Guild Wars 2

Hello,

First of all let me say I am excited about the changes to necro!! Boon corruption was what i loved about necro since day 1 and is one of the main reasons that I mained a necro since launch.
Another reason I love necro is condition manipulation.
Which brings me to the following suggestion:

• move Unholy Martyr to Death Magic and move Unholy Sanctuary to Blood Magic

My reasoning is to have Unholy Martyr in the same line as Shrouded Removal for better synergy and more efficient condition mainpulation.
If we could get a trait that adds condition transfer on Life Blast similar to its underwater version that would be amazing!

Also I think that it will bring more balance to both trait lines since they both get 1 grandmaster trait for a specific skill type (minions/wells), 1 trait for group support (condi transfer / area healing) and 1 trait for self sustain.
I like how other trait lines have grandmaster traits that fit separate purposes (eg Soul Reaping gives a choice among condtion dmg/direct dmg/defence)

I d like to know what the rest of the community thinks and I believe that since this is a small and simple change it could be something that we may see in the future.

It is a good idea, unholy sanctuary has nice synergy with last rites and life from death.

Fine with the idea of moving Unholy Sanctuary to BM (though I’d really prefer a reverse Altruistic Healing that is based on conditions applied to enemies), disagree with doing anything except deleting Unholy Martyr. Its just not a particularly compelling trait, and Death Magic doesn’t have anything in it that points to it wanting a supportive GM; it really needs an anti-burst GM.

Unholy sanctuary in BM would make sense. Unholy Martyr is just bad. Not only is it not that good, but it is also incredibly boring because it is completely passive. I’d like to see it changed to remove conditions or convert conditions to boons on allies on shroud skill five use. Then we might see some necro bunker builds in the meta.

First of I agree that Unholy Marty is just bad, but I dont have high hopes for significant trait reworks thats why i kept my suggestion as simple as possible.

Making this trait less passive would be great and immediately the underwater version of DS comes to mind. Drawing conditions from allies with DS 4 and sending them to foes with DS 1 is something that I wanted to see for years in ground combat.

I m not sure whether a reverse altruistic healing rework that was mentioned is a good thing. As a concept it sounds like a merge of corrupters fervor and parasitic contagion and i dont think something like that should take the spot of another trait.
Perhaps if it was based on boons corrupted and/or condtions transfered it would be more fiting to necro and more in line with the added boon corruption in our traits/weapon skills.

The idea of an anti-burst trait is be great and i think we really need it and I d like to know how u think it should be implemented. I cant think of anything interesting right now for this.

Unholy Martyr needs something like gaining a stack of might for each condition transferred. I do like the swap idea.

Bhawb.7408:

Fine with the idea of moving Unholy Sanctuary to BM (though I’d really prefer a reverse Altruistic Healing that is based on conditions applied to enemies), disagree with doing anything except deleting Unholy Martyr. Its just not a particularly compelling trait, and Death Magic doesn’t have anything in it that points to it wanting a supportive GM; it really needs an anti-burst GM.

Your idea+Epidemic= god mode.

Unholy Martyr, if they add small heal through Shroud when condition is transferred, it will be much more useful support trait.
Also it should transfer 1 condition from every ally in range every time.

Unholy Martyr is just bad concept for a trait and has no synergy with either Shroud. The only Shroud it has synergy with is avalible underwater…

Remove it and give some damage/self-surv option. I’d personally like Quickness trait there which could synergize with Reaper Greatsword in some way to speed up that kitten weapon. Quickness also goes well with life steals.

I think it should stay a supportive trait.

What if it caused a small AoE heal around you whenever you are hit in Shroud, no ICD? That way it stays in theme with DM being the minion line since it can be used for healing minions while also providing some nice support for allies.

Aktium.9506:

I think it should stay a supportive trait.

What if it caused a small AoE heal around you whenever you are hit in Shroud, no ICD? That way it stays in theme with DM being the minion line since it can be used for healing minions while also providing some nice support for allies.

I’m not really a fan of this, death magic centers more around defense and is already restricted by haing 3 minion traits. Especially considering how many types of defenses there are. I would like a an anti-burst in DM with this being my favorite: “Rest in peace: when entering shroud your life force will not decrease for 2 seconds. Exit shroud’s cooldown is increased by 2 seconds.” .

Tim.6450:

I’m not really a fan of this, death magic centers more around defense and is already restricted by haing 3 minion traits. Especially considering how many types of defenses there are.

Well I was thinking of traits like Putrid Defense and Reaper’s Protection in the same line which sort of promote being hit, the trait wouldn’t be any more of a minion trait than Transfusion.

Tim.6450:

I would like a an anti-burst in DM with this being my favorite: “Rest in peace: when entering shroud your life force will not decrease for 2 seconds. Exit shroud’s cooldown is increased by 2 seconds.” .

