As near as I can tell, the Greatsword and Reaper’s Shroud have pretty much the same set of skills except RS is a) quicker and b) mandatory. That is, you can’t have access to either of them unless you go Reaper, but if you go Reaper, why would you want to carry a Greatsword when you’re already forced to take basically the same skills as your profession mechanic?
Both have AoE damage.
Both have a strong defensive skill.
Both have a gap-closer.
Both have an execute.
Both have Chill.
Both have CC.
They each emphasize these slightly differently but you’re still using them for fundamentally the same things. It just has me scratching my head over why I should want to bring the Greatsword over Dagger/Warhorn to diversify my toolset, and when I do take the Greatsword, I never have the slightest idea of when I should be using Greatsword and when I should be using RS.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Rabid flaming?
Both have AoE damage.
Both have a strong defensive skill.
Both have a gap-closer.
Both have an execute.
Both have Chill.
Both have CC.
For PvP at least, those all seem like things I want a lot of. If I can get them from two sources, then all the better.
Well to put it bluntly you’re right (I personally think all classes should have access to their new weapons without traiting into the elite spec). But doubling up on good things is never a bad thing. My only complaint about GS is actually gravedigger. I just feel like there had to be a better answer to fix our mechanical problems than giving us a weapon where we spam 2 instead of 1. But perhaps in HoT and raids dps will not be the total king and utility based skills will have more importance.
For PvP at least, those all seem like things I want a lot of. If I can get them from two sources, then all the better.
Ok, but they’re two sources that you can’t access at the same time. D/W just seems to make more sense to me since you get reliable DPS and easy LF gain on 1, a ranged root on 3, an AoE Daze on 4, and AoE LF gain, Swiftness, and Cripple on 5 which follows you into RS. Yet I don’t want to write off the Greatsword without hearing more opinions about it.
If you enjoy the weapon, use it. If not, don’t. People may think (just as an example) you’re gimping your DPS by using GS and not dagger/x, and those are the types of people who create a hostile game environment. Whether it’s true or not, I like the look and feel of GS a hell of a lot more. Unless you’re trying to break a world record or you’ve wiped at the same spot 10 times in a row you don’t have the right to tell someone how to play their profession
Just a mini rant. Tldr GS is fun
Im hoping that when the next wave of elite specs comes around they will just make the weapons available on the core professions. And scrap the idea of exclusive weapons so we can actually mix new weapons together. You can have an elite spec tied to a weapon (for example having traits which improve it). But it shouldnt be the weapon is only usable with the elite spec. Obviously they will keep it as it is for now because it will help them sell the game.
Im hoping that when the next wave of elite specs comes around they will just make the weapons available on the core professions. And scrap the idea of exclusive weapons so we can actually mix new weapons together. You can have an elite spec tied to a weapon (for example having traits which improve it). But it shouldnt be the weapon is only usable with the elite spec. Obviously they will keep it as it is for now because it will help them sell the game.
Pretty much my exact viewpoint. They’re tying all these pve class fixes for our profession into a weapon and traitline you can only access by buying the xpac. Doesn’t affect me, I love this game and I bought it, but it does seem a little much. And havin GS limited to reaper only doesn’t really make sense imo
Im hoping that when the next wave of elite specs comes around they will just make the weapons available on the core professions. And scrap the idea of exclusive weapons so we can actually mix new weapons together. You can have an elite spec tied to a weapon (for example having traits which improve it). But it shouldnt be the weapon is only usable with the elite spec. Obviously they will keep it as it is for now because it will help them sell the game.
Pretty much my exact viewpoint. They’re tying all these pve class fixes for our profession into a weapon and traitline you can only access by buying the xpac. Doesn’t affect me, I love this game and I bought it, but it does seem a little much. And havin GS limited to reaper only doesn’t really make sense imo
I also agree. This was my first reaction. Ok, make different Shroud, but why can’t I use GS without Reaper specks?!? With all the weapons is the same right now. Why can we use the dagger without picking Blood Magic? Or Scepter without Curses…
If you enjoy the weapon, use it. If not, don’t. People may think (just as an example) you’re gimping your DPS by using GS and not dagger/x, and those are the types of people who create a hostile game environment. Whether it’s true or not, I like the look and feel of GS a hell of a lot more. Unless you’re trying to break a world record or you’ve wiped at the same spot 10 times in a row you don’t have the right to tell someone how to play their profession
Just a mini rant. Tldr GS is fun
I’m not knocking the Greatsword. I just don’t understand its mechanical purpose.
