State of the game 14th March
I just stand and take the Wars 100 blade,then root them and pet/wells bomb them.
I don’t know… Nothing wrong with Necros at all. I use three different builds in PVP: Damage with D/D and Axe/WH, Minionmaster mainly with Staff, Condition with Scepter/Warhorn and Staff.
For the D/D build you need to put some love into DS as it compliments it very well as a ranged “finisher”, gap closer and damage buffer (Thief going stealth next to you… time for DS to buffer the burst damage from backstab etc. — Mesmer with gazillions of clones and illusions? Siphon health and they’re gone in no time, all of them!)
I can’t decide which build I like most, quite honestly. All of them are viable. Sure, all have their strengths and weaknesses in certain situations, but overall they are fairly well balanced. That’s something you can hardly say of any other class.
With slight variations in utility skills, all of these builds work well in PvE for me too.
In WvWvW on the other hand… doesn’t really matter as it’s zergfesting most of the time. So you better go ranged/condition with Epidemic to give those people hard times while they knock the door :-)
Oh, and a Warrior is no threat for a Necro. At best they are entertaining, unless the Necro is asleep and doesn’t see the 100b coming.
(edited by Feyr.7283)
I think the reason that Necro has so many builds that people are willing to run is. We dont have 1 built that completely outshines all the others, to a massive massive degree.
Most (if not all) other classes have 1 spec that is just miles better than all the others. This is why there are lots of diverse specs used by the Necromancer Community. It isnt due to awsome balance, its due to not excelling at anything.
My example would be ; If you compare an ele to a necro, there are lots of specs out there for elementalists, where they could achieve similar results to a necro of similar spec. The reason they dont is , they have 1 awsome spec.
I think the reason that Necro has so many builds that people are willing to run is. We dont have 1 built that completely outshines all the others, to a massive massive degree.
Most (if not all) other classes have 1 spec that is just miles better than all the others. This is why there are lots of diverse specs used by the Necromancer Community. It isnt due to awsome balance, its due to not excelling at anything.
My example would be ; If you compare an ele to a necro, there are lots of specs out there for elementalists, where they could achieve similar results to a necro of similar spec. The reason they dont is , they have 1 awsome spec.
But that’s not a necro issue, that’s an every other class is broken issue. I have said this before and will continue saying it. We are the only current class that regardless of which damage build we go with whether it be Condition, Hybrid, Power, or Minion we will be close in terms of damage and utility. Every other class doesn’t have this type of balance.
You are complaining that we don’t have an awesome build, but that’s not true we have an awesome class. The rest are stuck with doing only one build to be competitive. Each of those single buidls are beatable by a necro. The fact that all of our builds can hold their own against those build is why they said we want other classes to be as diverse as a Necro.
TLDR: Having multiple builds is better than having one great niche build
Most (if not all) other classes have 1 spec that is just miles better than all the others. This is why there are lots of diverse specs used by the Necromancer Community. It isnt due to awsome balance, its due to not excelling at anything.
[…]The reason they [eles] dont is , they have 1 awsome spec.
I’d rather have a class with several viable choices than a class with essentially only one reasonable build.
One could go as far as saying that a D/D ele build is likely a little bit OP, but that’s off topic. Then again, we must keep in mind that Anet doesn’t want a 1vs1 balance, but rather a team balance. Not every class (and every possible build) will be able to fight all others with ease. Some are harder, some easier to beat.
For example, on my condition necro, a guardian bunker can often be annihilated quickly, if you can get him to remove his conditions early, wait for his self-boon spam and then turn them all into conditions at once and send him on a walk with staff fear and DS fear in short succession. Share the love with Epidemic if anybody else dares standing close :-)
On a damage necro build that’s same guardian is a lot tougher to beat.
By the way, Flesh Golem is immensely powerful too. Its knockdown is a life saver and deals decent damage as well. And his chills are extremely useful too. Lich form and Plague or whatever it’s called on the other hand are too slow. Useless elite skills in PVP. Your opponent will just stay at range and wait for the fight to continue, while healing up. But I’m digressing.
