Guild Wars 2

or ad it passively…. one of the best part of power reaper is jumping in and out of Reaper shroud to counter the burst that flies in your face + gaining mobility…..

10 sec just feels freaking unplayable on a power build x.x

The condi removal is actually such a good buff, I’d take it over the old SoS.

Especially if you run plague signet and you get bombed with condi. You remove all the non damaging ones and only send the damaging ones back.

Ramoth.9064:

The condi removal is actually such a good buff, I’d take it over the old SoS.

Especially if you run plague signet and you get bombed with condi. You remove all the non damaging ones and only send the damaging ones back.

The condi remove is great solves alot of problems for the reaper the only bad this is we dont hace the 3 secs resuction thatn on power reaper was a must but its ok can be manageble

Brokensunday.4098:

Ramoth.9064:

The condi removal is actually such a good buff, I’d take it over the old SoS.

Especially if you run plague signet and you get bombed with condi. You remove all the non damaging ones and only send the damaging ones back.

The condi remove is great solves alot of problems for the reaper the only bad this is we dont hace the 3 secs resuction thatn on power reaper was a must but its ok can be manageble

The 3 second cooldown is useful in a very specific scenario. This condi removal has more uses and indirectly buffs traits like shrouded removal. I’d say the trade is about even.

As someone who used the three second recharge reduction quite frequently, I’m saddened to see it go. I fancy myself as somewhat of a build experimenter, originating since the Guild Wars 1 days, and loved to create unique-yet-effective things just to keep my interests going. Admittedly, it has been a bit of a struggle to keep that trend going strong in Guild Wars 2, for reasons I’m sure you all know, but it seems that update after update, the opportunity for variety is getting smaller and smaller.

One note on the new Speed of Shadows skill is that its functionality change has, from what I’m reading, reduced the value of the trait Relentless Pursuit significantly. Movement mitigation conditions reduced versus just removing them completely, I’d go with the latter option, and then just let my blinds, fear, and freezes do the rest for me in terms of preventing said conditions coming back on me while I’m fighting. Perhaps Shroud cooldown reduction could go there instead, which in turn would have it compete with Augury of Death and Chilling Nova. Removing it from the game entirely really hurt the value of Shroud, the necromancer’s primary mechanic (and as demonstrated from certain angrier threads involving Vital Persistence, made the entire Soul Reaping trait line lackluster).

Another thing was that it worked quite well with Foot in the Grave, a grandmaster trait. I felt it was a necessary synergy there given the lack of Stability the necromancer has, and when you have hardly any Stability, you’ll want as many stun breaks as you can get! Using those two traits with each other was just another way to survive, especially in things like WvW, and on the PvE scene, the absurd amount of knockbacks Fractal 100 CM presents.

Life From Death, a skill that’s received a buff lately, benefits from flashing Shroud. To be quite frank, this was one of the traits I’ve been using for a long time and had thoroughly enjoyed. And although it received a 25% healing buff, since you can no longer use it every seven seconds, but ten, it’s actually a 30% nerf, resulting in a 5% overall nerf which will, unfortunately and very likely, still see it seldom used with builds. Unless you spec to a healing build, and quite literally minmax it, it seems this doesn’t help the survivability of the necromancer terribly well, and with nerfs to condition damage, all in all, the necromancer is beginning to feel like a sitting duck in most scenarios—PvP and WvW, anyway. PvE, what they’re best at support-wise doesn’t work on bosses (Understandable, but I could see it being fit into the system in the way that they’d work on a boss whose breakbar is orange and recharging as opposed to blue.)

Anyway, that’s my two cents. I only hope that the balance team would see this post and perhaps reconsider adding in the Shroud cooldown reduction back into the game. There’s always hope!

KidRoleplay.3615:

As someone who used the three second recharge reduction quite frequently, I’m saddened to see it go. I fancy myself as somewhat of a build experimenter, originating since the Guild Wars 1 days, and loved to create unique-yet-effective things just to keep my interests going. Admittedly, it has been a bit of a struggle to keep that trend going strong in Guild Wars 2, for reasons I’m sure you all know, but it seems that update after update, the opportunity for variety is getting smaller and smaller.

One note on the new Speed of Shadows skill is that its functionality change has, from what I’m reading, reduced the value of the trait Relentless Pursuit significantly. Movement mitigation conditions reduced versus just removing them completely, I’d go with the latter option, and then just let my blinds, fear, and freezes do the rest for me in terms of preventing said conditions coming back on me while I’m fighting. Perhaps Shroud cooldown reduction could go there instead, which in turn would have it compete with Augury of Death and Chilling Nova. Removing it from the game entirely really hurt the value of Shroud, the necromancer’s primary mechanic (and as demonstrated from certain angrier threads involving Vital Persistence, made the entire Soul Reaping trait line lackluster).

Another thing was that it worked quite well with Foot in the Grave, a grandmaster trait. I felt it was a necessary synergy there given the lack of Stability the necromancer has, and when you have hardly any Stability, you’ll want as many stun breaks as you can get! Using those two traits with each other was just another way to survive, especially in things like WvW, and on the PvE scene, the absurd amount of knockbacks Fractal 100 CM presents.

