Guild Wars 2

First thing I noticed… reduce scepter cooldown 20% and add 200 condition dmg….. and that goes for every weapon cd reduction skill. Seriously? Could the beloved kittenwit child sign be any larger?

Minor 5 point trait that gives you vigor on crit with 5 sec cooldown. We get grandmaster trait that does 4 second of burn with double of that cooldown. Yeaaaaah. The sign should definitely be larger.

Mesmer has always been like this. Phantasm builds are the most face roll do nothing build in the game that is also the strongest 1v1 build possible on any class. Their cool downs are also extremely short for how hard some of their abilities can hit. This game doesn’t really have very good balance.

Yep I just realized why I always felt mesmers spam heals like there is no tomorrow. Highest heal cd 20 seconds… shortest 10 seconds. Really?

Still find it amusing that our corrupt boon is apparently too OP… but mesmer nullfield is not.

To quote a smart mesmer: We aint op, just better designed (letting them dance of the finde border between).

Andele.1306:

To quote a smart mesmer: We aint op, just better designed (letting them dance of the finde border between).

I tend to agree with this assessment

Haha that is a good quote.

Here is how ranged class should be… higher your distance better your dmg with great sword…. for us until recently it was the opposite. /facepalm
Man… this game isn’t bad… it only feels like a kittenty asian mmo if you play necro. It’s a shame my interest doesn’t extend past necros. I could never like melee, I get bored of swinging large sticks fast and bizarre butterfly vomit will get on my nerves fast.

25 second cooldown for a stunbreak+stability x2. Holy mack and cheese.

lol, that’s abit strange, i was just reading the Mesmer forum last night and they were all complaining that the CDs were way too long xD

See – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Cooldowns/

Ill take a necros scepter over mesmers any day of the week with no traits. Phantams mesmer was nerfed this patch and rightly so, kitten was OP. Dont know how it is atm but it still might be the best 1v1 build.

Puandro.3245:

Ill take a necros scepter over mesmers any day of the week with no traits. Phantams mesmer was nerfed this patch and rightly so, kitten was OP. Dont know how it is atm but it still might be the best 1v1 build.

It is still the best 1v1 build.

If I had that 25 second stunbreak+stubility x2 I feel like I could solo fractals while beating a thief to death with a severed warrior foot, while doing it all with my kitten .

Well, you have to look at the whole picture. Mesmer scepter has indeed a good trait… because the weapon is totally weak (merely acceptable in PvP, totally useless in PvE and WvW).
As for heals, using the mantra of healing as a baseline is misleading. The mantra by itself heal for a ridiculously low amount, and need to be charged for almost 3s before reuse. Not exactly screaming “overpowered”.
Null field, compared to corrupt boon ? Longer CD, no underwater use, not instant (1 boon a second, for 5s, for a maximum of 5 boons), not unblockable, no conversion of said boons into conditions, add a casting time (can’t be used while CC’d and can be interrupted with some luck). Is one or the other OP, and which is the strongest, I don’t know (they both have their good point), but for sure they aren’t that similar.
The mantra of stability isn’t much to speak about outside of PvE. Yes, it is a quickly reloading stunbreak, but the stability is way too short to be of any use, and again you have 3s of loading that prevent you from using it ever again should the battle take too much time. Now you get a dead utility slot. Just look at how much mesmer slot it (zero, that is), to see how OP it is

@Kravick : it is a recurring problem of the mesmer that it’s too strong in 1 Vs 1 duel (which no game mode feature, and is said by ANet to not be a concern for balance) but grow quickly weak with the size of the engagement, and the difference between game mode is huge, bringing balance decision in a mode that break another (for example, portal being trashed in PvE with no good reason other than “WvW complained”, or shattered strength getting usefull in PvE made it totally OP in sPvP until the next nerf). Good thing they begin to split PvE/PvP, maybe things will go better in the future, for mesmers’ opponent as much as for mesmers themselves.

HiSaZuL.2843:

First thing I noticed… reduce scepter cooldown 20% and add 200 condition dmg….. and that goes for every weapon cd reduction skill. Seriously? Could the beloved kittenwit child sign be any larger?

Minor 5 point trait that gives you vigor on crit with 5 sec cooldown. We get grandmaster trait that does 4 second of burn with double of that cooldown. Yeaaaaah. The sign should definitely be larger.

Pfff what a set of misleading claims.

Great… point me to necro stability. Then compare how many slots and traits with what cooldowns you would need to get the same use out of it. Also none of weapons except staff is useful outside its given spec and situation. Necro scepter w/o stats and traits to support is 100% useless. Same for mantra heal sure there is cast time etc but compare to the least popular necro heal. Blood fiend only works for general pve where it provides best healing because it doesn’t die in 1 shot it has longer cd… it heals for less base unless someone lets it sit there and heal which wont happend in dungeons/pvp/wvw… In mesmer sense it may be rather crappy but in comparison with what other classes have its pretty kitten good. Its all a matter of perspective. Also don’t leave out context. Cb for instance on some maps fails 9 out of 10 times. Will null field waste your cooldown and just sit there looking pretty? No. And mesmers can enjoy much more sane trait distribution which is where necros lack severely. Their illusion which are ment to me distractions that die when you look at them wrong way keep getting buffed… their hp now makes them at times more durable then some necro minions… And they come equipped with a lot better ai.

@ryn One person gave a fair argument you just kitten ed into the air and made urself look like a tool. Congratulations.

While I agree my post was not constructive, the question is: what do you want? You made a mesmer, play a few hours/days and made a total unfair set of claims.

People claiming how OP are necros now (without taking account all necro flaws) make me fill sick and probably you feel same way. So, are you surprised if a mesmer gets mad with your post?

And I just said that you wrote a misleading claims. Posst like yours made Anet nerf classes wrongly. So I’m just pointing out that you should think before QQ any class and more if it’s no your class.

I said all I want in this post, so have a nice day.