Back to your point, which I understand, I can only re-iterate that in my personal opinion having choices and diversity is much more desirable than having a single killer-build and that’s it.
TLDR: Having multiple builds is better than having one great niche build
+1 for that one.
The notion that you only use DS at low health is sadly laughable, and means you’re wasting most of the value of DS, and seriously hope they don’t balance DS with this in mind.
Sadly we do know they read these forums CHIPS, since they were aware of the ‘the cake is not a lie’ thread getting brought back up to reveal some old promises. It seems they just avoid posting, for whatever reason.
Ironically I think the build I run in PvP is probably the/one of the best counters to PvP, due to the simple quantity of AOE’s we have access to. (I have like 10 or something). Also thieves with shortbows can usually chill at range and spam their bouncing auto attack/cluster bomb/choking gas until they’re thinned out a bit.
They keep track of the forums, they just don’t post because I guarantee 90% of the community wouldn’t actually listen to it and just blindly throw out dozens of questions/accusations.
I don’t think they have any really strong players in the SotG things, or at least not always, because like you said, DS used only at low health is laughably terrible.
DS needs a rework as it’s just not a fun mechanic. My suggestion? Well, for starters how about giving the necromancer a damage buff depending on how full the DS bar is? That would give necromancers more of an incentive to conserve their DS and make it far more useful for non DS builds in general.
We could also have a skill to use that Consumes life force with more damage depending on how much LF we had. We could also rename it to Adrenaline, and then have necromancers wear Heavy armor, and use a great sword…
The concept of DS is fine, the only thing they need to do is fix the UI.
The concept of DS is fine, the only thing they need to do is fix the UI.
Indeed. Seeing actual health and conditions/boons is all that’s really needed.
We could also have a skill to use that Consumes life force with more damage depending on how much LF we had. We could also rename it to Adrenaline, and then have necromancers wear Heavy armor, and use a great sword…
The concept of DS is fine, the only thing they need to do is fix the UI.
Trust me, if I got a free warrior reroll I’d take it in a heartbeat.
Necromancers right now are simply not viable and DS is a large part of this. Anet won’t buff us to a competitive level because of it. Fixing the UI when the class is fundamentally broken won’t accomplish anything. Just ask rangers.
but rangers are competitive in PvP. So are necro’s.
We are completely viable. The fact is that multiple high level PvP teams use necros, many WvW groups use necros, and necros are just fine in PvE. The idea that we aren’t viable is just flat out false.
but rangers are competitive in PvP. So are necro’s.
PvP, yes. PvE, no.
And PvE is a pretty big part of the game. When was the last time you saw somebody looking specifically for a necromancer or a ranger?
We are completely viable. The fact is that multiple high level PvP teams use necros, many WvW groups use necros, and necros are just fine in PvE. The idea that we aren’t viable is just flat out false.
We have one good build for PvP. We have none for PvE.
That isn’t what I’d consider a viable class.
The real problem here is that all our balancing is done around DS, an ability which synergizes extremely poorly with most builds. Class balance boils down to synergy and as class we simply do not have much of it. Our traits are a mess, DS is what it is and our pets are bricks. Putting us on the same level as guardians and warriors at this point in time is just silly.
(edited by Fungalfoot.7213)
Unless you’re doing the high end fractals anything is viable in PvE, and short of doing mes x4 warrior speed runs, builds and even classes ultimately don’t make a great difference.
Warriors are absolute trash in PvP. When I see a warrior, its kind of like seeing a little kid playing playing pretend with a wooden stick, it makes you go awwwwwwww and then walk away.
Necromancer viable builds in PvP are: Terror, support, 2-3 DS builds, power, minions, and condition-damage; at least. All of those are strong in PvP, all of them are viable, and all of them have slight variations on each other.