Life From Death, a skill that’s received a buff lately, benefits from flashing Shroud. To be quite frank, this was one of the traits I’ve been using for a long time and had thoroughly enjoyed. And although it received a 25% healing buff, since you can no longer use it every seven seconds, but ten, it’s actually a 30% nerf, resulting in a 5% overall nerf which will, unfortunately and very likely, still see it seldom used with builds. Unless you spec to a healing build, and quite literally minmax it, it seems this doesn’t help the survivability of the necromancer terribly well, and with nerfs to condition damage, all in all, the necromancer is beginning to feel like a sitting duck in most scenarios—PvP and WvW, anyway. PvE, what they’re best at support-wise doesn’t work on bosses (Understandable, but I could see it being fit into the system in the way that they’d work on a boss whose breakbar is orange and recharging as opposed to blue.)

Anyway, that’s my two cents. I only hope that the balance team would see this post and perhaps reconsider adding in the Shroud cooldown reduction back into the game. There’s always hope!

Life from death is a 12.5% nerf, not 30%, in terms of healing. In terms of reviving its a 40% buff.

After taking some time to do the math, you’re right. It’s even worse than I thought! That explains why I couldn’t keep anyone alive in Fractals this evening. :(

As for the buff to revive percentage, from having used the old state of it frequently and using the new state now, that really doesn’t amount to much. Sure, it helps, but it’s much more viable to keep people from being downed in the first place. Sigh…

KidRoleplay.3615:

After taking some time to do the math, you’re right. It’s even worse than I thought! That explains why I couldn’t keep anyone alive in Fractals this evening.

As for the buff to revive percentage, from having used the old state of it frequently and using the new state now, that really doesn’t amount to much. Sure, it helps, but it’s much more viable to keep people from being downed in the first place. Sigh…

12.5% nerf is not as bad as what you said, which was 30%. Anyhow, its nothing to write home about.

Ramoth.9064:

The 3 second cooldown is useful in a very specific scenario. This condi removal has more uses and indirectly buffs traits like shrouded removal. I’d say the trade is about even.

That scenario isn’t as specific as you would think.

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

Crinn.7864:

Ramoth.9064:

The 3 second cooldown is useful in a very specific scenario. This condi removal has more uses and indirectly buffs traits like shrouded removal. I’d say the trade is about even.

That scenario isn’t as specific as you would think.

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

The thing is, Adept SR has soul marks, unlike Master SR which really only had VP worth taking. I’m sure as hell there are a lot of necros with soul marks, and still are, all with 10second cds.

Ramoth.9064:

Crinn.7864:

Ramoth.9064:

The 3 second cooldown is useful in a very specific scenario. This condi removal has more uses and indirectly buffs traits like shrouded removal. I’d say the trade is about even.

That scenario isn’t as specific as you would think.

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

The thing is, Adept SR has soul marks, unlike Master SR which really only had VP worth taking. I’m sure as hell there are a lot of necros with soul marks, and still are, all with 10second cds.

And they are much easier to kill because of it. Power shouldn’t even be using staff since greatsword (especially with the new Soul Eater trait) is vastly superior in both utility, control, and damage. Condi builds of course use Soul Marks and Staff, but condi builds are trash in solo queue.

Crinn.7864:

Ramoth.9064:

Crinn.7864:

Ramoth.9064:

The 3 second cooldown is useful in a very specific scenario. This condi removal has more uses and indirectly buffs traits like shrouded removal. I’d say the trade is about even.

That scenario isn’t as specific as you would think.

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

The thing is, Adept SR has soul marks, unlike Master SR which really only had VP worth taking. I’m sure as hell there are a lot of necros with soul marks, and still are, all with 10second cds.

And they are much easier to kill because of it. Power shouldn’t even be using staff since greatsword (especially with the new Soul Eater trait) is vastly superior in both utility, control, and damage. Condi builds of course use Soul Marks and Staff, but condi builds are trash in solo queue.

There are so many variables to this discussion I don’t think its worth pursing. Sure, 7s CD is better than 10s CD, no doubt about it.

I used the 7sec recharge heavily on most of my favored WvW roaming Reaper builds for both power and condi…
essentially because…

• a smaller window means opponents will need to time their bursts better,
• a smaller window means I will be able to spread out my non-shroud defenses better across each window to manage the vulnerability,
• a smaller window means more use out of traits that trigger on entering/leaving shroud
• a smaller window means more flexibility over the usage and rotation of shroud when engaging your opponent
• a smaller window means more synergy with shroud 2 which has been my favorite Reaper skill

My favorite experience as a Reaper was to catch up to LB/Staff Rangers in WvW open field each and every time they tried to knock me back.
The synergy of the old SoS with Reaper shroud 2, and FiTG really won it for me.
It was great that Reaper shroud 2 could be magnified via traits to become incredibly deadly on a 6 second cooldown.
7 second stunbreak, gap closer, damage dealer, blind, boon corrupt, chill, bleed all rolled into one when built right…it was glorious.
So much synergy. So much flexibility. So much fun.
It was great while it lasted.

The new SoS isn’t too bad. It’s pretty good actually, helping us to negate one of the deadliest control condition a reaper can face – immobilize. Very helpful against certain foes.
I believe Reapers can still find builds to counter foes and survive without the 7 second window now. After all, many do not utilize SoS before the change and are also doing well.

To me at least…the fluidity and synergy that the old SoS gave to Reapers feels…lost

I’m not thinking so much into new builds for roaming now though…
With Scourge on the horizon and possibly more balance patches across board for entire classes/elites, I think I will just take a break from roaming, hop on my zergling and go run around with my commander.

See you Scourges in Elona!

