Guild Wars 2

For many necromancers, Death Shroud is hugely underwhelming because of its vulnerability and lack of utility. As an example of what would address this (in my opinion), I’ve thrown together a quick bar using existing skills as a starting point:

1. Life Blast
2. Dark Path
3. Doom
4. Dark Water (renamed for use on land)
5. Tainted Shackles
6. Life Transfer
7. Haunt (ground-targeted, 0.25s cast time, 40s cooldown)
8. Gathering Plague (600 range)
9. Grim Specter (2 boons from foes, 3 condis from self and none from allies)
10. Reaper of Grenth (renamed, additionally applies Retaliation to self every 3s, ends when leaving Death Shroud)

Now this might appear slightly OP, but everything in this bar is dependent on Life Force and thus is subject to denial. This is already the rationale for powerful Revenant skills, so it should apply universally, right?

… right?

No way. Sounds too fun. Also, I’d rather GS remove 2 acondies from self and allies. Could be a neat way to add a little tad bit of support and minion support on demand.

I’d love it. But it won’t happen, don’t even start dreaming. If they did this they would very well over compensate with base-line nerfs elsewhere. Just look at the mess Tainted Shackles and Dhuumfire caused.

How about just allowing us to have our utilities while in DS. Let’s stop treating it like an entirely different form, and more like a weapon swap.

Bhawb.7408:

How about just allowing us to have our utilities while in DS. Let’s stop treating it like an entirely different form, and more like a weapon swap.

Or this… One or the other.

OR, just for fairness sake… Make Kits hide utilities on Engineer and make them drop kit to pick another. See how long it lasts there. Then someone might have some sympathy for us. :P

That said. I’d still like… all of those moves up there… T_T

I would love them too, although I think there are other ways to open up skills like them to us, and DS isn’t necessary for that.

At first I thought that it would be nice to add new skills for 6-10, but after a bit of musing around, I changed my assessment.

I would much rather have access to my utilities in DS.

That way, signets cease being broken, minions are still able to have their active abilities used, we can activate consume condition in DS to give us a condi removal (and a heal after they give us healing through DS), etc.

It would allow for a lot more skillful play than the current iteration does.

Malchior.1928:

At first I thought that it would be nice to add new skills for 6-10, but after a bit of musing around, I changed my assessment.

I would much rather have access to my utilities in DS.

That way, signets cease being broken, minions are still able to have their active abilities used, we can activate consume condition in DS to give us a condi removal (and a heal after they give us healing through DS), etc.

It would allow for a lot more skillful play than the current iteration does.

You know, actually… I wouldn’t mind being able to resummon my minions with their 10 hour cast times while in DS after being moa’d…

Bhawb.7408:

How about just allowing us to have our utilities while in DS. Let’s stop treating it like an entirely different form, and more like a weapon swap.

I like this idea in theory, but it creates the potential for unforeseen consequences that it seems ANet isn’t willing to spend resources on controlling e.g. Signet of the Locust or Signet of Undeath.

By fully locking down the skill bar, ANet have a far greater chance of balancing it correctly, and possibly even allowing it to feel a little OP by tweaking LF gain as required.

I realise that, regrettably, controlling minions in DS would still be impossible with this approach, but you could still benefit from the added versatility.

process execution.8014:

Bhawb.7408:

How about just allowing us to have our utilities while in DS. Let’s stop treating it like an entirely different form, and more like a weapon swap.

I like this idea in theory, but it creates the potential for unforeseen consequences that it seems ANet isn’t willing to spend resources on controlling e.g. Signet of the Locust or Signet of Undeath.

By fully locking down the skill bar, ANet have a far greater chance of balancing it correctly, and possibly even allowing it to feel a little OP by tweaking LF gain as required.

I realise that, regrettably, controlling minions in DS would still be impossible with this approach, but you could still benefit from the added versatility.

Your argument does not seem logical.

“unforeseen consequences that it seems ANet isn’t willing to spend resources on controlling e.g. Signet of the Locust or Signet of Undeath.”

