Guild Wars 2

squallaus.8321:

YES YOU ARE out of touch with the different areas of the game in the PVE environment. You vastly underestimate the amount of conditions that are inflicted on players.

You keep claiming I’m out of touch with the game when you’ve never given an example of how. I play all aspects of PvE, not just Fractals and Raids. (Which btw, Fractals has some of the hardest hitting conditions in the game and I still don’t need to rely on death.)

squallaus.8321:

All along I was talking about PVE. You are the one that has is misconstrued.

If that’s the case you are extremely bad at the game. Open world conditions are low damage most the time and the conditions that can actually hurt you(Aka in the living world and occasionally HoT maps) are few and far between. Not only that you don’t need to cleans them every 3 seconds if you’re an active and mobile player. And for the ones that do hit you hard they generally are extremely short duration.

squallaus.8321:

Your invalid bashing of Death Magic did not go unnoticed hence either the corrections from me that followed.

You didn’t correct anything, you showed your ignorance about how grouping works in the high end game modes I was talking about. And its not invalid if the forum post WAS ABOUT THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE! Learn to read, you just keep doubling down on being wrong. Stop it.

squallaus.8321:

That maybe true,

FINALLY! I’m getting somewhere. Yes, it is true. This is the point of the post. See, I see that you are struggling to keep to your own side. If you actually read the post you wouldn’t need to keep doubling down on being wrong. Just admit that you are wrong and lets move on. I hope this is a lesson for you to actually read the topic of discussion before making assumptions.

squallaus.8321:

You’re the one that is being ignorant here.

Coming from the guy who can’t read that’s laughable.

squallaus.8321:

No you don’t get to selectively choose what you personally like or dislike, discard it, then bash that specialization it is lacking or weak because you choose to ignore minions. Not over showed by others at all. I bet you the HP saved from the rapid condi cleansing provided by death magic out weights the extra health gained by transfusion. The only thing transfusion is good for is the teleport rez feature during clutch moments in 100CM runs. It is also good for trolling friends by teleporting them into the enemy while they are being rezzed.

Condition application in PvE is most frequently done in bursts. While you are slowly pulling conditions every 3 seconds a revenant could just pull all of the conditions onto herself and call it a day. And! she can repeat it plus gain resistance. Rapid? a single condition every 3 seconds is not rapid.(Oh and not to mention she gives resistance to allies…. But lets ignore that little fact, while your allies take unnecessary damage when they could have been given resistance.)

I actually excluded minions from this equation because they are not designed with supporting your allies in mind, nor were they designed with tanking in mind. Minions are for your personal benefit. They only indirectly benefit allies, much like dealing more DPS indirectly benefits allies. But if you actually read the post you’d have known that rather than being confused about it. You seem to have just skimmed the topic and were deeply and personally offended by what I posted without understanding the context. Which is why I say you can’t seem to read. Because you didn’t.

Who trolls people with transfusion? You must have garbage friends. Since I’ve always used it to pull allies out of DPS or in our last Sabetha kill, on the opposite side of the fire wall when a few people were downed. Transfusion is better support because the healers of the group, although they can heal can’t always save someone without risking their own skin.

Although I will admit to one mistake I’ve made. Your build isn’t a Niche. I’m sorry, that implies it has some use. I’m terribly sorry. Its a gimmick build. Not actually useful.

squallaus.8321:

Even though minions aren’t as good atm, in combination with death magic + blood magic, it still makes for a better rounded Tank build with party support than soul reaping + any other combination.

No… No it isn’t. Blood magic is were you get all the support from. Death does nothing for your support. And if you are so concerned about conditions, I’ve mentioned multiple times that Revenant does it far better than we do. Demon stance. But we don’t see Revenants in high end content. Why? Why than would we seen necromancers over revenants in high end content? Well, its actually because of the necromancer’s condition build. Not because of their support. Many players opt to not take any support, favoring Curses, Soul reaping and reaper. Death only came into the equation during that short window of time when Minions were good.

But I don’t want Death to be one note. And that was One of the points I was making in this Forum post. Death is a one note specialization. You don’t even argue that it isn’t. You can’t, you just double down on being wrong about everything.

squallaus.8321:

oh look who can’t dodge now? did I read that right? you get killed by stuns a lot? By the sound of things you died before the conditions kicks in. Maybe you are right in some aspects. For players that drop quickly like you during clutch moments maybe they really don’t need excellent condi cleanse provided by Death Magic. They’d be dead before they get to feel the hurt from the conditions.

