Guild Wars 2

So the new camera and targeting system is really cool. However, I noticed a really big problem when he was showing it off on the Necro, and that is a massive lack of counterplay. This has been an issue for a long time, but with the removal of yet another small venue of counterplay (having to aim them), marks are now literally just press a button and they hit almost guaranteed. There is no travel time, just a 3/4s casting animation that gives you no tell of whether you’ll be hit by the mark or not. So in a teamfight of 5 people, all 5 enemies are under perceived threat of being hit by every mark cast, regardless of where you aim. This isn’t just an issue for enemies, but it heavily gates the power staff can be allowed to have because 4/5 of its abilities are extremely reliable, so they can’t do nearly as much as other skills.

Everyone knows I’d like to see staff changed away from marks, but at the very least I think marks need to show up as a red circle where they are aimed at the start of your cast, to give clarity to enemies on where they land. This doesn’t add any time delays, it just allows enemies to know they’ll be hit and act appropriately. Thoughts?

I like marks so i dont want them to go away but i guess i could live with a red circle…

Unnecessary, marks are not powerful enough to warrant it. Nor do necros have the active defense to allow marks to start missing more often.

I’ll only support it if all marks are tweaked to be much more powerful first.

gavyne.6847:

Unnecessary, marks are not powerful enough to warrant it. Nor do necros have the active defense to allow marks to start missing more often.

I’ll only support it if all marks are tweaked to be much more powerful first.

Basically this, the marks are not strong enough to warrant such counterplay. Also a lot of skills are ground target and have no travel time/tells (necro excell at those). The difference is that they are pulsing, but does it really make a difference if a mark is 1~2 pulses worth at best?

Other AOEs don’t have “pre-marks” too… So why marks?

(Someone who just got home from work) What new camera system? o.O looks the same to me

No other skill operates like this and it would be unfair to all of a sudden attach this mechanic to marks. I would agree to having a more obvious animation though.

I would love it if marks pulsed instead, that way it gives us more pressure for defense as well as give the enemy time to not get hit by the full mark if they moved out of it.

Matt Stacey.7415:

(Someone who just got home from work) What new camera system? o.O looks the same to me

Actioncamera incoming soon… It looks nice and could be very funny. You have to wait for the new Guildchat on YT

There are other similar skills which are also more influential to the fight, so I don’t see Marks being too much of a problem.
And I haven’t read about the new camera yet, but it generally sounds problematic balance-wise.

Almost every other GTAoE skill in the game either has pre-casting effects (Dragon’s Tooth), pulsing effects, or a mix of both. There are very few things in the game which have no travel time, no designating animations, and no after-cast effects, where the ability just immediately hits an area with no way to know where that will be. I’d also argue any that do should have a similar system.

Bhawb.7408:

Almost every other GTAoE skill in the game either has pre-casting effects (Dragon’s Tooth), pulsing effects, or a mix of both. There are very few things in the game which have no travel time, no designating animations, and no after-cast effects, where the ability just immediately hits an area with no way to know where that will be. I’d also argue any that do should have a similar system.

It’s not like it is much different from using the instant cast option we have now and clicking on their feet, it really is just a QoL change for that…

No, but this isn’t a remotely new argument either, it just brings it up again.

I would like to see that Action camera, well…in action before calling for changes. And I bet there will be a lot of other more burning (huehue) issues the Balance team will face once HoT drops aside from increased accuracy of Necro staff.

For anyone who missed it (like myself):
http://dulfy.net/2015/10/16/gw2-guild-chat-new-legendaries-and-changes-livestream-notes/

I don’t see the different, it is just easier to use or even harder to use if your target LoS you. Unless this option ignore LoS and act like teleport which I doubt. From what I can see this is just QoL change and not a Skill Funtion change.

Bhawb.7408:

So the new camera and targeting system is really cool. However, I noticed a really big problem when he was showing it off on the Necro, and that is a massive lack of counterplay. This has been an issue for a long time, but with the removal of yet another small venue of counterplay (having to aim them), marks are now literally just press a button and they hit almost guaranteed.
…

That new camera mode doesn’t actually change our mark mechanic, in fact I think this way the staff would be a lot more difficult use.

