Guild Wars 2

So now it’s just 5s protection and life force gathering, but not really useful. Look at warrior Berserker stance – before patch it was use just for fill adrenaline bar, but now it’s 8-10 sec 100% defense from conditions.

Necromancer is condition god, he heals by conditions, he transfer condition, he draw conditions, BUT have no protection from conditions. I think Spectral Armor should be upgrade, i don’t say it’s MUST be condition protection like war stance, but i never use it now.

Btw, necro only stability is on Elite skills (and 1s on well) with big cooldown, maybe Armor should give it too.

What do you think? Does SA need change and in which way?

Stability or condition immunity both sound good. I’d really like it to do more than it does atm.

Everything about this thread is wrong.

Spectral Armor is one of the most taken utility skills in PvP. It’s insane survivability. Popping it and Death Shroud at the same time is the easiest way to survive through Berserker Stance or a thief’s opener.

Necromancers have plenty of ways to deal with conditions: Deathly Swarm, Putrid Mark, Consume Conditions, Well of Power and Plague Signet.

This change would be a huge nerf and completely unnecessary.

+1 to Lopez. Spectral Armor is amazing in PvP because of its ability to pretty much invalidate damage during its duration. We have the most ways to deal with conditions of any class, why would we need more?

Stability would make it too strong. They’d need to nerf it in other ways to be able to buff that aspect of it, and that isn’t worth it.

Sarmor (and Swalk and most nerfs caused by the addition of dhumbfire) should go to its old self… maybe from 3 to 4% life force on hit but it was ok on a 60 sec cd with the 3% pre hit without ICD

Andele.1306:

Sarmor (and Swalk and most nerfs caused by the addition of dhumbfire) should go to its old self… maybe from 3 to 4% life force on hit but it was ok on a 60 sec cd with the 3% pre hit without ICD

Nerf? Why do you keep calling it a nerf?
It was rarely used before the patch, now it can eat an Elementalist’s burst and gets used all the time.
http://bit.ly/14xNCMU

With that said Necro does need a few skills to remove 1-3 condis to better fight Immob and Cripple.
And something to fight vs huge gank bursts, like a short invul.

Granted the old Spectral Armor did have a few niche tricks, like eating a Thief’s Unload to get a ton of Life Force, but for the most part I didn’t feel it was worth a slot before it got changed.

Necro has many ways to stop conditions on himself… Why does he need another? If you want to deal with getting rid of a cripple, drop putrid mak….stay where you are, wait for the attacker to trigger the mark, hit spectral walk and run outta there…..

Putrid Mark removes conditions regardless of where you are. Anyway, I’m pretty sure Necromancers have the most condition removal of any class in the game.

Zerroth.2401:

Necro has many ways to stop conditions on himself… Why does he need another? If you want to deal with getting rid of a cripple, drop putrid mak….stay where you are, wait for the attacker to trigger the mark, hit spectral walk and run outta there…..

Necro has a few skills with very powerful removal and a long cooldown.
They are really great vs massive condi stacks, but pretty bad vs a cripple here and an immob there.

As an example my Elementalist removes two conditions on attuning to Water, one when dodge rolling and one when using Water attunement 5 skills on off-hand dagger.
He also removes 8 with his healing skill.

If my Necro gets hit by a long cripple or immob I can use Putrid Mark (25s cooldown) or Consume Conditions (25s cooldown) but putting either on cooldown because of 1 cripple is incredibly inefficient.
They really should be saved for big stacks of conditions, much how an Elementalist wants to save their Ether Renewal for it.

If you pick off-hand Dagger then you also get Deathly Swarm, which has a 18s cooldown.
Not bad, but just like Putrid Mark it can be dodged and should be used to throw large stacks of condis on enemies rather than just 1 cripple or immobilize if at all possible.

Meanwhile on my Ele I can just dodge roll if I get crippled.
Same on many Thief builds, actually.