This is far too strong. Having iframes on shroud like that without a 1min+ icd would be incredibly broken. Maybe if it was Blocking since that has counterplay.

Aktium.9506:

Tim.6450:

I’m not really a fan of this, death magic centers more around defense and is already restricted by haing 3 minion traits. Especially considering how many types of defenses there are.

Well I was thinking of traits like Putrid Defense and Reaper’s Protection in the same line which sort of promote being hit, the trait wouldn’t be any more of a minion trait than Transfusion.

First these traits do not promote getting hit, they merely accept getting hit as the fate of the necromancer and try to reduce its impact. A trait that promotes hitting is radiant revival. Second the point I was making was not that we don’t need another minion boosting trait but that we don’t need another non-defense trait in DM.

Aktium.9506:

Tim.6450:

I would like a an anti-burst in DM with this being my favorite: “Rest in peace: when entering shroud your life force will not decrease for 2 seconds. Exit shroud’s cooldown is increased by 2 seconds.” .

This is far too strong. Having iframes on shroud like that without a 1min+ icd would be incredibly broken. Maybe if it was Blocking since that has counterplay.

Why is it OP? a lot of classes have high amount of Iframes which includes thief, revenant,rangers and mesmers (i’m talking about evades here). Also this trait is still lower then an Iframe since conditions can be still applied, stuns can be done,… . Making it a block could even be considered a buf. Also the trait gets less effective the longer you stay in DS which is a nice trade off.

Tim.6450:

I’m not really a fan of this, death magic centers more around defense and is already restricted by haing 3 minion traits. Especially considering how many types of defenses there are. I would like a an anti-burst in DM with this being my favorite: “Rest in peace: when entering shroud your life force will not decrease for 2 seconds. Exit shroud’s cooldown is increased by 2 seconds.” .

Basically, Unholy Sanctuary is an anti-burst-trait, don’t you think so? The enemy isn’t able to down you a single time, cause if he would, you get in shroud and while you are in it you regenerate health.

Or what is your definition of an anti-burst-trait?

Tim.6450:

First these traits do not promote getting hit, they merely accept getting hit as the fate of the necromancer and try to reduce its impact. A trait that promotes hitting is radiant revival. Second the point I was making was not that we don’t need another minion boosting trait but that we don’t need another non-defense trait in DM.

Well I said “sort of promote getting hit”, ideally you should avoid getting hit by stuff in general, but the traits are made with the assumption that you will in fact be getting hit.

Tim.6450:

Why is it OP? a lot of classes have high amount of Iframes which includes thief, revenant,rangers and mesmers (i’m talking about evades here). Also this trait is still lower then an Iframe since conditions can be still applied, stuns can be done,… . Making it a block could even be considered a buf. Also the trait gets less effective the longer you stay in DS which is a nice trade off.

As much as I dislike equating Shroud to an actual healthbar, we do have 30-50k effective HP in most builds. A potential 2s damage negation every 10/12s on top of our natural bulk is ridiculous.

I do think Necro needs a skill or trait that gives actual damage negation, but it should never be anything even remotely spammy.

Kodama.6453:

Tim.6450:

I’m not really a fan of this, death magic centers more around defense and is already restricted by haing 3 minion traits. Especially considering how many types of defenses there are. I would like a an anti-burst in DM with this being my favorite: “Rest in peace: when entering shroud your life force will not decrease for 2 seconds. Exit shroud’s cooldown is increased by 2 seconds.” .

Basically, Unholy Sanctuary is an anti-burst-trait, don’t you think so? The enemy isn’t able to down you a single time, cause if he would, you get in shroud and while you are in it you regenerate health.

Or what is your definition of an anti-burst-trait?

An anti-burst trait is a trait that can deal with a huge amount of damage in a short time frame without putting you in a disadvantegous situation for taking those hits. Unholy sanctuary is certainly not an anti-burst because only the killing blow is stopped, a lot of bursts come from multple hits (like shatter burst), making a big part of the burst come through. The damage not only lowered your life forces it also lowers the amount you can heal up.

Aktium.9506:

Tim.6450:

Why is it OP? a lot of classes have high amount of Iframes which includes thief, revenant,rangers and mesmers (i’m talking about evades here). Also this trait is still lower then an Iframe since conditions can be still applied, stuns can be done,… . Making it a block could even be considered a buf. Also the trait gets less effective the longer you stay in DS which is a nice trade off.

As much as I dislike equating Shroud to an actual healthbar, we do have 30-50k effective HP in most builds. A potential 2s damage negation every 10/12s on top of our natural bulk is ridiculous.

I do think Necro needs a skill or trait that gives actual damage negation, but it should never be anything even remotely spammy.