Let’s remember, there are decisions being made that affect abilities by as little as ¼ of a second.

Necro gets Shroud wait time extended by a third! That’s brutal!

Perma swiftness is sooo sweet I’m not even mad about this change.

In small scale/roaming wvw this is a killer change.

Return us to what we were. Dont even bother changing a thing. 7secs sos, vp as it was, dont touch anything after that, i dnt care if we’re still middling dps or worse. Leave Reaper alone and move onto fiddling with scourge.

dceptaconroy.7928:

Return us to what we were. Dont even bother changing a thing. 7secs sos, vp as it was, dont touch anything after that, i dnt care if we’re still middling dps or worse. Leave Reaper alone and move onto fiddling with scourge.

The changes were because of scourge. Scourge has no life force degen and its own shroud (f5) isn’t linked to the old sos cooldown. They didn’t fiddle with Reaper anyway. Both changes were to core necro traits.

The traits’ve been fine for four years. If a new mechanic isn’t going to be using what’s offered in the trait, considering it’s for necromancer core, that trait should be updated to include additional features instead of removing things from it to dampen build diversity. There are many traits even still across all professions that are very specific. I guess in their arguments, a specialization is a bigger deal than the general, bigger depiction of the profession’s main mechanic?

If the change was for scourge, fearing how the mighty e-spec could have gained “incredible powers” with Desert Shroud’s CD cut they should have just swapped Relentless Pursuit with Speed of Shadows and buffed Relentless Pursuit to remove (on shroud’s activation) and cut duration of movement imparing conditions.

Vitali.5039:

If the change was for scourge, fearing how the mighty e-spec could have gained “incredible powers” with Desert Shroud’s CD cut they should have just swapped Relentless Pursuit with Speed of Shadows and buffed Relentless Pursuit to remove (on shroud’s activation) and cut duration of movement imparing conditions.

I like this suggestion a lot. Relentless Pursuit is now very similar in purpose to the new SoS.
Changing it to shroud CD reduction + MS would be nice…gives Reaper a lot more synergy…

KidRoleplay.3615:

The traits’ve been fine for four years. If a new mechanic isn’t going to be using what’s offered in the trait, considering it’s for necromancer core, that trait should be updated to include additional features instead of removing things from it to dampen build diversity. There are many traits even still across all professions that are very specific. I guess in their arguments, a specialization is a bigger deal than the general, bigger depiction of the profession’s main mechanic?

^THIS!

KidRoleplay.3615:

The traits’ve been fine for four years. If a new mechanic isn’t going to be using what’s offered in the trait, considering it’s for necromancer core, that trait should be updated to include additional features instead of removing things from it to dampen build diversity. There are many traits even still across all professions that are very specific. I guess in their arguments, a specialization is a bigger deal than the general, bigger depiction of the profession’s main mechanic?

This is exactly what needs to happen, stop punishing shroud builds because it was the fastest solution to an upcoming issue with the new elite specialization.

Gideon.6742:

In small scale/roaming wvw this is a killer change.

^^ I’m feeling it constantly. It’s horrible.

Shroud is a shadow of it’s former self.

:( #BoycottPoF(for a few minutes, then remember how good mounts are).

So Anet can we get the cooldown reduction back?

I don’t mind the new version just wish it worked as worded. It says movement impairing conditions but it’s movement impairing condition.

Either that or its bugged.

Vp nerf plus this was too much. Hit the rewind pls

I think what most of us are experiencing, myself included, is that we are going through a period where our rotations for the past 2 years with the 7sec shroud are all thrown out of the window.

Defensive rotation, offensive rotation, movement rotation, all disrupted.
Its only natural to feel extremely weakened and lost I guess…after all it has been an amazing trait for Reaper roamers for the past 2 years…

I’m guessing Reaper roamers are already in the minority in WvW, and even fewer used the old SoS for that 7 sec shroud. Too few to matter anyway. I doubt we will get that 7 sec shroud back.

I’m really hoping anet sees Vitali’s suggestion and replace the Reaper’s Relentless Pursuit trait with the old SoS…If Scourge doesn’t need it, let Reapers have it in the Reaper line…but…sigh…

Can Reaper roam without the 7 sec shroud? Probably yes. Major change in play-style would be required though. A whole new period of adaptation would have to take place.

I tried for a couple of days as a Power Reaper, won maybe 30% of my fights against decent opponents. The Axe 2 burst still takes many by surprise. It is okay…playable…but not as smooth as before with the old SoS =(

I’m not up for it, not up to re-adapt my play-style. Not till I get to give Scourge sufficient play time I guess. And then decide from there if I prefer Reaper or Scourge as my main roamer.

Definitely the case for myself in that an entire build option of mine, thoroughly enjoyable for PvE, has been thrown out of the window, and with it, nearly the entire class for me. Additional damage done as it’s my one and only 100% world and HoT completion character. Additional damage also done as the build I made for it which I found unique and fulfilling I had minmaxed in both gear and those absurdly priced infusions. And I’m not even sure I’ll regret posting this, but as a person who hates to endlessly farm for anything—I know some don’t mind that—I justified putting in real money to acquire said infusions just because I enjoyed the unique role I had so much.

Now, with a switch that came without warning and completely out of left field, to something that appeared to be set in stone and would remain untouched for maybe even another four years, all of that’s thrown away as the build is useless, albeit somewhat tolerable if I can get someone to camp Alacrity on me. So in short, it almost gives me the feeling of being scammed, money gone right down the drain, hence my seriousness about the change.

