Guild Wars 2

Does anyone see this at level 80? Or is their mixed results?

Do people find they like to have necros in their groups for dungeons, or would they rather have other classes?

I am trying to decide to either make a necro or elementalist. I mainly PvE and was looking at making a necro but if people don’t like having us in groups then maybe not.

Or maybe necros are getting a bad rap for some reason?

Necros are fine in high level PvE, the problem is the mechanics of the higher level fractals and dungeons don’t really need what Necros bring. You could say the same of elementalists though. That said, if you want to play Necro, you might get a bit of QQing from elitists, but its really not holding your party back if you are playing to our strengths, it just means slightly longer runs.

Play whichever you enjoy most.

@Bhawb.7408

What? arent you kinda disagreeing with yourself?
Fine in high level pve → higher level fractals don’t really need what necros bring??? Which dungeon needs what necro’s bring anyway :<.

Your not holding your party back → slightly longer runs. Okay fair enough your not holding your team back your only slowing em down.

So Bhawb pretty much answered your question yes people would rather have other classes.

wiazabi.2549:

@Bhawb.7408

What? arent you kinda disagreeing with yourself?
Fine in high level pve -> higher level fractals don’t really need what necros bring??? Which dungeon needs what necro’s bring anyway :<.

Your not holding your party back -> slightly longer runs. Okay fair enough your not holding your team back your only slowing em down.

So Bhawb pretty much answered your question yes people would rather have other classes.

Its Bhawb. Hes just trying to sound positive or something. I don’t think hes ever played a class outside of necromancer though. I’m not sure he really knows how much necros slow a run down.

wiazabi.2549:

@Bhawb.7408

What? arent you kinda disagreeing with yourself?
Fine in high level pve -> higher level fractals don’t really need what necros bring??? Which dungeon needs what necro’s bring anyway :<.

Your not holding your party back -> slightly longer runs. Okay fair enough your not holding your team back your only slowing em down.

So Bhawb pretty much answered your question yes people would rather have other classes.

What I’m saying is that we aren’t inherently underpowered, but rather the higher level PvE mechanics don’t favor us. Realistically speaking, you have no reason to want another class besides warrior, guardian, and mesmer at the highest level of PvE because their mechanics are more suitable than ours. If ANet changed the mechanics so they didn’t blatantly favor certain classes (the need for a lot of damage nullifying and projectile reflection, and favoring boons over conditions). Frankly they seem to have made dungeons specifically so we wouldn’t have much that was special to bring.

Holding back I’m simply saying the run doesn’t become any more difficult, it just takes a bit longer than if you subbed in another warrior, for example. And this really only applies to speed farming and fractals, other dungeons its debatable.

Also, his class choice was Ele or Necro. Ele isn’t in a better place than Necro in dungeons; they’re both behind war/guard/mesmer

Twilight Arbor = Golem charges and cleans all deathly blossoms in the path, worm as teleport and fear+chill mark means you can run through all mob without the need of stealth or anything and carry any group if needed. Putrid mark serves as condi removal for allies and so does fetid consumption. Superior tanking and cc and decent AoE allows you to pull and single handedly tank the whole spider room. Condition transfer kittens some bosses pretty bad…

Just an example

When i was leveling my necromancer i hit a brick wall when i hit level 70.
Suddenly i didn’t know what direction to go in, what weapons to use, what to trait for and even what my general role was going to be.

I had to shelve it because trying to figure it out was stressing me out too much, so i continued to play my warrior and my thief along with leveling an engineer. But i still felt something was lacking, my kills always felt cheap & undeserving on my thief, My warrior is pure bunker mace & shield which was built around control, setting up kills for other players and damage reflection, in the end it just gets tiresome. My engineer almost grasped what i wanted from a class, but the amount of things i had to keep track of was exhausting again it was lacking something.

Eventually i went back and now i have a build I’m extremely happy with, stats balanced to suit me and a clear role set out on what i want to achieve.

