That is not the problem, the problem is that you can’t really CC the ele in mist form to prevent the stomp… but you can CC the necro in DS to prevent the stomp… and yes, you can go 30 SR but then you are limited to only one build, mist form is a spell…
You both are right. It is a fact that you can deathshroud stomp enemies when you perfect the timing. But it is also right that eles can just click a button and are invulnerable to CC, damage and everything else without perfecting anything. I would be fine with us just being able to rez and stomp in deathshroud, no matter of stability or whatever. A 30SR build would at least be worth then.
Why can ele stomp in mist form without being harmed at all and we cant even stomp in deathshroud?
Enuerus Derune – Necromancer, Sylvari
[NO] ~ Ponys Will Never Die
Why do you guys compare a COMPLETE INVULNERABILITY SKILL like mistform to plague? And why do you compare “press F and then press mistform button” to “press f1 and f in the exact same time and if you fail you cant DS for 10sec because of CD”?
Enuerus Derune – Necromancer, Sylvari
[NO] ~ Ponys Will Never Die
Death shroud is class mechanic on 10 sec CD not utility on 75 sec.
How can you even ask why ele can do this and we cant? Its like asking why mesmer can stealth and we cant.
Now i hope you understand why it would be logical if we wouldnt be able to shroudstomp/res, but we are able to. If pressing 2 buttons at same time is problem to you then you rolled wrong profession.
=) <— adding smiley so people dont attack me with invalid accusations again.
And btw Noerknhar this is your topic so you started the comparing, we have no idea either why you compare elementalist utility to our class mechaninc
Why is Death Shroud / plaqueform / lichform stomp still being suggested as solution to this?
The way to do the stomp can in no way by anyone be seen as proper use and is pretty much just exploiting untill the time ANET figures out how to remove the ability or give us a proper option to do this.
You cant res in Death shroud you cant stomp in Death shroud but hey if your skilled enough to hit the buttons at same time you can………….cmon please.
Why is Death Shroud / plaqueform / lichform stomp still being suggested as solution to this?
The way to do the stomp can in no way by anyone be seen as proper use and is pretty much just exploiting untill the time ANET figures out how to remove the ability or give us a proper option to do this.
You cant res in Death shroud you cant stomp in Death shroud but hey if your skilled enough to hit the buttons at same time you can………….cmon please.
This is absolutely correct. It’s just stupid to say “but hey, you can press 2 buttons at the same time to achieve not even half of what an elementalist can do”. Seriously, that’s just stupid.
Enuerus Derune – Necromancer, Sylvari
[NO] ~ Ponys Will Never Die
Tbh that’s all we really need. Blind is extremely effective at stomping and ours are on relatively short cooldowns. We have a teleport stomp, although it’s a bit more… underdeveloped compared to Mesmer. We also have our own sort of Invincible stomp (Plague Form) that lasts much longer and allows us to do things after the stomp.
Yes, we could use Stability. Other than that, we’re fine.
Contact me ingame for Necro, Ranger, Mesmer, and Thief advice.
Why is Death Shroud / plaqueform / lichform stomp still being suggested as solution to this?
The way to do the stomp can in no way by anyone be seen as proper use and is pretty much just exploiting untill the time ANET figures out how to remove the ability or give us a proper option to do this.
You cant res in Death shroud you cant stomp in Death shroud but hey if your skilled enough to hit the buttons at same time you can………….cmon please.
Where did they said that its not intended this way? Starting stomp then shadowstepping away and back is not exploit but entering DS at same time as stomping is exploit? Maybe they didnt intend to remove shroudstomp but just make it harder. This game has a lot of hidden tricks that you cant just read in tooltip, and anet likes it that way which you can say just by looking at PVP maps where is alot of hidden spots where you can jump up and ledges where you can teleport up.