I also agree with Vitali, and it’s something I hinted at as well. Have Relentless Pursuit be updated to return the reduced cooldown. After all, you can’t run Scourge and Reaper at the same time, so there would be no overlap. Hell, at this point, I’m practically begging.

All that being said, and with the things I’ve read, I see how it’s also messed up so many others and hardly just myself for the reasons just mentioned by EremiteAngel.9765.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

So Anet can we get the cooldown reduction back?

I’m dying so much because of this nerf. It’s really disappointing that they nerfed Reaper because of Scourge. It really feels like a “Buy POF or be kitten” move.

Crinn.7864:

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

I’m using this quote but my answer to it is supposed to address everyone who is bothered by the change to Speed of Shadows:

The primary cause of death for those who think they got nerfed by having 3 more seconds on their Shroud cooldown is the fact that they don’t use a staff in PvP and therefore don’t need Soul Marks (which imo is the only reason one should pick Soul Reaping for PvP at all).

flow.6043:

Crinn.7864:

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

I’m using this quote but my answer to it is supposed to address everyone who is bothered by the change to Speed of Shadows:

The primary cause of death for those who think they got nerfed by having 3 more seconds on their Shroud cooldown is the fact that they don’t use a staff in PvP and therefore don’t need Soul Marks (which imo is the only reason one should pick Soul Reaping for PvP at all).

Depends heavily on chosen builds. My aggressive power reaper gains nothing from Soul Marks since it doesn’t have any use for staff, and non-boon movespeed is huge for reapers which orient themselves towards shroud. The change in cooldowns is nearly a 50% increase in windows of opportunity for your opponents versus before.

To get equal effect, you need to run Spite/SotL amd drop CtD therr as well, so just to have the same level of offensive pressure as before, you need to sacrifice a trait, a utility, have 50% increased windows of vulnerability, lose a ~1k burst from a modified spinal shivers, and have lower damage in general. Previously-winnable matchups like power rev snd dh are now a huge struggle because there’s no wiggle room left in the build.

Further your point only holds in sPvP. WvW soul mark reapers are absolutely demolished compared to SoS ones from the faster pace of combat.

DeceiverX.8361:

flow.6043:

…

Depends heavily on chosen builds. My aggressive power reaper gains nothing from Soul Marks since it doesn’t have any use for staff

You’re just confirming my point.

Your build is weaker than any build that uses a staff because they use a staff and you don’t.
The problem isn’t how the change affected your build but that you shoudn’t have run that build in the first place.

DeceiverX.8361:

The change in cooldowns is nearly a 50% increase in windows of opportunity for your opponents versus before.

I know you’re trying to say that 3 is almost 50% of 7.
But I call bs if you try to argue that in every fight you ever had you spent all time in Shroud except for the occasional 7 seconds (and not more) to generate life force.

DeceiverX.8361:

To get equal effect, you need to run Spite/SotL amd drop CtD therr as well, so just to have the same level of offensive pressure as before, you need to sacrifice a trait, a utility, have 50% increased windows of vulnerability, lose a ~1k burst from a modified spinal shivers, and have lower damage in general.

I don’t understand what you mean here. Maybe post some build calc links.

DeceiverX.8361:

Further your point only holds in sPvP. WvW soul mark reapers are absolutely demolished compared to SoS ones from the faster pace of combat.

Wrong.

flow.6043:

The primary cause of death for those who think they got nerfed by having 3 more seconds on their Shroud cooldown is the fact that they don’t use a staff in PvP and therefore don’t need Soul Marks (which imo is the only reason one should pick Soul Reaping for PvP at all).

I’d love to hear your reasoning for why Staff is soo good for a power necro. You’re not the first to claim staff is mandatory for power builds, but I’ve never seen any decent reason given beyond force of habit from the years where necros lacked any other decent options.

First of all, does your emphasis on “power necro” mean you would agree the staff is a good choice for condition builds? And if yes, why? Because this way your poison and bleeding ticks a little higher?

The damage you get from staff really is a secondary benefit.
What matters more in PvP is the range, the mark mechanics, the aoe, the cc, the unblockablity if traited, the life force regeneration (even without Soul Marks) and a few other things to a lesser degree. It’s a combination that is simply not available on other weapon sets.

I checked out the build you are using on your yt channel and I don’t doubt that you are successful with it, especially now after the Soul Eater buff. But a build with a staff would still be stronger overall.

flow.6043:

First of all, does your emphasis on “power necro” mean you would agree the staff is a good choice for condition builds? And if yes, why? Because this way your poison and bleeding ticks a little higher?

The damage you get from staff really is a secondary benefit.
What matters more in PvP is the range, the mark mechanics, the aoe, the cc, the unblockablity if traited, the life force regeneration (even without Soul Marks) and a few other things to a lesser degree. It’s a combination that is simply not available on other weapon sets.

I checked out the build you are using on your yt channel and I don’t doubt that you are successful with it, especially now after the Soul Eater buff. But a build with a staff would still be stronger overall.

My disdain for staff has nothing to do with damage. It’s based on how power reaper plays differently than condi necro.

You use staff on condi necro for a number of reasons, the two important ones being
1) It’s a strong kiting weapon, and cNecro has to be kiting constantly due to it’s slow LF generation preventing it from brawling.
2) There really aren’t any other decent options for condi. MH dagger is just bad, GS doesn’t work because trying to melee with cNecro is insanely risky, and Axe only brings power damage with no utility, and of course cNecro doesn’t have the stats to make a power weapon like axe work.

