Guild Wars 2

Zzod.5791:

I don’t know why people are hesitating in getting this because they are fearing a nerf through the introduction of an internal cooldown timer. As of right now, we can only daze through spectral grasp and warhorn daze. So, if an ICD is introduced, it will most surely be not introduce an application bottleneck that we aren’t already facing through our limited options in actually interrupting someone. And no, I don’t see fear being changed into an interrupt.

I don’t see why fear wouldn’t get “fixed” to be an official interrupt. At least this rune set shouldn’t prevent it from getting fixed either way. Especially if they introduce other interrupt based runes in the future.

I think most people are less scared of a cooldown on the 6 bonus, and more of a mass nerf to the entire rune set (like a nerf on the 4 and 6). I mean just compare to the torment rune set…. it has a 4 bonus of…. (4): 15% Torment Duration

Who is to say they don’t back track and make the 4th bonus just +15% confusion duration and leave only the confusion on interrupt? That would then make the set very niche for interrupt builds, which is what they intended for it.

So after fiddling with this for a few days, I am really not impressed.

A typical proc of confusion is a little less than 500 damage in WvW. An extra 100 condition damage would net you 5 damage per bleed/second.

Undead runes would give well over 100 condition damage, even if your necro sucks, and has no armor. (spvp people I guess)

So with undead runes your mark of blood would do 150+ more damage for it’s 10 second duration. So against 3 or more mobs undead is the clear winner, as it rapidly does more damage as you spam mark of blood over and over, as well as boosting Earth Sigil procs, and any poison or fire damage you should do.

There’s also the joy of having it proc on something unintended, like a passing deer, or a Jagged Horror….

It also turns pvp against aware necros into a game of hot potato as you just toss it back and forth at each other.

So I’ll give it another day or so before I go back to undead runes, as I have yet to recall a fight where it helped me take someone down, and it’s really not helping in the aoe department.

Of course it doesn’t help in the AOE department, unless you are careful about where and what you epidemic. It hits for 620 when i am stacked up, and lasts for about 10 seconds. I personally would prefer that over a little extra damage. But I was using nightmare before the patch, so really in my case, my damage has not changed.

Yes I agree it is annoying when it spawns on the guy with almost no conditions, instead of the one you want to epi, but dumbfire is the same way and earth sigil to a lesser degree.

Necro vs. necro has always been hot-potato, confusion or not. Its a boring fight to be sure.

Where it really shines is if you can get it to proc by focusing on one person with sceptor before dropping aoes, and then epi over to others. WvW players spam like crazy, so it does quite a bit. My experience has been that they are a nice improvement, but not all that overpowering, considering I don’t build for the 6 bonus

Ezeriel.9574:

A typical proc of confusion is a little less than 500 damage in WvW.

That would mean you only have 1350 condition damage. In a full condi build you’ll have ~400 more. A typical 3-stack confusion proc is close to 600 with that.

Ezeriel.9574:

Undead runes would give well over 100 condition damage, even if your necro sucks, and has no armor. (spvp people I guess)

No they don’t.
I believe you are confusing armor with toughness. You can barely reach the 2k toughness mark with full (ascended) rabid, undead and 30 in Death Magic.
In case you don’t remember: the bonus is 0,05 x toughness = condition damage.

Ezeriel.9574:

So with undead runes your mark of blood would do 150+ more damage for it’s 10 second duration. So against 3 or more mobs undead is the clear winner, as it rapidly does more damage as you spam mark of blood over and over, as well as boosting Earth Sigil procs, and any poison or fire damage you should do.

In a standard rabid condi build with just 5 runes + rabid crest the difference would be ~70 condition damage.
That’s 3,5 per bleed tick less.17,5 for burning. 7 for poison.

Assuming you have 30 in Curses your condi dmg with Perplexity would be about 1780, so 3 stacks confusion will tick for ~595. That means: even if your confused opponent attacks you just once in 10 seconds, you’d have to do ~160 bleed ticks on him to catch up with the damage done by confusion.