That’s the thing with this trait, the statement "2s damage negation every 10/12s on top of our natural bulk " is not true by coupling the damage negation through the shroud, well unless you get bursted so hard that your 30K shroud is evaporated (which would the situation this trait should work against anyway). The more life force you amass the longer the effective cooldown your damage negation will have so our shroud bulk is working against the trait. It’s not like while a lot of other traits/skills where using one of the defensive effects helps you cross the gap to the other defensive effect since the 2 are tied to the same mechanic.

A suggestion to make Unholy Martyr better would be to have it proc For Each Condition gained not just each condition drawn. That way it would be a general anti condition trait and not just something that relies on nearby allies to be useful. Maybe make lifeforce gen a lower say 4-5% but proc every 2sec to draw conditions. It would also sync well with other skills&traits like Corruption where self inflicting conditions would give you LF.

As it is it’s barely Master level useful let alone Grand Master. Grand Master traits should be the backbone of most builds. The way I suggested would would for a lot of condition manipulation builds.

Akrasia.5469:

A suggestion to make Unholy Martyr better would be to have it proc For Each Condition gained not just each condition drawn. That way it would be a general anti condition trait and not just something that relies on nearby allies to be useful. Maybe make lifeforce gen a lower say 4-5% but proc every 2sec to draw conditions. It would also sync well with other skills&traits like Corruption where self inflicting conditions would give you LF.

As it is it’s barely Master level useful let alone Grand Master. Grand Master traits should be the backbone of most builds. The way I suggested would would for a lot of condition manipulation builds.

To proc from corruption skills is good idea, but it can’t work at its current state, you cant use utilities in Shroud :/

Tim.6450:

That’s the thing with this trait, the statement "2s damage negation every 10/12s on top of our natural bulk " is not true by coupling the damage negation through the shroud, well unless you get bursted so hard that your 30K shroud is evaporated (which would the situation this trait should work against anyway). The more life force you amass the longer the effective cooldown your damage negation will have so our shroud bulk is working against the trait. It’s not like while a lot of other traits/skills where using one of the defensive effects helps you cross the gap to the other defensive effect since the 2 are tied to the same mechanic.

You’re forgetting that in small scale fights like 1v1 and 2v2 you could just flash your iframes since you won’t need the full DS and this would give you an inappropriate amount of survivability for small scale and you’d still be able to use the trait for negating full focus fire if you get rotated to. I would rather have us stay weak to focus than risk us becoming like Scrapper and Ele/Chrono pre-nerf.

Aktium.9506:

Tim.6450:

That’s the thing with this trait, the statement "2s damage negation every 10/12s on top of our natural bulk " is not true by coupling the damage negation through the shroud, well unless you get bursted so hard that your 30K shroud is evaporated (which would the situation this trait should work against anyway). The more life force you amass the longer the effective cooldown your damage negation will have so our shroud bulk is working against the trait. It’s not like while a lot of other traits/skills where using one of the defensive effects helps you cross the gap to the other defensive effect since the 2 are tied to the same mechanic.

You’re forgetting that in small scale fights like 1v1 and 2v2 you could just flash your iframes since you won’t need the full DS and this would give you an inappropriate amount of survivability for small scale and you’d still be able to use the trait for negating full focus fire if you get rotated to.

You make it sound like having a 2 second damage negation frame every 10~12 seconds as your major defense would be horribly op. I have seen worse.

Aktium.9506:

I would rather have us stay weak to focus than risk us becoming like Scrapper and Ele/Chrono pre-nerf.

So getting focussed when getting in a team fight, while not having the mobility to avoid said teamfight is a good idea?

mazut.4296:

Akrasia.5469:

A suggestion to make Unholy Martyr better would be to have it proc For Each Condition gained not just each condition drawn. That way it would be a general anti condition trait and not just something that relies on nearby allies to be useful. Maybe make lifeforce gen a lower say 4-5% but proc every 2sec to draw conditions. It would also sync well with other skills&traits like Corruption where self inflicting conditions would give you LF.

As it is it’s barely Master level useful let alone Grand Master. Grand Master traits should be the backbone of most builds. The way I suggested would would for a lot of condition manipulation builds.

To proc from corruption skills is good idea, but it can’t work at its current state, you cant use utilities in Shroud :/

Yeah that’s the point in it’s current state it just sucks completely as a GMaster trait. To clearify I suggest it procs for every condition you get not just ones drawn from allies and procs from corruption skills. It should work in and out of shroud but just at a lower LF gain per condition.

Here’s what’s wrong with it currently:
Very Situational: as you have to be in shroud & around allies with conditions so you may never use this in a fight. NO GM trait should be used so little.
Completely Passive: It’s not a trait that you can use when you want and doesn’t sync with any of your skills (barely works with Plague signet)
Too Slow: At 3 seconds to proc you might only get a 1 or 2 procs when entering shroud.
In Blood Magic: Going back to the OP suggestion, Yes Blood is the trait line that helps allies the most but putting the only GM traits that support allies in the same line takes away from build diversity. If i wanted to make a true support build I’d want both condi removal and something else like Well protection or extra healing… Now you only get to pick 1.. not cool.