However, I do support your notion.
I’ve made this suggestion several times myself, and unlike you I actually like the staff.

And not only do I think we need red indicator circles while casting, but I’d also like to have more distinguishable icons on the floor after they are placed. Anet clearly made an effort to have them look different (like smoke coming off Reaper’s Mark) but in the heat of battle they are all just green dots. What I’d like to have instead are icons that are different in shape and stretch across the whole mark.

You really couldn’t miss marks as it was to begin with. Their AOEs are so big that most players can’t get out of the activation circle before you finish your animation. Besides, not everything has or needs counter play. It really isn’t that different than any other class dropping a trap or a chaos storm.

Honestly, I wanna know if the lock function will automatically turn you around. I think this has bigger re-precautions for thiefs.

Yeah i dont see the difference at all with fast-cast aoe and this, but also surely the lack of damage on staff brings it in line with lightning strike on ele and electric discharge being insta-cast.

No, really not neccessary. Its just a QOL change at the very best. Necromancer has way too much counterplay compared to other classes already, staff is already a very weak weapon to begin with. There really is no reason to add anything like that at all.

On a higher level this would cost resources that would be much better invested in important stuff. Maybe, at some point if all necromancer problems are fixed they can do this kind of polishing, giving each and every skill a animattion as a “call” like dragons tooth (which would look great from an optical standpoint) but at this point dont even try to consider such a thing.

to be frank I believe marks are too weak to warrant so much counterplay when compared to what they were the past two years

gotta hand it to the necro community calling for more nerfs on our class when nothing really changed. Its a QoL change for the better. We already have the functionality to place marks on out targets so nothing actually changed. If anything it will make it harder to zone someone by placing the mark in front of them. or even placing the mark so it will hit the most targets. I dont see how this makes us suddenly overpowering that a nerf is needed so the weak attacks of the staff

I will say that if you are experienced enough as necromancer, you almost do not miss any marks with the actual system. I dont feel like it will be a huge change of staff’s mechanic, at least for me.

Dhampyr.2813:

gotta hand it to the necro community calling for more nerfs on our class when nothing really changed. Its a QoL change for the better. We already have the functionality to place marks on out targets so nothing actually changed. If anything it will make it harder to zone someone by placing the mark in front of them. or even placing the mark so it will hit the most targets. I dont see how this makes us suddenly overpowering that a nerf is needed so the weak attacks of the staff

EVERY class can cast their aoe on target… Necro was just an example because there are 4 on the staff…

Dhampyr.2813:

gotta hand it to the necro community calling for more nerfs on our class when nothing really changed. Its a QoL change for the better. We already have the functionality to place marks on out targets so nothing actually changed. If anything it will make it harder to zone someone by placing the mark in front of them. or even placing the mark so it will hit the most targets. I dont see how this makes us suddenly overpowering that a nerf is needed so the weak attacks of the staff

1) No other weapon in the game has 4 abilities on the same set that have no travel time, no activation time, no tell of where they’ll land, that can also be made unblockable, are entirely frontloaded, and can ignore a lot of LoS.

2) If reasonable counterplay makes staff too weak then buff staff. That’s part of the entire point, staff is kept so weak because it has such low levels of counterplay. That doesn’t mean that staff, and many abilities like marks, shouldn’t have better counterplay and be buffed appropriately.

This targeting change isn’t the only reason I bring this up, it has been an issue since launch that has been brought up. Staff has always had clarity issues, it took 1.5-2 years for it to even be reasonable to be able to tell between which marks were being cast. This isn’t good for a game that relies on tells.

If anything skills 2-4 need distinct cast animations, so that you do not have to guess what kind of mark your opponent is currently casting. 0.75 seconds casting time is more than enough counter play.