Never said a lot. Also the enemies that tend to stun a lot don’t tend to use very many conditions. From what I’ve noticed its raw damage. Aka, you want to be able to soak damage, not worry about a few piddly conditions.

Also, no you didn’t read that right. Saying that its more of a problem isn’t saying that its a major problem. Don’t misconstrue my words.

Clutch moments? I’ve had a few, mostly on classes I’m less familiar with, such as engineer. Clutch on my necromancer though? As rare as a Precursor drop.

I should also point out that my primary roaming build on necromancer has quite a bit of condi cleans on it. Not for fear of the condis that foes apply to me, but because I apply conditions to myself. And the immobilization and Chill is annoying, but if those ever become a problem I can just take Relentless Pursuit… I don’t need to dedicate an entire trait line to get one trait. I can just change one trait around on a specialization I already use.

Anchoku.8142:

I realize Epidemic does not buff allies or heal and it does do amazing damage to add’s so it certainly looks like a dps skill.

However, unlike Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower, Epidemic does zero damage (or anything else) to the target, often a boss.

Epi’s main use in group PvE is trash mob suppression. For that reason, I place Epidemic in a defensive utility class.

In WvW, Epidemic has a dual function as trash mob suppression and zerg condi pressure, which are quite different.

Suppression is a control aspect. I’d just like to point that out, although I must make a note that This Forum post isn’t about epidemic so if we can get on topic that’d be nice. I’d like to know specifics about what your guys’s thoughts are on the suggestions.

Lily.1935:

You keep claiming I’m out of touch with the game when you’ve never given an example of how. I play all aspects of PvE, not just Fractals and Raids. (Which btw, Fractals has some of the hardest hitting conditions in the game and I still don’t need to rely on death.)

No I completely get you now. You’re the type of player that either not die or get killed in a couple of hits and therefore don’t need much condi cleansing. Which unbeknownst you is an extreme narrow view of what the players will experience in this game.

Lily.1935:

If that’s the case you are extremely bad at the game. Open world conditions are low damage most the time and the conditions that can actually hurt you(Aka in the living world and occasionally HoT maps) are few and far between. Not only that you don’t need to cleans them every 3 seconds if you’re an active and mobile player. And for the ones that do hit you hard they generally are extremely short duration.

You’re the one who dies before noticing the large array of conditions that could be inflicted on the players in this game. And its not every 3 seconds its more often than that with minion and trait support; scalable to fighting many enemies at once.

Lily.1935:

You didn’t correct anything, you showed your ignorance about how grouping works in the high end game modes I was talking about. And its not invalid if the forum post WAS ABOUT THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE! Learn to read, you just keep doubling down on being wrong. Stop it.

You’re the ignorant one who refuse to acknowledge how well minions work with death magic because of your inherent bias against minions dating as far back as your gw1 days.

Lily.1935:

FINALLY! I’m getting somewhere. Yes, it is true. This is the point of the post. See, I see that you are struggling to keep to your own side. If you actually read the post you wouldn’t need to keep doubling down on being wrong. Just admit that you are wrong and lets move on. I hope this is a lesson for you to actually read the topic of discussion before making assumptions.

While minions aren’t perfect, they work a lot better than you are claiming them to be. For one blood fiend alone is the best heal for necromancers in the pve mode. But of course you would rather take consumed conditions instead. Indirectly gimping yourself.

Lily.1935:

Coming from the guy who can’t read that’s laughable.

Laugh all you want delusional elitist. You are the one out of touch and have no idea how to make a tank build.

Lily.1935:

Condition application in PvE is most frequently done in bursts. While you are slowly pulling conditions every 3 seconds a revenant could just pull all of the conditions onto herself and call it a day. And! she can repeat it plus gain resistance. Rapid? a single condition every 3 seconds is not rapid.(Oh and not to mention she gives resistance to allies…. But lets ignore that little fact, while your allies take unnecessary damage when they could have been given resistance.)

It not 1 per 3 second. It is 1 condition per minion every 10 seconds from all party members + 3 per 3 second with plague signet on. Blood fiend, golum, rise that give up to 6 minions and some jaggered horrors that is a lot of condition removal support for the whole party. While you are in shroud, you lose plague signet support and you pull conditions from minions and allies, and minions pull them back from you or they get cleansed by shrouded removal. It is way more powerful than what you make death magic out to be. While minions are not perfect they work extremely well with death magic. So well to the point I’d argue against getting rid of minions, which you have kept on asking for, but instead improve the minions control mechanic.