So whereas I think that many Professions need a better counter to huge condi stacks Necro himself needs a better counter to those singular CC ones.
The only proper counter I can think of is Shrouded Removal, which removes 1 condition upon entering Death Shroud.
It’s just not all that great compared to what many other Professions get.

Not to mention that since Putrid Mark is on Staff and Deathly Swarm is on Off-hand Dagger that means that you pretty much need at least one of them to have enough removal.
A Power build Running Axe/Focus and Dagger/Warhorn would only have Consume Conditions unless for some bizarre reason they slot Plague Signet, which is rather counterintuitive for that purpose.

You’re listing Grandmaster traits that give comparable condition cleansing to a single off-hand ability.

Plague Signet is a full transfer. Consume Conditions is a full wipe. Well of Power is 6 conditions flipped. Dagger 4 is 3, Putrid mark should be full. Then a single adept trait gives us the same thing that your 30 point grandmaster does, 1 condition removed every 10 seconds.

If we want to remove craploads of conditions, I can remove 5 conditions every 10 seconds by slotting 5 minions, and then going 30 into Blood magic, and I can still carry 2 full cleanses and a 3 transfer.

Anyway, you’re trying to compare a single build that specs a crapload towards condition removal, to stuff that we pretty much always take anyway. It isn’t a remotely good comparison, you’re forced into a single build to deal with conditions that quite literally any of our builds could handle.

The only buff I could possibly ask for would be to increase the duration of the protection we get from it. Other than that, it is an amazing defensive cooldown, for any necro build.

i love spectral armour as it is (the only change i -maybe- would like to see is stab on it… but then comparing to armour of earth… it would have to lose something to get it… which i probably wouldnt like) we dont need more condition control

Linguistically Inept.6583:

i love spectral armour as it is (the only change i -maybe- would like to see is stab on it… but then comparing to armour of earth… it would have to lose something to get it… which i probably wouldnt like) we dont need more condition control

Stability would be nice too, necro have stability only in deep traits and on elites

Stability on SA would kill it’s use right now (as it’d be nerfed in other aspects). They either need more accessible stab traits or new utilities with stab.

spectral armor lost most of it’s usefulness with spectral skill internal cooldowns like spectral walk also which is now only marginally useful for anything.

only right solution would be to make them work somewhat as they were. or in similar manner with shorter skill cooldowns or whatsoever. now they are not fine as they are.

boo.

LastDay.3524:

Andele.1306:

Sarmor (and Swalk and most nerfs caused by the addition of dhumbfire) should go to its old self… maybe from 3 to 4% life force on hit but it was ok on a 60 sec cd with the 3% pre hit without ICD

Nerf? Why do you keep calling it a nerf?
It was rarely used before the patch, now it can eat an Elementalist’s burst and gets used all the time.
http://bit.ly/14xNCMU

With that said Necro does need a few skills to remove 1-3 condis to better fight Immob and Cripple.
And something to fight vs huge gank bursts, like a short invul.

Granted the old Spectral Armor did have a few niche tricks, like eating a Thief’s Unload to get a ton of Life Force, but for the most part I didn’t feel it was worth a slot before it got changed.

Because you could eat it with a 100% DS before too?
Also the burst is 9 hits over 2 seconds (up to 16 with the arcane setup or 27 with DD greatsword setup – these over 3 seconds), that generates 9% more life force than the current does, as a matter of fact all non thief bursts (and many thief bursts) are in as many hits that they make the old Sarmor better, also that one actually helped in a 1vx scenario unlike this one that overkills LF generations in 1v1 (being essentially a worse endure pain in DS).
Not to mention the fact that caused the swalk nerf turning it pretty much worthless when compared to Wurm and Signet (and now the multiple ms runes) in pve and in most pvp situations.

Bhawb.7408:

You’re listing Grandmaster traits that give comparable condition cleansing to a single off-hand ability.

