Guild Wars 2

Hi,

For those that dont know me let me attach some credibility to my name for a moment. I was on team ASAP Zerg, semi-pro esport team. Long time pvper and necro player. Just wanted to clarify that scourge is indeed too strong. The people defending it have no clue what they are saying. Im guessing they are going to nerf the burn damage. You press buttons and things just die when playing the scourge.

I agree for PvP when just stacking on points, but it will need split balance to stay relevant in PvE.

In WvW I hear it’s the same as PvP, just without cap points.

yea its a strong Elite Spez as it stands now (our first strong ever) needs to be adjusted slightly, they need to be careful with that tho. Spellbreaker,Firebrand, Holosmith is also up there in being to strong. Renegade needs some adjusted/rework in the other direction.

we see what happens

I’m still not convinced it needs any nerfing. After all, after the first beta or two, people were screaming Reaper was way too strong as well. Turns out, once they figured out that “hovering Necro=dodge”, Reaper really wasn’t much to be worried about.

Once they figure out that “shade=don’t stand here,” they’ll reach the same conclusion.

I sincerely believe scourge needs some PvP nerfing. Not much, but some.

-Some shade abilities do stack. letting multiple shades affect the same target. They definitely should not do this, this interaction needs a nerf/bugfix
-The pulse on F5 is absurd in PvP

Do notice that I am absolutely a scourge advocate, and want to play one. I am not saying this to ruin the class. Quite the opposite, scourge as it is now is probably my favorite idea of a class in the game. And I absolutely fear that they will overnerf us to appease complaints.

But some changes are probably warranted.

Actually the scourge is fine.

It’s the necro traits making scourge fine. I don’t think scourge needs a nerf at all but maybe dhummfire (if I spelled that right) needs a rework with how it works.

I’m a PvE player myself so can’t say much about PvP…..but generally if you stand in a big red circle and don’t leave shouldn’t you kinda deserve to die?

Sylent.3165:

maybe dhummfire (if I spelled that right) needs a rework with how it works.?

That’d really kill our PVE viability, I fear, unless it’s limited to reducing the fire pulsing of F5. Dhuumfire is the very reason scourge has this high a burst potential (sustained with the right weapon choice in PVE…right now).

Before we as for nerfs, we need to ask a few questions
Do we have any blocks ?
Do we have any evades?
Do we have any imunites?
Do we have any steath ?
Do we have any reflects ?

No we dont, thats why its easy to lock a necro, hes just going to absorve the damage.
Any other class have a few skills, that they know they are ok for a few seconds , waiting for a heal or just for desingage, thats huge.
Now we even lost our " 2nd hp bar"
If u are dead u cant do any damage, and its super easy to just target a necro, we are ment to be an atrition class right?, well i dont feel that way, what i feel is that every one just focus necro, cause its too easy to lock him.
Necro is the only class that cant play zerk amulet, because we have no way to negate damage, we need constant peeling if we use a zerk amulet.

So ,no i dont agree in nerfing dps from necros, i even think they should buff barriers, cause 1 or 2 secs its not so great when we are beeing focused.

Prince Vingador.8067:

Before we as for nerfs, we need to ask a few questions
Do we have any blocks ?
Do we have any evades?
Do we have any imunites?
Do we have any steath ?
Do we have any reflects ?

No we dont, thats why its easy to lock a necro, hes just going to absorve the damage.
Any other class have a few skills, that they know they are ok for a few seconds , waiting for a heal or just for desingage, thats huge.
Now we even lost our " 2nd hp bar"
If u are dead u cant do any damage, and its super easy to just target a necro, we are ment to be an atrition class right?, well i dont feel that way, what i feel is that every one just focus necro, cause its too easy to lock him.
Necro is the only class that cant play zerk amulet, because we have no way to negate damage, we need constant peeling if we use a zerk amulet.