Lily.1935:

I actually excluded minions from this equation because they are not designed with supporting your allies in mind, nor were they designed with tanking in mind. Minions are for your personal benefit. They only indirectly benefit allies, much like dealing more DPS indirectly benefits allies. But if you actually read the post you’d have known that rather than being confused about it. You seem to have just skimmed the topic and were deeply and personally offended by what I posted without understanding the context. Which is why I say you can’t seem to read. Because you didn’t.

Oh there you go with the holier than thou attitude. Oh of course the necromancer shouldn’t be able to assist team members. What makes you think minions aren’t designed with support in mind? What makes you think they aren’t designed with tanking in mind? The trait Necromatic Corruption and the utility skill Rise suggest other wise.

Lily.1935:

Who trolls people with transfusion? You must have garbage friends. Since I’ve always used it to pull allies out of DPS or in our last Sabetha kill, on the opposite side of the fire wall when a few people were downed. Transfusion is better support because the healers of the group, although they can heal can’t always save someone without risking their own skin.

That trait has always been a double edged sword. Before you use shroud 4, you always have to take note of whether your allies are still up or not. If you don’t take precaution it will land the allies in deeper strife than they would have been.

Lily.1935:

Although I will admit to one mistake I’ve made. Your build isn’t a Niche. I’m sorry, that implies it has some use. I’m terribly sorry. Its a gimmick build. Not actually useful.

A gimmick build that boasts the best group support for the necromancer in terms of condition removal and transfer as well as a tank build that provides the best rounded coverage in terms of survival, all empowered by Death Magic + Blood Magic synergy. You certainly aren’t biased at all when selecting what builds to use.

Lily.1935:

No… No it isn’t. Blood magic is were you get all the support from. Death does nothing for your support. And if you are so concerned about conditions, I’ve mentioned multiple times that Revenant does it far better than we do. Demon stance. But we don’t see Revenants in high end content. Why? Why than would we seen necromancers over revenants in high end content? Well, its actually because of the necromancer’s condition build. Not because of their support. Many players opt to not take any support, favoring Curses, Soul reaping and reaper. Death only came into the equation during that short window of time when Minions were good.

Nope, blood magic fueling life force with Unholy Martyr could potentially have dire consequences. But because the condition removal via minions and condition cleansing by shrouded removal is so good, you can now take Unholy Martyr freely without any worries. That is trait synergy.

Lily.1935:

But I don’t want Death to be one note. And that was One of the points I was making in this Forum post. Death is a one note specialization. You don’t even argue that it isn’t. You can’t, you just double down on being wrong about everything.

Or maybe your bias against death magic prevents you from seeing there are more than 1 good trait in there. And the good ones are just enough to make for a very well rounded tank build. Better than Soul Reaping + other combinations.

Lily.1935:

Never said a lot. Also the enemies that tend to stun a lot don’t tend to use very many conditions. From what I’ve noticed its raw damage. Aka, you want to be able to soak damage, not worry about a few piddly conditions.

Also, no you didn’t read that right. Saying that its more of a problem isn’t saying that its a major problem. Don’t misconstrue my words.

Clutch moments? I’ve had a few, mostly on classes I’m less familiar with, such as engineer. Clutch on my necromancer though? As rare as a Precursor drop.

I should also point out that my primary roaming build on necromancer has quite a bit of condi cleans on it. Not for fear of the condis that foes apply to me, but because I apply conditions to myself. And the immobilization and Chill is annoying, but if those ever become a problem I can just take Relentless Pursuit… I don’t need to dedicate an entire trait line to get one trait. I can just change one trait around on a specialization I already use.

Sounds like a case of being carried by your party than the other way round. Any one who has prevented their party from wiping will tell you other wise.

squallaus.8321:

Lily.1935:

But I don’t want Death to be one note. And that was One of the points I was making in this Forum post. Death is a one note specialization. You don’t even argue that it isn’t. You can’t, you just double down on being wrong about everything.

Or maybe your bias against death magic prevents you from seeing there are more than 1 good trait in there. And the good ones are just enough to make for a very well rounded tank build. Better than Soul Reaping + other combinations.