Thus scepter/staff is the only sane setup for a condi necro.

Now of course you can take a power necro and run axe/staff, but I must ask what does axe/staff bring to the table that condi scepter/staff doesn’t? Axe/staff power lacks the weakness and corruption spam of condi scepter, it lacks the debuff spam of condi necro. Axe/staff power is just a underpowered condi necro with better survivability.

Axe/GS power builds however, bring tools to the table that condi necro doesn’t have. Nightfall, grasping darkness, and death spiral are all tools that condi necro has no equivalent to, and they are useful tools.

I’ve played around with axe/staff, and I’ve encountered many axe/staff reapers, and I have always gotten a strong impression that those axe/staff reapers are doing little, and bring little for their team.

I don’t doubt that x/staff power reaper has a longer life expectancy than x/GS power reaper, but anyone that enjoys the staff playstyle would be far more useful to their team on a condi scepter/staff build than running any kind of a power build.

In a power build staff is only good in a coordinated team for aoe cc purposes while others do the damage. When you are on your own, it’s a wasted weapon slot.

Soul Marks LF gen is a joke compared to the typical power reaper weapons (dagger, axe, GS, warhorn, focus).

And staff unblockables… useless besides the aoe cc potential, because marks don’t deal any significant power damage. Great, you can interrupt blocks… just to deal zero damage for the next 10 seconds.

Speed of Shadows: Non-team-oriented power peapers spend a lot of time in melee. They benefit more of the shorter shroud CD than a condi build, that has insane pressure from a distance, more armor and can kite better due to condi and soft-cc overload.

The whole soul reaping traitline is trash now for power builds. Curses offers a comparable shroud burst (fury on shroud enter), more sustain (weakness), more corrupts.

Crinn.7864:

…

All your assumptions about what a condi build can or can’t do compared to a power build seem to be contingent on a very specific trait and utility setup that has nothing to do with the actual build type.

KrHome.1920:

In a power build staff is only good in a coordinated team for aoe cc purposes while others do the damage.

Invalid argument. Other weapons have cc as well.
And have you ever heard any team call out a necro’s mark skills to coordinate with others?

KrHome.1920:

When you are on your own, it’s a wasted weapon slot.

Blasphemy!
Hand in your necro card on your way out pls.

KrHome.1920:

Soul Marks LF gen is a joke compared to the typical power reaper weapons (dagger, axe, GS, warhorn, focus).

It’s not a joke at all. But even without Soul Marks staff has Necrotic Grasp, and Necrotic Grasp has by far the highest lf regen potential of all our skills.

KrHome.1920:

And staff unblockables… useless besides the aoe cc potential, because marks don’t deal any significant power damage. Great, you can interrupt blocks… just to deal zero damage for the next 10 seconds.

Unblockable chill, interrupt and condi transfers are useless? k
Btw, being unable to follow up with damage after interrupting someone is either a build or l2p problem, not the staff’s fault.

KrHome.1920:

Speed of Shadows: Non-team-oriented power peapers spend a lot of time in melee. They benefit more of the shorter shroud CD than a condi build, that has insane pressure from a distance, more armor and can kite better due to condi and soft-cc overload.

What’s a non-team-oriented reaper?
Anyway, I and others have said it many times already, but regarding cooldowns a chill cleanse is better than just 3 sec on Shroud only.
Also, like Crinn, your conception of how a condi build is supposed to be played differently than a power build just isn’t true. All the pros and cons you’ve listed are entirely adjustable with traits and utility skills for both build types.

There are only a couple of ways to build a condi reaper, and neither of those ways have any major differences in functionality.

Moreover if you’ve got some secret build that somehow makes staff power reaper bring something useful to the table, I’d love to hear it, because I’m yet to see any build or argument that supports staff power reaper doing anything that can’t be done better by conventional setups.

Nobody is arguing that staff has no use, it just isn’t as useful as other options. (namely GS)

flow.6043:

DeceiverX.8361:

flow.6043:

…

Depends heavily on chosen builds. My aggressive power reaper gains nothing from Soul Marks since it doesn’t have any use for staff

You’re just confirming my point.

Your build is weaker than any build that uses a staff because they use a staff and you don’t.
The problem isn’t how the change affected your build but that you shoudn’t have run that build in the first place.

DeceiverX.8361:

The change in cooldowns is nearly a 50% increase in windows of opportunity for your opponents versus before.

I know you’re trying to say that 3 is almost 50% of 7.
But I call bs if you try to argue that in every fight you ever had you spent all time in Shroud except for the occasional 7 seconds (and not more) to generate life force.

DeceiverX.8361:

To get equal effect, you need to run Spite/SotL amd drop CtD therr as well, so just to have the same level of offensive pressure as before, you need to sacrifice a trait, a utility, have 50% increased windows of vulnerability, lose a ~1k burst from a modified spinal shivers, and have lower damage in general.

I don’t understand what you mean here. Maybe post some build calc links.

DeceiverX.8361:

Further your point only holds in sPvP. WvW soul mark reapers are absolutely demolished compared to SoS ones from the faster pace of combat.

Wrong.

Lmao, okay.

So Basically, we’re seeing underpowered builds already nerfed because reasons and that it doesn’t matter, and anyone who plays without a staff is bad.