Unless you’re doing the high end fractals anything is viable in PvE, and short of doing mes x4 warrior speed runs, builds and even classes ultimately don’t make a great difference.
I’d say functional is the better word. And yes, we certainly do function albeit barely and only under the best of circumstances. Honestly though, we both know there is absolutely no reason to take a necromancer over a warrior or guardian right now in PvE. In fact, plenty of parties will outright refuse to take you since you’ll be a burden regardless of your skill as a player. We simply do not have the mechanical support to function on the same level. This is what needs to be addressed.
Warriors are absolute trash in PvP. When I see a warrior, its kind of like seeing a little kid playing playing pretend with a wooden stick, it makes you go awwwwwwww and then walk away.
Necromancer viable builds in PvP are: Terror, support, 2-3 DS builds, power, minions, and condition-damage; at least. All of those are strong in PvP, all of them are viable, and all of them have slight variations on each other.
Minions viable in PvP? You mean the same minions who will randomly stop attacking and just stand around for absolutely no discernible reason? The same minions who gets blown into tiny chunks within seconds by anybody capable of laying down a bit of AoE hurt even if you do trait them for survivability?
They’ve been a joke since day one and they still are. Sure, they can pose a problem for single target burst builds when they do actually feel like working but that’s about the extent of their usefulness. Making them actually scale ( you know, like mesmer phantasms who for some reason also seem to have way better AI ) would be a decent first step in making them viable.
(edited by Fungalfoot.7213)
Who brings AoE into a 1v1 fight? Besides PVT elementalist AoE hitting like a wet noodle, there is tiny amounts of AoE in the current meta for side point fights; which is where you should be as an MM necro, imo. I’ve run minions with multiple groups against a lot of people at they are my absolute best side bunker build.
Not to mention minions are single highest source of boon stripping in a meta filled with boon stacking.
Who brings AoE into a 1v1 fight? Besides PVT elementalist AoE hitting like a wet noodle, there is tiny amounts of AoE in the current meta for side point fights; which is where you should be as an MM necro, imo. I’ve run minions with multiple groups against a lot of people at they are my absolute best side bunker build.
Not to mention minions are single highest source of boon stripping in a meta filled with boon stacking.
The single highest source of boon stripping would be corrupt boon which just so happens to fall under the one competitive build we do have. Minions are far too unreliable when it comes to attacking and when you see those boons light up you can’t rely on them to get the job done in a competitive environment.
And how often do 1v1 happen against organized efforts, really? Sure, you can pubstomp decently with a minion master but that doesn’t make it competitive. A decent engineer will destroy your army before it can do a single digit of damage.
The single highest source of boon stripping would be corrupt boon which just so happens to fall under the one competitive build we do have. Minions are far too unreliable when it comes to attacking and when you see those boons light up you can’t rely on them to get the job done in a competitive environment.
Corrupt boon converts all boons on a 32 second cooldown, whereas necromantic corruption is a 10% of removal on each attack. Some minions (bone fiend, shadow fiend) attack rather quickly, and you can have quite a few minions out at the same time.
If you were to assume bone fiend (Attacks twice per shot, iirc), shadow fiend (Attacks quite rapidly), flesh wurm (Attacks pretty slowly) and flesh golem (Standard rate?), there’s probably… 2 attacks per second overall? I’m trying to low-ball that estimate a bit, but I don’t really want to bother testing every minion’s attack rate just now.
Anyways, that’s somewhere around 60 attacks over the same cooldown as corrupt boon, so pretty reliably 6 boons removed. I’d put it as comparable overall, myself.
Of course, the timing difference is probably the most important part. If someone is constantly applying boons to themself, one corrupt boon isn’t going to stop them for long. But if a Ranger burns Rampage as One and you counter it with corrupt boon, that’s a serious reversal of momentum.
With necromantic corruption, you won’t be able to respond as quickly to a boon spike, but can keep chipping away at boons that are being reapplied.
