Guild Wars 2

Okay, so Minions received a few buffs in the last patch but they still have glaring problems such as their AI not being consistent and their complete lack of usefulness in areas where AoE are present.

I was playing around with some minions earlier and started thinking about ways to improve on these problem areas, I came up with:

• Reduce their toughness but increase their vitality to compensate – This will lower the chances of them getting aggro meaning that they will live slightly longer.

• In combat and out of combat health regen – Giving them decent health regen out of combat will increase the fluidity of Minions as it’d reduce the likelyhood of entering combat with a Minion that has low health (Or if swapping Utilities to dismiss it, waiting on the cooldown for said minion) whilst giving them a small amount of health regen in combat will assist in their ability to stay alive through small amounts of random cleaves/AoE

• Weapon Skills causing minions to attack current target – Improves how minions initiate combat, removes the issues caused by AoE heavy weapon sets (Staff) and makes target switching more reliable – Optional weapon skills with no target makes them attack the nearest target

• Dodging to make Minions also dodge – Allows minions to be able to avoid high damage attacks that are easy to notice and avoid by players Optional Make dodging have minions disengage combat and head for the player (So as to be able to position them via Dodge, if coupled with the Weapon skill combat initiation it should be fairly fluid to engage/disengage combat like every other weapon skill and utility in the game)

Anyway… If you can think of something else it’d be nice to have some ideas on how improvements could be made.

Taril.8619:

Okay, so Minions received a few buffs in the last patch but they still have glaring problems such as their AI not being consistent and their complete lack of usefulness in areas where AoE are present.

I was playing around with some minions earlier and started thinking about ways to improve on these problem areas, I came up with:

• Reduce their toughness but increase their vitality to compensate – This will lower the chances of them getting aggro meaning that they will live slightly longer.

That would force you into one build for minions. Sorry I run berzerker with Minions and i prefer them to tank a brunt of the damage. You are walking a fine line if you increase their vitality. If you overscale it they will be the only pvp style since it would essentially give you 5 people to kill for everyone.

Taril.8619:

• In combat and out of combat health regen – Giving them decent health regen out of combat will increase the fluidity of Minions as it’d reduce the likelyhood of entering combat with a Minion that has low health (Or if swapping Utilities to dismiss it, waiting on the cooldown for said minion) whilst giving them a small amount of health regen in combat will assist in their ability to stay alive through small amounts of random cleaves/AoE

We have been through this a dozen times. They are not pets, they are supposed to die. They are not perma pets designed to make your life easier, they are tools to be used and then expunged. If you find your minions are on low health a lot trait for poison on death.

Taril.8619:

• Weapon Skills causing minions to attack current target – Improves how minions initiate combat, removes the issues caused by AoE heavy weapon sets (Staff) and makes target switching more reliable – Optional weapon skills with no target makes them attack the nearest target

The code to do this would be enormous and be subject to an incredible amount of bugs and frustration. You can already specify who you want them to attack by simply attacking that target with single target abilities. Bhawb is finalizing some tests to test which abilities and the timing of them.

Taril.8619:

• Dodging to make Minions also dodge – Allows minions to be able to avoid high damage attacks that are easy to notice and avoid by players Optional Make dodging have minions disengage combat and head for the player (So as to be able to position them via Dodge, if coupled with the Weapon skill combat initiation it should be fairly fluid to engage/disengage combat like every other weapon skill and utility in the game)

This would make them extremely OP in spvp and wvwvw situations. Someone targets my minion. I dodge they wasted a hit, I keep killing them. You have to think through how this will affect not just how you play.

Taril.8619:

Anyway… If you can think of something else it’d be nice to have some ideas on how improvements could be made.

My best idea for improvement is simple – Stop thinking of them as pets, but as tools. Once your mindset changes they are no longer as flawed as you think.

A very minor aoe resistance would be nice, but a lot of the aoe abilities are easily handled by proper summoning, and where to go with it.

The only really improvement is casting time after summons. I hate that I have a 1.25 second cast that can be interrupted easily.

Bas.7406:

That would force you into one build for minions. Sorry I run berzerker with Minions and i prefer them to tank a brunt of the damage. You are walking a fine line if you increase their vitality. If you overscale it they will be the only pvp style since it would essentially give you 5 people to kill for everyone.

I also run Berserker with Minions, note I didn’t say “REMOVE ALL TOUGHNESS AND GIVE THEM -1000000% THREAT AND 100000000 HEALTH” no, just a decrease in toughness that makes them “Less likely” to be targeted (If they could still pull threat based off their toughness when I was 30 into Death Magic + full PVT gear….) and a proportionate gain in vitality so that they wouldn’t be insta-gibbed by any attack

Bas.7406:

We have been through this a dozen times. They are not pets, they are supposed to die. They are not perma pets designed to make your life easier, they are tools to be used and then expunged. If you find your minions are on low health a lot trait for poison on death.