Now, it’s very safe to assume that your opponent will either cleanse or just attack you more than once.
There is absolutely no way that you’ll average more damage with undead, no way! Even against 5 targets.

Ezeriel.9574:

It also turns pvp against aware necros into a game of hot potato as you just toss it back and forth at each other.

Like Rennoko said, the most boring match up there is because it’s always been a hot potato fight even without confusion.

Ezeriel.9574:

and it’s really not helping in the aoe department.

…unless you use epidemic, which I assume you have as a condi necro.

You also have to look at it this way:
Confusion will not only spike your damage if people are focusing you, but it might also save you some hp if they decide not to attack you because of it.
Your damage is higher than with Undead runes and it indirectly buffs your defense.

Confusion is a great offensive-defensive condition. It forces people to go on the defense and re-think their plan. And if they don’t, say bye-bye. I don’t miss the higher malice. I don’t like Warhorn over Dagger OH unfortunately, but I do on/off slot Spectral Grasp to proc the 6 set so it’s not a complete waste, may just slot in an orb/crest eventually.

To compare damage, in an ideal scenario, you would (magically) have 80% uptime of burn, 100% uptime poison and 25 stacks of bleed all the time (lol). The increase from Undead (assuming +100 Malice, which in most cases it’s not) would be 0.8×25 + 10 + 25×5 DPS = 155DPS, 1550 damage over 10 seconds.

Confusion will proc at least 3 stacks lasting 10 seconds. With my stats, this will proc for 600 damage each time. It’ll proc at least once, if not twice or three times, bringing it very close to the dreamland picture detailed above. Like I said before I think, I wouldn’t use the rune set in PvE, because there, you can achieve the ideal conditions. But in WvW where you probably have more like 50-80% burn/poison uptime, 10-15 stacks of bleeding, you’re gonna struggle to outDPS Perplexity Runes.

There’s a reason why Terror is good, there’s a reason why Burning made us so powerful. And it’s the same reason Confusion is really cool. They are BURST conditions which complement our weaker ramp-up conditions like bleeds/poison, which people will very quickly want to cleanse.

I’m still considering the torment set myself. The confusion procs, all in all, are a bit unreliable. When comparing the two, it all boils down to one question:

Will the confusion inflict more damage than the torment?

I’m not so sure on that. The superior runes of torment put nearly any condi necro build I run 100% torment duration, so this gives an additional 3 to 5 seconds for Tainted Shackles. This comes to a total of 9-15 extra ticks of damage overall from tainted shackles, but that is just the fringe benefit.

The real benefit comes from the proc on heal. Though the cooldown was nerfed to be nigh unusable with other classes’ heals, it goes fairly well with Consume Conditions and Summon Blood Fiend. The proc on heal causes 2 stacks AoE torment for 20 seconds, which adds an additional 40 ticks of torment to the damage output.

The real key here being the AoE nature of it all. The additional duration from tainted shackles and the heal proc hit up to 5 enemies, so overall it ends up being upwards to 45-75 additional ticks with tainted shackles, and 200 additional ticks with the heal. Then throw on epidemic to double up the damage, and things can get pretty wicked. Things can also get pretty complicated, too, depending on the foe you fight. Since torment requires motion to do full damage, in PVE this ends up being around 75% of bleeding damage, but against kite-able enemies and in PVP it is 150% bleeding damage for that duration.

The real trick in the comparison is whether or not terror will be properly fixed to be an interrupt. If it is, then Perplexity gets another firm foot to stand on. If you do a lot of 1 vs. 1 fights, small skirmishes, or are concerned with bosses, then Perplexity is probably the way to go. However, I’m going to roll with tormenting and cause more mass havoc.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m still considering the torment set myself. The confusion procs, all in all, are a bit unreliable. When comparing the two, it all boils down to one question:

Will the confusion inflict more damage than the torment?

