Guild Wars 2

I’ve seen lots of threads discussing why siphoning is bad in its current implementation, why it has dangerous scaling potential, and I’ve even seen a few Dev posts on the matter. With the new Signet of Vampirism, which is a riff on siphoning, sucking so badly comparing to its contemporaries, I figured it’s time to sit down and have a proper discussion on this topic.
The purpose of this thread is to try and identify the issues we currently have with siphoning, both in skills and traits, and figure out ways to improve them that could be implemented. Hopefully, as part of the Dev’s new CDI initiative, we’ll get some red posts, but if not, they’ll at least have this as a resource.
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DISCUSSION POINTS

Currently, I think there are four things that are holding back siphoning from achieving it’s full potential (feel free to discuss any others; this is just a starting point):
1) Deathshroud: This has been beaten to death, but siphoning does not work with DS. It seems rather lame to me that our primary class mechanic interferes with our traits (among other things), but having played in the Betas, I do recall the Necro bunkers that wrecked the PvP scene. I’m not sure what can be done about this, but if nothing else, I would like to see the Signet of Vampirism passive (along with other Signet passives) be useful; right now, DS kind of wrecks the skill since you lose a lot of its benefits.
2) Base Values/Scaling: The current problem with a lot of siphoning traits is that they are balanced on the presumption that we have maximized their potential – we have five enemies, standing on three different wells that keep critting, while we drop critical marks on all five of them; or we have all minions attacking while we crit marks on 5 enemies. In these cases, you could say siphoning is really high, but the problem is that siphoning is something that naturally scales: if you are gaining lots of health by hitting lots of people, you’ll also be losing lots of health as all to your foes won’t just be passive dummies. When transferred to a 1v1 scenario, though, the numbers scale down terribly – the 30-60ish health is effectively nothing against attacks that hit for thousands.
3) Bloodthirst: I really hate this trait, because due to it’s existence, all siphoning has to be toned down in base values in order to account for a possible power-up that not everyone will take. If you don’t take Bloodthirst, you essentially kitten yourself. I would rather all base values be set to Base+Bloodthirst and have something else so that Necros aren’t forced to take this trait to maximize other ones.
4) Trait Positioning: This one may be contentious, but I feel like siphoning could easily be turned up if Vampiric weren’t a “free” obligatory trait you had to take while going down Blood Magic. I would rather have Vampiric be more powerful and moved up into Master Major than it’s current incarnation. The other issue is that siphons appear to be balanced to be utilized all together; but not every necro wants to run three Major vampiric traits (Precision, Bloodthirst & Master, or some other combination), and not every Necro wants to go that deep into Blood Magic. If we had to choose between different siphon traits, they could all be individually powered up, as you would not achieve the same critical mass.

I don’t think the above are all of the issues Siphoning currently faces, and I don’t presume to have the solutions to all of these issues. However, I feel like if we at least have one centralized place to discuss things, more good might come of it.

Siphons are rubbish as Anet think we would become to powerful if they were actually WORTH getting.

The Base heals need to at least be 100, Look at the Warrior and Ele signets for healing. Now compare that to the Siphons from traits you would need a good 4-5 seconds to get the same sort of heals that just ONE proc gives you on the Ele and Warrior signets.

The Necro Signet is pathetic, even before they released the game they thought it was so strong that they nerfed it into being useless in only a way that Anet knows how.

Siphons will never be buffed, personally i think they should just remove them altogether along with the siphons from skills and replace them with something that they WILL balance

I wanted to try a build that has 100% crit with high armor and see if I could sustain my health via siphons that way.

The only thing is if it wasn’t useful I didn’t want to waste my laurels so I haven’t tried it yet.

Stx.4857:

I wanted to try a build that has 100% crit with high armor and see if I could sustain my health via siphons that way.

The only thing is if it wasn’t useful I didn’t want to waste my laurels so I haven’t tried it yet.

Simple answer – No it isnt, No need to waste time and Laurels as it simply isnt. The Siphons scale poorly with stats such as Healing power as well which really doesnt help.

1) I think our own personal passive healing should work through DS. Siphons at least, probably regen, but not other people’s healing, and not our own healing like WoB. I think this would be balanced as a base skill if they implement something else that is a response later.