So ,no i dont agree in nerfing dps from necros, i even think they should buff barriers, cause 1 or 2 secs its not so great when we are beeing focused.

None of this is an issue in WvW, though, where over the weekend we saw zergs running multiple Scourges that added significantly to their strength with boon corrupts, barriers and condi removal. We only had one scourge on our side and ended up melting to all the incoming condis. If nothing changes with Scourge before it goes live, it will be a mandatory trait line for WvW zergs and zerg busting.

Sylvyn.4750:

Prince Vingador.8067:

Before we as for nerfs, we need to ask a few questions
Do we have any blocks ?
Do we have any evades?
Do we have any imunites?
Do we have any steath ?
Do we have any reflects ?

No we dont, thats why its easy to lock a necro, hes just going to absorve the damage.
Any other class have a few skills, that they know they are ok for a few seconds , waiting for a heal or just for desingage, thats huge.
Now we even lost our " 2nd hp bar"
If u are dead u cant do any damage, and its super easy to just target a necro, we are ment to be an atrition class right?, well i dont feel that way, what i feel is that every one just focus necro, cause its too easy to lock him.
Necro is the only class that cant play zerk amulet, because we have no way to negate damage, we need constant peeling if we use a zerk amulet.

So ,no i dont agree in nerfing dps from necros, i even think they should buff barriers, cause 1 or 2 secs its not so great when we are beeing focused.

None of this is an issue in WvW, though, where over the weekend we saw zergs running multiple Scourges that added significantly to their strength with boon corrupts, barriers and condi removal. We only had one scourge on our side and ended up melting to all the incoming condis. If nothing changes with Scourge before it goes live, it will be a mandatory trait line for WvW zergs and zerg busting.

Scourge seems just made for WvW zerging, really, but that game mode has never been a problem for necro. However the problem in PvP is: a support spec, like druid, former aura share ele or even support bunker guard from a long time back, can only support a theme if it can keep itself alive. You cant properly support your allies if you have to fight for your life.

Also, i think its damage in PvP really is okay. Yeah, its bursty and can be devastating, but really, any other class that specs for a lot of damage, can deal a lot of damage. even a vanilla staff ele, or cheesy builds like burn guard. The difference is how long can you stay alive, if you go full glasscannon? A warrior can this for an enormous time, while being flexible, even the more CC based weapons like hammer can deal a lot of damage.

Scourge does not really have that option. It can go for that bursty route, with some boonhate but thats it. A dedicated spellbreaker of thief / daredevil / deadeye can bring you down. Even a core longbow ranger can.

Also, the support from scourge, the defensive aspects of it like barrier are a lot “harder” to use like druids or ele support. Ele can mash buttons in a clutch and heals everything around them at a good range. A scourge has to set up for this, which can be a pain if youre getting focused.

People will learn that shades hurt over time. the only point ANet should balance around is the personal defense and the true “support” aspect of barriers. These are outshined by similar specs if you invest into them.

Well he is correct in that Scourge needs higher dps output or pressure to make up for the almost complete lack of defences, not just what he listed but also the fact that we now gave up Shroud. As I said it needs some tweaking but dps needs to be higher then Core & Reaper due to not having ANY defence, barrier as defence is a JOKE compare to Death – & Reapershroud.

Maybe you guys don’t play other professions, but it finally felt like Necros had a build that was similar to other professions. Condi thieves, burn guardians, chrono and 1 shot mesmers all were able to deliver extreme damage with even more escapes/immunities/blocks and other scaling defenses.

The extreme AOE damage is basically the quasi defense of Scourge because there is literally no defense to cc or zerging a Scourge compared to other professions.

The more I read the Guild wars 2 profession forums the more I feel like I stepped into some copy of the League of Legends forums where everybody just wants to nerf everything right off the bat. Scourge plays on area denial. Maybe people are not used to this? Because reaper and core necro only had wells where you could move out easily whereas shades can cover more ground and stay longer to pulse damage? C’mon guys. Let the dust settle first and have people adapt and learn that engaging the Scourge with his shades in melee isn’t a good idea then go from there.