Edit: Another great example is dodge jump, back in beta when noone knew about this anet didnt mention it cause prolly they didnt know it themselves, and instead of fixing it they made it part of game, now there are spots in multiple pvp maps where you can get only by dodge jump and they even mentioned it in SAB tips. If anet considers something an exploit they fix it otherwise its just smart use of game mechanics.
Maybe they didnt intend to remove shroudstomp but just make it harder.
This is the same excuse that i always read here in this forum. A lack of mechanics doesn’t mean “hey guys, go and make an hard class for real men with ubbahcomplicated combo!!!!”
it just means what it means: a lack of mechanics.
Don’t get me wrong, im not complaining about the shroudstomp, i can live without it (even if it it would be usefull) but it’s clear/obvious that other classes are more complete than us. Just think about the fear. Warrior’s? Thieves? Rangers? just one skill. Necromancer? need a whole build. Avoid damage? tons of buffs. Necromancers? Take all the damage bro!!! We have DS!! And if we want just a little bit of them (buffs) we have to make a whole build around them (so: traits, utilities, runes, sigils etc.) for something not comparable to other classes.
This means that we are underpowered? Of course not, we ca do a lot of things, but still means that we need TONS of balance fixes.
Just my 2 cents (and sorry for mistakes :p)
Ele Mist stomp and Engi Small dunk stomp are the biggest offender in my opinion. Stealth stomp would come second for necro, because only one of our weapon is really a melee attack, the others need a target to hit (and except for Reaper’s Mark, the other marks wont make your target stops the stomp) . Stability when trying to stomp a friend (at least against my necro) is never a issue, I keep Corrupt boon just for those special occasions. Having someone do something that has no counter (except for professions with downed Stealth/Teleport mechanic) will always get the flack.
Transformations should just all function the same. If people can stomp in one, let them all stomp or none at all. Do you know that engineer can stomp while under the effect of Elixir X, not just at the beginning, all the time in that 20 sec of stability… yet we must start the stomp first then use our Plague to make it work. I know there must be a lot of small teams each working on each classes, but it about time they talk to each other and start to normalize the effects across the board.
Mesmer Distort stomp can’t be countered either I don’t think. I could be wrong. I take 30 in SR in pvp and I always shroud stomp. Getting off a Stomp is very important and I feel a lot of games could have been lost if I didn’t have that stability + DS soak. Complete immunity is pretty OP cause you can’t remove them like stability and you can’t damage them. It would be nice if blind stopped stomps.
Okay, I can clearly see that we have two topics in this one that need to be separated:
I: Difference between transformations: elementalist, engineer, necromancer. Ele and engineer can stomp while being invulnerable and they can do that without pressing 2 buttons. They can start the stomp and then – if needed – hit their invulnerability button to safely stomp the enemy. Necromancer can shroudstomp which can only be done by pressing 2 buttons at the same time, so he has to think about whether to do it or not BEFORE he starts to stomp. And even then its…well its no mechanic, its a weird thing to do. Also, necromancer can plague stomp – on a 180sec cooldown which renders the eliteskill pretty useless for that imho. I don’t think we have to always be able to safestomp, I just want to make sure that transformations work the same or our transformation works better than theirs: its the basic class mechanic! Why can’t we rezz? Or even stomp? It just does not make sense at all. Even lore-wise: when entering death shroud we’re still part of our team.
II: Other ways to safely/strangely stomp: I understood that we have :
- plague stomp (stomp and activate plague after that, like mistform on ele)
- shroudstomp (press stomp+shroud buttons at the same time)
- well of darkness (blind the enemy to…not interrupt you when u stomp? doesn’t make sense in many environments, could be helpfull sometimes tho)
- necrotic traversal/spectral walk stomp (sorry, i didnt get that. we can stomp and then while we stomp port away to not get interrupted and the stomp still works? or what? I’m confused, clarify plz)
Enuerus Derune – Necromancer, Sylvari
[NO] ~ Ponys Will Never Die
- well of darkness (blind the enemy to…not interrupt you when u stomp? doesn’t make sense in many environments, could be helpfull sometimes tho)
- necrotic traversal/spectral walk stomp (sorry, i didnt get that. we can stomp and then while we stomp port away to not get interrupted and the stomp still works? or what? I’m confused, clarify plz)
Blind stops enemy-based interrupts on your opponent’s downed kit (Effective on everyone except thieves, elementalists, and I think mesmers, who run away / out of range instead of interrupting) so it will frequently block one attempt at stopping you, which might be the only attempt available.