2) This is simple to fix: ICDs on Vampiric and Vampiric Precision. A 1s ICD, significantly buff the values with it, Vampiric Rituals remains ICD less because wells have their own limiters via durations.

3) Bloodthirst is fine actually, I think. It helps gate certain issues itself, because to have a fully selfish siphon build essentially stops you from being able to also have a supporty build. Otherwise, you could have full siphoning and support options.

4) The only thing I think they need to do here is drop vampiric rituals to the 20 slot, and then add in a new trait at 30 that turns all your personal siphoning into AoE siphoning. Essentially, it takes all the selfishness that you got from the first 20 traits, and turns them into team support.

This way, there are significant options. MM necros will essentially stay where they are, whereas the rest will not only gain the ability to fully trait selfishly via wells/BT, but also trait supporty siphon via the new 30. Its actually not too hard to fix imo, via ICDs, a new trait, and some numbers work.

Bhawb.7408:

4) The only thing I think they need to do here is drop vampiric rituals to the 20 slot, and then add in a new trait at 30 that turns all your personal siphoning into AoE siphoning. Essentially, it takes all the selfishness that you got from the first 20 traits, and turns them into team support.

I definitely wouldn’t be happy if they decided to do that one. The 20 slot clashes with ritual mastery and I prefer to have my wells heal and be on a very short timer.

With my current well build and my clerics gear those two traits alone can allow me to solo a Champion easily without panic stations setting in. The 3 wells can easily heal me up from 60% to 100% without having to use WoB and the combination of those 2 traits help in giving it great survivability.

You could still do that. If you wanted more selfish healing, then you still trait the same as you do now; it wouldn’t change it at all. It would simply drop it down a tier (it isn’t worthy of 30 points), and open up for a true GM trait.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Stx.4857:

I wanted to try a build that has 100% crit with high armor and see if I could sustain my health via siphons that way.

The only thing is if it wasn’t useful I didn’t want to waste my laurels so I haven’t tried it yet.

Simple answer – No it isnt, No need to waste time and Laurels as it simply isnt. The Siphons scale poorly with stats such as Healing power as well which really doesnt help.

I would never use healing power, it gimps damage too much…

My idea was to use the Knights gear that has precision as a main stats plus runes and traits and food to reach 100% crit(with Fury), and thus proccing Vampiric Precision on EVERY attack. Auto attacking with the dagger would heal for roughly 300 per second from vampiric precision+vampiric, and then you add on blood sigil, lifesteal food, regen boon, etc.

I thought maybe it would be enough to build around but meh.

Bhawb.7408:

You could still do that. If you wanted more selfish healing, then you still trait the same as you do now; it wouldn’t change it at all. It would simply drop it down a tier (it isn’t worthy of 30 points), and open up for a true GM trait.

Yeah I see what you mean now and yeah I think it would be good to have a different 30 point trait. But would an area team heal not clash with transfusion?

So it would more than likely mean that transfusion would be lowered or do you think there could be a way to have 2 team heals and keep balance?

Scarran.9845:

So it would more than likely mean that transfusion would be lowered or do you think there could be a way to have 2 team heals and keep balance?

The 30 point trait would only turn your personal siphoning into team siphoning. To get both Transfusion and that trait, you would only be able to have 2 siphoning traits (vampiric and one of bloodthirst, vampiric precision, or vampiric rituals), making both your person and team healing weaker from that 30 point trait.

Bhawb.7408:

Scarran.9845:

So it would more than likely mean that transfusion would be lowered or do you think there could be a way to have 2 team heals and keep balance?

The 30 point trait would only turn your personal siphoning into team siphoning. To get both Transfusion and that trait, you would only be able to have 2 siphoning traits (vampiric and one of bloodthirst, vampiric precision, or vampiric rituals), making both your person and team healing weaker from that 30 point trait.

Sounds good to me Bhawb, next stage is to get you voted onto the dev team. You don’t have to have a clue on development you can just be the umpire to make sure anything coming our way has been Bhawb approved.

Alot of your idea’s are far better than what ive seen implemented from the development team.

Bhawb.7408:

3) Bloodthirst is fine actually, I think. It helps gate certain issues itself, because to have a fully selfish siphon build essentially stops you from being able to also have a supporty build. Otherwise, you could have full siphoning and support options.