Plague Signet is a full transfer. Consume Conditions is a full wipe. Well of Power is 6 conditions flipped. Dagger 4 is 3, Putrid mark should be full. Then a single adept trait gives us the same thing that your 30 point grandmaster does, 1 condition removed every 10 seconds.

Evasive Arcana also gives Burning, Bleed, Cripple and Blind plus damage.
It’s not just removal, it gives an effect for each attunement.
It’s a great, build defining trait (much like Terror), the removal part of it is cherry on top.
Imagine if Terror also gave Shrouded Removal.

Meanwhile Shrouded Removal just removes 1 condition and does nothing else.
Admittedly it’s only an Adept trait, but still.

I feel that Plague Signet is counter-intuitive as it draws a ton of condis on you and you are often forced to use it much before you want to burn your stunbreaker.
Using it without off-hand Dagger (which I don’t like running anyway, too little Life Force) seems even more suicidal.

I tend to use Spectral Armor as my stunbreaker in PvP, running multiple stunbreakers just seems… odd to me.
Perhaps it works better than I think?
Same with Well of Power, I’ve only really ran that on Well builds.
Have I underestimated it? If so, I’m very happy to hear that!

Bhawb.7408:

If we want to remove craploads of conditions, I can remove 5 conditions every 10 seconds by slotting 5 minions, and then going 30 into Blood magic, and I can still carry 2 full cleanses and a 3 transfer.

It’s not that effective of a build, I would think?
But you have a point.

Bhawb.7408:

Anyway, you’re trying to compare a single build that specs a crapload towards condition removal, to stuff that we pretty much always take anyway. It isn’t a remotely good comparison, you’re forced into a single build to deal with conditions that quite literally any of our builds could handle.

Yeah it’s true that Elementalists are pretty much forced into a few builds.

Out of all the things you listed, though, Consume Conditions and Putrid Mark tend to be the only removal skills in my builds.

Still, you’ve raised good points.
I’m one of those people who’s not shy to voice his opinion, but I certainly don’t think that I’m infallible.
Perhaps I’m wrong?

I just feel really silly every time a random Risen or a Hyena applies an ages long cripple on me and I need to waste Putrid Mark or Consume Conditions.
It’s even worse in PvP.
My Ele uses Evasive Arcana for Blast finishing and damage anyway so I can also use it to remove said Cripple.
It’s also worth noting that it’s AoE, so it removes 1 condi from 5 (4?) allies, too.

Andele.1306:

Because you could eat it with a 100% DS before too?

Spectral effects got removed when you entered Death Shroud, so that was impossible.
You’d only get the Protection if you tried it.
Also 90s cooldown.

Or am I wrong?
Was there a period of time when it had the old effect and Death Shroud didn’t remove it?
If so I apologize.
I just remember the current one and the old one that almost nobody used, I had a period in-between where I didn’t play much so I may have missed it.

Or if you meant “you could eat an Ele burst with Protection and 100% Life Force” then maybe.
Can’t say I did testing on that.

With new Spectral Armor you only need like 20% Life Force though.
Maybe 30%

LastDay.3524:

Andele.1306:

Because you could eat it with a 100% DS before too?

Spectral effects got removed when you entered Death Shroud, so that was impossible.
You’d only get the Protection if you tried it.
Also 90s cooldown.

Or am I wrong?
Was there a period of time when it had the old effect and Death Shroud didn’t remove it?
If so I apologize.
I just remember the current one and the old one that almost nobody used, I had a period in-between where I didn’t play much so I may have missed it.

Or if you meant “you could eat an Ele burst with Protection and 100% Life Force” then maybe.
Can’t say I did testing on that.

With new Spectral Armor you only need like 20% Life Force though.
Maybe 30%

Before the big DF nerfs patches (so June-25th to the next patch) sarmor was 60 seconds and the 15 point trait was able to be procced in DS (and did give LF, just as it could/can in plague and lich form), you could eat 2 100b from zerker warriors if you started at 100% lf and had 30~ (well 27) into SR without taking a point of damage to hp because of its proc.
Thus the utility was good (protection and easy fill of life force in 1vx situations and when noone peeled for you in pvp), but not cheap in 1v1s/get out of jail free card if you let someone jump you.