I’m giving up a utility slot to take each one of them. why should they only work their passive 50% of the time.

Malchior.1928:

Your argument does not seem logical.

“unforeseen consequences that it seems ANet isn’t willing to spend resources on controlling e.g. Signet of the Locust or Signet of Undeath.”

I’m giving up a utility slot to take each one of them. why should they only work their passive 50% of the time.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea (in fact I said I like the idea), I’m simply being realistic based on ANet’s past actions. It’s clear that ANet is worried that Death Shroud has the potential to turn necromancers into unkillable juggernauts, and they severely restrict its interactions with base game mechanics accordingly.

Whether or not this fear is justified or not is another topic. What I am suggesting is a compromise; a way for ANet to give us the utility and survivability we need from DS while still retaining a high degree of control over the form.

I want to be able to resummon my 1.5 second cast minions in DS </3 T_T

Also, the problem with utilities is they’d still need to lock #6, even if we could heal in DS. I really don’t think people should be able to use their standard heal in DS. It just seems a little risky…

process execution.8014:

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea (in fact I said I like the idea), I’m simply being realistic based on ANet’s past actions. It’s clear that ANet is worried that Death Shroud has the potential to turn necromancers into unkillable juggernauts, and they severely restrict its interactions with base game mechanics accordingly.

Whether or not this fear is justified or not is another topic. What I am suggesting is a compromise; a way for ANet to give us the utility and survivability we need from DS while still retaining a high degree of control over the form.

If we want to talk about being realistic:

7 out of 8 professions have defenses that scale. That is, the time they survive 1v1 and 1vX will be the same.

Necro is the only one where this is not the case.

1v8 kills a necro 8 times faster than 1v1.

Regardless of whether or not someone can use their utilities in deathshroud or get 3% life force per 3 seconds due to Signet of Undeath, that will NOT in any way, make the necro “an unkillable juggernaut”.

3% life force is equivalent to about 400 damage. An auto attack 1/2 second cast time) from someone in full nomad’s armor does more than that.

In the time it takes to get 3% life force (3 sec), the nomad user has done 2400 damage to you.

That is a net 2000 damage loss on the part of the necro.

I do not believe your argument is a sound enough reason to argue against necromancer getting internal synergy.

A class mechanic should not hinder the class.

ronpierce.2760:

I want to be able to resummon my 1.5 second cast minions in DS </3 T_T

Also, the problem with utilities is they’d still need to lock #6, even if we could heal in DS. I really don’t think people should be able to use their standard heal in DS. It just seems a little risky…

Interrupts would still stop it. There is counterplay. Warriors get to have healing signet tick while immune to damage and condis.

What seems to be the problem?

Malchior.1928:

ronpierce.2760:

I want to be able to resummon my 1.5 second cast minions in DS </3 T_T

Also, the problem with utilities is they’d still need to lock #6, even if we could heal in DS. I really don’t think people should be able to use their standard heal in DS. It just seems a little risky…

Interrupts would still stop it. There is counterplay. Warriors get to have healing signet tick while immune to damage and condis.

What seems to be the problem?

I just think it’s a big step ANet isn’t ready for. And frankly, I think I could see it being a little strong with Foot in the Grave as it’s like “NOPE, I’m healing right now!” Seems a tad too useful. Not saying i wouldn’t love it, just cautious. I’m so afraid of Necro being OP because of the last time that happened they nerfed EVERYTHING and did very little to revert it when they nerfed Dhuumfire down.

Everything got nerfed because of it… o.o

ronpierce.2760:

Malchior.1928:

ronpierce.2760:

I want to be able to resummon my 1.5 second cast minions in DS </3 T_T

Also, the problem with utilities is they’d still need to lock #6, even if we could heal in DS. I really don’t think people should be able to use their standard heal in DS. It just seems a little risky…

Interrupts would still stop it. There is counterplay. Warriors get to have healing signet tick while immune to damage and condis.

What seems to be the problem?