I’m not so sure on that. The superior runes of torment put nearly any condi necro build I run 100% torment duration, so this gives an additional 3 to 5 seconds for Tainted Shackles. This comes to a total of 9-15 extra ticks of damage overall from tainted shackles, but that is just the fringe benefit.

The real benefit comes from the proc on heal. Though the cooldown was nerfed to be nigh unusable with other classes’ heals, it goes fairly well with Consume Conditions and Summon Blood Fiend. The proc on heal causes 2 stacks AoE torment for 20 seconds, which adds an additional 40 ticks of torment to the damage output.

The real key here being the AoE nature of it all. The additional duration from tainted shackles and the heal proc hit up to 5 enemies, so overall it ends up being upwards to 45-75 additional ticks with tainted shackles, and 200 additional ticks with the heal. Then throw on epidemic to double up the damage, and things can get pretty wicked. Things can also get pretty complicated, too, depending on the foe you fight. Since torment requires motion to do full damage, in PVE this ends up being around 75% of bleeding damage, but against kite-able enemies and in PVP it is 150% bleeding damage for that duration.

The real trick in the comparison is whether or not terror will be properly fixed to be an interrupt. If it is, then Perplexity gets another firm foot to stand on. If you do a lot of 1 vs. 1 fights, small skirmishes, or are concerned with bosses, then Perplexity is probably the way to go. However, I’m going to roll with tormenting and cause more mass havoc.

The radius on the 6 piece bonus on heal is very small my guess 240m like most aoe on heal stuff and weapon swap stuff like geomancy, hydromancy, etc. That is the main problem with the torment rune (or any on heal rune proc with a damage component) the radius is just small which is fine if your on a class that will be in melee range often.

You would have to be right next to your target probably have to fear to ensure you don’t get interrupted then heal and they could very well be out of range by time you get it off.

oZii.2864:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m still considering the torment set myself. The confusion procs, all in all, are a bit unreliable. When comparing the two, it all boils down to one question:

Will the confusion inflict more damage than the torment?

I’m not so sure on that. The superior runes of torment put nearly any condi necro build I run 100% torment duration, so this gives an additional 3 to 5 seconds for Tainted Shackles. This comes to a total of 9-15 extra ticks of damage overall from tainted shackles, but that is just the fringe benefit.

The real benefit comes from the proc on heal. Though the cooldown was nerfed to be nigh unusable with other classes’ heals, it goes fairly well with Consume Conditions and Summon Blood Fiend. The proc on heal causes 2 stacks AoE torment for 20 seconds, which adds an additional 40 ticks of torment to the damage output.

The real key here being the AoE nature of it all. The additional duration from tainted shackles and the heal proc hit up to 5 enemies, so overall it ends up being upwards to 45-75 additional ticks with tainted shackles, and 200 additional ticks with the heal. Then throw on epidemic to double up the damage, and things can get pretty wicked. Things can also get pretty complicated, too, depending on the foe you fight. Since torment requires motion to do full damage, in PVE this ends up being around 75% of bleeding damage, but against kite-able enemies and in PVP it is 150% bleeding damage for that duration.

The real trick in the comparison is whether or not terror will be properly fixed to be an interrupt. If it is, then Perplexity gets another firm foot to stand on. If you do a lot of 1 vs. 1 fights, small skirmishes, or are concerned with bosses, then Perplexity is probably the way to go. However, I’m going to roll with tormenting and cause more mass havoc.

The radius on the 6 piece bonus on heal is very small my guess 240m like most aoe on heal stuff and weapon swap stuff like geomancy, hydromancy, etc. That is the main problem with the torment rune (or any on heal rune proc with a damage component) the radius is just small which is fine if your on a class that will be in melee range often.

You would have to be right next to your target probably have to fear to ensure you don’t get interrupted then heal and they could very well be out of range by time you get it off.