Elidath.5679:

Well, you have to look at the whole picture. Mesmer scepter has indeed a good trait… because the weapon is totally weak (merely acceptable in PvP, totally useless in PvE and WvW).
As for heals, using the mantra of healing as a baseline is misleading. The mantra by itself heal for a ridiculously low amount, and need to be charged for almost 3s before reuse. Not exactly screaming “overpowered”.
Null field, compared to corrupt boon ? Longer CD, no underwater use, not instant (1 boon a second, for 5s, for a maximum of 5 boons), not unblockable, no conversion of said boons into conditions, add a casting time (can’t be used while CC’d and can be interrupted with some luck). Is one or the other OP, and which is the strongest, I don’t know (they both have their good point), but for sure they aren’t that similar.
The mantra of stability isn’t much to speak about outside of PvE. Yes, it is a quickly reloading stunbreak, but the stability is way too short to be of any use, and again you have 3s of loading that prevent you from using it ever again should the battle take too much time. Now you get a dead utility slot. Just look at how much mesmer slot it (zero, that is), to see how OP it is

@Kravick : it is a recurring problem of the mesmer that it’s too strong in 1 Vs 1 duel (which no game mode feature, and is said by ANet to not be a concern for balance) but grow quickly weak with the size of the engagement, and the difference between game mode is huge, bringing balance decision in a mode that break another (for example, portal being trashed in PvE with no good reason other than “WvW complained”, or shattered strength getting usefull in PvE made it totally OP in sPvP until the next nerf). Good thing they begin to split PvE/PvP, maybe things will go better in the future, for mesmers’ opponent as much as for mesmers themselves.

Heal mantra is there for the heal trait (just as damage mantra), so essencially a total 8k heal, 10k if you got triple use and works perfectly with condi removal on heal and the now kinda weaker Sword/x + Scepter/Sword immortality build because you only take small hits (http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQRAsa7cl4zionSTjGZ9IiJF9GFeSB05clegb3msB-TwAA2CqIMSZkzIjRSjsGNKYVw+j5HA – any of its trait variations for your playstyle).
Corrupt boon too cannot hit while cced because it actually has a projectile trejectory (so unless you just got stunned no hit from CB).
3s of stabilty might be useless in pve, but to stop a warrior knockdown, chain ranger daze or necro fear its enough, its a good mantra, but kitten y since there is the cooldown on the actual use between stacks.
Final note on the general mesmer thing, they dont slot mantras because they are held into other roles that they do even better, not that mantras are unviable (hell you can be a better healer than a ele with mantra spam since you also daze the enemy and provide quite strong secondary damage with phantasam bleeds/confusion.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Great… point me to necro stability. Then compare how many slots and traits with what cooldowns you would need to get the same use out of it.

If you compare “the use” and not the number, easy: any necro combination works because mesmers don’t use this skill. It has litterally no use. It looks cool on paper, but give it a try and come back telling me it’s OP. Hint: you won’t, because it is a bad skill. You have to realise that you daze yourself to avoid a shorter CC. Controllably, ok, but about any stunbreak is better than that, and all other strun break provide a freebie (protection, movement, retaliation…).

HiSaZuL.2843:

Also none of weapons except staff is useful outside its given spec and situation. Necro scepter w/o stats and traits to support is 100% useless.

Well, ok, but that doesn’t make mesmer’s scepter any better you know. For your information, scepter doesn’t have any reliable way to inflict conditions, so +200 condi damage doesn’t do much for it. At least necro scepter can be improved for real, not band-aid-on-a-wooden-leg improved.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Same for mantra heal sure there is cast time etc but compare to the least popular necro heal. Blood fiend only works for general pve where it provides best healing because it doesn’t die in 1 shot it has longer cd… it heals for less base unless someone lets it sit there and heal which wont happend in dungeons/pvp/wvw… In mesmer sense it may be rather crappy but in comparison with what other classes have its pretty kitten good. Its all a matter of perspective.

Yeah, because your worst heal is bad, our worst heal is good. Noted.
Wait, no, it doesn’t work like that. Our worst heal is bad and your worst heal is bad. Mantra of Recovery is usable twice every 14s (10s CD, 1s between the two casts, 3s charging). Elem get more or less the same effect, with condition cleanse (8 conditions) added, and still get some effects when interrupted midway. Aaaaand it get way more heal with healing power (factor of 1.2 against the 0.4 of the mantra – BTW, Blood Fiend gain is 1.0). So, why mentionning this mantra which is clearly inferior to some other healings ?

HiSaZuL.2843:

Also don’t leave out context. Cb for instance on some maps fails 9 out of 10 times. Will null field waste your cooldown and just sit there looking pretty? No.

Those 2 skills have their own advantage and downsides. CB can fail on cast (but, hey, don’t cast it when blind). NF can’t, but you can walk out of it and lose one boon only (or even 0 if you are quick). Mesmer has only one immobilize, which bug so often it isn’t funny. Both are easy to make fail if you know how. Don’t consider only the good point of mesmer skills, and bad point of necro ones.
And to add this “perspective” you so much want : you have one skill on a long CD, that can be walked of, that double as anti-condition for a class with difficulties with condition. On the other side you have a skill that generate condition. The former put the user in a difficult position : do I use the skill offensively (leaving me open) or defensively ? The second support the strength of the class directly, in a controllable manner. NF is in no way bad, but saying CB is trash compared to it isn’t seeing the whole picture.

HiSaZuL.2843:

And mesmers can enjoy much more sane trait distribution which is where necros lack severely.

Sane distribution ? Weeeeell, you might want to try mesmer more. And, again, having sane trait wouldn’t mean anything for mesmer. On the other hand, necro not having sane traits mean the necro need a rework/buff. I don’t see how mesmer get into the picture of necro having design problems.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Their illusion which are ment to me distractions that die when you look at them wrong way keep getting buffed… their hp now makes them at times more durable then some necro minions… And they come equipped with a lot better ai.

Keep getting buffed ? Do you read the patchnotes ?
“Decreased the clone base hit points by 25% in PvP and WvW.”
Phantasm got slightly buffed in PvP, but the signet giving +200% phantasm health got reduced to +50%, totalling in a big nerf. Clones still have about 1k HP and do die if you look at them angrily. Phantasm stay a bit more, but they are meant to. And speaking about AI… no, they don’t have anything fancy. “If ennemy in range, attack ; if not get to him”. And even that bug out (iWarden think he is a ranged phantasm, illusions stands into places doing nothing…). If your pet AI are worst than that, again, ask for a buff, because mesmer have no relation to the problem at all.

