Guild Wars 2

I play in the Top WvW fight guild on my server. We care not about Points Per Tick, we go around the map looking for orange swords to engage and fight. We Enjoy Combat. On my Reaper I’m generally top 5 DPS in every fight.

Here are my thoughts on Scourge. Dev’s I hope you are listening, because major changes, possibly a complete overhaul is required. I’m sorry I know you put a lot of work in and I will try to be considerate to this effort.

It is important to understand the difference in WvW from PVE and PVP. The main difference is that Raid bosses hit for 5k once every 3-6 seconds, and in WvW you have 30-60 dudes hitting for 2k 20 times a second. The only way to make it work is constant party support, moving around and dodging bombs while putting out dmg. PvP is similar to WvW but on a smaller scale. You can usually tank the 1-2 players attacking you until an immobility wears off. In WvW if you are immobilized you die.

The Good :
Scourge Condi DPS is double that of Reaper.
Dhumfire proccing on every F ability – 9 burn stacks instantly on 10 – 15 targets is Over Powered.
Barrier on allies is nice, the Heal alone is great party support mid fight.

The Bad:
Scourge has almost zero mobility. In WvW mobility = life.
The Portal is cute, but 3/4 second cast time? Are you kidding?
Scourge Elite is completely useless? If you ignore the copy paste from the other punishments it simply does an aoe Slow, and grants 3 might stacks? Is that a Troll or a Joke? Are you making fun of us?

So In summary necro gives up F1 (Stun Break), 3 (20 Percent Dmg Reduction and 3 Stacks of Stability), 2 ( Instant cast, 6 second cooldown, 600 range invulnerable leap), to gain Overpowered Ranged Condi Spam.

You ruin the Necro experience by making it immobile and unable to play with others due to vulnerability. You ruin everyone elses experience by allowing massive condi spam, which is what is already wrong with WvW in the first place, and you add insult to injury here by making every ability on the bar rip boons.

How to fix:

1. Give us a leap, either on torch or fix our portal to 600 range instant cast, instead of 3/4 second cast time interuptable. Also please make the Sand Swell lower cooldown, 28 seconds is way too long, 16 seconds would seem reasonable.

2. Make the large sand shade the default so we don’t have to waste a grand master trait on it. The smaller sand shades should require the trait.

3. Reduce Barrier Decay on the Necromancer. Necro will be heavily focused so give him a usable defense. In WvW we are taking about 280k dmg in a 20 second window, our heal is going to mitigate about 8-9k of that, currently barrier is cute, but it just gets blasted away instantly. Its nothing compared to distort, or shroud.

Question would anyone even take the smaller sand shades as a gm trait? In my opinion the greater sand shade is superior.

On the 3rd point i can only agree with. Barriers and especially the decay/timer need adjustments.

What build do you run currently for your GvG Reaper? Traits, weapons, runes?

3 shades:
1. before fight place 1 shade where ranged is and let the ranged know.
2. on fights when the melee leap/engage place 1 shade on it and use f3 then f2.
place the third one where needed.(e.g next to downed allies or enemy)
Ranged/focus should know where your shade is and if they say help just pop f3 f2 and f4.

1 shade:
place it on melee engages use f3 then f2 then place it on downed allies or enemies and use when needed.(e.g if ally need ress, use f3 then f2 if there is only ranged pressure, or f4 for melee pressure.

if you are using transfusion, use f4 with care since it requires alot of LF.

On my GvG reaper, I’m Cele Hybrid, Not exactly Meta-Battle Build but close I have a newish build which does more dmg, but I’m not making it public, since it won’t matter in a few weeks anyway.

As for my current Scourge Build.

Ether Blood Magic Transfusion, or Curses Parasitic Contagion.
Soul reaping required for Speed of Shadows / Vial Persistence / Dhumfire.

Scourge Traits are all rather Meh, except we need to be able to pick both Feed from Corruption and Sand Savant. Thats why I’m hoping the Devs will see sense in that we don’t need the smaller shades.

Another Thing i just noticed with Necro Traits: Blood Magic needs some adjustments. Wells have great synergy with Scourge, but we can’t use Wells and transfusion at the same time. Please move the Vampiric Rituals trait to the Middle row so we can pick it with transfusion instead of having to chose between those two. Vampiric Aura isn’t really that great for Scourge, except as a support buff, wells would be an alternate option possibly. Giving us Vampiric Ritual or Vampiric Presence on the same Selection would seem to allow for more build diversity.

You dead wrong about the Elite tho, comboed with Sadistic Trait it pulses Burns AoE, and has 60sec CD. Imho I think its now the best Elite. Wont comment on rest agree with some, disagree with some.