Im hoping that when the next wave of elite specs comes around they will just make the weapons available on the core professions. And scrap the idea of exclusive weapons so we can actually mix new weapons together. You can have an elite spec tied to a weapon (for example having traits which improve it). But it shouldnt be the weapon is only usable with the elite spec. Obviously they will keep it as it is for now because it will help them sell the game.
Eh, I get why they’re doing it this way: so they can continue to release new specs without worrying about so many unforeseen interactions. Like, let’s say we’re 10 years in the future and each profession has 5 Elite Specializations. When designing the 6th Spec, they don’t have to worry about synergies between the Necromancer’s mainhand Mace and offhand Sword leading to absurd Fear durations, even though both weapons are fine on their own.
They very well might remove traitline dependencies for weapons down the road, but they might also keep them as Blaine mentioned, especially if they mean to continually add new weapon options to new elite specs.
And along that line of thought, GS and Reaper do share a theme, which is awesome if you want to specialize in that theme. Yes they might have redundancies, but that gives you the option to choose to have said redundancy to really specialize and give you more options for the same goals, or you can simply use the Reaper Shroud and choose other weapons to round out your build.
Using both GS and RS is going to be my jam.
in high tier pvp gs wont be vailble , just to slow.
in high tier pvp gs wont be vailble , just to slow.
Everyone always said Warrior Hammer was too slow to ever be viable in PvP as well.
Never say never.
As near as I can tell, the Greatsword and Reaper’s Shroud have pretty much the same set of skills except RS is a) quicker and b) mandatory. That is, you can’t have access to either of them unless you go Reaper, but if you go Reaper, why would you want to carry a Greatsword when you’re already forced to take basically the same skills as your profession mechanic?
Both have AoE damage.
Both have a strong defensive skill.
Both have a gap-closer.
Both have an execute.
Both have Chill.
Both have CC.
They each emphasize these slightly differently but you’re still using them for fundamentally the same things. It just has me scratching my head over why I should want to bring the Greatsword over Dagger/Warhorn to diversify my toolset, and when I do take the Greatsword, I never have the slightest idea of when I should be using Greatsword and when I should be using RS.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Rabid flaming?
I think you’re being too general.
1) Both have AoE damage
Agreed
2) They both have very defensive skills.
Yes, under a big nominator they both have very defensive skills.
But that’s to general like I said. The difference between a pulsing blind field and a pulsing stability ability are quite large. You use them for different purposes.
3) Both have a gap closer.
IMO the gap closer from reaper shroud is better. But again here, the difference between a dash and a pull is significant when it comes to application and execution IMO.
4) Both have executes.
Somewhat, but they’re still both very different. Gravedigger is solid sub-50% execute as it is spammable. Executioner’s Scythe does a truckload of damage, but it’s utility (ice field and stun) also make it more than JUST and execute.
IMO they are both great finishers, but also both serve a different purpose. IMO Gravedigger is PvE wise amazeballs; whereas executioner’s scythe is nice but mostly there for the field. In PvP it’s almost the opposite.
5) Both have chill
True, but it’s a bit of the trademark of the whole traitline, which GS is a part of.
6) Both have CC
Mje… Wouldn’t really say the GS has proper CC myself.
So that’s being very general; like I said, the nominator might have the 2 things share a lot of perks, but the execution and application of those are completely different.
On top of that, they’re not mutually exclusive. Having a GS doesn’t overlap with having RS since you can’t use weapons in RS.
It’s not like you don’t need the execute in RS because you already have it on GS. You don’t always have the liberty to swap in and out of RS to access tools, as you might with weapons.
But you do raise somewhat of a good point. There ARE situations where bringing the GS is not all that smart.
I don’t really understand why ANet thought it was a good idea to force both reaper shroud and GS by going into a traitline.
That goes for all classes to be frank. I don’t see why the weapon and/or new class mechanic should be tied to a traitline, it really lowers the skill ceiling and dept of the game; plus it allows developpers to get away with weak/sloppy design in either of the 3 (mechanic / weapon / traits) without being forced to fix it since people still want to benefit from one of those 3 things.
Im hoping that when the next wave of elite specs comes around they will just make the weapons available on the core professions. And scrap the idea of exclusive weapons so we can actually mix new weapons together. You can have an elite spec tied to a weapon (for example having traits which improve it). But it shouldnt be the weapon is only usable with the elite spec. Obviously they will keep it as it is for now because it will help them sell the game.