I agree with everything else you said, except for this. Maye if they buffed siphoning to meaningful, and upped the support Blood Magic provides, this would be true. As it is, I think Bloodthirst is just pointless limiter you’re forced into.

As it is now, I agree. But I don’t think BT itself is an issue, I think the tree is mostly an issue.

Siphoning don’t need buff. You know why? Because MM will be immortal.

Stx.4857:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Stx.4857:

I wanted to try a build that has 100% crit with high armor and see if I could sustain my health via siphons that way.

The only thing is if it wasn’t useful I didn’t want to waste my laurels so I haven’t tried it yet.

Simple answer – No it isnt, No need to waste time and Laurels as it simply isnt. The Siphons scale poorly with stats such as Healing power as well which really doesnt help.

I would never use healing power, it gimps damage too much…

My idea was to use the Knights gear that has precision as a main stats plus runes and traits and food to reach 100% crit(with Fury), and thus proccing Vampiric Precision on EVERY attack. Auto attacking with the dagger would heal for roughly 300 per second from vampiric precision+vampiric, and then you add on blood sigil, lifesteal food, regen boon, etc.

I thought maybe it would be enough to build around but meh.

My current power necro build does this, you can only get up to around 80% crit with Fury though. I do 0/20/0/20/30, knight’s armor and weps with those ascended trinkets that are like Berserker’s but have a tad bit of Vitality on them too. Condi mesmers can screw it over pretty hard, and it’s missing some of the really nice Spite traits, but otherwise it works pretty well and is excellent in duels.

I thought that the new siphon signet would power the build up a bit, but in practice I have found that CC still works better due to its full condi clear. If you don’t use CC then you have to slot something like Well of Power, which is nice but kind of breaks the build’s flow a bit.

Bhawb.7408:

Scarran.9845:

So it would more than likely mean that transfusion would be lowered or do you think there could be a way to have 2 team heals and keep balance?

The 30 point trait would only turn your personal siphoning into team siphoning. To get both Transfusion and that trait, you would only be able to have 2 siphoning traits (vampiric and one of bloodthirst, vampiric precision, or vampiric rituals), making both your person and team healing weaker from that 30 point trait.

How do you envision this working?

A) Every successful direct damage, life siphoning hit the necro makes heals his or her allies for the same amount as the necro themself?

OR

B) It’s a proximity trait that buffs allies within range such that their own attacks now steal health on the basis of which life siphoning traits the necro has slotted?

It’s an interesting suggestion that would transform what, on the surface, appears to be a “selfish” focus and potentially turn it into team support. In other words, necros are personally rewarded the more aggressive they are (consistent with design philosophy). With this suggested trait, necros could then benefit their team despite being traited to maximize aggression and “selfishness”.

The downside to it is, with the ability to now heal a party (I’m assuming this trait would be limited to benefiting a max of 4 or 5 allied players), it’s all the more justification on the part of ArenaNet to keep our siphoning numbers low. This would be due to their fear of that theoretical OP scenario (that would exist only in their heads) of a necro single-handedly healing his or her entire team through every possible encounter. Keeping our siphons low is the opposite direction of where we need to be going.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Siphoning don’t need buff. You know why? Because MM will be immortal.

So MM should be the only valid option?

Hint: Buffs are needed for non-MM builds. If MM is too strong then adjust accordingly.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Siphoning don’t need buff. You know why? Because MM will be immortal.

You do know that MM isn’t the only Necromancer build.

@Kraag

Your first idea was what I was meaning.

Also, due to the current nature of their traiting, it wouldn’t be possible to be fully selfish and still heal your team. You would need to forgo one of the three (minions wouldn’t proc it) siphoning traits. So it is a trait that literally adds no selfish healing than if you just sat with 20 points, much like how Transfusion turns a skill from selfish to non-selfish.

It might not work directly as-is, but the idea of turning selfish into team-support is something I think needs to be added.

Bhawb.7408:

@Kraag

Your first idea was what I was meaning.

Also, due to the current nature of their traiting, it wouldn’t be possible to be fully selfish and still heal your team. You would need to forgo one of the three (minions wouldn’t proc it) siphoning traits. So it is a trait that literally adds no selfish healing than if you just sat with 20 points, much like how Transfusion turns a skill from selfish to non-selfish.

