Guild Wars 2

There is a lot of talk and criticism in the community regarding expectations that the removal of shroud form the Scourge will make it weak for PvP. And whilst i agree our survivability will take a big hit, i think that the level of fear among the community is unwarranted, and it is also too early to tell.

One key reason for this is that people seem to be viewing Scourge through the lens of our current play style. One of the main reasons reaper shroud is so important is that it is a key damage source, and it is also entirely melee, meaning we need the added health not to die when in close range. This is true to a lesser extent for core shroud as well as skills #4 and #5 are melee range, and a number of traits are proximity based. The point here is that the new spec, it seems to me, should rarely be in melee range. This entirely changes the play style, to a ranged one. In addition to this the absence of Reaper shroud means we will no longer wreck team fights, and as such are unlikely to be the enemies primary target (based on current figures this will be the Holosmith). The idea that we will be focussed more than ever is based in no logic. Bruiser classes have never been a primary target in a fight.
So, when one views the spec in its new role it is not so bad. We will have good kiting utilities available for us (Flesh Worm, Spectral Walk, Sand Swell, Trail of Anguish), in addition to good access to fear, cripple, chill, and now a knockdown. Along with some minor active defence in the form of barrier (which sales, have look at the new stat combinations), condi transfers, not to mention the highest base health in the game (joint with War) and will likely not run a DPS amulet. If, playing as a ranged class, you can’t survive with this then either your kiting gameplay is not up to scratch, or you are simply being focussed too hard without team support (which shouldn’t happen as much anymore). After all no class should be able to solo survive being a 5-man DPS target, that is where team heals/peels should come in.

Perhaps one of the most important things to note is that we don’t know how the expected skill rework at the launch of PoF will affect us. Not to mention how core shroud-based traits will affect sand shades, a good PvP build is grounded in good trait setup, and we simply don’t know enough about this to make a call yet. I for one am excited to the crazy build craft ahead. At least we have a super interesting spec to get in to!

Psy

flesh worm and spectral walk are ancient relics, theyre trash now.

worm = 1200 distance + criple/chill
…. in past that meant something, now even guards can gap close and everybody has cleanses to beat reaper level chills, base is just freekill

specral walk = 0 distance + swiftness + potential port over ledge or cca 900 distance (IF YOU CAN MOVE)
…again like above, everything is so powercreeped that pure kiting with distance doesnt exist anymore. also walk desperately needs superspeed atm to not move 0 distance and then port back

The thing with Shroud tho it was our Invun, Aegis, Block & o-kitten button all rolled up into one cause we lack all those things plus we lack stealth,movement, disengage and any other factors to escape being Focused. And afte yesterday with VP-nerf that took alot of that away from us and Scourge dosent have it at all.

I really hope Scourge will work, and fighting without Shroud does sound intresting but atm without testing I feel we gonna lack that defence we get from Shroud and Barriers seems very un-reliable. Maybe we have better battleground control but I cant see us have any better diengage when focused then we have now… and that meens we still gonna be an easy target.

Hope Iam wrong

Flumek.9043:

flesh worm and spectral walk are ancient relics, theyre trash now.

worm = 1200 distance + criple/chill
…. in past that meant something, now even guards can gap close and everybody has cleanses to beat reaper level chills, base is just freekill

specral walk = 0 distance + swiftness + potential port over ledge or cca 900 distance (IF YOU CAN MOVE)
…again like above, everything is so powercreeped that pure kiting with distance doesnt exist anymore. also walk desperately needs superspeed atm to not move 0 distance and then port back

Oh i don’t disagree that these skills are weak and need buffs, especially in comparison to other classes. My point is mainly that our survivaibilty extends beyond shroud, people thinking we are a one trick pony has been a problem in the player base for a while IMO.

Ravezaar.4951:

The thing with Shroud tho it was our Invun, Aegis, Block & o-kitten button all rolled up into one cause we lack all those things plus we lack stealth,movement, disengage and any other factors to escape being Focused. And afte yesterday with VP-nerf that took alot of that away from us and Scourge dosent have it at all.