Not a problem in PVE, where the team frequently stacks up for encounters and all enemies pool into one spot right next to you. But yeah, there’s always the inherent risk of being interrupted when healing at close range like that. Though I’m not concerned with them getting out of range, since on my condi spec I’m constantly hitting other players with cripple, chill, and immobilize.

Just to support, my ranger friend is running these now, and the range seems to be 240-300. I agree it is way to small for the cost of 6 runes, and the fact that the 4 bonus is so much weaker than the 4 perplex bonus. In reference to Tormenting runes that is.

everyone keeps talking about terror/fear being bugged. Anet has specifically stated although it is a crowd control it is meant to act as a condition and not as a STUN. this is somewhat silly thoough as necro HAS to trait fear for it to do damage as all the OTHER conditions do. i feel that is what is really bugged. it does fall into a weird gap in the middle of conditions and stuns though as it doesnt do normal condition damage AND you need a stunbreak to remove it properly. fear will not be ‘fixed’ in order to apply to these runes as an interrupt although it does indeed interrupt skills, it is still considered a condition by the game. i think they should make it do normal condition damage and change the fear damage trait altogether. really Anet just needs to make a real decision across the board about how they’re going to handle fear as it is quite confusing. the para sigil for instance and now the perplexity rune. fear seems to be a game mechanic without a home

The bug with fear is that sometimes it does interrupt but most of the time it does not, so it seems random/bugged. DS 3, downed 2 will not interrupt, but you can get interrupt procs under right circumstances from every other fear skill in the game.

Use these runes and you will sometimes, but not most of the time, get confusion procs for staff 5 or spectral wall.

Rennoko.5731:

Ezeriel.9574:

Ezeriel.9574:

…You’re just left with weaker bleeds. Like 20-30 per tic weaker depending on how you spec.

I said “depending on how you spec”

….it’s not my fault none of you can read.

Sorry… but I can run Superior runes of the Pirate and run 30/30/10/0/0, and get more condition damage than Undead Runes if I go 30/0/0/30/10. Guess pirate runes are much better for conditions.

It isn’t the runes that caused you to lose the condition damage as others have said, so commenting the runes in effect cause you to lose that damage is silly.

Bottom line, even without the 6 bonus, (in my opinion) are still the best we can get for a mix of good-great damage and an addtional condition freebie tacked on.

Would you post your full build so we can do a comparison?

Many Thanks.

atheria.2837:

Rennoko.5731:

Ezeriel.9574:

Ezeriel.9574:

…You’re just left with weaker bleeds. Like 20-30 per tic weaker depending on how you spec.

I said “depending on how you spec”

….it’s not my fault none of you can read.

Sorry… but I can run Superior runes of the Pirate and run 30/30/10/0/0, and get more condition damage than Undead Runes if I go 30/0/0/30/10. Guess pirate runes are much better for conditions.

It isn’t the runes that caused you to lose the condition damage as others have said, so commenting the runes in effect cause you to lose that damage is silly.

Bottom line, even without the 6 bonus, (in my opinion) are still the best we can get for a mix of good-great damage and an addtional condition freebie tacked on.

Would you post your full build so we can do a comparison?

Many Thanks.

A lot changes in a month or more. Perplexity is no longer the best damage option, and really is pretty much put to shame by the scavenging runes. I have several builds linked on my previous roaming videos below.

How does perplexity compare verse Mad king runes.

Or in your case Rennoko. Scavenging verse Mad king?

I use Nemisis’s WVW condition build. Perhaps there is a difference in that build verse yours that prefers Mad king runes.

nekretaal.6485:

The bug with fear is that sometimes it does interrupt but most of the time it does not, so it seems random/bugged. DS 3, downed 2 will not interrupt, but you can get interrupt procs under right circumstances from every other fear skill in the game.