Yes they’re not perma pets, I’m not asking them to be able to regen their entire health bar in a couple of seconds, just a bit of health regen so that they can actually live long enough to fire off a couple of hits and get into a position in which their death would mean something as dying and placing a poison patch 1000 range away from anything is not very helpful.

Bas.7406:

The code to do this would be enormous and be subject to an incredible amount of bugs and frustration. You can already specify who you want them to attack by simply attacking that target with single target abilities. Bhawb is finalizing some tests to test which abilities and the timing of them.

1) Wouldn’t the code essentially be similar to the code for Auto-Attacks and the toggle-able function for auto-targeting but relating to minions auto-attacking?

2) Whilst you can specify attack targets, it’s not reliable. I know that you say that they attack 100% and are really reliable especially if you’re using single target abilities, but in my experience they are not. They aren’t even close, the amount of times I’ve attacked using only Sceptre #1 and Dagger #1 and my minons have stood around doing nothing until I’ve killed multiple enemies on my own is pretty awful.

Bas.7406:

This would make them extremely OP in spvp and wvwvw situations. Someone targets my minion. I dodge they wasted a hit, I keep killing them. You have to think through how this will affect not just how you play.

You mean someone could waste a hit? Almost like if they tried attacking you and you dodged? Wow that feature would make Necros unstoppable killing machines who can keep dodging forever and keep attacking whilst doing infinite dodging.

There are limitations on this suggestion – They’re tied to your dodging which means you would lose out on DPS and also survivability if you’re dodging to keep your minions alive (Which according to you is counter productive because you’re supposed to be letting your minions die because they’re minions and minions shouldn’t be used to attack things)

Bas.7406:

My best idea for improvement is simple – Stop thinking of them as pets, but as tools. Once your mindset changes they are no longer as flawed as you think.

You’re implying I think of them as pets. I do not. They are minions, they’re there to do some DPS and when the situation arises, to be killed off to cause more damage or healing (Though only 3 of 6 Minions can be killed off at will, the other 3 don’t have active abilities that cause death)

If I did think of them as pets I’d be passing off suggestions on making them more like the pets of Masterminds from the MMO City of Heroes – Making them tankier, do more sustained damage, scale off gear, more options for keeping them alive, self healing for minions etc

Bas.7406:

The only really improvement is casting time after summons. I hate that I have a 1.25 second cast that can be interrupted easily.

This is a very annoying thing… I’d be happy if they’d use the underwater cast time for minions which is 0.25. Heck, I’d settle with just the Bone Minions to have that.

@taril – I would be fine if I could dismiss them at will and resummon them with the CD and 1.25 second cast. I think it would help alot especially with Blood Fiend or the Bone Fiend tank.

I simply disagree that they need a bump in toughness. I say this because toughness won’t solve the issue at hand. If they see any change it would need to be a pve only AOE reduction to damage taken. Because loss of toughness would make them die even faster.

As for the AI issues, I am working with Bhawb to record and talk through how minion AI works. It’s not as simple as point and click, but once you settle down and think it through it makes sense.

They are 95% precise in their AI. There is a pattern to how they aggro, they follow that pattern almost perfectly every single time you follow it. You might not understand that pattern, you might not like that pattern, but it exists, and it works almost perfectly; with the only issues being aggro “sticking” to old targets sometimes.

Bhawb.7408:

They are 95% precise in their AI. There is a pattern to how they aggro, they follow that pattern almost perfectly every single time you follow it. You might not understand that pattern, you might not like that pattern, but it exists, and it works almost perfectly; with the only issues being aggro “sticking” to old targets sometimes.

I can’t tell which one but at this point you’re either a) the biggest anet fanboy alive b) trolling everyone and getting a kick out of it or c) simply delusional.

Just because you may have found a pattern to why they don’t always work doesn’t change the fact that they don’t always work. When at least 1 in 3 times I initiate combat one or more minions stands around twiddling their thumbs for a few seconds at best, or most of the fight at worst, there is a problem. The ranged minions are fine they work 100% of the time, but the melee ones do not, especially flesh golem, and to suggest they are fine and working as intended is ridiculous.

There are ways you can get them to attack fairly reliably sure, but there shouldn’t be any steps you need to take in order to get your minions to attack, this isn’t the launch sequence of a freaking spaceship, as soon as you are in combat they should all attack something in range, period.

There are three ranged and three melee. Flesh Golem is the only one that has ai or aggro issues.

I can’t tell which one but at this point you are either a) The biggest complainer and griper of video games who enjoys nitpicking on things that are relatively easy to figure out if you simply think about mechanics for a second. b) just trolling this me by contributing nothing of consequance to a comment or c) really bad at this game and so feel everyone who isn’t is a fanboy.