Andele.1306:

LastDay.3524:

Andele.1306:

Because you could eat it with a 100% DS before too?

Spectral effects got removed when you entered Death Shroud, so that was impossible.
You’d only get the Protection if you tried it.
Also 90s cooldown.

Or am I wrong?
Was there a period of time when it had the old effect and Death Shroud didn’t remove it?
If so I apologize.
I just remember the current one and the old one that almost nobody used, I had a period in-between where I didn’t play much so I may have missed it.

Or if you meant “you could eat an Ele burst with Protection and 100% Life Force” then maybe.
Can’t say I did testing on that.

With new Spectral Armor you only need like 20% Life Force though.
Maybe 30%

Before the big DF nerfs patches (so June-25th to the next patch) sarmor was 60 seconds and the 15 point trait was able to be procced in DS (and did give LF, just as it could/can in plague and lich form), you could eat 2 100b from zerker warriors if you started at 100% lf and had 30~ (well 27) into SR without taking a point of damage to hp because of its proc.
Thus the utility was good (protection and easy fill of life force in 1vx situations and when noone peeled for you in pvp), but not cheap in 1v1s/get out of jail free card if you let someone jump you.

Oh! You mean the one from the trait!
Interesting, I’ll be honest: I actually didn’t know that!
I don’t think I ran enough Soul Reaping in PvP during that time period.
I ran 30/20/20/0/0 I think.

Oddly enough, though, I checked the notes for June 25th and it says:
“Spectral Armor: Reduced the recharge to 60 seconds.”
Dunno, then.
I guess the minor trait got a lower cooldown before the Utility did?

Either way I thought that you were talking about the Utility skill, which is something I never really ran before the patches and now run very often.
Imagine my confusion, haha!

The Minor trait I have rarely used in condi builds; perhaps I should have used it more.

The Last Gasp trait always had a 60 second cooldown. It’s why nobody ran Spectral Armor before that patch.

@Lastday (didn’t want to quote the whole thing).

Elementalists have strong cleansing with that build, of course, and it is AoE; the main reason it was viable was because of the team-wide cleansing it could do (most of the cleanses are AoE), and thus by having that ele on your team you can bring a lot less condi removal to teamfights. Between them and shout-Guardians you had massive team-wide condi removal.

Otherwise the problem is thakittens a single build you’re listing. No one has the vast amount of easily accessible condition removal that Necromancers do. Can Shout Guardians or 30water/30arcana eles remove comparable (if not maybe more) conditions? Sure, but they take an entire build near entirely built around removing conditions to do that; Necromancers just slot very commonly used things that they’d probably take anyway.

Bhawb.7408:

@Lastday (didn’t want to quote the whole thing).

Elementalists have strong cleansing with that build, of course, and it is AoE; the main reason it was viable was because of the team-wide cleansing it could do (most of the cleanses are AoE), and thus by having that ele on your team you can bring a lot less condi removal to teamfights. Between them and shout-Guardians you had massive team-wide condi removal.

Otherwise the problem is thakittens a single build you’re listing. No one has the vast amount of easily accessible condition removal that Necromancers do. Can Shout Guardians or 30water/30arcana eles remove comparable (if not maybe more) conditions? Sure, but they take an entire build near entirely built around removing conditions to do that; Necromancers just slot very commonly used things that they’d probably take anyway.

I don’t think you quite understand what I’m trying to say.
Lemme try again and explain in detail this time!

Necros have Powerful skills for mass Condition removal/transfer.
I’m not denying that one bit.

They might even be overpowered! I dunno.
Putrid Mark got an animation change; I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if cast time increase followed.

What I’m constantly repeating is that Necros lack good low-cost fast removal for just 1 or 2 condis.