Use these runes and you will sometimes, but not most of the time, get confusion procs for staff 5 or spectral wall.

yes indeed you do proc confusion rarely with this rune but it has nothing to do with interrupting and everything to do with the fact that the 4th effect of this rune has a 20% chance to cause 3 stacks of confusion when you hit an oponent. granted a very well time SW or a daze from the warhorn will proc it, fear will never ever proc effect 6 on this sigil as fear is not considered a stun by the game. it is a condition and there is no changing that. this is exactly why the Para sigil no longer works with Fear either. yes it can interrut skill usage but that’s only b/c that is the way fear works but it is not a proper interrupt and isnt bugged at all. it works exactly as it is inteded to and thats not gonna change. i’d also like to know what interrupt procs you’re talking about b/c necro has none.

nekretaal.6485:

Use these runes and you will sometimes, but not most of the time, get confusion procs for staff 5 or spectral wall.

You already mentioned this in a different thread a few days back, but it’s false. Fear does not interrupt, ever.

Tman.6349:

i’d also like to know what interrupt procs you’re talking about b/c necro has none.

Wail of Doom, Spectral Grasp.

I suppose it also works with Sinking Tomb… never tried the runes under water though.

flow.6043:

Tman.6349:

i’d also like to know what interrupt procs you’re talking about b/c necro has none.

Wail of Doom, Spectral Grasp.

I suppose it also works with Sinking Tomb… never tried the runes under water though.

Deadly Catch too. That one is nice because it’s AoE.

KOPPER.1458:

How does perplexity compare verse Mad king runes.

Or in your case Rennoko. Scavenging verse Mad king?

I use Nemisis’s WVW condition build. Perhaps there is a difference in that build verse yours that prefers Mad king runes.

The only interrupt effect I was able to get was on dagger 3, in strange situations. Not sure I have ever seen DS3 or Staff 5 cause peplex procs. (the 6 bonus proc that is)

Mad King is not something I like because I only really use plague, and when I am using it, there are three people beating on me, and a flock of birds won’t help much. Also the stats on Mad King are power. Durations are OKAY, but there are better duration options in my opinion.

Right now scavenging is the best set available for straight damage, and it comes with free life steal procs. Hard to beat that. Undead is close on damage, but only has a little toughness as the alternate effect (far weaker than the siphon). Perplexity will only be worth it if they ever make fear a true interrupt, otherwise not so much.

thanks for explain that Rennoko.

flow.6043:

nekretaal.6485:

Use these runes and you will sometimes, but not most of the time, get confusion procs for staff 5 or spectral wall.

You already mentioned this in a different thread a few days back, but it’s false. Fear does not interrupt, ever.

Tman.6349:

i’d also like to know what interrupt procs you’re talking about b/c necro has none.

Wail of Doom, Spectral Grasp.

I suppose it also works with Sinking Tomb… never tried the runes under water though.

i was referring to the fact that FEAR will infact interrupt skill usage and it will. i also stated that fear DOES NOT interrupt proper as a normal interrupt does such as daze etc but rather the mechanics of the fear itself is what interrupts the skill usage as you immediately turn away and run. as far as the “interrupt proc” i wasnt referring to what skills you might use as that is pointless but rather i was questioning what traits etc it is that you proc on interrupt with a necro. rune of perplexity aside, i don’t know of any.

Tman.6349:

flow.6043:

nekretaal.6485:

Use these runes and you will sometimes, but not most of the time, get confusion procs for staff 5 or spectral wall.

You already mentioned this in a different thread a few days back, but it’s false. Fear does not interrupt, ever.

Tman.6349:

i’d also like to know what interrupt procs you’re talking about b/c necro has none.

Wail of Doom, Spectral Grasp.

I suppose it also works with Sinking Tomb… never tried the runes under water though.

i was referring to the fact that FEAR will infact interrupt skill usage and it will. i also stated that fear DOES NOT interrupt proper as a normal interrupt does such as daze etc but rather the mechanics of the fear itself is what interrupts the skill usage as you immediately turn away and run. as far as the “interrupt proc” i wasnt referring to what skills you might use as that is pointless but rather i was questioning what traits etc it is that you proc on interrupt with a necro. rune of perplexity aside, i don’t know of any.