It might not work directly as-is, but the idea of turning selfish into team-support is something I think needs to be added.

Would life siphoning from food, runes, and sigils the necro has equipped be included? If so, then a necro using your suggested trait could provide a decent background trickle of health for his or her teammates. This could then synergize in one of two ways:

A) Frees teammates to take a different skill or trait than the one they were previously using to provide passive health gain.

OR

B) Allows teammates to “double up” on their passive healing when using their own skills or traits in conjunction with the newly suggested necro trait.

If it’s to be a grandmaster trait, I’d go so far as to suggest that the AOE healing apply when not in DS and it switches to self-healing only when in DS. Issues of balance, scaling, healing power coefficients, etc. are another discussion entirely. This is just to float the idea of healing while in DS via a trait; something already suggested in previous posts, but which I mention here in conjunction with your new suggestion.

lettucemode.3789:

Stx.4857:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Stx.4857:

I wanted to try a build that has 100% crit with high armor and see if I could sustain my health via siphons that way.

The only thing is if it wasn’t useful I didn’t want to waste my laurels so I haven’t tried it yet.

Simple answer – No it isnt, No need to waste time and Laurels as it simply isnt. The Siphons scale poorly with stats such as Healing power as well which really doesnt help.

I would never use healing power, it gimps damage too much…

My idea was to use the Knights gear that has precision as a main stats plus runes and traits and food to reach 100% crit(with Fury), and thus proccing Vampiric Precision on EVERY attack. Auto attacking with the dagger would heal for roughly 300 per second from vampiric precision+vampiric, and then you add on blood sigil, lifesteal food, regen boon, etc.

I thought maybe it would be enough to build around but meh.

My current power necro build does this, you can only get up to around 80% crit with Fury though. I do 0/20/0/20/30, knight’s armor and weps with those ascended trinkets that are like Berserker’s but have a tad bit of Vitality on them too. Condi mesmers can screw it over pretty hard, and it’s missing some of the really nice Spite traits, but otherwise it works pretty well and is excellent in duels.

I thought that the new siphon signet would power the build up a bit, but in practice I have found that CC still works better due to its full condi clear. If you don’t use CC then you have to slot something like Well of Power, which is nice but kind of breaks the build’s flow a bit.

That’s almost the same as what I run. 0/20/0/20/30 with mostly Knights but a mix of Berserker and Cavalier. I love the build but I was thinking there must be some way to improve it with the patch but I’m not sure yet. I really want 10 Spite but don’t want to give up anything.

I swear to god I hate how they designed these forums. Second post in a row that got thrown out for a stupid error

/rant

Only traited siphoning that the Necro themselves does would count, simply because allowing others would end up with them balancing around those. So if food/sigils/runes were allowed, then it’d end up being the only viable way to make the trait work, and all others would end up very meh (just like our siphons suffer from now).

I like your second idea though, to include DS. Adds more active play on both sides of the fight.

Bhawb.7408:

I swear to god I hate how they designed these forums. Second post in a row that got thrown out for a stupid error

You can download Chrome/Firefox add-ons/extensions that save form input data, so if you time out, all you’d have to do is hit “Back” to return to the posting window with all your text there, ready to be copy/pasted.

Or I could keep whining about it. I’m a Necromancer, whining seems the obvious choice.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Siphoning don’t need buff. You know why? Because MM will be immortal.

You do know that MM isn’t the only Necromancer build.

It is only build which get profit from siphoning. Only way to give siphoning to other builds – nerf vampiric mastery.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Siphoning don’t need buff. You know why? Because MM will be immortal.

You do know that MM isn’t the only Necromancer build.

It is only build which get profit from siphoning. Only way to give siphoning to other builds – nerf vampiric mastery.

I said this in another forum thread and lots of people jumped on me. I’m glad that at least one other person understands this obvious truth.

Stx.4857:

I said this in another forum thread and lots of people jumped on me. I’m glad that at least one other person understands this obvious truth.

But it shouldn’t be nerfed, because it will completely ruin MM.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Stx.4857:

I said this in another forum thread and lots of people jumped on me. I’m glad that at least one other person understands this obvious truth.

But it shouldn’t be nerfed, because it will completely ruin MM.

If they buff baseline siphoning, and nerf that minion siphoning trait, everybody wins. The way it is currently, only minion builds can be siphoners, which is just wrong.