Edit: I feel like you’re really overstating minion AI issues. They stop attacking about as frequently as corrupt boon / similar attacks are blocked by phantom obstructions.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
(edited by Softspoken.2410)
The single highest source of boon stripping would be corrupt boon which just so happens to fall under the one competitive build we do have. Minions are far too unreliable when it comes to attacking and when you see those boons light up you can’t rely on them to get the job done in a competitive environment.
Corrupt Boon is all boons removed on a 32 second cooldown (I think you can assume traited, if you can assume boon stripping on minion attack) whereas Necrotic Consumption is 1 boon per 10 seconds per minion, so in a minion master build that’s somewhere around 12 boons removed over a 30 second period. (Depending on if your minions live or die, I suppose?)
While Corrupt Boon would probably be better against giant boon spikes, people that constantly apply boons to themselves may only have about 3 or 4 of any type of boon up at a time. Plus, you can still take Spinal Shivers for even more boon stripping when you really need it.
Those are idealized and highly unrealistic circumstances for the minion master. Whereas corrupt boon will always do its job as advertised with minions it depends on if they can actually hit the target and if their AI is feeling cooperative. This is of course assuming they’re all alive which is pretty unlikely. At any rate, minion debooning is not a serious alternative in a competitive environment. It’s a gamble at best.
And it’s a 10% chance to remove boons on attack. A fairly useless trait all things considered.
(edited by Fungalfoot.7213)
And it’s a 10% chance to remove boons on attack. A fairly useless trait all things considered.
This is going to sound like a cop-out, but I looked it up after I posted but before you replied, then started changing my post appropriately. (There was a brief “Wait! It doesn’t work like that” message in between.)
Edit: Aw darn. I really was hoping for a response to the new post. I’ll still say that while I don’t have hard numbers about how many boon rips one could expect in 30 seconds, I still assert that periodic over-time removal has a place, just as much as spike removal does. The difference between the two differentiates between corrupt boon and necromantic corruption to make them difficult to compare, even beyond the utility skill / trait mismatch.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
(edited by Softspoken.2410)
Who brings AoE into a 1v1 fight? Besides PVT elementalist AoE hitting like a wet noodle, there is tiny amounts of AoE in the current meta for side point fights; which is where you should be as an MM necro, imo. I’ve run minions with multiple groups against a lot of people at they are my absolute best side bunker build.
Not to mention minions are single highest source of boon stripping in a meta filled with boon stacking.
You’re just parroting the same information and ignoring the biggest pitfall that’s been pointed out since beta. You need to roll the dice for minions to work. If you guys stopped being overprotective of arenanet, we might see some minion fixes. Saying everything is fine hurts us.
ANet devs are big boys/girls, I think they are capable of reading two opinions and not having a panic attack trying to decide which one is right. If they only read a bunch of people who picked up minions for a total of 2 seconds, they would make uninformed decisions. Over buffing something because a community doesn’t know what they are talking about doesn’t help us any more than leaving them as is.
They keep track of the forums, they just don’t post because I guarantee 90% of the community wouldn’t actually listen to it and just blindly throw out dozens of questions/accusations.
I don’t think they have any really strong players in the SotG things, or at least not always, because like you said, DS used only at low health is laughably terrible.
The thing that worries me the most is that DS is the thing that sets necros apart from other professions. It is a talent that necros start using since level 1. We start using DS before we get any wells. We start using DS before we get Epidemic. Any necro would have a ton of experience with DS, one way or another.
Honestly no necro, past level 30, would say “use DS just before you die”. Only people that pretty much never played the necro before would say something like that. DS is the necro’s core mechanic. If you don’t know DS you don’t know necro.
I mean there had been a lot of rumours that Anet didn’t pay enough attention to necros. They had just pretty much proven it.