TL;DR : the only thing coming out of that, is that necro needs some buffs. You didn’t prove in any way a problem with mesmer.

Andele.1306:

Heal mantra is there for the heal trait (just as damage mantra), so essencially a total 8k heal, 10k if you got triple use and works perfectly with condi removal on heal and the now kinda weaker Sword/x + Scepter/Sword immortality build because you only take small hits (http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQRAsa7cl4zionSTjGZ9IiJF9GFeSB05clegb3msB-TwAA2CqIMSZkzIjRSjsGNKYVw+j5HA – any of its trait variations for your playstyle).

Yes, but that is a whole build dedicated to it, not a skill. The mantra in itself is still weak, only some traits give it some use, and even then you wont be doing much more than that.

Andele.1306:

Corrupt boon too cannot hit while cced because it actually has a projectile trejectory (so unless you just got stunned no hit from CB).

Still doesn’t make anything mesmer-y any more powerfull. It’s a feat (deserved or not) of the skill.

Andele.1306:

3s of stabilty might be useless in pve, but to stop a warrior knockdown, chain ranger daze or necro fear its enough, its a good mantra, but kitten y since there is the cooldown on the actual use between stacks.

As all mantra, it is useless outside of dedicated build. To avoid warrior KD, you have dodge and stunbreak (all classes do). Necro fear is the same. I didn’t experience the ranger chain daze yet, but I don’t see 2s of stability once in the fight getting me the victory, when it means I had to leave out actually consistantly usefull skills to take it. It can find some use, but the problem here isn’t this mantra : it’s that necro have hard time with stability. Not a mesmer problem, once again.

Andele.1306:

Final note on the general mesmer thing, they dont slot mantras because they are held into other roles that they do even better, not that mantras are unviable (hell you can be a better healer than a ele with mantra spam since you also daze the enemy and provide quite strong secondary damage with phantasam bleeds/confusion.

While they aren’t unviable, they indeed are bad. Their traits are acceptably good, but they are in no sane distribution (see: sane skill trees), lock you into a single role, stop you from getting any of those actually good and versatile skills of the class, and force you to daze yourself constantly to get meh effects. Fun build, but in no way strong in competition (at best acceptable).

Still, this thread is only about someone feeling bad because the numbers on another class aren’t the same as his. You know what ? 100b numbers are higher than any mesmer numbers. And it means exactly nothing about balance and how easy a class has it. You’ll find a lot of mesmer that would kill for necro condition cleanse (or necro condition build). But to them I would say “roll necro”, not “nerf necro”.

Elidath.5679:

Yes, but that is a whole build dedicated to it, not a skill. The mantra in itself is still weak, only some traits give it some use, and even then you wont be doing much more than that.

Still, this thread is only about someone feeling bad because the numbers on another class aren’t the same as his. You know what ? 100b numbers are higher than any mesmer numbers. And it means exactly nothing about balance and how easy a class has it. You’ll find a lot of mesmer that would kill for necro condition cleanse (or necro condition build). But to them I would say “roll necro”, not “nerf necro”.

Here is a bit of general info:
Mesmer pov: Shatter and phant = good, Glamour/Mani = ok, Mantra = bad
Pov from anyone else: Shatter and Phant = bloody overpowered no matter how much you swap the damage, its chain tanking, retaliation and Guardian elite on half the cooldown – unfixable because its in core design, Glamour/Manin = good, Mantra = Ok

Its a thing of perception, if you start with something overpowered anything else seems weak, even if its on a normal/balanced line with most other builds.

Listen to a thief talk about their abilities too…

Andele.1306:

Here is a bit of general info:
Mesmer pov: Shatter and phant = good, Glamour/Mani = ok, Mantra = bad
Pov from anyone else: Shatter and Phant = bloody overpowered no matter how much you swap the damage, its chain tanking, retaliation and Guardian elite on half the cooldown – unfixable because its in core design, Glamour/Manin = good, Mantra = Ok

Its a thing of perception, if you start with something overpowered anything else seems weak, even if its on a normal/balanced line with most other builds.

Yeah, the good old “everything that ever existed mesmer-wise is op”, because critical thinking is so yesterday.
You should read mesmer forum, really. In fact, mesmer PoV:
- Phant : totally OP for 1v1 duelling (it is even the name of the main build, you know), useless for anything else ;
- Shatter : really good ;
- Glamour/mani : tools, not builds, but both are really good ;
- Mantra : ok to terribad (depends on trait and mantra considered).
Wow, almost like everyone else. Who would have thought people could play multiple class, be honnest, and have constructed opinions ?

The problem here is that some random necro, after 10s of seeing a mesmer, declare our bad point good because necro has it bad here too. That don’t work. And playing mesmer isn’t the problem, as I play every class in the game. My condi necro totally tear a new one to any mesmer any time, and I could complain all days on how necro have it good with condition, while mesmer are useless at it. But, you know, it still wouldn’t makes the mesmer bad as a whole. So all I ask is, if you want to criticize a class, do it seriously. Not by picking a trait and two skills and declare “OP” at the top of your lungs. See the whole meta, all the classes, the design of each, and see how it fit. I know, it takes some works, but anything less bring bad design.

Here, the trait on scepter seems good, but it is forgetting the weapon in itself do nothing. It balances out (well, not even since scepter still suck). The mantras ? 2s of stability is far from what a guardian can put AoE, and with way less drawbacks. Elem can even put that much, AoE on a shorter CD, without filling any skill slot. Heal ? Well, Ether Feast is functionnaly close, but way better. Not saying any of those is OP, UP or anything. Just that comparing numbers get us nowhere, and what as been pointed out here is done better by other classes. In fact, one can ask : what is the point of this thread ? Asking for mesmer nerf ? Asking for necro buff ? Just a pointless rant ? What is was the intent in writing this ?

“Final note on the general mesmer thing, they dont slot mantras because they are held into other roles that they do even better, not that mantras are unviable (hell you can be a better healer than a ele with mantra spam since you also daze the enemy and provide quite strong secondary damage with phantasam bleeds/confusion.”

Did you seriously call the secondary damage of phantasm bleeds/confusion strong with that kind of role? Confusion has been nerfed so that even running a condition build, it still hardly makes people wince when they have it now. Factor in to place that you have a whole 75 cond damage and 0% condition duration with this setup, bleeds and confusion do nothing at all.

