Sigil of Force & Rune of the Eagle
Damage multipliers are combined multiplicatively. For example the Superior Sigil of Force (5%), Superior Sigil of the Night (10%), a 10% trait, a 20% trait and the (6) bonus of the Superior Rune of the Scholar (10%) combine to roughly 68% more damage (1.05 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.1 = 1.677), not only 55% (the summation).
Force + Eagle : 1.05*1.06 = 1,113
Force + Eagle + Night : 1.05*1.06*1.1 = 1,2243
Brandar – Kodash [DE]
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(edited by Turamarth.3248)
or is it some janky-kitteny 10th level calculus nightmare?
it’s basic algebra… all the modifiers are multiplied together.
OK so.
Assuming valk + 50% crit (be that either of our crit traits) + scholar + bloodlust on one weapon, is adding a sigil or fire or a sigil of force going to add more damager over time?
I’m guessing sof will do more damage, but with close to death and crit modifiers I’m not so sure.
Mad Skullz | 80 Necro | Piken Square
OK so.
Assuming valk + 50% crit (be that either of our crit traits) + scholar + bloodlust on one weapon, is adding a sigil or fire or a sigil of force going to add more damager over time?
I’m guessing sof will do more damage, but with close to death and crit modifiers I’m not so sure.
Generally speaking things like SoF/SoA (AoE vs single target, I’d point out that SoA is significantly better for single target damage) deal more damage in PvP/WvW, where you can’t guarantee “ideal” DPS, however they fall off in PvE where dealing theoretical max DPS is very close to what you’ll be doing all the time.
So basically, force/night for PvE, proc sigils for PvP, almost always.
OK so.
Assuming valk + 50% crit (be that either of our crit traits) + scholar + bloodlust on one weapon, is adding a sigil or fire or a sigil of force going to add more damager over time?
I’m guessing sof will do more damage, but with close to death and crit modifiers I’m not so sure.
It depends how much damage you deal.
There are a ton of variables involved but here’s an example with this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJAWBW+Fspq2P4IEvEjiXRokWA4DA-TRCEABJcIAW4CA8mugFV/Jl9HM4IA0kyPAVCCwDAIAwBwv/mv/G48zP/8zPvf/93f/93SBonyI-e
% damage stuff like Vuln, Sigil of Night, Close to Death, etc… benefit both Sigil of Force and Sigil of Fire by the same percentage so we don’t need to consider it. We do need to consider Reaper’s Onslaught because it pretty much only benefits Sigil of Force by increasing DPS over time, but it doesn’t increase the damage of Sigil of Fire.
So this has 3851 power maximum (full might and bloodlust) which means Sigil of Fire hits for 3,273.35. It can hit every 5s so it can contribute 654.67 DPS maximum per enemy.
654.67 / 0.05 = 13,093.4 <- That’s how much DPS you need to deal for Sigil of Force to be better than Sigil of Fire.
This build’s effective power when considering crit (assuming 25 vuln on the enemy for decimate defenses) is 7,097.97 which means to get to 13,093.4 DPS we need a 1.845 power coefficient per second. I’m not sure that’s possible tbh, even considering Reaper’s Onsaught.
I’m confused tbh. I thought Sigil of Force was supposed to be better than the crit proc sigils for DPS. Can anyone check my math?
(edited by Khristophoros.7194)
OK so.
Assuming valk + 50% crit (be that either of our crit traits) + scholar + bloodlust on one weapon, is adding a sigil or fire or a sigil of force going to add more damager over time?
I’m guessing sof will do more damage, but with close to death and crit modifiers I’m not so sure.
It depends how much damage you deal.
There are a ton of variables involved but here’s an example with this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJAWBW+Fspq2P4IEvEjiXRokWA4DA-TRCEABJcIAW4CA8mugFV/Jl9HM4IA0kyPAVCCwDAIAwBwv/mv/G48zP/8zPvf/93f/93SBonyI-e
% damage stuff like Vuln, Sigil of Night, Close to Death, etc… benefit both Sigil of Force and Sigil of Fire by the same percentage so we don’t need to consider it. We do need to consider Reaper’s Onslaught because it pretty much only benefits Sigil of Force by increasing DPS over time, but it doesn’t increase the damage of Sigil of Fire.
So this has 3851 power maximum (full might and bloodlust) which means Sigil of Fire hits for 3,273.35. It can hit every 5s so it can contribute 654.67 DPS maximum per enemy.