Please Anet pay more attention to us from now on. We are important too. ^^
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Honestly CHIPS, I wish that that [all necros knowing DS] was true, but from my experience it just isn’t. I faced one guy using my DS bunker build a week ago, this necro obviously didn’t know what he was doing, he scored 0 points in the entire tPvP match, got killed by me at least 5 times, and never was able to turn my point. One of the biggest problems was that he just didn’t leverage DS at all. He didn’t take much to stack a lot of DS in the beginning of the fight (which a 1v1 build with lower defensive stats should look at doing), and by the time he had enough to use DS, all my big bursts were down and he just used it to delay his death.
And that is a recurring theme I see in PvP; I don’t pay as much attention to fellow necros in PvE. The problem is that while we have DS from the very beginning of the game, you really aren’t forced to use it or learn it. Whereas someone like an elementalist figures out very obviously that they need to swap attunements, you can “get by” as a necro and still be ignorant of DS.
And that is a recurring theme I see in PvP; I don’t pay as much attention to fellow necros in PvE. The problem is that while we have DS from the very beginning of the game, you really aren’t forced to use it or learn it. Whereas someone like an elementalist figures out very obviously that they need to swap attunements, you can “get by” as a necro and still be ignorant of DS.
Not sure what his spec was, but if he was condition spec, thats about all DS is good for. Condition spec necromancers gain little to no benefit from DS. Yeah, there is Dark Path with its 3 bleed stack, but as a conditionmancer, getting teleported into melee is bad. Very bad. He obviously wasn’t traited for terror if he didn’t try to proactively use Doom.
Even if you are condition damage, you should be taking advantage of DS when you can. Have the ability to stack up lots of LF at the beginning of the fight, so you can use it to actually tank burst damage. It is still a very strong defensive tool, even if for a condition necro it is mostly useful for that only.
Yeah, you should be taking advantage of DS, but condition builds have the hardest time building it up. How exactly do they build it up quickly, short of grabbing a spectral and wading into the thick of things or just standing back and spending most of the fight autoattacking with the staff?
Deathshroud is great…. please do not change the core mechanics here.
Necro is pretty solid atm… would like to see cool downs and conditions under the deathshroud UI
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)
Necro is a solid class. Now, if they would manage to remove the clunkyness in gameplay, i would consider this profession as complete.
With clunkyness i mean horrid casting times, for example stuff like epidemic cast time of 1 sec on land, while underwater is has 1/2 sec. That difference is huge, try it!
Slow cast times in general are a pain once you reach a higher skillcap when it’s about reaction and counter reaction. Necro gameplay doesn’t have to be as twitchy as for example playing a warrior of thief, but simply put: far to often you end up spamming buttons and nothing happens. I am sure that turns off many players from staying with the Necro.
I don’t/didn’t really get where y’all are talking about the devs saying “DS is used when low on health”, so I went and re-watched that section again.
Here’s the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zCUvIrH2BlU#t=3147s
Points to make:
1) DS now conforms to GW2’s definition of transform skills.
2) DS used to be the Necromancer down state
3) “…we wanted it to be skill of hitting it… you actually have to activate F1 if you were close to death, before if you went to 0 you would automatically kick into it…” No where is it implied you activate DS when low on health, but instead, if you happen to be, you must activate it (and balance the cooldown) specifically to enter DS, instead of having act as a down state, which is later described as broken, as you cannot stomp a player still running around (in DS).
4) They mention Axe specifically as “not so hot” and scepter “seen in some builds”, which by the way its said, tells me that axe based builds, and second to axe, scepter builds, should see some improvements, whereas all other weapons and “groups” of utilities are seen to be used often and effectively (is what I understand personally, so should see maybe some more impovements to axe, and possibly directly to scepter, if scepter isn’t addressed by some form of “condition build general” type fixes).