He is right though. Not counting minion traits (which lily exluded) only shrouded removel is decent. The minors are ether medicore (armored shroud, beyond the veil) or outright terrible (soul comprehension). The grandmasters are undertuned (unholy sanctury needs a number buff) and medicore (corruptors frevor). The masters are boring/medicore (stat conversion) or bad (reapers protection) and purid defense is also meh.

So overall if you dont run minions, deathmagic is medicore at best. So like lily correctly said deathmagic is a one note specialistation.

Except lily also keep claiming minions are bad and condition removal is a non issue. Both of which are untrue. Then he goes on about how minions are not suppose to be for group support and tank build. BS. Minions boost both areas. Never mind death magic, blood magic is equality pathetic without minions. The supposed healing/sustain from blood magic simply isn’t good enough without minions assistance. Death magic having bad traits was never a contention. But the good ones are really good.

squallaus.8321:

Except lily also keep claiming minions are bad and condition removal is a non issue. Both of which are untrue. Then he goes on about how minions are not suppose to be for group support and tank build. BS. Minions boost both areas. Never mind death magic, blood magic is equality pathetic without minions. The supposed healing/sustain from blood magic simply isn’t good enough without minions assistance. Death magic having bad traits was never a contention. But the good ones are really good.

Said Minions were not in a good spot. And Shrouded removal was superfluous.

Also…. um… Lily is a girl’s name…

Alright, gonna take a look at some of your solutions from a WvW perspective.
I’d argue your version of Soul Comprehension should be baseline. What could be done with SC is make it an effect similar to Signet of Undeath, turning it into passive LF generation in addition to its current effect, which would be kept purely for flavour reasons.
Beyond the veil is strong enough as is. It gives you protection when you are most vulnerable, right as you leave shroud. Death is also a personal survivability line and throwing in a bit of support seems weird to me.
Putrid Defense does not need increased poison duration, it needs a way to reliably trigger on weapons outside of scepter and staff. MH axe, GS, dagger, focus and warhorn can’t actually utilize it without either using CPC or getting a regen corrupt.
Your variant of Shrouded Removal would basically make Reaper immune to condition builds when fighting in any kind of group. Suffer and Plague Signet would remove even the strongest condi applications and the latter can go down to around 13s CD. Stray condis inbetween cooldowns can easily be handled by either group cleanses or you pressing any of your other buttons.
Deadly Strength removal kills the Master tier of Death for power builds.
Unholy Sanctuary would be better off with a new effect altogether. How about this, gain health whenever you gain life force. When struck while below 50% health, reset the cooldown on shroud. 20s ICD on the second effect.
As for the healing and lifestealing bit, necro needs the skills to operate in a support role first. Right now, the only thing Blood really changes is Shroud 4, due to transfusion. Outside of that, you are still a necro, doing necro things, but you provide some passive sustain to your group. I’d also argue that Blood Bond needs a change to how it works. Maybe “Allies steal life from targets suffering from your bleeds” because right now, it has the same issue that Putrid Defense has in that most builds can barely use it. Even if you get the bleeds, which is possible with condition transfer, you can’t control where the trait itself goes. Would also mean that we finally have a healing option in the adept tier.
The changes to SR’s master tier would not improving trait diversity much, I feel. Spectral Mastery is good but only when you are already taking a couple spectrals. Having both it, double armor and full Vital Persistence might also be a bit much.
Cultist’s Fervour is a neat idea but I’d rather see this as an F2 for an elite spec.

Also, squallaus. Minions are bad. Some have some use in PvE but that is pretty much the only place where they are used effectively. The entire skill category needs to be reworked from the ground up.

CCLegion.5936:

Alright, gonna take a look at some of your solutions from a WvW perspective.
I’d argue your version of Soul Comprehension should be baseline. What could be done with SC is make it an effect similar to Signet of Undeath, turning it into passive LF generation in addition to its current effect, which would be kept purely for flavour reasons.

I’m glad you like the idea and I think you have a point for part of it. The summoned creatures part. However the life force gain from death’s while in shroud is a unique enough ability that I’d still argue that it should be a unique feature for death magic. Now I mentioned after the fact that mesmer clones shouldn’t fuel this because of how difficult of a time mesmer’s would have fighting necromancer’s with a change like this.

CCLegion.5936:

Beyond the veil is strong enough as is. It gives you protection when you are most vulnerable, right as you leave shroud. Death is also a personal survivability line and throwing in a bit of support seems weird to me.