As I understand it, NT / SW works like so: Cast flesh wurm far from your opponent. Get in range of the stomp, then use spectral walk. Start the stomp, immediately use necrotic traversal. You are now 1200 away from your target, safely out of range of most interrupts, still channeling the stomp. After about 2 1/2 seconds (before the stomp completes) use spectral recall to teleport yourself back to your enemy immediately before the stomp animation ends.
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
they can mist form once every 50-60s (thats a complete guess I dont play ele) and we can shroud stomp every 10s. I love to shroud stomp. I think becase out cooldown is significantly less than the ele’s even though it can be countered by another necro,, our stomp is better.
Grandad Fester / Unruly Pigeon – Necromancer by trade
I think the real objective here should be not when can we invuln stomp like other classes, when will it be changed so they can’t? Stomping should be a risk factor, not a guaranteed success because you can pop an invuln while you do it, but currently fr most classes anyway, there is zero risk involved. Yes we can do a stability stomp if we trait fully into a tree that we shouldn’t have to trait so much into, and we can do it in plague too, but only by a glitch. I don’t think anyone needs the ability to stability/invuln stomp. It takes away any skill involved and gives easy mode button (or buttonS in our case lol)
I agree that Invulnerability stomps should not be possible. Mist Form, Elixer S, and Distortion stomp, at the very least, have to go (possibly Endure Pain, but I think that just makes them immune to damage, not CC and conditions. Haven’t seen it used enough to know). Stability stomps can still be stopped via blinds or boon removal/corruption from an ally (or even just killed, if they’re low enough). Stealth stomps are much more difficult to stop, but it can still be done.
As an aside, necros and thieves are the only professions that can start a stomp, teleport elsewhere for most of the channel, then teleport right back for the end of it. Necros require two stunbreaker skills to do so, however, while thieves only need one skill.
Even if eles and engineers still can safestomp with their invulnerability skills, it makes me sick that we cant even use our deathshroud to achieve a health buffer when stomping/rezzing. But I totally agree that eles and engineers should not be able to stomp while using their mistform or elixir S.
Enuerus Derune – Necromancer, Sylvari
[NO] ~ Ponys Will Never Die
As an aside, necros and thieves are the only professions that can start a stomp, teleport elsewhere for most of the channel, then teleport right back for the end of it.
To be fair, mesmers can do the same with portals (90s CD untraited). Phase Retreat (Staff #2) + Blink could also work but i don’t think that Phase Retreat teleports far enough to be safe from interrupts.
they can mist form once every 50-60s (thats a complete guess I dont play ele) and we can shroud stomp every 10s. I love to shroud stomp. I think becase out cooldown is significantly less than the ele’s even though it can be countered by another necro,, our stomp is better.
You know that ShourdRez (being the one i use from time to time in pve and Stomp) should technically count as exploits since you are using igl to get the effect… It was like saying its ok, you can fight bow rangers with a necro since necrotic grasp was bugged and went for 1400 range instead of 1200 and with greater marks you got them hitting covered too (valid for now, but there is a chance it will get fixed).
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
if shroud stomping gets ‘fixed’ ill cry like a little girl.
I remember when people were just figuring out how to shroud-stomp and were getting reported for it. To my knowledge there were no bans handed out as a result, but there was also never an official position issued by A-net on the matter.
Technically, I don’t think it (shroudstomp) was intended design, but I believe that shroudstomping is being left in the game because it just isn’t as good as what other classes can do anyway, so it isn’t a big deal.