Consume Conditions removes all Conditions.
That’s incredible vs a huge condi stack!
I remember someone calling it overpowered, even, although I disagreed at the time.

…but using it when at 90% health and only having a Cripple is a horrible waste.
It’s like using Ether Renewal on 1 cripple. Just… no!
So what do you use instead?
Putrid Mark? For 1 cripple? Nah. Waste.
Deathly Swarm? Same problem, plus it gets dodged easily.

They are all very powerful skills, but with rather high costs and some sort of requirements and secondary functions you want to save for certain situations.
If you use Consume Conditions to remove one Cripple or Immob you don’t have it off-cooldown when you need it badly.
Putrid Mark and Deathly Swarm have the same issue.

You want your Putrid Mark when there’s a huge condi stack on you, you can’t use it willy-nilly.
Deathly Swarm has the same problem.
All have very high “costs” to use.

I’m NOT saying “Necro needs a 1s cast time 60s cooldown skill that removes a all conditions!”
They already have tons of that sort of stuff. Maybe too much.
I’m saying “Necro could use anti-cripple/anti-immob or low cooldown skills/multiuse traits that remove 1-2 Conditions.”

As an example if Shrouded Removal and Weakening Shroud were rolled into one it’d make for a really interesting trait that would be useful in many situations.

Or if Spectral Walk also instantly removed Immobilize, Chill and Cripple (but no other condis) it’d make for a nice escape tool!

Or if Locust Swarm removed Crippled from the user…

You get what I’m trying to say now?
Necro is so easy to pin down and having these sorts of skills would would make Necro a bit stronger vs such things without mass Stability or instant cast Shadowsteps.

I feel that many other Professions suffer from the opposite problem!
They have the tools for fighting a few CC condis just fine, but are absolutely horrible against the kind of condi spam Necromancer and Engineer can put out.
Mesmer especially is pretty horrible at dealing with mass condis.

I realize we don’t have small condition cleanses… its because our “small” ones are full cleanses. Deathly Swarm is a small cleanse that only has an 18s recharge, Shrouded Removal is low CD, as is the minion one, and Putrid Mark is fairly small. I know it feels wrong using an entire cleanse on just one condition, but that’s a luxury you get when you are the condition class. Those low CD options are available, people just don’t generally find they need them.

And yes there is a bit of an opportunity cost, which is fine. Sure if I blow Deathly Swarm on one cripple it is far less useful than if I waited till I had 25 stacks of bleeds, but that is just because so many of our skills have that high scaling that others don’t. A skill that only removes conditions can only scale up to… removing really long cripples, which is pretty small. A skill that can copy any condition to an enemy while removing it from you though, that has high scaling, because using it on a long duration burning/high stack bleed suddenly turns the entire fight around, they went from having an 8k damage dot (at full duration) to having it on them. That is something unique of our “removal” skills, they don’t just remove, they actively punish the enemy for even having applied them. But gain, Deathly Swarm is still just as useful for removing 3 conditions as any other low CD 3 condi removal, we just feel bad because we keep that ideal in our mind.

Essentially we don’t need any of those small removals other classes have, because our small ones are equivalent to their big ones. Its all relative.

I suppose I’ll just agree to disagree with you, then.

The way I see it those transfer skills are different from just removal because you need to hit your target but the pay-off is greater.
They aren’t reliable.
They are more risky but with a payoff.

Trying to transfer Immobilize to a Thief with a zillion dodges and Stealth or trying to even get it off when being constantly slammed with knockdowns and knockbacks from a Warrior can be a pain sometimes.
Of course if you manage to pull it off: Great!
But honestly the skill is much better in very different sort of situations.
Great mix of offense and defense.

Plus transfers seem more geared towards Condition Damage builds who can take the full advantage from all Conditions, a Power build would often benefit more from just having a reliable way to quickly get rid of that stuff rather than take a risk to transfer them.