MM Necromancers will only ever want access to two siphon traits: Vampiric and Vampiric Master. Anything more will be at great cost to their entire build (not getting Rituals, Vampiric Precision is vastly subpar to at least 2 10 point options).

Wouldn’t do much of anything if they actually made non-MM siphons good, as literally only one trait would be affected (vampiric).

Stx.4857:

That’s almost the same as what I run. 0/20/0/20/30 with mostly Knights but a mix of Berserker and Cavalier. I love the build but I was thinking there must be some way to improve it with the patch but I’m not sure yet. I really want 10 Spite but don’t want to give up anything.

Try the buffed Grandmaster minors in Death and Blood, they are pretty nice now.

Last night, I decided to go crazy and mix it up…switched to 20/0/25/25/0, same everything else. Turns out I like it a bit more! It just feels…free-er, or something. My overall damage and survivability actually increased (despite the loss of stability) thanks to those minors and the buffed Reaper’s Protection. Pretty weird but it ended up working out…give it a shot and see what you think.

lettucemode.3789:

Stx.4857:

That’s almost the same as what I run. 0/20/0/20/30 with mostly Knights but a mix of Berserker and Cavalier. I love the build but I was thinking there must be some way to improve it with the patch but I’m not sure yet. I really want 10 Spite but don’t want to give up anything.

Try the buffed Grandmaster minors in Death and Blood, they are pretty nice now.

Last night, I decided to go crazy and mix it up…switched to 20/0/25/25/0, same everything else. Turns out I like it a bit more! It just feels…free-er, or something. My overall damage and survivability actually increased (despite the loss of stability) thanks to those minors and the buffed Reaper’s Protection. Pretty weird but it ended up working out…give it a shot and see what you think.

Hmm… did you miss the SR 15 pt at all? I love my auto spectral armor…

I have tried 10/20/25/0/15.. That has worked pretty well, although as always, I miss my Blood traits.

Stx.4857:

Hmm… did you miss the SR 15 pt at all? I love my auto spectral armor…

I have tried 10/20/25/0/15.. That has worked pretty well, although as always, I miss my Blood traits.

I didn’t notice it, actually…then again I am just getting back into the game after a long break. I forgot that trait even existed, heh. I’ll play my current build some while aware of the difference, then give 10/0/25/20/15 a shot. I will miss Chill of Death, though.

So many good traits, and I can’t have them all…argh!

lettucemode.3789:

Stx.4857:

Hmm… did you miss the SR 15 pt at all? I love my auto spectral armor…

I have tried 10/20/25/0/15.. That has worked pretty well, although as always, I miss my Blood traits.

I didn’t notice it, actually…then again I am just getting back into the game after a long break. I forgot that trait even existed, heh. I’ll play my current build some while aware of the difference, then give 10/0/25/20/15 a shot. I will miss Chill of Death, though.

So many good traits, and I can’t have them all…argh!

10/0/25/20/15 is another one I want to try but giving up 20 in Curses would be so hard for me. Fury, higher crit, Chill of Death, Weakening Shroud, and especially Spectral Attunement.

So many good traits indeed =(

I’ve posted it before, but give 0/20/0/20/30 shroud dancing build a look. Pop in and out of DS to eat hits, use a quick DS skills or two, proc fury/stability, back to normal mode.
D/D + A/WH
Mostly Knights w/ some Celestial
Banshee’s Wail + whatever you want in Curses.
Vampiric Precision + Bloodthirst/Transfusion
Path of Midnight + Near To Death + Foot in the Grave

It has a good mix of damage/tankiness. Its not tied to any particular type of utility skill so feel free to mix and match. Drop Path of Midnight if you wanna run Spectral Mastery for Spectral utilities. Trade Bloodthirsty/Transfusion for the corresponding Vampiric Master/Ritual Mastery if you want to run Minions or Wells. If you’re strictly doing PvE you can even swap Foot in the Grave for Deathly Perception for burst. I personally play it unfocused on any utility type and run Consume Conditions/Well of Power/Flesh Golem and swap out the last two utilities based on situational need. It’s a great build all around. It’s not the best at bunkering or dealing out damage, but very adaptable and unlike pure well siphon/bunker builds isn’t confined to popping cooldowns and keeping enemies in your wells. I like that with Deathly Swarm + Consume Conditions + Well of Power I have great condi removal for PvP. Overall, it gets some great “low hanging” fruit out of both damage and healing.