As far as the OP is concerned… Every class has some form of a “safety stomp” whether it be by teleport abuse, stability, stealth, invuln or some combination thereof. Necro’s are arguably the most costly (in terms of trait and/or utility skill investment) and most difficult to execute, but that heavy investment is also rewarded with the shortest cd, so you have to take the good with the bad and do your best with it. This isn’t a glaring imbalance like some of the Down State v Down State stuff or Underwater Combat in its entirety.
Technically all of the safety stomps are still counterable by stealth (in the case of the invulnerables) or boon striping/corrupting (in the case of stability), so even though they are hard to stop, it is not impossible.
if shroud stomping gets ‘fixed’ ill cry like a little girl.
I dong think its a bug tho. so can’t see Anet thinking this needs to be fixed. its hardly game breaking.
I liken it to dodge-jumping. Something that was probably a bug, but they have since accepted. There are a lot of games that end up accepting bugs and keeping them as part of the game (hell, I played a game that was successful only for its bugs).
Wow, just made some research about dodge-jumping because even after 800 hours in the game (and even more on the forum) I’ve never heard about it.
I can’t really say I’m for those kinds of thing. Timing two buttons at the same time, in a game where no macro is allowed, seems fishy to me. And trust me, I come from games where you had plenty more skills to activate at the same time and as everyone macroed you had to too, to even be able to compete. Yet in this game, those small… bugs I guess, does gives you an advantage, (jumping farther in combat is huge) it’s not only for a “beautiful dodge roll in the air” look.
What this does is create a gap between people who knows the “tricks” and people who don’t. If it’s allowed by Anet, give me an action in my keymapping called Dodge Jump that says you can now jump farther, or even better, make Evade a dodge jump by default.
Sorry for the Off-topic but this and DS shroud/revive are not things that should exist as they are now. Make them clear and easy to use if it’s allowed, not lag or button timing related.
I don’t think ANet should remove the possibility to shroudstomp or shroudrez. They should just make it possible without pressing 2 buttons at the same time. People (and guys, seriously, i can both shroudstomp AND dodgejump even tho my shroud is still on F1) can do it anyways, so why not implement it so that everyone can use it?
THAT’s the entire intention of this thread. If elementalists can stomp in mistform, why cant we stomp in deathshroud at least?
Enuerus Derune – Necromancer, Sylvari
[NO] ~ Ponys Will Never Die
Oh yeah I don’t want it to go away, just make it a standard in all Transform skills. The buttons combos should go away. It’s not skill issues when you need to compensate for lag or others factors completely out of human control.
I DS rez a lot more than I DS stomp ( I leave that to better stompers in my team), and sometimes I’m stuck in DS form while I can’t do nothing and my life force is getting eaten. This can’t be seen as competitive. I do it a lot easier on other classes, reliability is the keyword here. Dodge jump is the same, if you can miss it because of unknow factors, it’s better to not exist in the first place or like I suggested make it counts as an action that can be mapped or by default.
All tranforms skills should (or shouldn’t) be able to rez/stomp, not only a selected few or with gimmicky combo.
im glad im not the only one that thinks shroud stomping is ok.
and stealth stomps are a pain but easily countered if ur on a necro. warhorn daze and staff 5 will do the trick as thieves have very limited access to stability.
not to mention you can just dps a thief into either downed state or pressure him enough to just leave. dagger 1 works great
Grandad Fester / Unruly Pigeon – Necromancer by trade
I’d like to say that if an Ele didn’t use mist form during combat, you kind of deserve to have it on your face, same thing is applied for Necro, Engie, Warrior, Guardian. The only exception being the Thief’s stealth stomping as it has no cooldown.
Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Thief – Jade Quarry.
I don’t think ANet should remove the possibility to shroudstomp or shroudrez. They should just make it possible without pressing 2 buttons at the same time. People (and guys, seriously, i can both shroudstomp AND dodgejump even tho my shroud is still on F1) can do it anyways, so why not implement it so that everyone can use it?