I’m sorry but you’re beyond reasoning. At this point I’m just clearing the air so people unfamiliar don’t get confused by what is honestly just nonsense.

The staff is a garbage weapon for power reaper. It used to have a fair use-case because it was the best ranged option for power necro because Axe sucked. Axe got buffed and is one of the top weapons necro has. A/D brings everything staff has save the fear, except it also has everything on lower cooldowns that aren’t obvious to dodge through, retaining superior power coefficients and better boon corruption, with much better synergy for vuln stacking, and GS is the best melee option that necromancer has when in good hands.

Would love to see your super-powerful staff power build.

Right, it doesn’t exist.

Spinal shivers on three boons and a power build meant to actually kill things hits 4-5k easily on targets with three boons, which is nearly everyone these days. CtD being overriden by SotL for the necessary 25% mobility to keep power shroud builds relevant immediately bumps the burst of this proc alone by 1k damage on its hit and all subsequent hits by a substantial margin. On a target below half, this usually means 1-1.5k damage lost per AA hit in shroud. There really isn’t much math needed here. This is common knowledge to people who actually play an aggressive power reaper.

The CDR is massive when flickering shroud between negation and alternating weapons and utilities and use of DCharge. A power reaper should want to spend the least amount of time possible outside of shroud when engaged with his enemy unless performing necessary actions that require leaving shroud, such as transferring mass condition application, corrupting important boons, or stunbreaking a pre-burst-combo CC that’d otherwise just waste LF.

Crinn.7864:

There are only a couple of ways to build a condi reaper, and neither of those ways have any major differences in functionality.

Moreover if you’ve got some secret build that somehow makes staff power reaper bring something useful to the table, I’d love to hear it, because I’m yet to see any build or argument that supports staff power reaper doing anything that can’t be done better by conventional setups.

Nobody is arguing that staff has no use, it just isn’t as useful as other options. (namely GS)

Noticed you’re doing pretty good this season, are you mainly on Reaper?

Ramoth.9064:

Crinn.7864:

There are only a couple of ways to build a condi reaper, and neither of those ways have any major differences in functionality.

Moreover if you’ve got some secret build that somehow makes staff power reaper bring something useful to the table, I’d love to hear it, because I’m yet to see any build or argument that supports staff power reaper doing anything that can’t be done better by conventional setups.

Nobody is arguing that staff has no use, it just isn’t as useful as other options. (namely GS)

Noticed you’re doing pretty good this season, are you mainly on Reaper?

I only play reaper. I might do some spellbreaker and scourge when PoF launches just for a change of pace.

Crinn.7864:

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

If this is what Soul Reaping was doing for you, why not switch into Death Magic and take Unholy Sanctuary? Death Shroud is never on cooldown when you need it to protect you from a spike, with US.

Sarrs.4831:

Crinn.7864:

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

If this is what Soul Reaping was doing for you, why not switch into Death Magic and take Unholy Sanctuary? Death Shroud is never on cooldown when you need it to protect you from a spike, with US.

Because death magic is a pretty bad line at the moment.

You don’t want to be using minions, so the 1 traits are all garbage.

You don’t want to be stacking toughness, so the toughness to power conversion is garbage.

As a power reaper you have low access to poison, so the putrid defense is garbage.

Reapers protection is too situational to be deemed good, so really, its garbage.

So: ding ding ding, the only good trait is shrouded removal, and the protection on shroud exit minor trait.

Unholy sanctuary is a decent trait, but its kinda like training wheels, and you really dont want to rely on them, especially when the whole trait line will hold you back.

DeceiverX.8361:

So Basically, we’re seeing underpowered builds already nerfed because reasons and that it doesn’t matter, and anyone who plays without a staff is bad.

No, you get a buff to a trait that was thus far only used by builds that weren’t as good as they could’ve been because they didn’t have a staff, regardless of the player’s skill.

DeceiverX.8361:

because Axe sucked. Axe got buffed and is one of the top weapons necro has.

Fun fact – coming from someone who was using an axe before it was cool – throughout the many little buffs the axe got over the years, it was only deemed good by the masses after a simple damage buff. Not after the range increase, not after corruption was added to Unholy Feast, not after the significant cast time and cd reductions, non of the changes that actually mattered for PvP helped the axe’s popularity.

So the way you said it makes it seem like there was a single patch that turned the axe from terrible to awesome over night.

DeceiverX.8361:

A/D brings everything staff has…

See, what you say about the axe and then suggesting that off-hand dagger is better than Putrid and Reaper’s Mark… I just can’t take you seriously like this. You obviously don’t know your necro weapon skills.

DeceiverX.8361:

… and GS is the best melee option that necromancer has when in good hands.

For PvE, yes.

DeceiverX.8361:

Would love to see your super-powerful staff power build.

Not “my” staff build, but pick literally any build that doesn’t use a staff, replace GS or whatever with a staff and the staff version of it will straight up beat it.

It’s a shame you’re all on NA otherwise I’d just show you in game.

DeceiverX.8361:

Spinal shivers on three boons and a power build meant to actually kill things hits 4-5k easily on targets with three boons, which is nearly everyone these days. CtD being overriden by SotL for the necessary 25% mobility to keep power shroud builds relevant immediately bumps the burst of this proc alone by 1k damage on its hit and all subsequent hits by a substantial margin. On a target below half, this usually means 1-1.5k damage lost per AA hit in shroud. There really isn’t much math needed here. This is common knowledge to people who actually play an aggressive power reaper.