I think the problem overall lies in the definition of the necromancer. You see one and you’re not sure what to expect from them in combat, they can either melt underneath you or you can get absolutely crushed by one.
It takes time & patience to appreciate this profession and most times players just want the free road to lootbags, which means taking on the shinier more popular professions.

TLDR: Necromancer is the most rewarding profession i have played in this game.

wiazabi.2549:

Which dungeon needs what necro’s bring anyway

I run zerker/soldier gear build and dagger/warhorn power setup.
I got booted from a CoF party 3 times yesterday before the dungeons started.

Does not matter much what you bring to the party / what your setup is.

rogerwilko.6895:

wiazabi.2549:

Which dungeon needs what necro’s bring anyway

I run zerker/soldier gear build and dagger/warhorn power setup.
I got booted from a CoF party 3 times yesterday before the dungeons started.

Does not matter much what you bring to the party / what your setup is.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Pretty much all groups will insta-kick a necro or just block them from the group to begin with. Why? Because they have jack all for group utility, much like rangers, or now even engineers. Stick with the elem and be somewhat useful to the group. Better still, roll a guardian, warrior, or mesmer and be useful and wanted at 80. Rolling any class other than those 3 will result in frustration and heartache as you quickly realize you are useless and unwanted. Also, you’re probably just a bad person if you don’t roll any of those 3.

I only got kicked once, and the reason was “there is already a necro”.

I never do fractals though.

The title “Shortage of necros?” made me think “Shortage of necros to do what?”.

Cristobal.8640:

Twilight Arbor = Golem charges and cleans all deathly blossoms in the path, worm as teleport and fear+chill mark means you can run through all mob without the need of stealth or anything and carry any group if needed. Putrid mark serves as condi removal for allies and so does fetid consumption. Superior tanking and cc and decent AoE allows you to pull and single handedly tank the whole spider room. Condition transfer kittens some bosses pretty bad…

Just an example

Guardian is much better at clearing blossoms with staff. Guard is also much better at carrying people through the skippable parts. Stability to stop knockdowns and fears. Along with aegis and group swiftness. Necro is always going to be a selfish class when it comes to things outside combat because we dont have any group boons.

Having said that, when i pug ta i always take guard so i can carry the group but often having a necro in the group with me is quite effective. Alot of pugs tend to build their guards or warriors with soldiers gear or knights gear which makes things slow. Most necro pugs run condition damage which kills the nightmare vines pretty fast. Shame power is still faster. Obviously having war, guard, mes groups are still much better and faster. But necro’s are pretty good in some dungeons, they dont slow the group down as much as people think.

Ran coe the other day with guildies. Had 3 wars and a mes, i didnt want to go guard because i dont have beserker gear for him yet (I use knights for fractals). So i took necro for higher dps and boon stripping on the golem. We actually cleared both p1 and p3 faster than weve ever done with 3 war 1 guard 1 mes or 4 war and 1 mes.

Aren’t necros good at healing and condition removal? Isn’t that good enough to warrant a spot in a group?

Honestly I think the only people that leave necros and other classes out of dungeons are warriors that resent the fact that their ungaunga class and way of playing is pretty much useless for doing serious stuff like pvp.

Another stuff that is great for dungeons are the wells that corrupt boons and the one that converts conditions into boons. The second one alone can raise the dps of a party more than another warrior in a lot of circumstances.

Tharjax.9068:

Aren’t necros good at healing and condition removal? Isn’t that good enough to warrant a spot in a group?

Dungeons aren’t really geared towards needing the healing right now, and I can’t think of any boss that makes me think “man I wish I had more condi removal”. Which is the problem, we have plenty of awesome things to bring to a group, its just that they aren’t needed with current dungeon mechanics.

Cristobal.8640:

Honestly I think the only people that leave necros and other classes out of dungeons are warriors that resent the fact that their ungaunga class and way of playing is pretty much useless for doing serious stuff like pvp.