I just think it’s a big step ANet isn’t ready for. And frankly, I think I could see it being a little strong with Foot in the Grave as it’s like “NOPE, I’m healing right now!” Seems a tad too useful. Not saying i wouldn’t love it, just cautious. I’m so afraid of Necro being OP because of the last time that happened they nerfed EVERYTHING and did very little to revert it when they nerfed Dhuumfire down.

Everything got nerfed because of it… o.o

It seems to me that you’re against this progressive suggestion out of fear.
I don’t think that that is proper justification for dismissing 6 usage while in DS.

As necros, we have drawn the short straw from the start. I guess we might even think it’s op to be able to heal while in ds. But really, we’re just lacking perspective, as all we’ve ever known is NO UTILITIES IN DEATHSHROUD. NO HEALING IN DEATHSHROUD.

I say we step past that. And balance it after we take a step in the right direction.

#NecromancerEqualityPlease.

Would be great, but the fear is legitimate. They completely f***ed staff last time they “rebalanced”… I’m not sure how much more of their rebalancing Necromancer can realisticlsly handle… The dice are always in their hands.

At this point, I want to be able to heal in deathshroud, I want to be able to use utilities in deathshroud, and given our lack of mobility or escapes, I think that this is fair.

We are deathlords. We have had our lows (META downstate builds), now let us make room for skillful play. Where’s the skillcap that arenaNet first attributed to us near launch?

Bring it back.

Malchior.1928:

I do not believe your argument is a sound enough reason to argue against necromancer getting internal synergy.

You don’t seem to understand, or perhaps you’re not reading my posts properly. It is not my argument; I agree with you! I am simply inferring ANet’s position based on their actions and offering a compromise.

Personally, I think their fears are remnants from beta feedback that are no longer relevant 3 years into the game. Yet here we are.

I’d rather have something than nothing, and I’d wager that a locked-down bar is a more appealing solution to ANet than enabling 6-0 as is.

Let me rephrase that: “I do not believe ArenaNet’sPerceivedArgument is a sound enough reason to argue against necromancer getting internal synergy.”

:)

Let’s not internalize their fears and enable them. Prof. Mechanic SYNERGYYY!!!

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Malchior.1928:

I do not believe your argument is a sound enough reason to argue against necromancer getting internal synergy.

You don’t seem to understand, or perhaps you’re not reading my posts properly. It is not my argument; I agree with you! I am simply inferring ANet’s position based on their actions and offering a compromise.

Personally, I think their fears are remnants from beta feedback that are no longer relevant 3 years into the game. Yet here we are.

I’d rather have something than nothing, and I’d wager that a locked-down bar is a more appealing solution to ANet than enabling 6-0 as is.

Might not be though. We already have access to those skills and their cool downs would persist through DS. That, along with the fact that spectral skills actually last through DS now, it really wouldn’t make THAT huge of a difference. (spectrals being the initial problem.)

Where as, 6 new abilities would be a flat buff across the board and have a disassociated cool down from normal utilities. I find it’d be harder to balance.

The main reason I’m in support of your idea is that i’d love many of those skills… But at the same time, I’d adore being able to spawn my creatures while getting hammered for the next 6 seconds lol.

ronpierce.2760:

Might not be though. We already have access to those skills and their cool downs would persist through DS. That, along with the fact that spectral skills actually last through DS now, it really wouldn’t make THAT huge of a difference. (spectrals being the initial problem.)

Where as, 6 new abilities would be a flat buff across the board and have a disassociated cool down from normal utilities. I find it’d be harder to balance.

The main reason I’m in support of your idea is that i’d love many of those skills… But at the same time, I’d adore being able to spawn my creatures while getting hammered for the next 6 seconds lol.

I think that a flat buff is acceptable given that what I’m proposing only buffs the areas where we’re underpowered (well, that’s the intent anyway). And locking it all away behind DS means that ANet can give us things they normally don’t like for necro (e.g. ground-targeted teleport or even invulns) because it offers counter-play through LF denial.

process execution.8014:

I think that a flat buff is acceptable given that what I’m proposing only buffs the areas where we’re underpowered (well, that’s the intent anyway). And locking it all away behind DS means that ANet can give us things they normally don’t like for necro (e.g. ground-targeted teleport or even invulns) because it offers counter-play through LF denial.