I really hope Scourge will work, and fighting without Shroud does sound intresting but atm without testing I feel we gonna lack that defence we get from Shroud and Barriers seems very un-reliable. Maybe we have better battleground control but I cant see us have any better diengage when focused then we have now… and that meens we still gonna be an easy target.

Hope Iam wrong

I agree it doesnt look like we will have the easiest time. But it is not as bleak as people seem to think, and as you rightly mention, we simply cannot know at the moment.

yep how dissapointed I was by yesterdays patch I still cant wait for the 18th

ceejay.2517:

Flumek.9043:

flesh worm and spectral walk are ancient relics, theyre trash now.

worm = 1200 distance + criple/chill
…. in past that meant something, now even guards can gap close and everybody has cleanses to beat reaper level chills, base is just freekill

specral walk = 0 distance + swiftness + potential port over ledge or cca 900 distance (IF YOU CAN MOVE)
…again like above, everything is so powercreeped that pure kiting with distance doesnt exist anymore. also walk desperately needs superspeed atm to not move 0 distance and then port back

Oh i don’t disagree that these skills are weak and need buffs, especially in comparison to other classes. My point is mainly that our survivaibilty extends beyond shroud, people thinking we are a one trick pony has been a problem in the player base for a while IMO.

I use core Vanilla Power Necro in PvP and would agree that shroud isn’t the only thing that keeps a kiting range necro alive.
Scourge would play in a similar way to the core Vanilla Range Necro in that they do their stuff from range and kite to survive, as you have mentioned.

The seeming lack of interaction between current skills/traits and barriers (the new defensive mechanism) is a little worrying though. For example, spectral armor synergizes well with shroud currently and gives us buffer moments to surive focus fire in that the more people hitting us, the more shroud we get. It is our (only?) viable defense against scaling numbers of attacking players.
Will there be similar interactions with Scourge’s Sand Shroud Barrier defense? If the answer is no, I’m hoping the new portal goes some way to addressing that by giving us even more and better kiting options.

Eremite,
i thought you knew this, maybe you forgot or read too much tooltips.

S.Armor is NOT scalable.
It gets WORSE with more enemies, it has a 1s ICD.

Rise of reaper was Anets answer to “scallable defense”. And even that scales in duration and not burst intesity.

EremiteAngel.9765:

I’m hoping the new portal goes some way to addressing that by giving us even more and better kiting options.

Me too, but that kitten thing has a 35 second cooldown.

Flumek.9043:

Eremite,
i thought you knew this, maybe you forgot or read too much tooltips.

S.Armor is NOT scalable.
It gets WORSE with more enemies, it has a 1s ICD.

Rise of reaper was Anets answer to “scallable defense”. And even that scales in duration and not burst intesity.

ah…my bad…
I was speaking from my limited experience in that spectral armor + shroud seems to keep me alive much longer against multiple foes.
Another of my spectral armor works on condi ticks noobness =s

Spectral Armor grant 8% LF every 1 second (because have and internal cooldown), then it’s not truly scaling with the number of opponent and for shure don’t grant more LF based on the enemy hits. But for shure is the best defensive skill of the necro because you can enter the shroud and use that effect to adsorbe damage better.

That mechanic will be Totally Useless with Barriers because you obtain a Fixed amount of Barrier (based on your healing power, and maybe vitality) but you’re not directly using your LF as defence, then increase it while using a Barrier will not grant more survavibility at all.
That’s one of the Big problems that reduce the Scourge Survavibility.