THAT’s the entire intention of this thread. If elementalists can stomp in mistform, why cant we stomp in deathshroud at least?
Why in the world would you ever leave your shroud hotkey on F1.
Like I said above it’s not a big deal once you get the timing down, but it would be nice to get a dev response on whether it is intended or not. I think DS stomping is better compared with teleport stomps and dodge jumping (core mechanics) than Mist Form/Elixir S (which are utilities with long cooldowns). IMO there is a certain coolness factor involved with these types of things which would be gone if you could just DS whenever mid-stomp.
I liken it to dodge-jumping. Something that was probably a bug, but they have since accepted. There are a lot of games that end up accepting bugs and keeping them as part of the game (hell, I played a game that was successful only for its bugs).
Wow, just made some research about dodge-jumping because even after 800 hours in the game (and even more on the forum) I’ve never heard about it.
I can’t really say I’m for those kinds of thing. Timing two buttons at the same time, in a game where no macro is allowed, seems fishy to me. And trust me, I come from games where you had plenty more skills to activate at the same time and as everyone macroed you had to too, to even be able to compete. Yet in this game, those small… bugs I guess, does gives you an advantage, (jumping farther in combat is huge) it’s not only for a “beautiful dodge roll in the air” look.
What this does is create a gap between people who knows the “tricks” and people who don’t. If it’s allowed by Anet, give me an action in my keymapping called Dodge Jump that says you can now jump farther, or even better, make Evade a dodge jump by default
Technically dodge-jump doesnt give you more dodge (evasion window is the same), and the jump increase doesnt even happen if you have more than a 5% movementspeed boost, as in most of the time you get no benefit except the fancy animation.
Transformation and ranged stomps and rez allow for abuse of lag and/or no ticked distance check on the stomp and rez mechanics to get a benefit in a action that is supposed to be used when you are safe to finish off a downed player instead of sticking in longer combat to defeat them with damage, but being on the safer side in terms of someone showing up.
Not really against them, just i really dont like bug turned into feature if it has a impact on the gameplay. e.g. making protective spirit in the original gw let damage taken be reduced to under 1 making BiP necros immune to physical damage and immune to everything if combined with a good frontline and cast control
Funny glitches like air flips, kitten mounted rocket bears, stag-onstag-onstag-onstag-onstag-onstag-onstag mounts sadly fixed in wow, being able to turn into a 20 foot high green glowing quaggain cough casting lich and popping spectral skill+tonic that sadly got fixed or a giant pet t-rex the size of half a main city are fun, things like instakill on exiting DS, Transformation skills instantly dropped on cooldown if interrupted during cast, a debuff from a dungeon that kills everything it touches and spreads faster than a STD on a orgy and lag abuse are not good bugs even if it takes skill to time.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
I’ve always pointed out the Dev’s more one-sided approach to finishers especially in SPvP, whilst the safe stomps from most classes remain (Stealth, Elixir S and Mistform) developers chose to nurf Shroud-stomping and no reason was ever given for this as well despite the calls for it.
We just have to learn to deal with it, like Necromancers always do.
I simply don’t want to live with the fact that necromancer obviously is still in beta testing. We have like 1/3 of the HP we should have in downstate and we can’t shroudrez/shroudstomp. ANet, please deliver. Also, give us back our weaponswitch in DS. No reason at all to not allow us to switch weapons in DS. Elementalists can switch atunement in mistform. Is that fair?
Enuerus Derune – Necromancer, Sylvari
[NO] ~ Ponys Will Never Die
Yes, the stomping thing is another area necro falls behind on vs. classes with invulnerability modes. Stealth stomp is generally better than shroud stomp also.
Yes shroud stomp is badly implemented, probably since it is not intended that we can do it at all.
Yes no weapon switching in DS is silly and annoying and it makes it annoying to finish a combo properly especially after you use Dark Path.