On the subject of build diversity, I almost didn’t see it, but after a while of leveling my own necro, I can definitely see their point. Necros do have a lot of options in ways they can build, and I think (but won’t bother re-checking yet) they said similar things about Guardians, in that Guardians also have multiple options for builds, but moreso than the Necro, they have a bit of disparity between effectiveness of certain builds. Particularly when Altuistic Healing was “discovered”, AH became “the” build of the community per se. I’d like to see Guardians be able to have a more visibly appealing burn centered build, and a few improvements to their scepter, and I equate that standing to necros as well. Axe needs some love (though I don’t say this from personal experience) and scepter just slightly so. Other classes, be it Ele, War, Mez, spvp or pve, will generally have, as far as I see it, 1-3 builds that just so far outperform others at generalized focuses (or at every task at once) that there’s no reason to run anything else. Those classes pale in comparison to Necro foremost, because of their lack of sheer number of useful builds.
My take on all of this is that we should start seeing classes being balanced on a “necro level”, and getting more builds on a more even ground, eliminating outliers as best as can be done.
@Ghotistyx.6942
I really can’t understand how people can enjoy not having any outstanding choice.
By having one build be outstanding does that make everything else weaker? Only by comparison really.
Does that kill build diversity or just give people who want to Min/Max an actual outlet to do so?
Here’s my impression of what would happen if other classes got “balanced” into the build diversity that Necros currently “enjoy”:
OMG they killed the class.
GG ANET profession x is totally kitten now.
Class broken I’m leaving.
Only thing we can do now is crap.
Why? ANet why?
@Ghotistyx.6942
I really can’t understand how people can enjoy not having any outstanding choice.
By having one build be outstanding does that make everything else weaker? Only by comparison really.
Does that kill build diversity or just give people who want to Min/Max an actual outlet to do so?Here’s my impression of what would happen if other classes got “balanced” into the build diversity that Necros currently “enjoy”:
OMG they killed the class.
GG ANET profession x is totally kitten now.
Class broken I’m leaving.
Only thing we can do now is crap.
Why? ANet why?
So basically balance…..
Necro’s have been saying all these things (and more) since BW1 when lich form was nerfed. Not that it didn’t need it, but at least it would make for more balance game play if they were to tone down the one build to suit the others such as we have it.
Let them eat cake, as we have been eating it for so long we are sweating yeast.
@Ghotistyx.6942
I really can’t understand how people can enjoy not having any outstanding choice.
By having one build be outstanding does that make everything else weaker? Only by comparison really.
Does that kill build diversity or just give people who want to Min/Max an actual outlet to do so?
Personally I love trying new builds all the time and if one was always the superior option I’d get bored very fast.
By having only a few outstanding builds you make most people feel pidgeonholed into using those few builds.
It’s probably a big part of the reason I play my Necro so much more than my Thief.
I can play the same few Stealth builds only so many times before getting bored and whenever I run Venoms or some such sillyness I just feel terribly useless in comparison.
I think the reason that Necro has so many builds that people are willing to run is. We dont have 1 built that completely outshines all the others, to a massive massive degree.
Most (if not all) other classes have 1 spec that is just miles better than all the others. This is why there are lots of diverse specs used by the Necromancer Community. It isnt due to awsome balance, its due to not excelling at anything.
My example would be ; If you compare an ele to a necro, there are lots of specs out there for elementalists, where they could achieve similar results to a necro of similar spec. The reason they dont is , they have 1 awsome spec.
But that’s not a necro issue, that’s an every other class is broken issue. I have said this before and will continue saying it. We are the only current class that regardless of which damage build we go with whether it be Condition, Hybrid, Power, or Minion we will be close in terms of damage and utility. Every other class doesn’t have this type of balance.
You are complaining that we don’t have an awesome build, but that’s not true we have an awesome class. The rest are stuck with doing only one build to be competitive. Each of those single buidls are beatable by a necro. The fact that all of our builds can hold their own against those build is why they said we want other classes to be as diverse as a Necro.
TLDR: Having multiple builds is better than having one great niche build
You are assuming these other professions have only one good spec. It had been my experience that is not usually the case. Mesmers have several very good specs and one OP one. The same is true for elementalists.
I’d rather have necros be like that: several good specs and one awesome one.