I think we are “underpowered” partially due to not having access to our utilities in DS. I’m not necessarily against having new 6-10 skills in the DS bar, however, I think a more flexible option that does adress our weaknesses would be to just let us use our utilities for slots 6-10.

Then we still have a heal, a condi cleanse, and any of the utilities we choose. It renders DS more flexible in that it stops limiting us unjustly.

That appears to be more utility than what we get from the proposed changes.

You know what change would actually fix everything in due time? A-Net hiring a kittening Necromancer main for the kittening balance team. Or A-Net actually listening to players. Both very viable changes that would lead to a better balanced future.

Ooo, oo. Hire me and Bhawb. We’ll fix it! #RonWillFixIt. :P

Just kidding. I have too many grudges against Mesmer (moa) and Engineer (constant love and attention) to be unbiased with power. I can give unbiased opinions and suggestions, but controlling the switches. I don’t trust me. :P

ronpierce.2760:

Ooo, oo. Hire me and Bhawb. We’ll fix it! #RonWillFixIt. :P

Just kidding. I have too many grudges against Mesmer (moa) and Engineer (constant love and attention) to be unbiased with power. I can give unbiased opinions and suggestions, but controlling the switches. I don’t trust me. :P

Which is exactly why a Necro main needs to be in on it – cause balance team has a few Warrior, Ele, and Guardian-Mains, and not a single Necro main. Guess what classes are awesome and sought after, and guess which one sucks? There just is nobody giving a rats kitten about Necro among the balance-team, so naturally flaws, bugs and problems don’t really appear on their radar, while other stuff on their constantly played professions gets found and sorted out more quickly. And of course some bias is always mixed in. Preferably there should be the same amount of people maining each profession on the team.

Shiki.7148:

ronpierce.2760:

Ooo, oo. Hire me and Bhawb. We’ll fix it! #RonWillFixIt. :P

Just kidding. I have too many grudges against Mesmer (moa) and Engineer (constant love and attention) to be unbiased with power. I can give unbiased opinions and suggestions, but controlling the switches. I don’t trust me. :P

Which is exactly why a Necro main needs to be in on it – cause balance team has a few Warrior, Ele, and Guardian-Mains, and not a single Necro main. Guess what classes are awesome and sought after, and guess which one sucks? There just is nobody giving a rats kitten about Necro among the balance-team, so naturally flaws, bugs and problems don’t really appear on their radar, while other stuff on their constantly played professions gets found and sorted out more quickly. And of course some bias is always mixed in. Preferably there should be the same amount of people maining each profession on the team.

You forgot Engineer. -heavy breathing intensifies-

Signet of Spite working with Life Blast. drools

I do think utility skills should work in Death Shroud. I think it’s the most logical avenue for solving the issue of effectiveness for a supposed alternative form with an alternative resource used as a damage soak.

The only thing they’d have to watch for is activations on skills like Signet of the Locust, where they heal you… and it probably wouldn’t work in Death Shroud. Of course, they could also just make healing work in DS, but that’s a whole other can o’ worms.

Just allow our own healing through death shroud, and enable our 6-0 skills. There is a legitimate argument against allowing allied healing while in DS, but I see no good reason that Necro is the only profession that can’t heal itself while using defensive abilities.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The only thing they’d have to watch for is activations on skills like Signet of the Locust, where they heal you… and it probably wouldn’t work in Death Shroud.

They could just add an additional caveat to these skills that says something like ‘While in DS this doesn’t heal’. Or ‘While in DS this restores X% of percentage of life force’ instead of a heal.

xgalaxy.7402:

Rising Dusk.2408:

The only thing they’d have to watch for is activations on skills like Signet of the Locust, where they heal you… and it probably wouldn’t work in Death Shroud.