Glamours outside of zerg fighting are basically useless. There are some engagements where feedback can be strong (facing multiple ranged foes like rangers) but null field generally more a utility cleanse for a mesmer as the boon stripping can easily be avoided and aside from running into a group of boon guardians doesn’t even hamper our opponents much unless there are several mesmers around carrying it.

As others have stated, stop calling nerf this and nerf that but rather ask for some buffs where there are holes in the profession. BTW, balancing doesn’t mean that every class/build should be able to be every other class in a particular engagement (whether 1v1 or group setting).

Nordic Natedog.4360:

“Final note on the general mesmer thing, they dont slot mantras because they are held into other roles that they do even better, not that mantras are unviable (hell you can be a better healer than a ele with mantra spam since you also daze the enemy and provide quite strong secondary damage with phantasam bleeds/confusion.”

Did you seriously call the secondary damage of phantasm bleeds/confusion strong with that kind of role? Confusion has been nerfed so that even running a condition build, it still hardly makes people wince when they have it now. Factor in to place that you have a whole 75 cond damage and 0% condition duration with this setup, bleeds and confusion do nothing at all.

Glamours outside of zerg fighting are basically useless. There are some engagements where feedback can be strong (facing multiple ranged foes like rangers) but null field generally more a utility cleanse for a mesmer as the boon stripping can easily be avoided and aside from running into a group of boon guardians doesn’t even hamper our opponents much unless there are several mesmers around carrying it.

As others have stated, stop calling nerf this and nerf that but rather ask for some buffs where there are holes in the profession. BTW, balancing doesn’t mean that every class/build should be able to be every other class in a particular engagement (whether 1v1 or group setting).

You know that the build is based on sustain and gradually pressuring your opponent, for that/the amount of tanking you can do, the amount of condition damage it deals it is strong (just as on the dd ele was and just as it still is on bunker guardians).
Complementation skills like glamours and manipulations do make builds, they are based on weapons and class mechanic, you know, just like necro spectrals.
Signets are as on every profession a mixed bag.

Well, I wouldn’t call Feedback “useless” outside of zerg. It is still an etheral field (for more chaos armor) and in PvE it often comes in handy too, so it is more often than not a very good skill.
It is as easy too call an undeserved nerf as it is to oversee the power of a skill, so let’s not go to the extreme

HiSaZuL.2843:

First thing I noticed… reduce scepter cooldown 20% and add 200 condition dmg….. and that goes for every weapon cd reduction skill. Seriously? Could the beloved kittenwit child sign be any larger?

Minor 5 point trait that gives you vigor on crit with 5 sec cooldown. We get grandmaster trait that does 4 second of burn with double of that cooldown. Yeaaaaah. The sign should definitely be larger.

Some traits are bad compared to other professions while others are better. I don’t like this balance idea but apparently that’s the way Anet wants to do it.

Some professions don’t have a certain kind of trait at all (necro in this case), some have bad versions of it (e.g. ele, only affects 1/4 of all skills instead of 1/2 and has no additional bonuses) and others have the good ones (e.g. mesmer).

It’s a weird balance decision by Anet and we can only hope they balance it properly in the future.

Andele.1306:

You know that the build is based on sustain and gradually pressuring your opponent, for that/the amount of tanking you can do, the amount of condition damage it deals it is strong (just as on the dd ele was and just as it still is on bunker guardians).
Complementation skills like glamours and manipulations do make builds, they are based on weapons and class mechanic, you know, just like necro spectrals.
Signets are as on every profession a mixed bag.

On a mantra mesmer, pressure is quite low in fact. The mesmer itself spend his time to reload mantras, which leave only untraited phantasm. Usable, but not great in any way.
Basically, a phantasm build with support instead of damage. No Phantasmal haste, no iCelerity, no Empowered Illusions, no Persisting Images, no Phantasmal Strength…
Without any support trait, phantasm don’t deal that much damage, die quickly (~2k health in PvP), and… that’s all. Traited, that’s another topic altogether, but it isn’t compatible with mantra traits. The DD ele was better simply because it doesn’t depend on easily killable AI to put his pressure, and it’s healing couldn’t be interrupted like a mantra mesmer can be (3s channel, and restorative mantra bonus apply at the end of it).

@Blackhat : mesmers don’t have “the good ones”. They have some good, some bad. Most mesmer weapon traits come with a +50 in a stat. Nothing special. Warrior get +90 toughness on shield recharge, ranger recharge all offhands and gets increase range with only one trait, guardians get +20% burn duration with torch recharge… again, it isn’t mesmers that are too good, it is necro that have it rough.

The Mesmer’s scepter is pretty bad even with that trait, to be honest. And their heals all kinda suck. Ether Feast heals for less than Consume Conditions under most circumstances and doesn’t do anything except heal, Mirror has a cool projectile reflect but doesn’t heal much at all, and Mantra of Recovery has good heal-over-time but only if you’re willing to spend like 20% of your time channeling just for it.

As for Null Field, it only actually removes one condition and boon per pulse, making Well of Corruption or Well of Power the better comparisons (though each has different pros/cons).

The Mesmer is certainly one of the better-designed professions, but it isn’t perfect and the Necro still has some major strengths over it. After the devs get finished fixing Necro sustain, I think it will be more clear just how strong the Necro really is.

The only Mantra worth using on a Mesmer is the Mantra of resolve, 2 condition removals impromptu with a very low cooldown, reflect/illusion build and I still can give any necro a battle worth it’s salt. Talking of having Necros OP LOL, not even close.

PS. Some nerfs did hit the Mesmers badly no doubt (with some silly decisions thrown in such as the temporal curtain delay) but it’s still a pretty strong class.

Oh hey, I can do the same:

Mesmer heal: 5.5k, 500-600 per illusion (3 max)
Necro heal: 5.5+-, 500 per condition and full condition cleanse. That means 8k+ heals and ALL conditions cleansed.

Mesmer interrupt trait (multiple traits): random boon or condition, interrupts don’t last long enough.
Necromancer interrupt: up to 4 seconds long or even more, deals 1.2k+ damage per second.
Mesmer scepter auto attack: 500-1200 (power builds)
Necromancer scepter adds bleeds like no other.
Mesmer has a base health of 15k, that’s it.
Necromancer has 18k+ and a double health bar.
Mesmer short cooldowns because most weapon skills are support and auto attacks suck.
Necro longer cooldowns for better weapon skills.