654.67 / 0.05 = 13,093.4 <- That’s how much DPS you need to deal for Sigil of Force to be better than Sigil of Fire.
This build’s effective power when considering crit (assuming 25 vuln on the enemy for decimate defenses) is 7,097.97 which means to get to 13,093.4 DPS we need a 1.845 power coefficient per second. I’m not sure that’s possible tbh, even considering Reaper’s Onsaught.
I’m confused tbh. I thought Sigil of Force was supposed to be better than the crit proc sigils for DPS. Can anyone check my math?
The way I see it, crit-proc sigils are for builds that have consistent crit chance, whereas flat increases like sigil of force are for tankier builds without the crit chance (soldier, sentinel, cleric)
So basically things like Sigil of Force combined with things like Runes of Infiltration stack insane amount of damage?
So basically things like Sigil of Force combined with things like Runes of Infiltration stack insane amount of damage?
“Insane” might be a bit much, but yes all damage modifiers in the game stack manipulatively, which means the more you have combined, the more each individual one ends up being.
So basically things like Sigil of Force combined with things like Runes of Infiltration stack insane amount of damage?
Sigil of Fire or Sigil of Air still give you more damage than Sigil of Force regardless of how many other % boosts you have, assuming you crit really often. I guess it depends on how many rapid hits you can do. Necro with dagger/horn and wells can reliably proc crit sigils but other professions may proc them less frequently.
Also, flat power boosts are often better than % boosts. 750 power from 25x might is usually equivalent to like 25% damage. The only difference is multiple power boosts don’t scale multiplicatively with each other, but you will never reach a point where things like Might and Sigil of Bloodlust aren’t ridiculous. Like even after getting to around 3500 power from might your sigil of bloodlust is still worth around 7%.
(edited by Khristophoros.7194)
@Khris
From what i see the math is wrong but the conclusion is right. Fire still seems to beat out force when i do my math. Only by a small amount though. Like 0.05 coeffs a second. Would differ depending on varying factors though. In some instances fire loses and force wins but it solely depends on circumstance. Force is more guaranteed though.
@Khris
From what i see the math is wrong but the conclusion is right. Fire still seems to beat out force when i do my math. Only by a small amount though. Like 0.05 coeffs a second. Would differ depending on varying factors though. In some instances fire loses and force wins but it solely depends on circumstance. Force is more guaranteed though.
Where did I make mistakes?
I’m sure damage multipliers are additive in this game (eg. 5% + 6% = 11% )
A bad necromancer always blames the corpse.
@Khris
From what i see the math is wrong but the conclusion is right. Fire still seems to beat out force when i do my math. Only by a small amount though. Like 0.05 coeffs a second. Would differ depending on varying factors though. In some instances fire loses and force wins but it solely depends on circumstance. Force is more guaranteed though.
Where did I make mistakes?
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
I’m sure damage multipliers are additive in this game (eg. 5% + 6% = 11% )
They are definitely multiplicative.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
I’m sure damage multipliers are additive in this game (eg. 5% + 6% = 11% )
Test it if you don’t believe us.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:
3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
I guess I used some terms incorrectly.
(edited by Khristophoros.7194)
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
It wont even at max attack speed because of its 50% chance. just compare the coeffs then fire averaging one proc every 7.5s means it applies a coeff of 0.1133 pers. The way im looking at it is fire is additive to coeff applied and force is multiplicative.
As long as the 5% increase of all your outgoing damage is greater than 0.113 coeff a sec force is better. This also does depend on weapon type that you are using and its attack speed as well as what utilities you are using and how lucky you are with procs.
Its also relative. Fire may do better of high attack speed builds with a dagger or shroud auto but force would be better for things like GS or grave digger spam.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
It wont even at max attack speed because of its 50% chance. just compare the coeffs then fire averaging one proc every 7.5s means it applies a coeff of 0.1133 pers. The way im looking at it is fire is additive to coeff applied and force is multiplicative.
As long as the 5% increase of all your outgoing damage is greater than 0.113 coeff a sec force is better. This also does depend on weapon type that you are using and its attack speed as well as what utilities you are using and how lucky you are with procs.
Its also relative. Fire may do better of high attack speed builds with a dagger or shroud auto but force would be better for things like GS or grave digger spam.