When talking about viable builds you have to separate the three different game modes. PvE is easy, you can do pretty much whatever you want and the only difference will be that it will take a little longer to complete dungeon runs (excluding Fractals where you need good builds).
In WvW there are the two halves of it (small and large), each has specific strong builds, but even then certain classes like Necromancer have a lot of options for each, and Warrior gets at best 100b.
PvP is where you hit a lot of issues for a lot of classes. Mesmers and Necromancers are the only two classes with decent amount of viable specs. Every other class has no more than 3 viable builds, with Warriors having 1. For example elementalists have D/D which is OP, they also have glass cannon D/D or S/D, and to a degree support is “viable” (although outclassed by guardian since a glass cannon can poop on a support ele).
You are assuming these other professions have only one good spec. It had been my experience that is not usually the case. Mesmers have several very good specs and one OP one. The same is true for elementalists.
I’d rather have necros be like that: several good specs and one awesome one.
You cannot seriously believe that having ‘several good specs and one awesome one’ would result in anything but the collective wisdom (‘wisdom’ used sarcastically here) shifting to ‘if you don’t use this one build, you can’t run Fractals/WvW/sPvP with us!’ If you doubt this is the direction it would take, simply look to the other professions. Or any other MMO. We’ve lucked out so far simply by GW2 still being in its own state of infancy, but once ‘good builds’ become entrenched, they become ‘preferred builds’ and, soon after, ‘only builds’.
It’s entirely possible to create multiple build ideas with equivalent throughput and varied utility, but the danger of one build beginning to take precedence results in 2 things: more QQ and niche min/maxing becoming mainstream expectations. People will demand ‘the best’ build, and players whose playstyle and level of skill clashes with that build flood the forums to complain. I don’t need to provide links to the other profession forums to prove that point.
Build variance should be properly maintained, but, honestly, discussing it at this stage is like debating paint colors for a house that’s burning down. Bug and mechanic fixes first, universal improvements second, build discussion seventh or eighth.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or not. If you feel build discussions are so insignificant, then don’t reply to a post that mentions it.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or not. If you feel build discussions are so insignificant, then don’t reply to a post that mentions it.
He is right, though. You’re idea that there should be several decent builds and one really good build is a terrible idea. For the exact points he mentions.
First thing they could do is actually fix our condition runes, which is screwing up a lot of condition builds. We still have outstanding bugs and they are letting more seep through the cracks. Necro’s have to be careful not to fall into a Stockholm Syndrome where we’ve been neglected so long, or bug ridden the point people begin to wear it as a badge of pride that they can perform alright by managing to overcome handicaps with a lot of dedication.
I love the Necro forums because it’s 80% Bas and Bhawb telling people they’re wrong.
I love the Necro forums because it’s 80% Bas and Bhawb telling people they’re wrong.
70% Bas and Bhawb telling people they are wrong
15% Bas and Bhawb being wrong or saying something good in a stupid way
10% Someone wanting guns and bows on necros
4% BoC stuff that noone reads
1% Funny puns with necrophilia or simmilar topics
I don’t/didn’t really get where y’all are talking about the devs saying “DS is used when low on health”, so I went and re-watched that section again.
Here’s the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zCUvIrH2BlU#t=3147s
Points to make:
1) DS now conforms to GW2’s definition of transform skills.
2) DS used to be the Necromancer down state
3) “…we wanted it to be skill of hitting it… you actually have to activate F1 if you were close to death, before if you went to 0 you would automatically kick into it…” No where is it implied you activate DS when low on health, but instead, if you happen to be, you must activate it (and balance the cooldown) specifically to enter DS, instead of having act as a down state, which is later described as broken, as you cannot stomp a player still running around (in DS).