I’m more confused than before.

CtD means Close to Death and SotL means Signet of the Locust, yes?

So CtD, a trait, gets overridden by a signet??
And you need the 25% mobility of the signet for a Shroud build when signet’s passives don’t even work in Shroud?
Plus, you’re suggesting that you wouldn’t even use the signet and just have a wasted utility slot for the sake of extra movement speed? You do realize that the new Speed of Shadows gives you swiftness in addition to removing all movement imparing conditions, so in that regard it’s way superior to the old version of the trait. Also, you probably use a warhorn too, right?

Anyway…

DeceiverX.8361:

To get equal effect, you need to run Spite/SotL amd drop CtD therr as well…

This was your original statement. I still don’t get what you mean by getting equal effects or what any of the Spite traits have to do with the change to Speed of Shadows.

Sarrs.4831:

Crinn.7864:

The primary cause of death for necromancers in PvP is getting spiked while shroud is on cooldown. old Speed of Shadows meant that necromancer had a lower vulnerability window.

If this is what Soul Reaping was doing for you, why not switch into Death Magic and take Unholy Sanctuary? Death Shroud is never on cooldown when you need it to protect you from a spike, with US.

DM is super weak. SR is vastly superior. I’m experimenting with Curses/Spite/Reaper, but it’s really horrible to just run passive signets without active skills, and the lack of shouts severely hurts the build.

Flow-

You just really don’t get it… SoS is and was a better trait than Soul Marks or any staff-using power reaper outside of hyper-organized sPvP groups. The shroud flickering and movespeed which cannot be corrupted, stripped, stolen or removed in any way, shape, or form were what made the trait actually worth taking.

The only buff it has now is when flickering shroud for non-shroud movespeed. But that’s pointless because if out-of-shroud movespeed was super important, you’d run warhorn or SotL instead; both of which were very potent in their own rights.

I also ran axe before it got buffed so there’s no need to lecture me. I actually ran SoS + A/D + GS before people started moving from Soul Marks and before any of the kits were buffed because they have amazing potential when played well. If you really want to go digging through my hundreds of posts since HoT, you’ll find me saying that and a large number of people (who since moved to A/D + GS + SoS disagreeing with what I had to say. I tried staff for the initial few weeks of reaper, and while silly when comboing SS into Chillblains’ poison field for 24 poison stacks, it wasn’t very good.).

I think OH dagger is just as good in a majority of settings. The higher cooldowns and ease-of-dodging marks (which have longer cast times, more obvious tells, etc.) isn’t worth the tradeoff. In a larger group fight or heavily-organized one where the necro is babysat? Sure, it’s a good kit. But are the gains really oh-so-strong? Not really.

GS is the better PvP weapon over dagger. It almost has been from the beginning. AA chain 1/2 and Nightfall/Grasp make the kit astonishingly strong. Gravedigger is absolute garbage, but a power reaper shouldn’t be camping outside of shroud any longer than necessary to a few essential GS hits.

CtD gets overridden by the Signets of Suffering trait necessary in conjunction with SotL for the movespeed bonus. I typo’d the trait out of it. This occupies a trait slot replacing CtD as well as a utility slot which could have previously been swapped into depending on matchup or environment (Cleanse/Stunbreak are obviously very much necessities in a power reaper build, a typical “best combo” being Suffer and SA).

You consistently seem to fail to recognize the merit of the old SoS movespeed bonus, which is why CtD can’t realistically be traited since an aggressive power reaper depends so much on the movespeed from the Signet trait: It cannot be removed. A power reaper/thief matchup used to be fairly winnable – if not easy depending on the thief’s kit – unless the thief was astonishingly good at abusing Daredevil (and often needed to also be running Acro for HtC due to GS’s capacity to CC-lock/instakill a thief with one well-placed and well-timed GDarkness+shroud combo). Swiftness can and will be stripped, stolen, and corrupted. By every profession. It only takes an interrupt and the right sigils and it’s gone. Or a thief stealing with BT or LS which now out-paces you by a huge margin without the swiftness (also, S/D thief was buffed and is run much more often now, so good luck maintaining it), or a mesmer with GS3 which is already at range and probably running chronomancer, or another necromancer turning it into cripple from any number of corrupts (such as scepter AA) and laughing as you get ganked and can’t even play catchup.

It is a shame, I’d love to duel you. I can’t actually recall a time which I’ve lost a fair fight to a power reaper running staff; they’re normally just free kills.

flow.6043:

DeceiverX.8361:

So Basically, we’re seeing underpowered builds already nerfed because reasons and that it doesn’t matter, and anyone who plays without a staff is bad.

No, you get a buff to a trait that was thus far only used by builds that weren’t as good as they could’ve been because they didn’t have a staff…

I used Speed of Shadows along with Relentless Pursuit, Life from Death, Transfusion, and staff when mass res’ing in PvE zergs filled with AoE so what flow says seems right.

The change to Speed of Shadows is not a bad deal with its broader range of use cases. Flashing had become a niche, anyway, and soon barriers will provide far more support than a small ICD reduction.

DeceiverX.8361:

I think OH dagger is just as good in a majority of settings. The higher cooldowns and ease-of-dodging marks (which have longer cast times, more obvious tells, etc.) isn’t worth the tradeoff.

Lower cooldowns, yes, except maybe when you precast marks. Everything else, no.