Jelzouki.4128:

Hi,

For those that dont know me let me attach some credibility to my name for a moment. I was on team ASAP Zerg, semi-pro esport team. Long time pvper and necro player. Just wanted to clarify that scourge is indeed too strong. The people defending it have no clue what they are saying. Im guessing they are going to nerf the burn damage. You press buttons and things just die when playing the scourge.

Let me translate:

“I know you guys have no idea who I am, but let me assure you that I’m e-famous. Nerf Scourge because people can hit buttons and kill people. I’m not going to bother to present any evidence, analysis, or reference points. K thx bye.”

Seriously, what’s even up with the nerf posts on every single board? We got to play the specs for ONE WEEKEND. Nobody has any idea what they are doing and no theorycraft or strategy has been developed around including the altered environment.

Threads like this one are why Necros can’t have nice things.

Ramoth.9064:

Jelzouki.4128:

Hi,

For those that dont know me let me attach some credibility to my name for a moment. I was on team ASAP Zerg, semi-pro esport team. Long time pvper and necro player. Just wanted to clarify that scourge is indeed too strong. The people defending it have no clue what they are saying. Im guessing they are going to nerf the burn damage. You press buttons and things just die when playing the scourge.

So just another nobody. Gotcha.

lol

Tiresias.6473:

Seriously, what’s even up with the nerf posts on every single board? We got to play the specs for ONE WEEKEND. Nobody has any idea what they are doing and no theorycraft or strategy has been developed around including the altered environment

The thing is, there are genuine “bugs” (assuming the dev commentary is accurate, which it should be) with the spec that should not work the way they do. These, in specific situations, do provide absolutely ridiculous damage.

This is what other classes see, since a good scourge player can just kill people faster than a thief when using these quirks, aka shade overlapping.

These should be fixed.

Zefiris.8297:

Tiresias.6473:

Seriously, what’s even up with the nerf posts on every single board? We got to play the specs for ONE WEEKEND. Nobody has any idea what they are doing and no theorycraft or strategy has been developed around including the altered environment

The thing is, there are genuine “bugs” (assuming the dev commentary is accurate, which it should be) with the spec that should not work the way they do. These, in specific situations, do provide absolutely ridiculous damage.

This is what other classes see, since a good scourge player can just kill people faster than a thief when using these quirks, aka shade overlapping.

These should be fixed.

There should be a penalty for standing in multiple stationary shades. Just like there is if you face tank 100B or Maul.

If people can’t move out of multiple overlapping stationary flashing neon lights then I have no problem with them dying and doing so quickly.

Area denial without punishment is not any denial at all.

As a necro main I’ll say scourge is fine the way it is, even the barrier. If a scourge is killing you easily you’re probably doing one of two things. Stood next to a shade or the scourge, or you’ve gone for a million boons and you’re now surprised the scourge has corrupted them all. Fight from range, stay out of red circles and go boonless. Congrats you beat the scourge. Each spec has its weaknesses and strengths, don’t assume your strength is your opponents weakness.

Maxzero.4032:

There should be a penalty for standing in multiple stationary shades. Just like there is if you face tank 100B or Maul.

If people can’t move out of multiple overlapping stationary flashing neon lights then I have no problem with them dying and doing so quickly.

Area denial without punishment is not any denial at all.

P R E A C H

I was running my support reaper last week (PvP) and ended to ress 12 times my mates. Multiple ress at the same time. And this wasn’t cause scourge its OP but cause the “pros” can’t stand out of Plaguelands. They died again and again, now.. maybe multiple scourges could be very strong in zergs but “stacked X class complain” isn’t exactly a news. I only hope that the complainers werent the ones perished under core necromancer’s skills.

And seriously, GW2 isn’t a game stranger to damage spikes and to counter that professions have resistance, cleanses, blocks, immunes, evades and mobility and now even barriers.