0/20/0/20/30 is a great build and before the patch it was the build I used for WvW.

It is great for Wells(they have nice synergy with Deathly Perception), and when not in a group you can make it a spectral/siphon build that has decent damage, high armor, and nice sustain.

I’m probably going to face the Wrath of the Forum for saying this, but I feel Vampiric Master limits build diversity, and makes siphoning harder to scale. Then again, I feel our defensive trait lines need some work in general.

jpersson.7368:

I’m probably going to face the Wrath of the Forum for saying this, but I feel Vampiric Master limits build diversity, and makes siphoning harder to scale. Then again, I feel our defensive trait lines need some work in general.

Don’t be afraid, you are correct.

Stx.4857:

Don’t be afraid, you are correct.

Afraid is not the right word.

It’s a thin line dedication-prestige, especially on internet forums. This is a good discussion and I don’t want to see it derailed or watered down.

jpersson.7368:

I’m probably going to face the Wrath of the Forum for saying this, but I feel Vampiric Master limits build diversity, and makes siphoning harder to scale. Then again, I feel our defensive trait lines need some work in general.

In general I don’t. Vampiric Master is what makes MM siphoning work. Without it, MMs in PvP would be vastly less viable. And 99% of MMs don’t take any other non-mandatory (aka Vampiric) siphoning.

So if they buff Vampiric/BT/Vampiric Precision/Vampiric Rituals, they’d only buff a single trait that MMs take: Vampiric. If this unbalances MMs, simply shave the additional HP/s off Vampiric Master to compensate (so if Vampiric gets an overall buff of 50 HP/s, take the same off Vampiric Master’s total with 4-5 minions up).

jpersson.7368:

Stx.4857:

Don’t be afraid, you are correct.

Afraid is not the right word.

It’s a thin line dedication-prestige, especially on internet forums. This is a good discussion and I don’t want to see it derailed or watered down.

I also agree that Vampiric Master limits siphoning, but only because of how siphon traits are located in the tree. If there was more competition between them, I think it would make Blood a lot more interesting and easier to balance.
In my dream world, I would shuffle Blood traits around as follows:

Adept: Vampiric Precision (buffed healing, lower frequency), Vampiric*
Master: Vampiric Master, Vampiric Rituals
Grandmaster: Something that shares siphons.

*Move Mark of Evasion up to the 15 point slot, remove ICD (we have no vigor anyway).

In this way, you are forced to choose between the more powerful Vampiric Precision which occurs less often, or Vampiric, which will be weaker but ever-present without commitment. Then, you get your choice between minions. wells, or the other passive on-hit trait you skipped. Lastly, continuing with Bhawb’s idea, you can then share the healing.
Under my ideal set up above, you have the following options, with comparative healing:

1. Spec Minions and Precision – Medium sustained healing, small burst healing.
2. Spec Wells and Precision – High burst healing.
3. Spec Vampiric and Minions – High sustained healing.
4. Spec Wells and Vampiric – Medium burst healing, small sustained healing.
5. Spec Vampiric and Precision – Small burst and sustained healing, free utilities.

Bhawb.7408:

In general I don’t. Vampiric Master is what makes MM siphoning work.

I understand changing Vampiric Master affects existing builds, but I guess any change would do that.

I was commenting build diversity. Do you feel we have a good build diversity when it comes to siphoning?

No, but nerfing Vampiric Master changes nothing, nor does buffing the other 4 siphon-related traits unbalance MMs.

Bhawb.7408:

No, but nerfing Vampiric Master changes nothing, nor does buffing the other 4 siphon-related traits unbalance MMs.

You are absolutely certain that if VM were to be left alone, and that VP and Vampiric were buffed up to a level that would make them useful to non-minion builds, that Minion Master builds wouldn’t trade in Transfusion, MoE, Fetid consumption, or even Bloodthirst for VP?

I mean, Vampiric is picked up by MM Necros regardless, so if it got the buff it deserved, MM’s would get a buff either way, very possibly pushing their self healing into crazy land.