If you see this list you’d think a mesmer has no chance against a necro and this is true often. You can fear while he’s doing blurred frenzy, his safeguard (which was needed to deal some damage), and then just condi bomb him.

I’m no way implying mesmer is weak but please, stop trying to make necro look weak as you’re probably the strongest class at the moment.

Yendorion.2381:

The only Mantra worth using on a Mesmer is the Mantra of resolve, 2 condition removals impromptu with a very low cooldown, reflect/illusion build and I still can give any necro a battle worth it’s salt. Talking of having Necros OP LOL, not even close.

PS. Some nerfs did hit the Mesmers badly no doubt (with some silly decisions thrown in such as the temporal curtain delay) but it’s still a pretty strong class.

The nerf to Illusionists Celerity was actually the most brutal, IMO, but totally warranted. That trait was warping virtually every Mesmer build.

You’re also spot-on about Mantras. Mantra of Resolve pretty much never leaves my bar because Mesmers have such trouble dealing with conditions naturally. I like to slot Mantra of Pain + Restorative Mantras when fighting the Claw of Jormag, though, since the continuous AoE healing goes a long way towards keeping the newbies in the zerg from dying.

vinceftw.5086:

Mesmer interrupt trait (multiple traits): random boon or condition, interrupts don’t last long enough.
Necromancer interrupt: up to 4 seconds long or even more, deals 1.2k+ damage per second.
Mesmer scepter auto attack: 500-1200 (power builds)
Necromancer scepter adds bleeds like no other.
Mesmer has a base health of 15k, that’s it.
Necromancer has 18k+ and a double health bar.
Mesmer short cooldowns because most weapon skills are support and auto attacks suck.
Necro longer cooldowns for better weapon skills.

If you see this list you’d think a mesmer has no chance against a necro and this is true often. You can fear while he’s doing blurred frenzy, his safeguard (which was needed to deal some damage), and then just condi bomb him.

I’m no way implying mesmer is weak but please, stop trying to make necro look weak as you’re probably the strongest class at the moment.

Forgotten notes:
Mesmers have at least 1 on weapon sets, neros have to take wh and staff for it. Both got one in proffession mechanic only the mesmers can be stun/daze for total 8 seconds just via mechanic, necro can get that much only if 1. enemy is within 600 2. drops 10 more points for either damage or duration (your pick whats more important) 3). Uses up a utility slot 4. offers up his runes for condi duration.

Mesmer scepter is the only ranged weapon you can pre charge giving a instant shatter on enemy (usually daze) since the clone spawns on the enemy

Necros “double hp bar” degenerates and we have no invul, you got a default one with 3 free other hp bars if you play right/are good enough to trick.

For weapons i give you this example:
Dagger 2 – 1.9k over 3 seconds – about the same amount healed, single target
Sword 2 – 1.7k over 1 seconds – 2 seconds of immunity to all attacks, melee cleave

Stakitten – Aoe fear with 300 damage, potential additional 800~1600 damage, can be dodged into to do nothing
Stakitten – Aoe eitheral field with daze chill weakness cripple (so guaranteed at least 1 soft cc) with free defensive boons for 5 allies in aoe, free chaos armor when combined with staff 2 cannot be stopped by enemy

For short the only 2 “weak” skills on weapons (pre viable builds) are mind stab (aftercast) and Pmage (Clone retal and shatter fodder) for Mesmers, Necros get Feast of Corruption (worth nothing in condi build) and Rending Claws
Also in general pre all weapons mesmers got 4 seconds lower cooldowns and almost identical base power damage pre skills.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Yep I just realized why I always felt mesmers spam heals like there is no tomorrow. Highest heal cd 20 seconds… shortest 10 seconds. Really?

Still find it amusing that our corrupt boon is apparently too OP… but mesmer nullfield is not.

Mesmer heals that remove conditons…..
………
……… OH yeah none.
Mesmer heal that is on a 10s CD has a 2.75s charge and even when activated doesn’t heal for much.
Nullfield only nullifys IE doesn’t really do damage to you and doesn’t make everything you gave the Mesmer boons.
Mesmer illusions are their only source of damage outside of shatters. The scepter cooldown if you look doesn’t decrease the CD of skill 2 if the attack is blocked so the trait is only good for condition damage builds. But wait mesmers can get more condition damage if they just go 20 deep into the next line and take illusionary elasticity. Mesmers don’t really spam heals. Also if specced right a necro can siphon health. Oh and lets not forget the Mark of Blood that is 1,4k regen on a 8s cooldown I believe. Oh and how many of your number 2 skills are on a CD of higher than 10s untraited? Mesmer has one OP build and that is the phantasm build.

Necros needed love this patch but not in the way they got it. they needed survivability not more damage. If you want to gripe about Mesmer condition removal be my guest but any competent player will laugh their hats off.

Andele.1306:

Forgotten notes (…)

Missing the point entirely. Of course he “forgot” things. He was saying that when you “forget” things like OP did, you can give a really skewed view of balance.

jportell.2197:

Mesmer heals that remove conditons…..
………
……… OH yeah none.

Necros needed love this patch but not in the way they got it. they needed survivability not more damage. If you want to gripe about Mesmer condition removal be my guest but any competent player will laugh their hats off.

You know if a mesmer wants, he can get: condi off shatter, condi off each heal cast (yes all 3 of the mantras casts count), condi off torch use (making the useless magus a weaker engie toolkit heal turret and the prestiege even stronger) and a signet/distortion combo to be immune for 1 second each time they cast a signet to remova a condi. Honestly anyone who thinks the 10 points for condi off on heal (with reflect) aint worth it on a mesmer in pve probably also thinks greater marks isnt needed in pvp (it isnt in pve and wvwvw, but it is mantatory in pvp for staff users).

Its a terribly underused weapon for mesmer, that is why it got buffed. It is essentially a duelist 1v1 style weapon, for conditions…. that is horrible at applying conditions. Sceptor 3 is good, sceptor 2 may or may not go off one the person you want it to, and both of those have long cooldowns.