Balance issues. Every new option they add that adds effective combinations to the game exponentially increases the number of combinations that all need to be relatively balanced. By keeping Elite specs entirely self-contained all they have to make sure is that each Elite spec adds the same on its own, and isn’t OP when combined with the current, limited base profession. But if you add in more weapons, each weapon not only has to be balanced with itself and the base profession, it has to be balanced against every other weapon they add, plus all the utility skills and traits added across elite specs. Its too much for them to reasonably track, same reason they won’t split skills unless they absolutely have to.
Just doing it for weapons isnt as difficult as doing it for everything though. And for the good of the game it needs to be done eventually. Whats the point in having diversity within a class if you cannot mix and match to a certain degree. I think its a poor excuse. Especially considering some classes severely lack good weapon choices on the base class. Which means this concept going forward does need to change at some point to create a fair playing field across the professions.
As i understood it the main reason for making weapons exclusive to elite specs was so they could fairly introduce one single weapon to each class without giving some classes a huge advantage due to gaining more weapon choices from a single addition. Once we have more elite specs and since they are adding elite specs with exclusive utilities that exclusivity on weapons is less important for keeping things fair. Its also less relevent for balance reasons. Weapons without the use of their tied elite spec should never be overpowered in the first place.
(edited by spoj.9672)
The more I think about it, the more I actually like locking new weapons to new elite specs. Giving everyone access to every permutation of everything they can use will reduce the number of meaningful decisions you have to make.
I also think diversity is extremely overrated when talked about on these forums. I would gladly sacrifice some diversity to have to think harder about trade-offs.
Its not just about diversity though. It means we will never be able to wield sword + shield etc etc. Because they will all be on separate elite specs. Eventually more and more players are going to speak up about this. Because most will want to use certain weapons together for various reasons. Not just for effectiveness. Not just for creating diverse solutions to problems. But also for roleplay reasons.
You may be against it now. But i suspect anet will cave in eventually when the masses start to follow this opinion. Also after several waves of elite specs are released the power creep will be pretty extensive anyway. So theres not really any point holding back when your community wants you to make things more fun by allowing them to mix things.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Guys, let’s try to get back on topic. There’s a lively debate to be had about whether restricting weapons to specific Elite Specs is a good idea or not, but I don’t want the thread to be closed over it. I’m just looking for guidelines on when to use the Greatsword and when to use Reaper’s Shroud. Normally I’m pretty good at feeling out fine distinctions, but in this case the distinction between the two (in terms of their 1-5 skills) is lost on me.
I think you’re being too general.
That’s possible. What is a specific situation where you would want both Reaper’s Shroud and a Greatsword, though? Where is that combination a better idea than, say, Dagger + Warhorn with Reaper’s Shroud?
On top of that, they’re not mutually exclusive. Having a GS doesn’t overlap with having RS since you can’t use weapons in RS.
Right… which is why they are mutually exclusive. You can’t use them both at the same time. At any given moment, you will be limited to one or the other’s skills. Yet is there any reason to use Greatsword other than a lack of Life Force?
Ok in general. RS is better when you lack buffs and maybe need the lifeforce for sustain. Its also more defensive. But greatsword is just pure plain and simple power. With a little utility in the form of blinds and a pull.
And with the raid encounter. The red guardian is only vulnerable to condition damage and life steal. So we could see wells + nightfall rotations and then the use of whirl and projectile finishers to lifesteal burst the red guardian down faster than everyone relying purely on condi. This is relevant because greatsword has nightfall which is an extra dark field on a 25 second cooldown and RS has a 30 second cooldown whirl.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Ok in general. RS is better when you lack buffs and maybe need the lifeforce for sustain. Its also more defensive. But greatsword is just pure plain and simple power. With a little utility in the form of blinds and a pull.
And with the raid encounter. The red guardian is only vulnerable to condition damage and life steal. So we could see wells + nightfall rotations and then the use of whirl and projectile finishers to lifesteal burst the red guardian down faster than everyone relying purely on condi. This is relevant because greatsword has nightfall which is an extra dark field on a 25 second cooldown and RS has a 30 second cooldown whirl.
Ok, so might a decent simplification be: use Greatsword primarily, but switch to RS the moment you need any damage mitigation?
And with the raid encounter. The red guardian is only vulnerable to condition damage and life steal. So we could see wells + nightfall rotations and then the use of whirl and projectile finishers to lifesteal burst the red guardian down faster than everyone relying purely on condi. This is relevant because greatsword has nightfall which is an extra dark field on a 25 second cooldown and RS has a 30 second cooldown whirl.
Hmm, ok. Is there a chance to switch builds between encounters?
Yes. The only time you get stuck in combat fully is on the main boss (has an arena that you get locked into). You can out of combat mid fight just by running away on the mini bosses.