This might be more along my desire to support as a necromancer since I’ve been craving that style of game play ever since I made the transition over from GW1 to GW2. I’ll admit my bias here.

CCLegion.5936:

Putrid Defense does not need increased poison duration, it needs a way to reliably trigger on weapons outside of scepter and staff. MH axe, GS, dagger, focus and warhorn can’t actually utilize it without either using CPC or getting a regen corrupt.

I’d disagree. It wouldn’t compare to Shrouded removal even with my changes if it didn’t provide something else. As for support, I did create more internal support for this and thought about other aspects of the specialization where it could work. Poison is common enough that I feel its justified with the internal and external synergy that’s there and suggested.

Death as an attribute in GW1 was also known for 2 things, primarily. Minions, its condition game. Discordway was a famous build in GW1 and this was the attribute that allowed access to GW1’s most annoying condition. Disease. Poison was also rampant in Death so pushing a poison theme is absolutely fitting for this trait line.

CCLegion.5936:

Your variant of Shrouded Removal would basically make Reaper immune to condition builds when fighting in any kind of group. Suffer and Plague Signet would remove even the strongest condi applications and the latter can go down to around 13s CD. Stray condis inbetween cooldowns can easily be handled by either group cleanses or you pressing any of your other buttons.

Perhaps one condition than? I’m personally not too keen on this trait as is if we were to get utility in shroud. I feel it would be too strong with the utility it would gain. I’m open for suggestions.

CCLegion.5936:

Deadly Strength removal kills the Master tier of Death for power builds.

Not actually a concern of mine. Deadly strength isn’t good anyway and pushing power in Death magic was something that always felt off. Again, As a GW1 vet death was always about that condition game and minion game. So pushing power to me feels wrong. If its that big of a deal, there is always the boring option of having toughness increase power and condition damage based on toughness. But those passive stat increases outside of minors always feel gross to me.

Unholy Sanctuary would be better off with a new effect altogether. How about this, gain health whenever you gain life force. When struck while below 50% health, reset the cooldown on shroud. 20s ICD on the second effect.

Why? With Vampiric Signet, Signet of Locus, Blood fiend along with blood magic, my changes would bring the minor loss in healing you’d take from Unholy Sanctuary would be well made up for from your utility. Having a way to regenerate life force Would be more useful. And would be more on point for death magic than a strange out of place trait that gives healing to yourself.

CCLegion.5936:

As for the healing and lifestealing bit, necro needs the skills to operate in a support role first. Right now, the only thing Blood really changes is Shroud 4, due to transfusion. Outside of that, you are still a necro, doing necro things, but you provide some passive sustain to your group. I’d also argue that Blood Bond needs a change to how it works. Maybe “Allies steal life from targets suffering from your bleeds” because right now, it has the same issue that Putrid Defense has in that most builds can barely use it. Even if you get the bleeds, which is possible with condition transfer, you can’t control where the trait itself goes. Would also mean that we finally have a healing option in the adept tier.

I’d argue that the life stealing change I’ve suggested is a long time coming. As for external use for it? Well, life syphon, Signet of Locus, Signet of Vampirism would be impacted by this change. Not to mention Soul Eater from Reaper. WIth external support we do actually have a bit, the aforementioned Signet of Vampirism but also well of blood, Blood is power, well of power, Signet of Undeath, Mark of blood, Reaper’s Touch, Spectral Wall and Lich Form. How good each of these are is debatable to not that good. But that’s more an argument that I should have included them in my suggestions, which I can agree with. I should have.

CCLegion.5936:

The changes to SR’s master tier would not improving trait diversity much, I feel. Spectral Mastery is good but only when you are already taking a couple spectrals. Having both it, double armor and full Vital Persistence might also be a bit much.
Cultist’s Fervour is a neat idea but I’d rather see this as an F2 for an elite spec.

You think so? I’m not so convinced by that. But I’m willing to listen to why. Plus with Cultist’s Fervour competing with it I feel it honestly gives you an extremely interesting choice between the two for power. Do I take the reduced cool downs but burn through my shroud much quicker, sacrificing defenses or do I take Spectral mastery and sustain better? I feel that’s a really meaningful choice to make. And I still feel that if a terror build ever shows back up this change will need to happen otherwise Vital Persistence is still just going to outshine it.

I feel the issue here is more with the fact that WvW balance requires very different ideas than PvE or even PvP when we’re talking about the necromancer. And I honestly don’t have much experience with WvW since it gives me a headache.