I am neither an anet fanboy nor delusional. I just look for the positive in the aspects, and because we have people who scream at anet when they can’t do things, not realizing that it may just not be their class. Some of us come at you with a more rational objective reply, and you scream fanboy!!!!! BTW the derogatory fanboy term you are looking for is actually spelt fanboi, but again that would require research which based on your comment might be difficult for you.

Look I hated GW1 so to say I am a fanboy is not only ridiculous, but in your world somehow a fan is something bad when in the real world being a fan simply means you enjoy the game or that you are mechanical device designed to project cool breeze in a hot room.

Relair, you are just flat out incorrect. I’ve done the testing, I know what their patterns are, and they all have logical reasons behind them. They aren’t a cheat code you have to enter by spinning 3 times in place, jumping twice, porting to LA and jumping, then typing out the lyrics to “Let it be”; they are all very easy, simple methods that ANet programmed in so that minions don’t over-aggro or become confused.

If you want your minions to attack, auto attack your target, never use staff (its aggro is obviously far too complicated for you), and you’ll be fine.

I realize I can walk up and stab something with a dagger and get them to attack, but why should you have to do that? Why be penalized for using a staff or a well or life transfer or some other aoe? Its not that big of a deal, I am bothered by their frailty alot more than than the melee pets standing around derping for awhile sometimes. But to say there is no problem at all just isnt true, you make it sound like the 99% of people who say their minions have ai issues are crazy. Thats the only point I was trying to make.

And Bas I wasn’t even quoting you I’m not sure why you are getting so upset and acting like its a personal attack on you or something. I know the ‘lol omg fanboy(boi)!’ retort isn’t very constructive and I didnt mean it to come out that way but when you see someone fervently denying a problem that almost everyone else thinks is obvious it can be frustrating, because you want Anet to acknowledge and fix said problem. Again its not the end of the world, I’d rather they gave them some aoe resistance and/or regen if I had to choose, but might as well hope they fix everything right?

Relair.1843:

Why be penalized for using a staff or a well or life transfer or some other aoe? Its not that big of a deal, I am bothered by their frailty alot more than than the melee pets standing around derping for awhile sometimes. But to say there is no problem at all just isnt true, you make it sound like the 99% of people who say their minions have ai issues are crazy. Thats the only point I was trying to make.

Lets say you start a fight using well of suffering, and hit 5 mobs. You expect the computer to just randomly decide which one the minions are supposed to focus? Or do they all just randomly attack? Or do they hit the closest, furthest? What if you want to pull a single mob out of a pack, do you want your minions instantly running directly at the mob the second you attack it so you end up with 15 mobs instead of 1?

They have a delay on single target attacks because it is most likely you are pulling (makes sense). They don’t aggro on AoE because if they did you’d have no control over them, no way for them to know what to focus. They have strange aggro patterns on staff because of how the staff is used, and possibly because of the way marks are. They have patterns, the patterns are pretty simple, and they are very effective if you take the time to learn them. People who say minions have AI issues aren’t crazy, its just ignorance. I’m not saying I was any better, I only discovered the real patterns completely on accident, I just had a very general idea of what to do. But the reality is if you take the time to learn their habits they are one of the most reliable utilities we have.

As for frailty, of course they won’t be able to soak up huge amounts of damage, killing them is the only real counterplay to tanky MM builds. If they could take a lot more damage, it’d be impossible to kill them. Imagine if BiP was unavoidable, and the bleeds couldn’t be cleansed. It was a guaranteed 10k damage every time you pressed the button. That is minions with too much HP.

The problem is that most of the fixes people want are going to destroy the balance that we have right now. Minions are one of the best 1v1 builds in the entire game, and the buffs that people are asking for (there are some that make sense, like max-damage from bosses) are going to break them.

You’d think staff 1 or one of the marks on a single target would get them to attack, but the melee ones dont act any better then than if it was cast on a group. And in your example, say you cast well of suffering and hit 5 things. It would be nice if they attacked something rather than nothing. There should be code for that…aoe=attack closest, or furthest, or whatever they want, but make it something. For the contingency plan in those situations to be ‘stand there’ seems a curious design choice don’t you think?

And I don’t want the minions buffed up in the hitpoint department necessarily, they should be able to be burst down of course, everything needs a counter…just something to make them usable in dungeons and wvw, aoe resistance or passive regen, something like that.

Staff 1 and marks will get them to attack. Staff 1 counts as any other single target ability; if you attack a target only once, they will attack in 4-5 seconds, if you attack twice, they attack the instant the second ability begins to cast. Marks will get them to attack in around 2 seconds to one of the targets hit (haven’t found out yet if there is anything obvious in who they choose).