Also, while in Shroud the enemy Power damage inflicted to you is Reduced by 50% (is not applied to Conditions). That make Barriers even Worst because the shroud damage reduction is Not applied to Barriers. To obtain that effect you have to use the F5 to enter the Desert Shroud, otherwise the barreris suffer the 100% of the enemy damage. But otherwise, you can obtain this damage reduction even using Only the F5. But that’s not enough to make barriers good as shroud (in a defensive way)

The Portal have a good range (900 isn’t the best but still a good range) and you can active it and be teleported to the chosen location, obtaining the barrier and opening the way for your allies. Then you’re able to use it again to come back and then go again, as you can do with the portal. That looks similar to a teleport, with 3/4 sec of casting and lower range.
The main problem of this skill is the Casting. It’s not Istant and with tons of CC in game, an obvious animation and the total lack of stability (you can obtain it only using FitG trait or stripping it from your enemy), be interrupted while using this skill is really easy. That make this skill not perfect as a defensive skill. A common Teleport was better for our self defence, but that’s a skill that grant also to allies a free way to go and then have a long casting to be used.
Another problem is that in a team fight you can’t use it to flee in a Totally safe spot as the mesmer can do with the Portal. A mesmer can active it and then use it as a “oh crap!” skill to Totally flee from the fight and be able to disengage and obtain his hp and cd back, while the enemies are still fighting. It’s an Huge advantage that this skill will never obtain.
We’ll be able to use it as we always wanted to use the Wurm, but keep in mind that 3/4 sec are half of the wurm casting speed but still will not grant you a so big movement if you’re already running, expecially with swiftness.

Scourge will obtain different good things but it’s survavibility will be seriously bad if compared even to the Core class, expecially for the Spectral Armor/Walk LF generation while in Shroud powring our meatshield strategy.

The scourge gameplay will be totally different from the Necromancer and the Reaper, you have to kite More, to Run More, have a Better Position. But any enemy with a Teleport will catch you easy and fast anyway. And then all your barriers will grant you half of the survavibility of a core necromancer.

Untill you’re able to move and flee, there’s not so much problems but when the enemy immobilize you or use a teleport you will regret to don’t have the old Death Shroud.

EremiteAngel.9765:

ah…my bad…
I was speaking from my limited experience in that spectral armor + shroud seems to keep me alive much longer against multiple foes.

It actually does. It even works well in zergfights… well… it used to.

When combined with good old Vital Persistence you hardly died in that 6 seconds (I used this combo a million times as midline power reaper).

Now because of the 4% degen on top of the 1 sec. ICD the combo lost a lot of its potencial and feels really weak.

KrHome.1920:

EremiteAngel.9765:

I’m hoping the new portal goes some way to addressing that by giving us even more and better kiting options.

Me too, but that kitten thing has a 35 second cooldown.

Lasts 20s though. Depends on how many times you can move through it. 900 range is fairly big.

Why wouldn’t the Scourge still be the #1 focus? It’s even easier to kill than Core Necro. If you can easily turn a fight from a 5v5 into a 5v4, you do it.

Flumek.9043:

flesh worm and spectral walk are ancient relics, theyre trash now.

worm = 1200 distance + criple/chill
…. in past that meant something, now even guards can gap close and everybody has cleanses to beat reaper level chills, base is just freekill

specral walk = 0 distance + swiftness + potential port over ledge or cca 900 distance (IF YOU CAN MOVE)
…again like above, everything is so powercreeped that pure kiting with distance doesnt exist anymore. also walk desperately needs superspeed atm to not move 0 distance and then port back

All wurm does is teleport away from your team mates (who can res or heal you) to die. Seen as when you teleport somewhere, like you say, every guardian/mesmer/thief/rev will be back on you within about 1 second with their unlimited gap closers

I think Scourge’s only saving grace is that you won’t be dependent on Curses or Spite to do your job. You’ll be able to play support with some combo of Blood/Death/SR and still be able to contribute.

Silv.9207:

The scourge gameplay will be totally different from the Necromancer and the Reaper, you have to kite More, to Run More, have a Better Position. But any enemy with a Teleport will catch you easy and fast anyway. And then all your barriers will grant you half of the survavibility of a core necromancer.

Untill you’re able to move and flee, there’s not so much problems but when the enemy immobilize you or use a teleport you will regret to don’t have the old Death Shroud.