They could just add an additional caveat to these skills that says something like ‘While in DS this doesn’t heal’. Or ‘While in DS this restores X% of percentage of life force’ instead of a heal.

Guys, don’t complicate things. No caveats.

1. Give us healing through deathshroud.
2. Give us utilities in deathshroud.
3. Balance as necessary.

These three steps will get rid of the asynergy currently present between healing, leeching, deathshroud, our defenses and utilities.

Numbers can be tweaked later, but we NEED to stop BLOCKING our own skills and traits.

Why should both ds and our utilities only be usable in complementary distribution?
We are not super man, we are necromancers. NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS DESIGN OVERSIGHT.

We should always be able to access our utilities,
And our mechanic should only be limited to lifeforce, and its internal cooldown.

Malchior.1928:

xgalaxy.7402:

Rising Dusk.2408:

The only thing they’d have to watch for is activations on skills like Signet of the Locust, where they heal you… and it probably wouldn’t work in Death Shroud.

They could just add an additional caveat to these skills that says something like ‘While in DS this doesn’t heal’. Or ‘While in DS this restores X% of percentage of life force’ instead of a heal.

Guys, don’t complicate things. No caveats.

1. Give us healing through deathshroud.
2. Give us utilities in deathshroud.
3. Balance as necessary.

These three steps will get rid of the asynergy currently present between healing, leeching, deathshroud, our defenses and utilities.

Numbers can be tweaked later, but we NEED to stop BLOCKING our own skills and traits.

Why should both ds and our utilities only be usable in complementary distribution?
We are not super man, we are necromancers. NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS DESIGN OVERSIGHT.

We should always be able to access our utilities,
And our mechanic should only be limited to lifeforce, and its internal cooldown.

I agree with this. I think we need to get down to the basics, then we can branch out. But before anything, we should by a properly functioning class. Additional balance, design and niches can be assigned after that.

If were gonna slap more skills in DS how about some which are actually useful instead of more useless stuff. Like active defence skills?

spoj.9672:

If were gonna slap more skills in DS how about some which are actually useful instead of more useless stuff. Like active defence skills?

A teleport is not useless.

spoj.9672:

If were gonna slap more skills in DS how about some which are actually useful instead of more useless stuff. Like active defence skills?

Spoj, are you referring to the above proposal by OP or by the introduction of utility skill usage while in DS ?

ronpierce.2760:

spoj.9672:

If were gonna slap more skills in DS how about some which are actually useful instead of more useless stuff. Like active defence skills?

A teleport is not useless.

And if we were to get a teleport, it would probably be dark path being reverted to ground targeted, however I think that this in itself is unlikely.

I was referring to the OP’s suggestions. But that also goes for utility skills. We dont have any active defence on utility skills. So that becomes a useless addition aswell.

You know sometimes I think ANet is just afraid that if they buff Death Shroud or change it in such a way that we’re able to use our utilities while in it, we won’t be killable 1v1. Of course Death Shroud would still scale poorly and versus multiple players we’d be toast but it’s funny how it’s almost like they don’t want us to be an unwinnable match 1v1 meanwhile Gw2 is a group oriented game and the majority of their decisions have shown that to be the case. So why does it really matter if we suddenly ascend to duelist godhood? So we have a ridiculous amount of health and sustain… Maybe it’d give us a better purpose such as bunkering points in PvP or solo roamers in WvW (which is currently a risky hobby).

I would give up the whole DS (including all 5 skills) if they give us 3 seconds of blocking and using up 100% of the LF.

I think best thing would be to add skills to DS. They can better gauge/control the Necro (OP or NOT) and still improve the things that we are lacking (good disengage/Mobility) and maybe add a few things in that they feel would make DS feel better.

Bhawb.7408:

Just allow our own healing through death shroud, and enable our 6-0 skills. There is a legitimate argument against allowing allied healing while in DS, but I see no good reason that Necro is the only profession that can’t heal itself while using defensive abilities.

And change DS so it scales in some way or form with 1vX scenarios.