Necro’ed thread eh?

Necro has no “on interrupt” trait… in fact, short of the interruption daily, no one even noticed or cared about this before the perplexity runes, because it DID interrupt, just didn’t count towards that effect. There was no reason to care before, but if this is a trend, IE other rune options start doing this in the future, we don’t want to get left behind.

The daily interruptor is the only reason.

I get my daily interrupter, by spamming staff 5 on the corpse wurms during the DE “Burn the scattered Pact corpses to honor the fallen” which is in Desminas Hallows in Cursed shore.

This is easy and it is repeatable for all the doubters to see that staff 5 does indeed interrupt. Because of the spawn you will get 3-5 procs of confusion and credit for your daily per use of staff 5.

nekretaal.6485:

The daily interruptor is the only reason.

I get my daily interrupter, by spamming staff 5 on the corpse wurms during the DE “Burn the scattered Pact corpses to honor the fallen” which is in Desminas Hallows in Cursed shore.

This is easy and it is repeatable for all the doubters to see that staff 5 does indeed interrupt. Because of the spawn you will get 3-5 procs of confusion and credit for your daily per use of staff 5.

Staff 5 will occasionally proc the interrupt, though I cannot for the life of me figure out why, nor can I repeat the process. Just because it CAN happen, just helps to illustrate that fear SHOULD interrupt in all cases, not just randomly on staff 5 when it feels like it.

Rennoko.5731:

nekretaal.6485:

The daily interruptor is the only reason.

I get my daily interrupter, by spamming staff 5 on the corpse wurms during the DE “Burn the scattered Pact corpses to honor the fallen” which is in Desminas Hallows in Cursed shore.

This is easy and it is repeatable for all the doubters to see that staff 5 does indeed interrupt. Because of the spawn you will get 3-5 procs of confusion and credit for your daily per use of staff 5.

Staff 5 will occasionally proc the interrupt, though I cannot for the life of me figure out why, nor can I repeat the process. Just because it CAN happen, just helps to illustrate that fear SHOULD interrupt in all cases, not just randomly on staff 5 when it feels like it.

Skills that have movement into the area as part of their effects can be interrupted with Mark of Doom or Spectral Wall and get a proper interrupt (e.g., Bull’s Charge) They have to move into it, though, rather than having it dropped on them. Yes, it is absurdly stupid.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Rennoko.5731:

nekretaal.6485:

The daily interruptor is the only reason.

I get my daily interrupter, by spamming staff 5 on the corpse wurms during the DE “Burn the scattered Pact corpses to honor the fallen” which is in Desminas Hallows in Cursed shore.

This is easy and it is repeatable for all the doubters to see that staff 5 does indeed interrupt. Because of the spawn you will get 3-5 procs of confusion and credit for your daily per use of staff 5.

Staff 5 will occasionally proc the interrupt, though I cannot for the life of me figure out why, nor can I repeat the process. Just because it CAN happen, just helps to illustrate that fear SHOULD interrupt in all cases, not just randomly on staff 5 when it feels like it.

Skills that have movement into the area as part of their effects can be interrupted with Mark of Doom or Spectral Wall and get a proper interrupt (e.g., Bull’s Charge) They have to move into it, though, rather than having it dropped on them. Yes, it is absurdly stupid.

Interesting…. I know for a fact that as a necro, I have hit a mark and been given 5 confusion before, and I am pretty sure I have no leaping skills. I would believe what you say though because it would interrupt the movement part of the skill, and thereby the rest of the skill as well for leap skills.

Yeah, it can proc a proper interrupt outside those skills too (I don’t know the stipulations, though), but the interruptee must move into the mark or wall for it to count. Dropping it directly on them doesn’t work.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yeah, it can proc a proper interrupt outside those skills too (I don’t know the stipulations, though), but the interruptee must move into the mark or wall for it to count. Dropping it directly on them doesn’t work.

Yes agree… this was what I noticed as well. Had to run into it.