You can just adjust the 5% by your crit numbers to figure out the relative benefit compared to the sigil of fire coefficient.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
It wont even at max attack speed because of its 50% chance. just compare the coeffs then fire averaging one proc every 7.5s means it applies a coeff of 0.1133 pers. The way im looking at it is fire is additive to coeff applied and force is multiplicative.
As long as the 5% increase of all your outgoing damage is greater than 0.113 coeff a sec force is better. This also does depend on weapon type that you are using and its attack speed as well as what utilities you are using and how lucky you are with procs.
Its also relative. Fire may do better of high attack speed builds with a dagger or shroud auto but force would be better for things like GS or grave digger spam.
You can just adjust the 5% by your crit numbers to figure out the relative benefit compared to the sigil of fire coefficient.
totally forgot. In that case force always wins by my maths.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
It wont even at max attack speed because of its 50% chance. just compare the coeffs then fire averaging one proc every 7.5s means it applies a coeff of 0.1133 pers. The way im looking at it is fire is additive to coeff applied and force is multiplicative.
As long as the 5% increase of all your outgoing damage is greater than 0.113 coeff a sec force is better. This also does depend on weapon type that you are using and its attack speed as well as what utilities you are using and how lucky you are with procs.
Its also relative. Fire may do better of high attack speed builds with a dagger or shroud auto but force would be better for things like GS or grave digger spam.
You can just adjust the 5% by your crit numbers to figure out the relative benefit compared to the sigil of fire coefficient.
totally forgot. In that case force always wins by my maths.
How do you figure? Even when you assume fire only procs every 7.5s, force would break even if you had 226% crit damage and 100% crit chance. If you manage to get fire to proc every 5s it should always beat sigil of force.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
It wont even at max attack speed because of its 50% chance. just compare the coeffs then fire averaging one proc every 7.5s means it applies a coeff of 0.1133 pers. The way im looking at it is fire is additive to coeff applied and force is multiplicative.
As long as the 5% increase of all your outgoing damage is greater than 0.113 coeff a sec force is better. This also does depend on weapon type that you are using and its attack speed as well as what utilities you are using and how lucky you are with procs.
Its also relative. Fire may do better of high attack speed builds with a dagger or shroud auto but force would be better for things like GS or grave digger spam.
You can just adjust the 5% by your crit numbers to figure out the relative benefit compared to the sigil of fire coefficient.
totally forgot. In that case force always wins by my maths.
How do you figure? Even when you assume fire only procs every 7.5s, force would break even if you had 226% crit damage and 100% crit chance. If you manage to get fire to proc every 5s it should always beat sigil of force.
Fire is only additive to your damage and will only add 0.113 to 0.17 to your dps assuming you proc it every 5s, again very unlikely. 100% crit chance is easy to come by for reaper and in pve so force is actually much better as a modifier being a relative ~12%.
Assuming 100% crits, 226% crit damage, and using RS auto attack only fire would add still only 0.113 to 0.17 to your dps where as force would add but force would then add 0.287 coeffs a second. Blows it out the water. Any other damage you have going out is then also multiplied by force where as fire is just fire.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
It wont even at max attack speed because of its 50% chance. just compare the coeffs then fire averaging one proc every 7.5s means it applies a coeff of 0.1133 pers. The way im looking at it is fire is additive to coeff applied and force is multiplicative.
As long as the 5% increase of all your outgoing damage is greater than 0.113 coeff a sec force is better. This also does depend on weapon type that you are using and its attack speed as well as what utilities you are using and how lucky you are with procs.
Its also relative. Fire may do better of high attack speed builds with a dagger or shroud auto but force would be better for things like GS or grave digger spam.
You can just adjust the 5% by your crit numbers to figure out the relative benefit compared to the sigil of fire coefficient.
totally forgot. In that case force always wins by my maths.
How do you figure? Even when you assume fire only procs every 7.5s, force would break even if you had 226% crit damage and 100% crit chance. If you manage to get fire to proc every 5s it should always beat sigil of force.
Fire is only additive to your damage and will only add 0.113 to 0.17 to your dps assuming you proc it every 5s, again very unlikely. 100% crit chance is easy to come by for reaper and in pve so force is actually much better as a modifier being a relative ~12%.
Assuming 100% crits, 226% crit damage, and using RS auto attack only fire would add still only 0.113 to 0.17 to your dps where as force would add but force would then add 0.287 coeffs a second. Blows it out the water. Any other damage you have going out is then also multiplied by force where as fire is just fire.