Eh I’d prefer if they got rid of death shroud & gave the necro F1-F5 skills that consumed life force.

F1: Life Blast. (consume X life force to blast the enemy with energy & bleed them 1 stack for 5 seconds. While casting damage is reduced by Y%) Cast time 1/2 second (get rid of the range difference in damage).

F2: Doom. (Consume X life force to inflict fear 2s & torment 3 stacks for 6 seconds on your enemy) Instant cast.

F3: Transfusion (Consume X life force to heal yourself for Y while damaging & applying bleed to enemies with each pulse) Channeled. Can be traited to heal nearby allies with each pulse.

F4: Dark Path (Consume X life force to teleport to the targeted Area. Apply AOE Chill, blind & bleed 3 stacks for 5 seconds upon landing) 1/2 second cast time.

F5: Shadow Armor (Consume X life force per second to absorb incoming attacks) Channeled ability. Can be traited to grant protection to allies while channeled at the cost of increased life force cost)

After that just adjust the cool downs & damage where needed.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Eh I’d prefer if they got rid of death shroud & gave the necro F1-F5 skills that consumed life force.

F1: Life Blast. (consume X life force to blast the enemy with energy & bleed them 1 stack for 5 seconds. While casting damage is reduced by Y%) Cast time 1/2 second (get rid of the range difference in damage).

F2: Doom. (Consume X life force to inflict fear 2s & torment 3 stacks for 6 seconds on your enemy) Instant cast.

F3: Transfusion (Consume X life force to heal yourself for Y while damaging & applying bleed to enemies with each pulse) Channeled. Can be traited to heal nearby allies with each pulse.

F4: Dark Path (Consume X life force to teleport to the targeted Area. Apply AOE Chill, blind & bleed 3 stacks for 5 seconds upon landing) 1/2 second cast time.

F5: Shadow Armor (Consume X life force per second to absorb incoming attacks) Channeled ability. Can be traited to grant protection to allies while channeled at the cost of increased life force cost)

After that just adjust the cool downs & damage where needed.

That’d be cool too… just that, sadly, they will never do this.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Eh I’d prefer if they got rid of death shroud & gave the necro F1-F5 skills that consumed life force.

F1: Life Blast. (consume X life force to blast the enemy with energy & bleed them 1 stack for 5 seconds. While casting damage is reduced by Y%) Cast time 1/2 second (get rid of the range difference in damage).

F2: Doom. (Consume X life force to inflict fear 2s & torment 3 stacks for 6 seconds on your enemy) Instant cast.

F3: Transfusion (Consume X life force to heal yourself for Y while damaging & applying bleed to enemies with each pulse) Channeled. Can be traited to heal nearby allies with each pulse.

F4: Dark Path (Consume X life force to teleport to the targeted Area. Apply AOE Chill, blind & bleed 3 stacks for 5 seconds upon landing) 1/2 second cast time.

F5: Shadow Armor (Consume X life force per second to absorb incoming attacks) Channeled ability. Can be traited to grant protection to allies while channeled at the cost of increased life force cost)

After that just adjust the cool downs & damage where needed.

Im not against this. Would be a huge rework thought. Necro would definitely play differently. Im having a hard time imagining Necro with no DS lol.

ronpierce.2760:

Bhawb.7408:

How about just allowing us to have our utilities while in DS. Let’s stop treating it like an entirely different form, and more like a weapon swap.

Or this… One or the other.

OR, just for fairness sake… Make Kits hide utilities on Engineer and make them drop kit to pick another. See how long it lasts there. Then someone might have some sympathy for us. :P

That said. I’d still like… all of those moves up there… T_T

Our kits ARE our utilities ._. Besides, Don’t compare DS wiht others utilities, instead compare to other profs. f-skills. Personally I feel like DS should give the encro utilities new functionalities.

I.E heal while in DS could give a boost to Life force rather than healing and stuff like that

Shiki.7148:

And change DS so it scales in some way or form with 1vX scenarios.

Just have scaing LF gain and something like evade/invuln or similar and its easy to go.