This. Besides, any profession that is referred to as “having mobility” in this game is not only because of some random utilities with long cooldowns. All these professions have great tools on some of their weapons as well, which necromancer does not. Scourge will not fly. It’s a clunkier form of shroud which needs to be activated with precise timing and the added benefit of team support… because, let’s face it, when people make a necromancer they’re thinking “I want to help my team stay alive”, that’s the perception and appeal of the necromancer.

I d make it very quick, without DS necro is just no more viable. There is absolutely no way you can stay alive, due the complete lack of evade any decent glass cannon is going to ista kill necromancers in a few istants. This also true for any high dmg pve boss.

Even my 8 years old little brother could understand that, so my guess is easy, there is any decent dev working on Anet or you guys just all monkeys clicking random keys to do something ?

You still got time to fix that kitten go on and change it coz the hype for the new Scourge is kinda 0.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Flumek.9043:

flesh worm and spectral walk are ancient relics, theyre trash now.

worm = 1200 distance + criple/chill
…. in past that meant something, now even guards can gap close and everybody has cleanses to beat reaper level chills, base is just freekill

specral walk = 0 distance + swiftness + potential port over ledge or cca 900 distance (IF YOU CAN MOVE)
…again like above, everything is so powercreeped that pure kiting with distance doesnt exist anymore. also walk desperately needs superspeed atm to not move 0 distance and then port back

All wurm does is teleport away from your team mates (who can res or heal you) to die. Seen as when you teleport somewhere, like you say, every guardian/mesmer/thief/rev will be back on you within about 1 second with their unlimited gap closers

Anybody that takes wurm is an idiot. When I ditched my necro for burn guardian last season I would figure out where the wurm was and either destroy in 2 seconds or wait for the necro to use and then use judges intervention and sword 2 to kill him in a couple of seconds far away from any teammates to help. The only decent defensive skill is spectral armor and its not nearly enough.

@steelheart,
As far as I’m aware, guardians are one trick ponies that always engage with True Shot + Judge’s Intervention or Judge’s Intervention + trap, so I don’t really see how you would have both port available in the exact moment that the Necro uses wurm. Wurm is one of the best survivalbility tools that the Necro has available to it… you just have to be clever with it – it has the potential to completely remove you from the fight and aside from Spectral Walk (which is a lil harder to use), it’s the only Necro skill that can do that.

Both Spectral Walk and Wurm can work very well on a Necro. They are not as easy to use as point – click – teleport, but they can still work (thanks Anet for giving us such straightforward mobility). Nevertheless, they do work if used correctly. With Scourge portal + either wurm or Spectral Walk could be pretty strong (or take all 3 for the lulz).

Still optimistic about Scourge…. but I guess we’ll see when the weekend hits :P

My question is how much “Barrier” can you stack… if you pop all barrier skills your looking at 10k + barrier(eZ) which is quite tanky given the low cool downs. With the added mobility (which i hope they drop the cast time…3/4s kitten …) and a bit of soft CC pressure Scourge may have decent 5v1 counter play, especially since most barrier skills are AOE allowing burst classes & support will be able to focus more on roles instead of watching their own HPs. But then again that makes Necro main focus since we bring so much to team fights…

Drakril.4058:

My question is how much “Barrier” can you stack… if you pop all barrier skills your looking at 10k + barrier(eZ) which is quite tanky given the low cool downs. With the added mobility (which i hope they drop the cast time…3/4s kitten …) and a bit of soft CC pressure Scourge may have decent 5v1 counter play, especially since most barrier skills are AOE allowing burst classes & support will be able to focus more on roles instead of watching their own HPs. But then again that makes Necro main focus since we bring so much to team fights…

You identified the main problem with the spec. It’s bring so much point support and nothing else that it will be an easy focus target AND it will useless in any other capacity. What’s the best way to kill a shade and necro support? Just kill the necro and you can now do that from range and/or cc without ANY counter by the necro…except maybe a 35 second cooldown portal.