Another big issue I find with Unholy Martyr is it’s lack of synergy (both functionally and thematically) with the rest of the line. The way I see it, before BM can be called a group-support tree it should be called a life siphon and healing tree.

Every single other trait in the line has something to do with healing or sustain (Banshee’s Wail is a bit of an outlier, but not much considering the sustain aspect of warhorn 5).
Unholy Martyr is different. Sure, it’s group support and sustain, but it accomplishes that through condition and life force manipulation – two things that are nowhere else in the line. The trait is just the perfect garbage storm of having no synergy, being overtly situational, and not even that great when the situation calls for it.

My suggestion would be to attach some sort of transfer aspect to it, maybe have the trait cause some shroud ability to auto transfer (maybe even the auto, only with a reasonable ICD). While this certainly doesn’t fit with the rest of BM, neither does Unholy Martyr.

As for swapping it with Unholy Sanctuary… Martyr definitely has way more synergies with Death Magic due to it having more condition manipulation traits. However, it cannot be forgotten that it was nerfed due to these synergies with minion traits that allow for easy condition trading.

Steelstickfig.9146:

Another big issue I find with Unholy Martyr is it’s lack of synergy (both functionally and thematically) with the rest of the line. The way I see it, before BM can be called a group-support tree it should be called a life siphon and healing tree.

Every single other trait in the line has something to do with healing or sustain (Banshee’s Wail is a bit of an outlier, but not much considering the sustain aspect of warhorn 5).
Unholy Martyr is different. Sure, it’s group support and sustain, but it accomplishes that through condition and life force manipulation – two things that are nowhere else in the line. The trait is just the perfect garbage storm of having no synergy, being overtly situational, and not even that great when the situation calls for it.

My suggestion would be to attach some sort of transfer aspect to it, maybe have the trait cause some shroud ability to auto transfer (maybe even the auto, only with a reasonable ICD). While this certainly doesn’t fit with the rest of BM, neither does Unholy Martyr.

As for swapping it with Unholy Sanctuary… Martyr definitely has way more synergies with Death Magic due to it having more condition manipulation traits. However, it cannot be forgotten that it was nerfed due to these synergies with minion traits that allow for easy condition trading.

Totally agree. I think swapping it into curses would also be better, maybe by combining it with Parasitic Contagion. I’d like to see Unholy Sanctuary in Blood Magic (Maybe rename it Blood Haven) and have some sort of real sustain GM in Death. I’d leave the trait with the name Unholy Sanctuary and have it do something like gain 1 second of invulnerability when entering and leaving shroud.

Unholy Martyr and Unholy Sanctuary are o the ‘wrong’ specializations on purpose to ensure there is an opportunity cost to taking them.

Calls to swap them started right after the big trait rework that introduced them.

Anchoku.8142:

Unholy Martyr and Unholy Sanctuary are o the ‘wrong’ specializations on purpose to ensure there is an opportunity cost to taking them.

Calls to swap them started right after the big trait rework that introduced them.

That’s clearly understood by most I think but it’s a very lazy way to accomplish the same thing at the cost of build diversity. Unholy Martyr at the moment is unusable and by putting all the support traits in the same line it’s hard to be a support specialist. Necros already have a reputation for being a lousy support class and there’s not much we can do about it when builds are handicapping us.

LOL, unholy martyr is hardly a support trait. In actual pvp you generally won’t be pulling enough condis to make a difference.

zapv.8051:

LOL, unholy martyr is hardly a support trait. In actual pvp you generally won’t be pulling enough condis to make a difference.

I never said it was a good trait, just the opposite, but its technically a support trait. That is party of the reasoning for putting it into blood magic but given a buff (I suggested speeding it up to pull more condis earlier in this thread) and put into another trait line you can get a blood support GM and UMart and maybe make a better support build.

Also not every adjustment is for PvP. Necros are weakest in high level PvE now so bringing up PvP only isn’t necessary.

How about, no?

Don’t get me wrong, for me, if a trait have to be swap with Unholy martyr, it’s parasitic contagion.

Unholy martyr is a trait that is here for condition manipulation which is something that belong to the curse line.

Parasitic contagion draw life through condition. In it’s current form this trait is stuck in spite due to the fact that it would be overpowered if it was paired with Lingering curse.

Unholy sanctuary, on an other hand, belong to the death magic thematic. Well, I wouldn’t be against some minor change to this trait but It does have the “undead” mark on it. Beside, why would you put a trait that doesn’t have any relation with “blood” in Blood magic?