You may be against it now. But i suspect anet will cave in eventually when the masses start to follow this opinion. Also after several waves of elite specs are released the power creep will be pretty extensive anyway. So theres not really any point holding back when your community wants you to make things more fun by allowing them to mix things.
I think the much better option would be for ANet to release new weapons completely not tied to elite specs to the core professions that need large holes filled. Keep the elite specs their own separate things with separate weapons, but over feature packs introduce a little bit more to the base professions, much like they added new heals in order to fill in small holes. This would have a much smaller effect, because there isn’t an exponential ramping, once the holes are filled they are filled, and ANet doesn’t have to worry about their 6th Elite spec having 300x more combinations than the one before it.
in high tier pvp gs wont be vailble , just to slow.
So where should I start? You can’t dodge forever. Dodging in 1on1s is really easy but in group fights, things start to get more distracting. OHHH! And you never ever want to stand on a point with one of these gs swinging maniacs on it. xD
Sure. It can’t replace something like dagger/focus but it is awesome in its own way.
Sure. It can’t replace something like dagger/focus but it is awesome in its own way.
In what way, specifically, does the Greatsword shine over RS? So far, the only answer I’ve gotten on this point is that they’re the same thing, except the Greatsword is slightly more offense-centric while RS is slightly more defense-centric. No one else has even attempted to formulate specific suggestions for how one should choose between how to use one or the other at any given moment.
No one else has even attempted to formulate specific suggestions for how one should choose between how to use one or the other at any given moment.
It really does feel like you’re getting too deep into the weeds here. I’m all about theorycrafting, but you’re really going to just need to get a feel for them.
Based on what little I know though, maybe you need to close distance with a Ranger shooting you from afar. Are you going to use GS’s pull? Probably not, because I don’t think the range is very good. However, you could close that gap with Reaper, and destroy projectiles to boot.
Need to pop pulsing Stability? Go into Reaper.
Want to pulse blind to turn around in a fight? Greatsword.
Need an AoE Fear to buy some time/space? Reaper.
Want to threaten large AoE burst damage/combo large AoE damage with your pull? Greatsword.
Need to buy time for your heal cooldown and absorb damage into LF? Reaper.
Want to set up a large stack of Vuln to combo into pressure? Greatsword.
Want to try for a sub-50 or sub-25% execute? Start with Reaper.
Did your Execute miss/get dodged? Drop into Greatsword and try again.
Need to leap or whirl through a frozen/darkness field you just dropped? Reaper.
I do think you’re thinking too high-level though if you’re trying to measure effectiveness based on general similarities. And you still get another weapon set along with the Greatsword, so any other gaps you want to fill you still can. Maybe you want to combo Dagger #3 into GS #2 to secure a burst, since everyone is talking about how GS is too slow to land anything (my Warrior Hammer bone is tingling from 2.5 years ago). Maybe you want the utility of Staff to supplement. Maybe you want a Scepter for the AoE cripple/condi pressure (if you’re doing some hybrid jazz or something), along with whatever off-hand you want to bring (such as a Dagger for the AoE weakness on #5, and the potential bouncing blind/condi transfer on #4).
The only thing they really share is cleaving AoE damage, so you use them if you need what they give.
Use Greatsword if:
Enemy is downed or under 50% and you want max DPS
Want to build Lifeforce
Want to burst stack vuln quickly before a hit
Enemy is using some kind of “over time burst” like Rampage or Lich (Nightfall)
Need to pull an enemy/group of enemies for a followup attack/AoE
Need any of the fields/finishers it brings
Use Reaper’s Shroud if:
You need anything related to Shroud, including the HP or any Shroud traits
To proc weapon swap without putting your currently equipped weapon away
Need stability, usually when you are getting chain CCed or someone has put you in a ring CC you need to escape
Want to gap close
Want AoE poison
Want single target stun/nuke
Need the fields/finishers of RS
TL;DR use the one that you need the utility from, they have almost no overlapping real utility beyond both having whirls and AoE damage.
I thought the same thing Blaine. I dumped the GS pretty soon afterwards, back to d/w or f. I get things with my weapon skills I dont have with RS which allows me to rotate through as needed. With the GS/RS combo there isn’t much distinction or diversity. I speak entirely from a pvp/wvw point of view.
The biggest factor is availability, IMO.
Greatsword is always available for you to use, 100% of the time (barring weapon swap cooldowns). You can’t be knocked out of it by taking damage or simply through passing time, you don’t need to save it for situations when you need defensive mitigation, you don’t need to pre-build any resources to use it.
I think the simple answer is that it further encourages others to buy the expansion.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.