Is this the first time that WvWers have to fight zerg’s condi pressuse?

Maxzero.4032:

There should be a penalty for standing in multiple stationary shades. Just like there is if you face tank 100B or Maul.

If people can’t move out of multiple overlapping stationary flashing neon lights then I have no problem with them dying and doing so quickly.

Area denial without punishment is not any denial at all.

This. We shouldn’t be nerfed ’cause some people are too stupid to use their brain in PvP.

Tiresias.6473:

Jelzouki.4128:

Hi,

For those that dont know me let me attach some credibility to my name for a moment. I was on team ASAP Zerg, semi-pro esport team. Long time pvper and necro player. Just wanted to clarify that scourge is indeed too strong. The people defending it have no clue what they are saying. Im guessing they are going to nerf the burn damage. You press buttons and things just die when playing the scourge.

Let me translate:

“I know you guys have no idea who I am, but let me assure you that I’m e-famous. Nerf Scourge because people can hit buttons and kill people. I’m not going to bother to present any evidence, analysis, or reference points. K thx bye.”

Seriously, what’s even up with the nerf posts on every single board? We got to play the specs for ONE WEEKEND. Nobody has any idea what they are doing and no theorycraft or strategy has been developed around including the altered environment.

Threads like this one are why Necros can’t have nice things.

I think you’re deluded. All I was doing is reassuring readers that I am not an inexperienced necro player.

And what I said was all the evidence I needed. I built a condition build that absolutely melts people if you just mash your shroud bar. Threads like these come up after beta weekends to give feedback to the devs. Post like yours are what cause flaming and cause threads to derail because of your kittened comment.

Right now, I am placing odds on a severe nerf to Scourge affecting corruption rate and burning dps.

However, I also foresee a reduction in boon dependency in WvW and PvP. Scourge’s corruption rate cannot be an accident. The balance team may be trying to cut back on boon dependency. This is just a theory, though.

In PvP I think people just don’t know how to fight it. Once they do you will see very fast that you are just knocked all over the place. Stunned into next week. Scourge has exactly the same weaknesses as before. As for burning? Lots of builds in PvP run that, burn guard is notorious and it runs just as much if not more. It’s also not the most popular guardian build so that should tell you alot.

If you nerf scourge though, specifically in WvW they will be dropped as there are other classes in this expansion that will then be better support.

Basically we currently walk a super fine line, we are viable at least for a moment but a good nerf or two to scourge abilities like they did to reaper and we will find ourselves back on those shelves. People will just go back to wanting wells only from us.

I think OP have some serious L2P issues. Asking for nerfs without any analysis, numbers or evidence, just proves how inexperienced he is. This is more a cry post than a constructive discussion.

Maybe scourge is stronger than reaper, but that could mean the latter needs buffs, not the other way around.

Looking at its kit and what some people could do over the weekend, it seems strong but, PvP wise, I’m still sorta unconvinced with what it can do. Still has the problem core necro has with being CC’d to death.

PvE…maybe some viability, I’m still a bit unconvinced. Barriers just don’t seem like that strong of a group defensive mechanic.

They should wait some time so people learn to play against it before nerfing. The people who previewed it heavily know how powerful it is but those who did not are not likely to understand how to counter it yet. Once that counter play ceiling is reached thats when the “nerf or nah” discussion should commence.

Jelzouki.4128:

Hi,

For those that dont know me let me attach some credibility to my name for a moment. I was on team ASAP Zerg, semi-pro esport team. Long time pvper and necro player. Just wanted to clarify that scourge is indeed too strong. The people defending it have no clue what they are saying. Im guessing they are going to nerf the burn damage. You press buttons and things just die when playing the scourge.

Every class presses buttons to make things die. Credibility comes natural, if the circumstances permit, by that statement you only show that your opinion is not any bit more important than from anybody else on this forum.