Another stuff that is great for dungeons are the wells that corrupt boons and the one that converts conditions into boons. The second one alone can raise the dps of a party more than another warrior in a lot of circumstances.

You’re so very wrong about the warrior statement, take in fact that many do pve content before switching to pvp, you assume the opposite.

Secondly how many boons do you meet in dungeon, I seriously doubt how ridicolous you statement sounds. Very few mob get/steal boon & even these account for very insignificant number to make them gamechangers, why do you think most necros rely on epidemic instead!

The problem with boon removal, is that many other classes can do it as well, (sword mesmer), and removal vs flipping really isn’t a big difference. There are no debuffs that REALLY help a ton on a boss (save vulnerability in a heavy dps group). Flipping a BUFF to a DEBUFF is really no better than just removing it.

Also our condition flips have long cooldowns in places where mobs either A. Don’t use boons, B. Use boons so frequently we can’t keep up (grawl dredge).

I am in agreement with mesmer/warrior/guardian. Outside of those three there is no REASON to take anyone else. That doesn’t mean a run is going to be horrid with two necros, but it isn’t going to be faster. A bad warrior is still way worse in a group than an excellent necro.

All pug groups assume a base level of ability, and in that environment, assuming all things are equal, you will have more success just not taking necros or rangers. Eles offer a very nice stacking heal, as do guardians, that helps groups, but they are also not very popular because their staff is more utility and less damage.

Back to the original question… I see more necros in WvW now, as a result of the last massive confusion nerf, as wells are still a very powerful zerg tactic, in conjunction with WOR, and LOW. I would suspect that wells will get nerfed in that environment, and we will be back to the rare and occasional necro in WvW.

That has less to do with the class being underpowered, and more to do with the lack of a high and rewarding skill cap. Thief is so popular because it is easy to own people with little skill (though you will get owned frequently as well), and at the highest level of person ability, you are nearly unstoppable. Necro on the other hand has a hard time early on, and at the highest levels of ability, still loses in situations other mobile and fluid classes will not.

Rennoko.5731:

The problem with boon removal, is that many other classes can do it as well, (sword mesmer), and removal vs flipping really isn’t a big difference. There are no debuffs that REALLY help a ton on a boss (save vulnerability in a heavy dps group). Flipping a BUFF to a DEBUFF is really no better than just removing it.

Also our condition flips have long cooldowns in places where mobs either A. Don’t use boons, B. Use boons so frequently we can’t keep up (grawl dredge).

I am in agreement with mesmer/warrior/guardian. Outside of those three there is no REASON to take anyone else. That doesn’t mean a run is going to be horrid with two necros, but it isn’t going to be faster. A bad warrior is still way worse in a group than an excellent necro.

All pug groups assume a base level of ability, and in that environment, assuming all things are equal, you will have more success just not taking necros or rangers. Eles offer a very nice stacking heal, as do guardians, that helps groups, but they are also not very popular because their staff is more utility and less damage.

Back to the original question… I see more necros in WvW now, as a result of the last massive confusion nerf, as wells are still a very powerful zerg tactic, in conjunction with WOR, and LOW. I would suspect that wells will get nerfed in that environment, and we will be back to the rare and occasional necro in WvW.

That has less to do with the class being underpowered, and more to do with the lack of a high and rewarding skill cap. Thief is so popular because it is easy to own people with little skill (though you will get owned frequently as well), and at the highest level of person ability, you are nearly unstoppable. Necro on the other hand has a hard time early on, and at the highest levels of ability, still loses in situations other mobile and fluid classes will not.

Has ANet acknowledged any of these necro issues? Are they aware of these flaws and are working on something to fix it?

I don’t think ANET has come out and said any of what I mentioned is a problem to them, and is in need of a fix. The ultimate reality of a game that is designed to be accessible to a group of ANY composition, is that you cannot require or reward too heavily an aspect of that not universally available. The rare exception to this could be REFLECT, which is not universally available, but is heavily rewarded.