I would agree with your anger if their sceptor one applied conditions, or if they had a shatter that could apply a significant bleed stacks, or if they had any reliable way to stack of a good pile of conditions while holding a sceptor.

Since they don’t, it is hard to see this as OP.

Andele.1306:

jportell.2197:

Mesmer heals that remove conditons…..
………
……… OH yeah none.

Necros needed love this patch but not in the way they got it. they needed survivability not more damage. If you want to gripe about Mesmer condition removal be my guest but any competent player will laugh their hats off.

You know if a mesmer wants, he can get: condi off shatter, condi off each heal cast (yes all 3 of the mantras casts count), condi off torch use (making the useless magus a weaker engie toolkit heal turret and the prestiege even stronger) and a signet/distortion combo to be immune for 1 second each time they cast a signet to remova a condi. Honestly anyone who thinks the 10 points for condi off on heal (with reflect) aint worth it on a mesmer in pve probably also thinks greater marks isnt needed in pvp (it isnt in pve and wvwvw, but it is mantatory in pvp for staff users).

Wait so you are saying that a Mesmer can take harmonious mantras with cleansing conflagration which is 30 into domination… (40 pts left) Blurred inscriptions (20 into dueling) (20pts left) Cleansing Inscriptions (20 into Chaos) (0 pts left).

But wait we aren’t done! You are also saying that the Mesmer is also going 30 into inspiration! Because you are saying they will take shattered conditions along with menders purity and why not lets let em get restorative mantras cuz why the hell not rigtht?! So a Mesmer has to use 100 points (impossible btw) to get this amazing condition removal. See the thing is to match any necromancer condi removal mesmers have to sacrifice a lot of either
A. Basic Survivability
B. Most Damage
C. Team Utility

Because all mesmers can run a 30/20/20/30/0 build with no deceptive evasion and we are so special that ANet decided to give us an extra 30 trait points to spend….

Andele.1306:

You know if a mesmer wants, he can get: condi off shatter, condi off each heal cast (yes all 3 of the mantras casts count), condi off torch use (making the useless magus a weaker engie toolkit heal turret and the prestiege even stronger) and a signet/distortion combo to be immune for 1 second each time they cast a signet to remova a condi. Honestly anyone who thinks the 10 points for condi off on heal (with reflect) aint worth it on a mesmer in pve probably also thinks greater marks isnt needed in pvp (it isnt in pve and wvwvw, but it is mantatory in pvp for staff users).

- Shattered condition : major grandmaster inspiration trait. 30 pts to remove one condition, good job. And it profit shatter mesmers, who already takes 30pts in illusion and 20pts in duelling, because their trait line are so “well” designed they can’t work without those investment.
- Mender’s purity : remove one condi, tied to heal. Will you sacrifice your heal to get this cripple off ? The trait is handy, but isn’t a primary condition cleanse in any way. Btw Mantra of Recovery is only 2 cast, unless you take a grandmaster trait. So you have to sacrifice your healing and invest 30 pts into a subpar trait line to get 3 condies off. Exactly what is called “bad condi removal”.
- Cleansing Conflagration : boost for torch (condi weapon), deep into direct damage tree. Not gonna happen. Isn’t exactly what necro have against dhuumfire ? And again, remove only one condition, on a long CD. And remember torch 5 is the very definition of a useless skill.
Aside from that

So yes, the mesmer has options to remove condition. The problem is those options are bad : deep in trees, always remove one condi only, and tied to other bad skills (mantra and torch) or geared toward builds that can’t afford them. Would you like your condi removal on the Blood Fiend ? Didn’t think so :P

I can have condi removal on blood fiend….
Also The initial mantra cast (the channel to create the charges) removes one (might be patched out but i know it used to since it counts as “casting” a heal (just as on engies hkit swapping counts as “using a heal”) and last but not least, if you scroll up the page youll see me stating, no its not the optimal setup and mesmers are actually held into their optimal trait setup because its just dancing on the edge between stronger than usual and bloody op, but that still doesnt mean they dont have the means to remove condis if they wanna (unlike us for example that can at best get 1 more condi clear pre 6 seconds from traits).

Andele.1306:

I can have condi removal on blood fiend….
Also The initial mantra cast (the channel to create the charges) removes one (might be patched out but i know it used to since it counts as “casting” a heal (just as on engies hkit swapping counts as “using a heal”) and last but not least, if you scroll up the page youll see me stating, no its not the optimal setup and mesmers are actually held into their optimal trait setup because its just dancing on the edge between stronger than usual and bloody op, but that still doesnt mean they dont have the means to remove condis if they wanna (unlike us for example that can at best get 1 more condi clear pre 6 seconds from traits).

Wow you are so far off base. No you do not remove a condition when you prep the mantra. That does not count as using your heal skill. I know as well as several other mesmers and the only thing that is “bloody OP” is necromancers in their current implementation. Sorry sir but Mesmer condition removal is laughable when compared to just about any other class in this game including a warrior. And also one more condi clear every six secons? More like one condition every 2 seconds. 5 minions and each one siphons a condition from you every 10s not to mention off hand dagger that transfers conditions and the staff 4 that transfers conditions. Are you really going to try to tell me that Mesmer condition removal is just so much more amazing then a necromancers?

(it isnt in pve and wvwvw, but it is mantatory in pvp for staff users).

Actually, I would say that greater marks is mandatory in WvW. Part of a necromancers job is area denial, especially on tower/keep walls. Without Greater Marks, you’re not doing that at all. No, the smaller mark sizes don’t effectively keep people away from the walls edge. They’ll just walk around them and your enemy will able to attack people below.

As far as not needing it in PVE, well thats debatable, but it effectively makes staff viable as an AoE weapon. Without the big marks, you’ll hit 2, possibly 3 targets if you do a lot of juggling to get NPCs clumped together. Forget about it if you’ve got NPCs with ranged weapons. They’ll never clump up. With Greater Marks, you spend way less time NPC juggling and more time actually landing your marks on multiple targets. Thus less time spent moving from target to target trying to hit at least 2 NPCs at once.

Seen here :

Guy browsing through necro skills, sees corrupt boon. “WTF, I can’t spam LoLYourselves mindlessly?” Makes thread saying it should only convert 5 condis. Dev reads thread and says, “Seems about right, let’s do this.” and Boom, CB nerf.