Intresting info to hear still

The 3 shades are just too clunky to use. Shade casting / recasting takes so much time it significantly reduces any of those DPS or support gains the spec has because you can’t use them in fast paced organized combat because you are casting / recasting shades.

the single shade trait eliminates vast part of the dps. while picking it up opens up a bit better support, its still quite clunky. its just too slow and limiting.

i do like the torch as it is now, that is a nice offhand.

on the roaming / small scale side, it does better, especially in hybrid builds.

i have 3k armor, 24k+ hp and got insta gibbed by 1 backstab + 1 heartseeker from a deadeye (just cause they’re deadeyes doesn’t mean they have to wield rifles) just before i logged and came to check the forums. how effective is having a barrier when you don’t even get to cast it ? forget about if its big / small, you don’t even get to use it.

so how does scourge compare to that ?

I think the problem is you’re comparing Scourge with Reaper.

Scourge gains more (mediocre) boon corrupt skills + burning + party support in exchange for personal stability.

“Nothing Can Save You!” is a stronger skill than the scourge punishment skills ; Reapers packing Path of Corruption also had a boon corrupt on 2 boons.

Superior sigil of Torment’s 5 cooldown was probably not factored into Demonic Lore. However, I feel that Feed from Corruption is likely a stronger trait for WvW if for some reason you run a power build Scourge.

With reaper’s deathly chill you don’t have as many options to induce condi damage.
Staff marks lose that advantage (fear / chill —> bleed) in exchange for torment. This makes scepter 3 / Feast of Corruption a condi powerhouse especially with expertise boosts from Sand Soul & possibly Fell Beacon.

Also without the option of Relentless Pursuit , the Scourge is more susceptible to CC.

Because shades are so important , life force generation from Soul Marks and/or Nourishing Rot is necessary.

I believe the trait change to Speed of Shadows (stops you from using Soul Marks) was to fulfill the lack of stab on Scourge: it grants swiftness and removes movement impairing conditions when entering shroud. Foot in the Grave also grants stability, but you lose the burning from Dhuumfire (which isn’t as big as on condi Reaper since Reaper shroud auto has no condi on its own)

I also tested Scourge in WvW. After i tested it with full Trailblazer i realised there is no point to even evaluate the damage because you only get false reports due to bugged burning ticks on downstates (thats why scourges get heavy dps spikes).

But honestly if you take 280k dmg in 20 seconds.. your positioning is terrible

Judging by the fact you attempt to validate yourself at the beginning of the post, the fact that you cant survive immobility in WvW (lol stunbreaks genius), and the fact that your somehow suggesting that you should actually be able to survive a 280k burst without using an ability like rev shield 5 that immobilizes you? lol please just stop bro we all know your bad.

That aside lets talk shall we? The point of the large shade trait is really the CD reduction because your not wrong that CD is punishing as all hell. but losing 2 shades is actually a weakness to that trait. Being able to have a shade on your front line to pulse cleanses and barriers while two shades are on the enemy line pulsing heat and fear makes for more use than one large shade in either position. The burn procs are indeed a little strong but its no more overpowered than reaper bleeds. Plus I think your under estimating the power of actually gaining every boon you corrupt or remove in WvW. you realize how many stacks of stability you corrupt? you can max might and perma stab fury vigor swiftness yourself not appreciating that is just foolish. Now your not wrong the portal is a little weak but its not the cast time that makes it so its the pathing restrictions being the same as any other teleport as opposed to being mesmer based objectively it would work best if you could use it at any range so long as your summoning to a sand shade. now general restrictions like no teleporting up walls would still exist but making it more free would be a major boon over simply removing the cast time. As for barriers the decay starts a little too soon i feel they took that rapid pace timing from overwatch but im confident anet will figure that out quickly.

Realistically scourge is the most WvW viable of all the new elites and in a WvW setting its much stronger than reaper I already miss being able to play it. You sir are just playing it wrong your treating it like a vanilla necro not its own unique class and thats going to burn you on each and every one of the new elite specs the ONLY class that got simpler was rangers and mesmer the rest got a lot more complicated.

https://youtu.be/eWa5guK8C84
Here’s some Scourge PoV from me and my guild’s demo weekend. Idk what you meant from the first line to be honest. Lol. Coming from a barely average guild I wasnt really having any of the problems you were having about immobs or being caught out alot. Sure, wcourge has less mobility, but that doesnt necessarily make it worse. You just had to have a different kind of mindset than a reaper would in terms of positioning yourself. The scourge elite is actually pretty nice. The times you get in with your melee frontline party and the enemies have run out of spellbreaker domes, sticking with enemies and pulsing the boon corrupt on top of corrupting more through your shades just destroys enemies. From a support stand point the savant trait feels better and more convenient but from a dps standpoint demonic felt better in my opinion. You seem to have all these grievances about Scourge yet you yourself claim Scourge outputs about twice the DPS a reaper could. The case for condis being toned down is what I agree on though. It just seems like the mechanics and gameplay for scourge is there, it just needs to get toned down. Our guild had a fight in an enemies garri one time and was fighting a way larger group just fine, and personally my scourge was able to cleanse 1000 condis on my allies, 700 boonstrips, and top dps (according to dps meter) and decent barriers all at the same time. That just sounds way too overtuned in my opnion.