If your always trying to place marks right at your enemies feet your playing it wrong. Staff is a zoning tool, allowing you to kite, maintain distances and force people to dodge or eat the marks otherwise. It also gives you tools to fight stealth classes because marks will always trigger. This is essential against thieves especially as the mark will eat the blind from shadow shot.Also, putrid mark has a unique animation that is dodgeable, look for the glowing hand.

As for the original suggestion of making marks give a circle where they are going to land. I wouldn’t be against this because I think people would actually use more dodges on my marks than they do now. Mark of blood and chillblains in a teamfight are rarely dodged even if the person knows they are coming. Having an indicator would just mean people blow dodges on my 5 second cd skill.

REaper’s Mark and Putrid Mark both have visibly unique animations, so you shouldn’t have issues dodging them. Mark of blood isn’t worth a dodge roll. Chillblains is the only one that is questionable, it is worth dodging, but the animation difference between it and Mark of blood isn’t really noticeable. Maybe they could change that, so people could dodge it intentionally.

Bhawb.7408:

1) No other weapon in the game has 4 abilities on the same set that have no travel time, no activation time, no tell of where they’ll land, that can also be made unblockable, are entirely frontloaded, and can ignore a lot of LoS.

First off all necro staff abilities have a cast time of 3/4 seconds, as for other staff skill sets that have no travel time, I’m gonna use Elementalist Fire as an example. Here we have Lava Font, which has no cast time and no travel time, Flame Burst which also has no travel time but a cast time of 1/2, less than any of the necro staff abilities, Burning retreat, which is also instant, and Meteor Shower, which could be argued doesn’t have a true cast time as it can deal damage the second it begins channel, granted that’s heavily influenced by rng.

In any case the point of my post isn’t to argue, but to clarify that this is in no way exclusive to necro, and as was said before it really won’t change the current paradigm, especially due to the fact that there is already a setting in the options to quick-cast GTAoEs at the cursor.

Of those, only Flame Burst actually does everything at the beginning. Lava Font, Burning Retreat, and Meteor Shower all function as pulsing effects like wells; yes you might get hit by the first tick but you can move out. You can’t move out of marks once they hit.

Bhawb.7408:

Of those, only Flame Burst actually does everything at the beginning. Lava Font, Burning Retreat, and Meteor Shower all function as pulsing effects like wells; yes you might get hit by the first tick but you can move out. You can’t move out of marks once they hit.

Thing is, im thinking couldnt you say its still balanced because one meteor from meteor shower does about the same damage as a mark?

I get where you are coming from, so I’m going to deflect by just pointing out that a red ring before the animation is completely a false indicator if the skill is interrupted.

Zetsumei.4975:

Thing is, im thinking couldnt you say its still balanced because one meteor from meteor shower does about the same damage as a mark?

I’d argue clarity is important regardless of power, though its hardly something that has been universally applied. But Putrid Mark/Reaper’s Mark definitely have far more impact in a fight than a Meteor Storm that hasn’t been channeled at all (plus the meteors have travel time, though I’m not sure how reasonable it is to see and dodge individual meteors).

It isnt reasonable, just adds to your bad@ss points if you can do it. Not entirely sure if it would make a difference or not, for GTAoEs with travel time or 1s or longer cast times yes a red ring warning would make all the difference but for marks? no travel time so short a cast time, the time between the red ring appearing and cast time would be so short that a normal human shouldnt be able to react to it. Only way is if you know the mark is coming then you would dodge/block regardless of any ring warning.

On thief where I actually need to dodge it, once i notice the staff out, I blind to check if marks are incoming then just dodge 3 or 4 times. On any other class there similar ways to check or defend without wasting an attack opportunity trying to avoid a mark not meant for you.

I’m failing to see how this would make staff uncounterable. I can already juke out opponents about my cast location by simply looking another way and rotating the camera. This is not new for staff, so why all of a sudden are we saying this will make staff imbalanced? It’s a mediocre weapon at best, you really don’t need any more crutches to help out the already op spambot classes like mesmers and engis. Plus, if you make red circles, how do you expect to snare up stealthed enemies? Exactly… you won’t