So I guess some necro at least would understand how silly this thread is.

Now, if you feel CB too weak now and like numbers out of context, here’s food for thought.
Corrupt Boon should be compared to Arcane Thievery, not Null Field. They function the same way, unlike NF. They are both an unblockable (and unreliable) projectile that remove boons. But AT remove 3 boons (down from unlimited in beta) on a 45 seconds CD where CB remove 5 (down from unlimited in last patch) on a 40s CD. With more range. Necro really do have it easy.
That, or numbers aren’t telling the whole story, you know.

@Andele : no, you can have condi removal “on Minions”, not “on BF”. Try and imagine your only way to have a non-45 seconds CD cleanse was to trait for BF to remove them on sacrificing it. Would suck. It is the same for mesmer.
And yes you said it was possible-albeit-non-optimal, what we say is it is way worse than “not optimal”. It means sacrificing your whole build only to cleanse. Except people have no reason anymore to put conditions on you since you are utterly useless. So, mission complete, I guess ? “I might be dead, but at least I cleansed those condition, yay for me”.
Last, but not least, it still don’t legitimate this thread which fail to makes any point. “Mesmers have it good because numbers on one trait” makes no sense.

jportell.2197:

Andele.1306:

I can have condi removal on blood fiend….
Also The initial mantra cast (the channel to create the charges) removes one (might be patched out but i know it used to since it counts as “casting” a heal (just as on engies hkit swapping counts as “using a heal”) and last but not least, if you scroll up the page youll see me stating, no its not the optimal setup and mesmers are actually held into their optimal trait setup because its just dancing on the edge between stronger than usual and bloody op, but that still doesnt mean they dont have the means to remove condis if they wanna (unlike us for example that can at best get 1 more condi clear pre 6 seconds from traits).

Wow you are so far off base. No you do not remove a condition when you prep the mantra. That does not count as using your heal skill. I know as well as several other mesmers and the only thing that is “bloody OP” is necromancers in their current implementation. Sorry sir but Mesmer condition removal is laughable when compared to just about any other class in this game including a warrior. And also one more condi clear every six secons? More like one condition every 2 seconds. 5 minions and each one siphons a condition from you every 10s not to mention off hand dagger that transfers conditions and the staff 4 that transfers conditions. Are you really going to try to tell me that Mesmer condition removal is just so much more amazing then a necromancers?

Mhhhm, totally correct, you are so brilliant thatyou know that every necromancer is running minions and they are just as viable kittenter builds and that both dagger 4 and staff 4 cannot be dodge, a giant swarm of flies and black swirly animations that summon a big red circle with a snake ontop while the necro gets a scythe are totally instant skills.

/snark off
No Mesmers, Necros, Warriors and Engies got the lower end of reliable condi removal, but that doesnt mean they are that weak to conditions that “oh kitten mesmers cannot fight necro”, you get the correct runes (melandru or lyssa depending on your elite) or Arcane thievery (full on maip build with IoL blink and it), Null field (again glamour roam build for portal decap) and last but not least Defensive traits with offensive amulet instead of going glass cannon.

Elidath.5679:

And yes you said it was possible-albeit-non-optimal, what we say is it is way worse than “not optimal”. It means sacrificing your whole build only to cleanse. Except people have no reason anymore to put conditions on you since you are utterly useless. So, mission complete, I guess ? “I might be dead, but at least I cleansed those condition, yay for me”.
Last, but not least, it still don’t legitimate this thread which fail to makes any point. “Mesmers have it good because numbers on one trait” makes no sense.

If by " sacrificing your whole build", you mean 100 power and 10% cond dur, boon strip and some vuln for 1 condition pre 15 seconds (or 2 pre 10 if you like mantras), retal on phantasams (really annoying) and 1000 more hp, then yes.

HiSaZuL.2843:

First thing I noticed… reduce scepter cooldown 20% and add 200 condition dmg….. and that goes for every weapon cd reduction skill. Seriously? Could the beloved kittenwit child sign be any larger?

Minor 5 point trait that gives you vigor on crit with 5 sec cooldown. We get grandmaster trait that does 4 second of burn with double of that cooldown. Yeaaaaah. The sign should definitely be larger.

First thing i see is that you are really, really ignorant about the class. I hope you are a better necro but i wouldnt be surprised if you arent.
Before creating a silly, useless thread you may want to effectively try the class and the skills/traits you quoted in order to KNOW what you are talking about.

@Andale: You seem a better player to discuss with, the point is that if jportell claims something that is incorrect about necros, you do the same with mesmers.
If we need bandaind solutions for conditions, swiftness and so on we would have to put runes on weapons, jewels, carry two armor sets in the inventory and wear an heavy armor over the light one.
We have strenghts, we have weaknesses, nothing more.

Andele.1306:

Elidath.5679:

And yes you said it was possible-albeit-non-optimal, what we say is it is way worse than “not optimal”. It means sacrificing your whole build only to cleanse. Except people have no reason anymore to put conditions on you since you are utterly useless. So, mission complete, I guess ? “I might be dead, but at least I cleansed those condition, yay for me”.
Last, but not least, it still don’t legitimate this thread which fail to makes any point. “Mesmers have it good because numbers on one trait” makes no sense.

If by " sacrificing your whole build", you mean 100 power and 10% cond dur, boon strip and some vuln for 1 condition pre 15 seconds (or 2 pre 10 if you like mantras), retal on phantasams (really annoying) and 1000 more hp, then yes.

Stats aren’t what mesmer needs. Traits are. If for condi cleanse you have to throw away clone generation, shatter damage, phantasm damage and skills CD, yes your are sacrificing your build. Even though you get 100 more power.
And FYI, retal on phantasm isn’t a thing anymore, since last patch.
Aaaaand I will repeat myself : not a single thing here pointed how there was a relation between necro weaknesses and mesmer. Necro has weaknesses. Mesmer has good point (not the one cited though). But what ? State your point, please. What do you want with mesmer in this thread ?

Andele.1306:

retal on phantasams (really annoying)

Clearly shows that you have no idea about mesmer’s current state. Ill write it again: first try the class with the current traits/skills and then post. Wiki or 3 months old tries arent enough.