Sigil of Fire is multiplied by all the other % modifiers, same as Sigil of Force, so I don’t see where you’re getting this from.
Really don’t understand where you’re getting 0.287 from especially. If you crit for 226% every hit, that 5% becomes 5 * 2.26 = 11.3%, or 0.113.
With how much damage sigil of fire does i think.
It has a 0.85 power coefficient, but I was assuming it procs every time the cooldown is up.
That wasnt what i meant. How did you get 3.1k for it?
at 3851 power it should be assuming GS:3851*0.85*1047 / (1800~2600). Thats around 1.3~1.9k before modifiers.
I meant relative to other power coefficients. It should work out fine to compare it to how much of a power coefficient over time you’ll need in order to make the sigil of force match it. If you follow my math to the end you’ll see that’s how my comparison works and you’d need 1.845 coefficient per second to beat sigil of fire assuming it always procs every 5s.
It wont even at max attack speed because of its 50% chance. just compare the coeffs then fire averaging one proc every 7.5s means it applies a coeff of 0.1133 pers. The way im looking at it is fire is additive to coeff applied and force is multiplicative.
As long as the 5% increase of all your outgoing damage is greater than 0.113 coeff a sec force is better. This also does depend on weapon type that you are using and its attack speed as well as what utilities you are using and how lucky you are with procs.
Its also relative. Fire may do better of high attack speed builds with a dagger or shroud auto but force would be better for things like GS or grave digger spam.
You can just adjust the 5% by your crit numbers to figure out the relative benefit compared to the sigil of fire coefficient.
totally forgot. In that case force always wins by my maths.
How do you figure? Even when you assume fire only procs every 7.5s, force would break even if you had 226% crit damage and 100% crit chance. If you manage to get fire to proc every 5s it should always beat sigil of force.
Fire is only additive to your damage and will only add 0.113 to 0.17 to your dps assuming you proc it every 5s, again very unlikely. 100% crit chance is easy to come by for reaper and in pve so force is actually much better as a modifier being a relative ~12%.
Assuming 100% crits, 226% crit damage, and using RS auto attack only fire would add still only 0.113 to 0.17 to your dps where as force would add but force would then add 0.287 coeffs a second. Blows it out the water. Any other damage you have going out is then also multiplied by force where as fire is just fire.
Sigil of Fire is multiplied by all the other % modifiers, same as Sigil of Force, so I don’t see where you’re getting this from.
Really don’t understand where you’re getting 0.287 from especially. If you crit for 226% every hit, that 5% becomes 5 * 2.26 = 11.3%, or 0.113.
The only modifier im using is critical damage, which fire cannot get. All other modifiers are totally moot in the example but there is a mistake i made but force still wins. Also read the example i said:
Assuming 100% crits, 226% crit damage, and using RS auto attack
Reaper auto attack takes 2.17 with onslaught. It has a total coeff of 2.44 or about 1.161 coeffs a second. Now assuming all crits you can multiply that by 2.26 for crit damage so its 2.54 coeffs a second.
Fire would add to this on average 0.113 making it 2.653 coeffs a sec. Force would multiply by this since its multiplicative not additive. Meaning its 2.667. If it procced every 5s, highly unlikely, fire would win out by 0.004 coeffs a second but that only counting auto attack damage. Any other ability that you have active doing damage be it wells or locus swarm will also get modified by crit as well as force meaning force wins out over all over fire regardless.
Depending on weapon force scales accordingly but fire gets worse since it gets harder to proc it. due to things like attack speed and RNG.
Fire proc can’t crit? Did not know that.
So Blood + Force? Even with valk + crit traits? I’m thinking the focus trait for PvE DPS, plus Close to Death, plus Force, plus Strength or Scholar…
Since we’ve got a lot of maths people in here, how does GS RS1 compare to staff RS1?
Mad Skullz | 80 Necro | Piken Square
Fire proc can’t crit? Did not know that.
So Blood + Force? Even with valk + crit traits? I’m thinking the focus trait for PvE DPS, plus Close to Death, plus Force, plus Strength or Scholar…
Since we’ve got a lot of maths people in here, how does GS RS1 compare to staff RS1?
Both weapons have the same average base damage at 1100. GS has less variance with higher minimum damage but lower maximum damage. More reliable.
They average out to the same over time though. Doesn’t really matter imo. It matters more which weapon you want to use when you’re not in shroud.