Rangerdeity.5847:

Being able to have a shade on your front line to pulse cleanses and barriers while two shades are on the enemy line pulsing heat and fear makes for more use than one large shade in either position.

While this is true in theory, in practice it is unlikely to work. By the time you got all 3 up both zergs would have moved away.

Lahmia.2193:

Rangerdeity.5847:

Being able to have a shade on your front line to pulse cleanses and barriers while two shades are on the enemy line pulsing heat and fear makes for more use than one large shade in either position.

While this is true in theory, in practice it is unlikely to work. By the time you got all 3 up both zergs would have moved away.

learn to dance. zergs have predictable movements. also commanders tend to go left WvW is basically a game of left turns until you reach your destination. You think im kidding watch them closely in combat 4 lefts for every 3 rights.

That said even if your late your shades are still indiscriminate if the one you placed on your front line is now on the enemy frontline thats perfectly fine thats a good spot for it to be. the one you placed on your backline is now on your frontline? well that works i guess. Scourge requires a more flexible mindset than the other elites. I dont suggest building rotations I suggest reactive skill use. the only thing i suggest keeping on rotation is returning shades to the field the moment the CD ends.

Meetshield.1756:

I play in the Top WvW fight guild on my server. We care not about Points Per Tick, we go around the map looking for orange swords to engage and fight. We Enjoy Combat. On my Reaper I’m generally top 5 DPS in every fight…

So In summary necro gives up F1 (Stun Break), 3 (20 Percent Dmg Reduction and 3 Stacks of Stability), 2 ( Instant cast, 6 second cooldown, 600 range invulnerable leap), to gain Overpowered Ranged Condi Spam.

You ruin the Necro experience by making it immobile and unable to play with others due to vulnerability. You ruin everyone elses experience by allowing massive condi spam, which is what is already wrong with WvW in the first place, and you add insult to injury here by making every ability on the bar rip boons.

so…
- F1 stunbreak, besides roamers, not everybody uses it. power reaper will often go +50% crit in shroud, and condi will sometimes go dhuumfire… IF they use soul reaping.
btw the F1 stunbreak stays on F5 when playing scourge. its on a 16-20sec CD. which is not too bad, since most stunbreaks have a CD of more than 20sec (utilities)

- since when is the leap on reaper invulnerable? its never been!

- necro really is immobile. the moment necro has roots on him, he is dead. not a single escape (that has been fixed with the recent update to SoS that removes immob on entering shroud, but on any Necro spec this is completely negated by the fact, that any class with immob has just to wait for the necro to go in shroud… nail it and pewpewpew gg. and remember, cd on shroud has been hard capped at 10 sec aswell. no cd reduction anymore). blaming anet for years – shroud doesnt help you in the way they always claim it would/should.
(although there are some scenarios with horn 5, spectral armor, spectral walk or traited signets that allow you to stay in shroud for very long, since each enemy hit – or each hit on you GIVES shroud… very limited use ofc, since shroud skills are kittening dps – not speaking of burst together with e.g. wells).

- in wvw however, scourge just becomes a backliner like any core staff ele. with shades projecting its support and damage. it requires a different playstyle. like core necro, the new spec isnt ball-meta (if that even exists in PoF).
transfusion can also be a big deal then, while dancing around the clash of your melee vs enemy melee, you can portrezz them out.

- the condi dmg of scourge on the other hand. ridicolous in wvw. 15-20 people hit with shades. i can understand the need of many conditions for pve, because they are very short based conditions (6sec max for some WITH expertise…) but in wvw there is a need of a lower cap than 20 people hit… otherwise scourge bombs better than any meteor shower (and that is power based and imo already too strong vs bigger numbers, since its hits 5 (?) targets with each meteor).

Meetshield.1756:

I play in the Top WvW fight guild on my server. We care not about Points Per Tick, we go around the map looking for orange swords to engage and fight. We Enjoy Combat. On my Reaper I’m generally top 5 DPS in every fight.

k.