I don’t know which my statement’s side is going to land on (needs a nerf / doesn’t need a nerf):

As my signature suggests, I have been a thief main (for at least 6-7 months) in WvW and I believe that a good necro is a dead one. Couldn’t stand how bad they were and what they were lacking which made them easy targets, as well as the quick 20+ stacks of bleed you can apply (spin-to-win doesnt help this lol)

Watching the scourge game play when Anet unveiled it intrigued me. No shroud (technically) this time, and giving a “barrier” mechanic. This meant a weaker 2nd HP pool access. Its different and wondered how they were going to survive.

After I played the classes I was really interested in, I gave scourge a try. The Sand Shade mechanic was interesting (I personally found the 1 large one better than the 3 small, however I tested this mostly in group fights…in smaller fights, the 3 were more useful). Once I nailed down a rotation with them, it felt good. Not OP, not overly “unbalanced” given what the scourge lacks, but it felt good

The direction it was created for (corruption/boon removal) gave the necro another reason to be a corruptionmancer, yet the slotted abilities were support-y and torch was what I thought it should be.

These amazed me enough to pursue the creation of one once the expansion is live. Its definitely suited better for bigger scale fights (like the mirage for smaller scale / 1v1 but thats another discussion for another forum)

The traits synergize well for condi builds, however the class seemed it was made with condis in mind, so hopefully this is a sign that condi damage/applications will be looked at sooner than later by Anet. There isn’t many strong options for straight DPS builds for scourge, however it is def a good condi contender.

TL:DR; I love killing reapers/necros but scourge may be my 1st “ZvZ or GvG” class.

Jelzouki.4128:

Tiresias.6473:

Jelzouki.4128:

Hi,

For those that dont know me let me attach some credibility to my name for a moment. I was on team ASAP Zerg, semi-pro esport team. Long time pvper and necro player. Just wanted to clarify that scourge is indeed too strong. The people defending it have no clue what they are saying. Im guessing they are going to nerf the burn damage. You press buttons and things just die when playing the scourge.

Let me translate:

“I know you guys have no idea who I am, but let me assure you that I’m e-famous. Nerf Scourge because people can hit buttons and kill people. I’m not going to bother to present any evidence, analysis, or reference points. K thx bye.”

Seriously, what’s even up with the nerf posts on every single board? We got to play the specs for ONE WEEKEND. Nobody has any idea what they are doing and no theorycraft or strategy has been developed around including the altered environment.

Threads like this one are why Necros can’t have nice things.

I think you’re deluded. All I was doing is reassuring readers that I am not an inexperienced necro player.

And what I said was all the evidence I needed. I built a condition build that absolutely melts people if you just mash your shroud bar. Threads like these come up after beta weekends to give feedback to the devs. Post like yours are what cause flaming and cause threads to derail because of your kittened comment.

No. No no no no no. Nope. Nuuuuuuuuuu.

You don’t get to do this. You don’t get to turn this back on me. Not a chance.

Read your original post. You claim to be “someone of note” than make a no-evidence, no-reference claim.

That’s actually a formal debate fallacy referred to as an “Argument From Authority”, where someone claims to be an expert on a matter (with no proof of credentials) and then makes a claim (with no evidence or reference to support it), refusing to follow through on the argument.

You even took it to the next level with ANOTHER logical fallacy: circular reasoning. Specifically “And what I said was all the evidence I needed.” In other words, the “what I said is true because I said it” argument.

That’s not going to fly here. This isn’t the World of Warcraft forums. You’ll find a higher bar to clear here.

Go look at some of the threads that ACTUALLY provide feedback, some of which even have gameplay and analysis videos attached. At a minimum, the threat starters are talking in very specific terms about what is good and bad about Scourge, including an analysis of where there are potential pivot points to alter the class if necessary.

Look, I’m sure you’re a great guy. You might even be modestly well-known in your social circles. But your argument is crap, so people are going to call you out on it.