Stx.4857:

You are absolutely certain that if VM were to be left alone, and that VP and Vampiric were buffed up to a level that would make them useful to non-minion builds, that Minion Master builds wouldn’t trade in Transfusion, MoE, Fetid consumption, or even Bloodthirst for VP?

I mean, Vampiric is picked up by MM Necros regardless, so if it got the buff it deserved, MM’s would get a buff either way, very possibly pushing their self healing into crazy land.

And like I said, you can just drop Vampiric Master’s HP/s down by the same amount Vampiric’s was buffed.

And yes, I’m sure. Fetid Consumption isn’t even a guess; if they got rid of it for a little more siphoning they should uninstall now. Bloodthirst is rarely taken, and is just a straight math equation: is Vampiric Precisions healing > 20% of Vampiric/Vampiric Master. In the majority of MM builds (at least the ones where balance matters, AKA PvP) no, not at all. In fact Bloodthirst is strictly worse in most builds than Mark of Evasion.

Mark of Evasion and Transfusion (especially transfusion) are just too good to give up. Why would I take a bit more HP/s from crits, when I don’t even want to waste stats on crit chance, and can take a skill that will heal my minions or allies for 5k? Mark of Evasion does the same thing, but spread out via regen, and with a cover condition/damage. Again requiring no crit chance, which again is a very rare stat on MMs.

So yes, from my very extensive experience as an MM, I highly doubt any sane MM would ever slot Vampiric Precision, Bloodthirst, or (god forbid) Vampiric Rituals.

Bhawb.7408:

Stx.4857:

You are absolutely certain that if VM were to be left alone, and that VP and Vampiric were buffed up to a level that would make them useful to non-minion builds, that Minion Master builds wouldn’t trade in Transfusion, MoE, Fetid consumption, or even Bloodthirst for VP?

I mean, Vampiric is picked up by MM Necros regardless, so if it got the buff it deserved, MM’s would get a buff either way, very possibly pushing their self healing into crazy land.

And like I said, you can just drop Vampiric Master’s HP/s down by the same amount Vampiric’s was buffed.

^ That is basically what I have been saying.

Bhawb.7408:

No, but nerfing Vampiric Master changes nothing, nor does buffing the other 4 siphon-related traits unbalance MMs.

Maybe I blame Vampiric Master for our issues with siphoning? You could be right.

I think we basically share the same goal, and I see this as an iterative process: buffing this, nerfing that. The question is, in what order? Actually — I don’t care in what order, as long as the process starts.

In the case of siphoning traits, they should start with buffing the bad ones before they nerf the good ones. If they don’t, then we are garunteed to have a period where all siphoning is useless. I’d rather err on it being a little too strong so it would at least be a choice considered.

jpersson.7368:

Bhawb.7408:

No, but nerfing Vampiric Master changes nothing, nor does buffing the other 4 siphon-related traits unbalance MMs.

Maybe I blame Vampiric Master for our issues with siphoning? You could be right.

I think we basically share the same goal, and I see this as an iterative process: buffing this, nerfing that. The question is, in what order? Actually — I don’t care in what order, as long as the process starts.

I think the more pertinent question is why buff/nerf or nerf/buff in any particular order? Why do only one or the other for patch X, then introduce the second half in patch Y? This only leads to the off-balance situation we see time after time with their “balance” patches in which certain builds then become or remain OP or UP.

A better alternative has already been suggested by Bhawb:

Bhawb.7408:

So if they buff Vampiric/BT/Vampiric Precision/Vampiric Rituals, they’d only buff a single trait that MMs take: Vampiric. If this unbalances MMs, simply shave the additional HP/s off Vampiric Master to compensate (so if Vampiric gets an overall buff of 50 HP/s, take the same off Vampiric Master’s total with 4-5 minions up).

But implement this in a single patch rather than dragging it out over one or two quarterly patches over a period of 3 to 6 months. Otherwise, siphoning continues to remain lack-luster as they slowly tweak it and/or MMs become OP or UP and have to suffer for months until the devs get around to fixing it.

Non-minion life-siphoning is insufficient to provide reliable sustain. The math has been done, the evidence presented, and it debated to death on the forum for over a year. Buff life-siphoning already! (and adjust Vampiric Master as Bhawb suggests if it’s felt this is necessary to prevent MMs from becoming OP).

But I do agree with you that the process has to start. It really should have started about…oh…say…12 months ago.