4) They mention Axe specifically as “not so hot” and scepter “seen in some builds”, which by the way its said, tells me that axe based builds, and second to axe, scepter builds, should see some improvements, whereas all other weapons and “groups” of utilities are seen to be used often and effectively (is what I understand personally, so should see maybe some more impovements to axe, and possibly directly to scepter, if scepter isn’t addressed by some form of “condition build general” type fixes).On the subject of build diversity, I almost didn’t see it, but after a while of leveling my own necro, I can definitely see their point. Necros do have a lot of options in ways they can build, and I think (but won’t bother re-checking yet) they said similar things about Guardians, in that Guardians also have multiple options for builds, but moreso than the Necro, they have a bit of disparity between effectiveness of certain builds. Particularly when Altuistic Healing was “discovered”, AH became “the” build of the community per se. I’d like to see Guardians be able to have a more visibly appealing burn centered build, and a few improvements to their scepter, and I equate that standing to necros as well. Axe needs some love (though I don’t say this from personal experience) and scepter just slightly so. Other classes, be it Ele, War, Mez, spvp or pve, will generally have, as far as I see it, 1-3 builds that just so far outperform others at generalized focuses (or at every task at once) that there’s no reason to run anything else. Those classes pale in comparison to Necro foremost, because of their lack of sheer number of useful builds.
My take on all of this is that we should start seeing classes being balanced on a “necro level”, and getting more builds on a more even ground, eliminating outliers as best as can be done.
Ok I think here is what they were saying:
“In beta DS used to auto kick in after the necro was dead. That was obviously way too strong and way too easy. So we moved DS so it is like a transform skill that you have to use yourself just before you die. Now it is not too strong and not too easy.”
I will be a sad panda if that was the reason for the DS we see today. I am not even talking about balance here. Just the reasoning itself is pretty…..eh…..bad. Firstly manual DS is stronger than down state DS, so DS actually got improved. Secondly DS is the main necro mechanic right now. So what was necro’s mechanic during beta, when DS was “just” a downed state? What was Anet’s plan with the necro originally?
That change from “DS down state” to “DS main class mechanic” was huge. I think that decision was made too fast and too late that Anet didn’t have time to plan and test it properly. So in a way the necro class is still in beta testing. Even now Anet is not sure what to do with DS, and it shows.
As for your last point, I actually prefer that Anet buff Necro up. You cannot nerf thief dagger so much that people start using shortbow. This game doesn’t work that way. Shortbow is a rapid firing aoe weapon, totally different from the dagger.
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
I am sorry, but do these devs PLAY THEIR OWN GAME? build diversity? ok, so we have practically 2 builds that are based around dagger and wells, and a condition build. the rest are bull kitten. Who the F are these guys? I cannot believe they had the audacity to talk about minions that stand there and take a kitten while im fighting, and essentially limiting me to autoattack and skills 2-5. Don’t agree with anything they are saying. Attrition class? WHAT CLASS CANT GET AWAY FROM US? Lol, they are a joke in my head…. no one sticks around …. and what f-ing kill zone are they talking about? you mean if the opposing player sits in my wells and laugh/dodges away? is that what they are talking about?
Oh yeah, i can add crippled, but every class has so many variations to remove our condition based CC. Joke.
We have plenty of viable builds. As for unable to run away, I would agree if the game didn’t have any blink skills, but with things like RTL, shadowstep, and blink, unless you get a good DS 2 hit it is unlikely they aren’t getting away.
Two elementary observations from the segment with the “3 wise men” on the DS weapon swap “accidental change”.
Firstly, the hesitation and double takes they made around actually telling the truth about the change….and for them I hope they realise the world didn’t actually end when they told us the truth that the change was “coincidental”.
Secondly, although they were able to ex-post justify the change as being consistent with “transforms”, just how “accidental” that was and just how “seat-of-the-pants” the abilities implementations are…there does NOT seem to be any overall strategy guiding meaningful and INTENDED directions….just sheer coincidence….I really hope that is not the case.
I thought it was interesting they said it was brought more in line with transformations, yet realistically DS has very little in common with any other “transformation” besides that, and having different skill set.