretty sure it is supposed to stack 7 times, BECAUSE YOU CAN JUST ESCAPE THE RADIUS UNTIL IT RUNS OUT. Seriously, people take this as if most if not all the other classes wouldn’t have mobility out the wazoo and could get the hell out of dodge (hah) before even 2 ticks landed from shroud… Not like Necro has a lot of good CC. Or movement tools to use himself as the center of the pulse. What happens here is that people are to stupid, stubborn or “lol it’s just a Necro” minded to get OFF a capture point until the shroud ran its course , meanwhile hitting from afar or just keeping cd’s to kill the scourge once the shroud ended. Nope they stand right in the middle of the bloody shade and wonder why their burn ticks.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140