All marks are cast with the same animation except for Reaper’s Mark. There is no tell for where a necro is going to place them, you don’t even have to face the direction you’re casting them. There is no travel time like for Deathly Swarm’s projectile, which is therefore a lot more readable and dodgable the further you stand away from the necro. And even in melee range it makes a huge difference whether you instantly cleanse with the Putrid Mark hit or have to wait for the dagger projectile to bounce 3 times.
Enfeebling Blood has a similarly big animation which takes about 3 hours until it actually lands, not to mention that an aoe stun is clearly more useful in PvP than 2 stacks of bleeding and weakness.
And last but not least: the range. Range indicators for aoe skills always refer to the center. So the center of marks can be placed at 1200, add 240 for the radius and another 60 for the actual hit when triggered. Also, you can move away during the cast time so that gives you even more distance. Absolutely no contest compared to dagger.

DeceiverX.8361:

movespeed which cannot be corrupted, stripped, stolen or removed in any way, shape, or form were what made the trait actually worth taking.

…

CtD gets overridden by the Signets of Suffering trait necessary in conjunction with SotL for the movespeed bonus. … This occupies a trait slot replacing CtD as well as a utility slot

Ok I unterstand what you mean now.

Counter argument: not only would the opportunity cost for the signet be way too high – like you said yourself – but you are totally overestimating the value of those 25% movement speed.
Obvious sulution: don’t use the signet, stay with CtD, get used to getting swiftness with SoS. And yes, it can be corrupted or stripped, but that is actually less likely than having some movement imparing condition on you which would get cleansed with the new version of the trait. So while you used to slow-mo crawl through a fight with cripple and/or chilled (but with +25%!!) the new trait will let you just walk away without those condis.
And i don’t want to elaborate too much at this point, but cleansing has even more value in context of removing cover conditions and cd managment without chilled.

It’s obviously better than before. And there is no need to change your utilities or whatever to compensate for anything. So get over it and get used to it.

DeceiverX.8361:

Flow-

You just really don’t get it… SoS is and was a better trait than Soul Marks or any staff-using power reaper outside of hyper-organized sPvP groups. The shroud flickering and movespeed which cannot be corrupted, stripped, stolen or removed in any way, shape, or form were what made the trait actually worth taking.

The only buff it has now is when flickering shroud for non-shroud movespeed. But that’s pointless because if out-of-shroud movespeed was super important, you’d run warhorn or SotL instead; both of which were very potent in their own rights.

I also ran axe before it got buffed so there’s no need to lecture me. I actually ran SoS + A/D + GS before people started moving from Soul Marks and before any of the kits were buffed because they have amazing potential when played well. If you really want to go digging through my hundreds of posts since HoT, you’ll find me saying that and a large number of people (who since moved to A/D + GS + SoS disagreeing with what I had to say. I tried staff for the initial few weeks of reaper, and while silly when comboing SS into Chillblains’ poison field for 24 poison stacks, it wasn’t very good.).

I think OH dagger is just as good in a majority of settings. The higher cooldowns and ease-of-dodging marks (which have longer cast times, more obvious tells, etc.) isn’t worth the tradeoff. In a larger group fight or heavily-organized one where the necro is babysat? Sure, it’s a good kit. But are the gains really oh-so-strong? Not really.

GS is the better PvP weapon over dagger. It almost has been from the beginning. AA chain 1/2 and Nightfall/Grasp make the kit astonishingly strong. Gravedigger is absolute garbage, but a power reaper shouldn’t be camping outside of shroud any longer than necessary to a few essential GS hits.

CtD gets overridden by the Signets of Suffering trait necessary in conjunction with SotL for the movespeed bonus. I typo’d the trait out of it. This occupies a trait slot replacing CtD as well as a utility slot which could have previously been swapped into depending on matchup or environment (Cleanse/Stunbreak are obviously very much necessities in a power reaper build, a typical “best combo” being Suffer and SA).

You consistently seem to fail to recognize the merit of the old SoS movespeed bonus, which is why CtD can’t realistically be traited since an aggressive power reaper depends so much on the movespeed from the Signet trait: It cannot be removed. A power reaper/thief matchup used to be fairly winnable – if not easy depending on the thief’s kit – unless the thief was astonishingly good at abusing Daredevil (and often needed to also be running Acro for HtC due to GS’s capacity to CC-lock/instakill a thief with one well-placed and well-timed GDarkness+shroud combo). Swiftness can and will be stripped, stolen, and corrupted. By every profession. It only takes an interrupt and the right sigils and it’s gone. Or a thief stealing with BT or LS which now out-paces you by a huge margin without the swiftness (also, S/D thief was buffed and is run much more often now, so good luck maintaining it), or a mesmer with GS3 which is already at range and probably running chronomancer, or another necromancer turning it into cripple from any number of corrupts (such as scepter AA) and laughing as you get ganked and can’t even play catchup.

It is a shame, I’d love to duel you. I can’t actually recall a time which I’ve lost a fair fight to a power reaper running staff; they’re normally just free kills.

I would probably never use dagger.Melee dmg seems real weak, and there is few options to cc or stun or add swiftness on the dagger to make it more melee friendly.

Personally I would definitely go with speed of shadows as the go to ability.Swiftness can be corrupted but you can instantly get rid of all movement impairing disabilities while in shroud, and a second life bar.This adds so much defense that its non tradeable, especially since stability is a huge issue for necromancer.Signet is a good choice to get probably, combined with warhorn.Not sure if both can stack.