No all you lose is boon strip in terms of traits since the vuln was weak either way.
And Retal on phantasams is still a thing, people (like you 2 guys) who are too stupid to understand that you might actually be supposed to shatter them after they use their skill (duelist being the only exception since he has a low attack recharge).
5 seconds of retal is still a lot, drop a phantasam in a fight, do at least 2.4k damage just by chip aoe damage retaliation.

“But what? State your point, please. What do you want with mesmer in this thread?”
Necros need the same amount of good design choices as mesmer traitlines (without the op setup of profession mechanic numbers and effects).

Problem with mesmers is they are less useful the more people in a fight (excepting portal monkey), where necros are more useful. So pick your flavor. I do far more with my necro in wvw.

Andele.1306:

jportell.2197:

Andele.1306:

I can have condi removal on blood fiend….
Also The initial mantra cast (the channel to create the charges) removes one (might be patched out but i know it used to since it counts as “casting” a heal (just as on engies hkit swapping counts as “using a heal”) and last but not least, if you scroll up the page youll see me stating, no its not the optimal setup and mesmers are actually held into their optimal trait setup because its just dancing on the edge between stronger than usual and bloody op, but that still doesnt mean they dont have the means to remove condis if they wanna (unlike us for example that can at best get 1 more condi clear pre 6 seconds from traits).

Wow you are so far off base. No you do not remove a condition when you prep the mantra. That does not count as using your heal skill. I know as well as several other mesmers and the only thing that is “bloody OP” is necromancers in their current implementation. Sorry sir but Mesmer condition removal is laughable when compared to just about any other class in this game including a warrior. And also one more condi clear every six secons? More like one condition every 2 seconds. 5 minions and each one siphons a condition from you every 10s not to mention off hand dagger that transfers conditions and the staff 4 that transfers conditions. Are you really going to try to tell me that Mesmer condition removal is just so much more amazing then a necromancers?

Mhhhm, totally correct, you are so brilliant thatyou know that every necromancer is running minions and they are just as viable kittenter builds and that both dagger 4 and staff 4 cannot be dodge, a giant swarm of flies and black swirly animations that summon a big red circle with a snake ontop while the necro gets a scythe are totally instant skills.
.

So you are saying that Mesmer has better condi removal. Well here are weapon skills that necros have that remove/transfer conditions:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm (Limited Number)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark

Here are the necro healing skills that remove conditions:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions

Necro Utility skills that remove conditions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague_Signet
Stun Break Transfers all conditions to Foe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Power
Also A stun Break plus grants stability

This is base without the necro using any trait points that focus condition removal…

Now Mesmer weapon skills that remove/transfer conditions:
…. ….. ……
Mesmer Healing Skills that remove conditions:
…… …… ……
Mesmer Utility Skills that remove conditions:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Thievery
Only three… Unreliable and misses a lot plus the cooldown is 45 seconds. How long is the deathly swarm cooldown? Oh yeah almost half of that.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Disenchanter
Not as bad as many mesmers believe actually our best bet for removing conditions mostly. However like most phantasms it can be blinded/invulned plus it has a very very obvious cast animation and a long cast time. Not going to be taken in any shatter build which most teams refuse to allow a non shatter Mesmer.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Null_Field
Second most popular option not instant cast and unlike the description says it doesn’t immediately remove all boons and all conditions (Have tested this on a guard using Save Yourselves)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Cleanse
Instant removal of a total of 4 conditions decent cooldown. Whopping 3s prep time

Now while we have more skills that remove conditions the amount of conditions removed in each skill has a set number. Necros removal/transfer skills are generally all… This is before we even start to talk about trait points. Please do not even attempt to make it seem that a necromancer has garbage condi removal compared to mesmers. And while a necro may not be a minionmancer in tourneys it is more viable than a anti condition Mesmer build by a long stretch.

@jportell

there is no point arguing against them. Many Necros do not understand the deficiency with other classes condition removal. Many of them dont seem to play other classes to see why necros are viewed OP.

Andele.1306:

No all you lose is boon strip in terms of traits since the vuln was weak either way.
And Retal on phantasams is still a thing, people (like you 2 guys) who are too stupid to understand that you might actually be supposed to shatter them after they use their skill (duelist being the only exception since he has a low attack recharge).
5 seconds of retal is still a lot, drop a phantasam in a fight, do at least 2.4k damage just by chip aoe damage retaliation.

Remember when i said that you could be a better person to discuss with than the OP? Well, you are even worst.
If by “boon strip and a weak vuln” you mean dazzling and shattered concentration the situation is just bad. Dazzling together with diversion is the base to land huge bursts because its an easy access to 25 vulnerability. Also, Shattered concentration (i talk about this because you quoted it but there are also nice traits) is arguably the best way to deal with boons-based foes when you play shatter (sword chain and clones arent so reliable).
Therefore, you call us stupid because you know, we obviously dont play a mesmer while YOU DO.
Duelist is not “the only exception” in terms of recharge, it is if in your already short career of mesmer you only played pistol OH.
First you say that we should shatter phantasms after their attack, then you claim that retal is nice. Should i shatter after their attack or when they almost have 1 hp left?
That 5 seconds are short enough to disappear before they can even think to die or receive damage in some situations while in others they die quickly. You must live in a beatiful world if you think that mesmer’s illusions always work like “let the phantasm attack, yes now that stupid guy is killing him and deals with retaliatation, well now that the phantasm have 10 hp i can shatter”.

Andele.1306:

“But what? State your point, please. What do you want with mesmer in this thread?”
Necros need the same amount of good design choices as mesmer traitlines (without the op setup of profession mechanic numbers and effects).

Well you are failing. Do yourself a pleasure and stop posting (or avoid insults at least).

loseridoit.2756:

@jportell

there is no point arguing against them. Many Necros do not understand the deficiency with other classes condition removal. Many of them dont seem to play other classes to see why necros are viewed OP.

“Deficiency” is a strong word. Conditions arent supposed to be removed too easily, else whats the point. However necros are exceptionally strong at it, conditions are our toys more than anything.

Mind you every alt I play has several means to remove conditions, but thats how I roll. And yea theres always melandrus + lemongrass if you are really stuck and dont mind losing a bunch of dps in your build.