DPS discrepancies, especially in PVE are not a concern for ANET as far as I know either, because they believe the access to those utilities that provide little benefit to PVE, are still there, and justify the weakness of the overall package (jack of all scenario).

You cannot fix this problem unless they drastically change the PVE mobs to require more of what we can offer (or to just be more challenging in general). That would close the door on some other group arrangement, thereby making someone else angry they can’t run their 4 zerker warrior mesmer group anymore.

The bounty hunt mobs are in my opinion a very good sign. They are bosses that are not face-roll, and require some tactical approach. Hopefully this is a sign that future content will follow this pattern.

Tharjax.9068:

Has ANet acknowledged any of these necro issues? Are they aware of these flaws and are working on something to fix it?

Outside of the new DS 5 skill coming, pretty much no. They have brushed them aside, in lieu of just ‘hoping the meta changes’. As if teams will ever start doing dumb things, like stopping to target a Necro first since he is such an easy focus target.

And they don’t seem too concerned about balancing other parts of the game like WvW, where outside of zergs, mobility owns everything, even more than sPVP, due to objectives aren’t fought merely over tiny fixed circles that strong area defenders can sit in and win by merely getting the other guy to back off.

Yendorion.2381:

Cristobal.8640:

Honestly I think the only people that leave necros and other classes out of dungeons are warriors that resent the fact that their ungaunga class and way of playing is pretty much useless for doing serious stuff like pvp.

Another stuff that is great for dungeons are the wells that corrupt boons and the one that converts conditions into boons. The second one alone can raise the dps of a party more than another warrior in a lot of circumstances.

You’re so very wrong about the warrior statement, take in fact that many do pve content before switching to pvp, you assume the opposite.

Secondly how many boons do you meet in dungeon, I seriously doubt how ridicolous you statement sounds. Very few mob get/steal boon & even these account for very insignificant number to make them gamechangers, why do you think most necros rely on epidemic instead!

I was talking about the well that convert allie’s conditions into boons…

Pendragon.8735:

Tharjax.9068:

Has ANet acknowledged any of these necro issues? Are they aware of these flaws and are working on something to fix it?

Outside of the new DS 5 skill coming, pretty much no. They have brushed them aside, in lieu of just ‘hoping the meta changes’. As if teams will ever start doing dumb things, like stopping to target a Necro first since he is such an easy focus target.

And they don’t seem too concerned about balancing other parts of the game like WvW, where outside of zergs, mobility owns everything, even more than sPVP, due to objectives aren’t fought merely over tiny fixed circles that strong area defenders can sit in and win by merely getting the other guy to back off.

Yes I can see where Wells would be horrible since it’s a stationary AOE spell which requires a mob or player to be in its range to damage. It’s almost as if there are are PvE specs and spells and also PvP specs and spells.

I know from playing a little bit of WoW that some trees were just best used as a PvP tree and not PvE and vice versa.

Tharjax.9068:

Yes I can see where Wells would be horrible since it’s a stationary AOE spell which requires a mob or player to be in its range to damage. It’s almost as if there are are PvE specs and spells and also PvP specs and spells.

I know from playing a little bit of WoW that some trees were just best used as a PvP tree and not PvE and vice versa.

I believe they should add a new mode to sPVP beside just conquest. Not only would this massively change up the meta, esp if teams couldn’t change roster or builds between the maps, but it would greatly help them not be so restricted in balancing as it applies only to Conquest game mode, which as you suggested, does not really in any way closely resemble the other parts of the game, or how the classes interact or balance in those different modes (PVE, Dungeons, WvW, etc).

Whether this was team deathmatch, king of the hill, capture the flag style, could be anything, but would really bust up the stale meta of bunkers, roamers, etc. that is unfortunately driving every other decision they make about classes right now.

They have sort of tried to add in elements of other modes via secondary objectives, but they are just aren’t crucial enough to override the basic conquest mechanics.

Each time i read to Rennoko I confirm he’s one of the few guys in this section of the forum who has knowledge about the necro,

Some answer are hilarious,