YOU made the claim. YOU provide the evidence. That’s how it works.

Nobody here is just going to take your word for it.

It’s always funny to me when people try to brag about being eSports pros in GW2. Nobody gives a kitten.

The Scourge is really strong when player linger near him for to long, blow there cleanse at wrong time aso.. Its absolutely crap at range, its by far the worst necro Specc to deal with range dps. Core Necro had Deathshroud to deal with range, Reaper had both Chill-a-plenty and leap, pull on weapon (how shiite it may be) Scourge has placement of Shades and atm a disabled 900 r Portal (still dosent reach).

Scourge AoE condi dps is far greater then Core or Reaper, I said “AoE” -dps and its that fact Anet ment when they talked about battlefield control in the announcment. But iv still seen DH,Deadeye’s and LB Rangers dance around me this weekend and when they focus you from 1200+ your barrier aint doing shiite.

Nerf just a little to much and this Elite is dead, its skillbased, no-shroud Necro with a best defence is a good offence mentality.

Vitali.5039:

And seriously, GW2 isn’t a game stranger to damage spikes and to counter that professions have resistance, cleanses, blocks, immunes, evades and mobility and now even barriers.

Is this the first time that WvWers have to fight zerg’s condi pressuse?

It’s the first time having a lot of pre-stacked boons worked against a WvW zerg, as they ended up being corrupted. With more stacks of condis added on top of the usual ones, they can’t all be cleared in time, and barriers, which scourges also have, only delay the effects a bit. Not complaining…just pointing out a mechanic that might require zergs to adjust by either bringing their own scourges, having more of the classes with resistance and cleanses, going boonless if they see scourges on the other side, or staying at range.

Sylvyn.4750:

Vitali.5039:

And seriously, GW2 isn’t a game stranger to damage spikes and to counter that professions have resistance, cleanses, blocks, immunes, evades and mobility and now even barriers.

Is this the first time that WvWers have to fight zerg’s condi pressuse?

It’s the first time having a lot of pre-stacked boons worked against a WvW zerg, as they ended up being corrupted. With more stacks of condis added on top of the usual ones, they can’t all be cleared in time, and barriers, which scourges also have, only delay the effects a bit. Not complaining…just pointing out a mechanic that might require zergs to adjust by either bringing their own scourges, having more of the classes with resistance and cleanses, going boonless if they see scourges on the other side, or staying at range.

More support guardians, mallyx revenants and support tempests will be needed, light fields and blast finisher will gain value and better tattics will rise.

Fear the mighty Pain Assorbition/Bolstered Anguish Hammer Revenant!
ps. maybe elementalists will even remember the existence of Stop, Drop and Roll

look im not some tosser e-sports guy, i’ve just played a loooooooot of necro. im actually finding it maybe a tiny bit overtuned, y’know, if we had blocks, evades, invulns, immunities, stealth, reflects and if our burst potential weren’t tied to stationary totems

but what would i know, i couldn’t possibly refute that ironclad argument op presented

Jelzouki.4128:

Hi,

For those that dont know me let me attach some credibility to my name for a moment. I was on team ASAP Zerg, semi-pro esport team. Long time pvper and necro player. Just wanted to clarify that scourge is indeed too strong. The people defending it have no clue what they are saying. Im guessing they are going to nerf the burn damage. You press buttons and things just die when playing the scourge.

You can’t be too good if you don’t see how a single Deadeye on the enemy team will kitten Scourge up-, down-, and sideways. Ranged power builds just eat Scourges for breakfast and want a second helping, and Condi Daredevils , some Mesmer builds etc. can burst almost as well while having defenses, stealth, blinks, or a combination of those. Scourge is only a tiny wee bit faster than base Necro , if they even bother running the portal in sPvP over other options, don’t have their “second health bar”, and the barriers are decent but decay way too fast to be of any use against classes that can just blink out of the fight on barrier use and after it decays jump back in.