AoE in general though would just confuse them. It isn’t very difficult to just learn that you need to tell them who to hit, auto attack the right target once and then do all the AoE you want.

I agree they should have some kind of passive resistance in dungeons to the huge AoE since it is unavoidable for them, and completely destroys their damage. In WvW I don’t think it would work as well, they can’t take a flat or % based AoE reduction, it really needs to be more of a damage cap. WvW just will never be a place for pet/summoned creatures.

Bhawb.7408:

If you want your minions to attack, auto attack your target, never use staff (its aggro is obviously far too complicated for you), and you’ll be fine.

You keep saying this and it’s flat out wrong.

I kill things using ONLY Dagger #1, you know, the dagger auto attack that is entirely single target and still pets often just stand around (They don’t follow me, they just stand there a few feet behind me doing nothing)

I’ve killed things using only Sceptre #1, yet another single target auto-attack that according to you should make them attack and yet often causes minions to again stand around doing nothing.

Oh what about Axe #1? Yeah, tried that same results.

You keep saying that single target attacks (Not Staff auto + Marks) means they will attack and they’re fine, but it’s not the case. I’ve seen all the minions wait around when I’m attacking doing nothing besides standing around or occasionally being attacked until they die.

You say there’s a pattern that you can exploit to make them attack? We shouldn’t have to do that in order to get use out of utilities that we have limited control over and that can be killed instantly in any content that’s actually worth doing (Anything that isn’t solo world PvE, even then 2-4 hits of normal mobs will kill even the Flesh Golem)

You say that it’d be too strong if you could make pets actually do things?

Well isn’t that the point? They’re still weak to AoE (Unless what everyone keeps suggesting is put in and they get like 90% resistance to AoE or only take a % of their health maximum) they still cannot avoid things (Unless my suggested change to be able to make them dodge, though tied to your own dodging so makes you more vulnerable) they have no condition clearing (Can’t remove Cripple/Immobilise/Chilling/Burning/Poison/Bleeds/Confusion meaning they can be controlled and killed off quickly with some conditions) and they don’t have scaling Vitality and Toughness so they won’t ever be more tanky then they currently are.

When selecting a bunch of minions, you’re giving up other utilities such as Wells (Suffering + Zerker gear = Tonnes of damage on up to 5 targets, in a chilling build you can keep multiple targets inside it for a good portion of its duration) or corruption skills (Epidemic = Amazing, Blood is Power is very good as well) which all scale of gear and work to make builds that are strong. Minions don’t scale off gear and currently have little control over them, making builds that use them potentially strong (I.e. When the AI works and they attack regularly) or potentially completely useless (I.e. When the AI doesn’t work and up to 5 out of 7 of your traits do literally nothing)

Bhawb.7408:

They are 95% precise in their AI.

I would have to disagree with that (regarding the Flesh Golem only).

It’s better than it was before, but still need some serious work.

ranged minions = fine
rest not so much and golem is a special one.

How ofen have you used charge on golem and hope he attacks when its done?

Had 3 attempts on the icicle in fractals before he started attacking.

And you might aswell say the ai is 100 precise cause its still doing what the AI tells it to do.

wiazabi.2549:

How ofen have you used charge on golem and hope he attacks when its done?

Flesh Golem charge does not make him or any other minions aggro at all.

Taril.8619:

…

I have literally spent 10 hours over the last few days testing out minion aggro, and what you are saying just isn’t accurate. I’ll have videos up in a while, but I can reproduce the minion aggro patterns I have found without fail. Its not like you need to exploit a bunch of things to get them to attack, or enter some secret code, you just need to attack the target twice. It is that simple.

@Avigrus; Flesh Golem was the reason I put 95%. He and bone minions will, on very rare occasion, get stuck. It tends to be a very short lived thing, and in bone minion’s case it is just 1 of them that gets stuck.

Bhawb.7408:

Its not like you need to exploit a bunch of things to get them to attack, or enter some secret code, you just need to attack the target twice. It is that simple.

Yet, I can still go about hitting targets 10-30 times with purely single target attacks and minions still won’t attack

I’ve seen this happening with:

Blood Fiend (In my experience, the most reliable minion)
Bone Fiend (Not very often, but still happens occasionally)
Shadow Fiend (This guy is hopeless, whenever I use him I always find him attacking a target I’ve not done anything to, even seen him go after undamaged inanimate objects I’ve done nothing to, can even use his active and he teleports and then runs back off to what he was hitting before…)
Flesh Wurm (Not entirely often do I see him hitting the wrong thing, though I don’t use it very often either)
Bone Minions (Happens to both of them more than 50% of the time, it’s to the point where I only summon them to explode them immediately)
Flesh Golem (Happens around 30-40% of the time, the most reliable melee minion in my experience)