Meetshield.1756:

Here are my thoughts on Scourge. Dev’s I hope you are listening, because major changes, possibly a complete overhaul is required. I’m sorry I know you put a lot of work in and I will try to be considerate to this effort.

It is important to understand the difference in WvW from PVE and PVP. The main difference is that Raid bosses hit for 5k once every 3-6 seconds, and in WvW you have 30-60 dudes hitting for 2k 20 times a second. The only way to make it work is constant party support, moving around and dodging bombs while putting out dmg. PvP is similar to WvW but on a smaller scale. You can usually tank the 1-2 players attacking you until an immobility wears off. In WvW if you are immobilized you die.

Quite often with the amount of boons, auras, and healing that allies can put out you are quite sustainable if you don’t stand directly in all the red circles. This, combined with your relatively high toughness from a celestial build, make you pretty durable even with a person or two focusing you. If you eat a full bomb you’re probably dead no matter your class.

Meetshield.1756:

The Good :
Scourge Condi DPS is double that of Reaper.
Dhumfire proccing on every F ability – 9 burn stacks instantly on 10 – 15 targets is Over Powered.
Barrier on allies is nice, the Heal alone is great party support mid fight.

The Bad:
Scourge has almost zero mobility. In WvW mobility = life.
The Portal is cute, but 3/4 second cast time? Are you kidding?
Scourge Elite is completely useless? If you ignore the copy paste from the other punishments it simply does an aoe Slow, and grants 3 might stacks? Is that a Troll or a Joke? Are you making fun of us?

9-10 burn stacks would have to be on a downed target with Demonic Lore, which was bugged to have no ICD on downed targets. The reality is that once that is fixed Scourge DPS will be significantly lower since you won’t have the inflation from hitting downed targets with massive stacks of burn.

-Scourge also has much higher personal cleanse from F2 and plays a lot different than normal Reaper, they’re not quite as hopelessly slow as you make it seem.
-Portal is fine as is, once groups actually get a chance to play with it I think it will be very useful to simply skip a clash and pop on someone’s backline.
-Scourge elite is fine, though I do wish it had an extra pulse or two.

Meetshield.1756:

So In summary necro gives up F1 (Stun Break), 3 (20 Percent Dmg Reduction and 3 Stacks of Stability), 2 ( Instant cast, 6 second cooldown, 600 range invulnerable leap), to gain Overpowered Ranged Condi Spam.

You ruin the Necro experience by making it immobile and unable to play with others due to vulnerability. You ruin everyone elses experience by allowing massive condi spam, which is what is already wrong with WvW in the first place, and you add insult to injury here by making every ability on the bar rip boons.

-None of the top guilds run Soul Reaping on their Celestial Reapers, instead almost all running Spite/Curses/Reaper for the extra damage and boon corruption gained from taking Spite and Curses.
-Losing Infusing Terror sucks but Scourge also does not play melee range in shroud like Reaper does, so it is quite understandable.
-The dash in reaper shroud has a cast time, can be interrupted, and most certainly does not make you invulnerable, however convenient it is.
- Scourge is more than playable as is in zergs, and it is quite effective in doing so while helping allies via barrier and frequent small doses of cleanse and barrier from F2 and F3.
-The boon rip of Scourge is fine, especially when you look at the other new elites’ boon application abilities. Warriors’ new elite skill does significantly more boon rip to 10 targets every half-second while also blocking projectiles in a wide area.

Meetshield.1756:

How to fix:

1. Give us a leap, either on torch or fix our portal to 600 range instant cast, instead of 3/4 second cast time interuptable. Also please make the Sand Swell lower cooldown, 28 seconds is way too long, 16 seconds would seem reasonable.

2. Make the large sand shade the default so we don’t have to waste a grand master trait on it. The smaller sand shades should require the trait.

3. Reduce Barrier Decay on the Necromancer. Necro will be heavily focused so give him a usable defense. In WvW we are taking about 280k dmg in a 20 second window, our heal is going to mitigate about 8-9k of that, currently barrier is cute, but it just gets blasted away instantly. Its nothing compared to distort, or shroud.

1. No, torch is fine without mobility (I would only make the #5 skill hit 3 targets if I were to buff it). 16 seconds is far too low a CD on Sand Swell especially if you are traiting Punishments.
2. No, taking the large shade for convenience reduces potential DPS from not taking Demonic Lore, it’s a trade-off and should stay as is.
3. I want barrier to last longer than 2 seconds as well, but as it’s pretty strong. If you are taking 280k damage in 20 seconds you need to stop standing in red circles, simple as that. Distort is a distinct mechanic to Mesmer/Chronomancer and is completely different than the tools we have access to as Scourge and Reaper. Don’t forget Reaper Shroud reduces damage by 50% innately.