Guild Wars 2

OreoWolf.9564:

One of the ways they would like to fx this is to nerf terror; reducing its damage OR making it a grandmaster trait.

No, ANet (Jon Sharp, more specifically) said nothing of the sort. These were Zombify’s suggestions.

I really am getting tired of repeating myself over an over on this. People clearly didn’t pay attention to who was saying what during the SotG, just what was being said.

Literally the ONLY thing Jon Sharp stated for nerfing the Terror builds was the change to the Sigil of Paralyzation. He agreed that between the bleed stacks, Torment, Dhuumfire, and Terror, we had too much pressure, but seeing as how Terror actually got nerfed this past patch (moving from Adept to Master is definitely a nerf, even if not a huge one), and it was not overpowered beforehand, I highly doubt that Terror itself will be changed for a while.

I can’t believe people are calling OP on this… It’s stupid. Actually I can believe it, but it’s still stupid. The damage is great in PvE, but in PvP people shrug off conditions so fast it makes me dizzy.

If you sit there and let all of my conditions tick their full duration AND you refuse to exploit my complete lack of stability, then you deserve to die.

Xenon.4537:

If you sit there and let all of my conditions tick their full duration AND you refuse to exploit my complete lack of stability, then you deserve to die.

…said the necro, who never played any other class.

Btw the extra damage in PvE is just meh… not only for burning itself but duration stacking conditions are always in danger of being canceled out by other players.
So if you go 30 in Spite you’re most of the time better off taking Close to Death.

flow.6043:

Apparently we are in disagreement about what a glass canon is.

The “glass” part of the term comes from being fragile, as in not having the toughness or vitality you’d usually get from rabid or carrion. That applies to berserker or rampager, anything else is just a canon if you still get high damage with it.

So again, rabid (or carrion) means your build is not glassy, period. But it so happens that this prefix gets you the highest damage out of Dhuumfire and Terror, so there really is no trade-off for damage vs defense here.

Ok, while i see what you’re saying about the tradeoffs with going GC and having some protection, I think you are overlooking one major difference, and that is the necro’s complete lack of escapes, blocks, invulns, etc.

For example, if a GC thief or GC mesmer go full GC, they have invis/stealth, blinks, shadowsteps, etc that completely allows them to engage, do a large spike damage and get the heck out if they need to. They don’t need to face tank any damage when going full GC because they can dish it out and then get out. Eles can do the same thing, huge mobility, combined with alternative heals that allow them to rush in, deal out some large aoe spike damage, and get out if needed. Guardians can block, or go invulnerable for a short period, granted they are not as good at getting out. Warriors can go in, lay waste to a single target, and i have seen them escape better than ELE’s doing ride the lighting.

A GC necro goes in, maybe lays waste, and is stuck to either kill, and finish it out, or face tank it and likely go down. I don’t think that you are considering the huge cost we have. So maybe ANET figures we have more toughness in even our spike condition builds because we have no way at all to block, go invulnerable, blink, shadowstep, or go invisible to mitgate a return spike. We do have life force generation and what people say is 2 hit point pools, but on a spike condition build, that is totally out to lunch because once your in a fight, you are not getting it back very fast, and the longer the fight goes, the more disadvantage you are. Thus I think we are fine if the entire meta is taken into consideration. Necros have pitiful dodges, have no blocks, have no invulnerability, have no invis, have no blinks, and thus have no way to mitigate damage but facetanking with life force and normal hps. We have limited heals, once every 30 seconds (granted its a great heal) its still only every 30 seconds. Our vampric skills are still pitiful let alone from the fact that we cannot heal our normal pool in death shroud.

So when you get all argumentative about the state of our ability to lay on conditions thick and stsill get toughness, consider our entire lack of anything else.

You want a case in point: Look at videos of 4 D/D ELEs taking on 30 people.

Look at videos of mesmer GC builds holding a point vs 3 attackers, or holding off 10 people, downing 1 or 2 and getting out. Look at Yisish’s video of one solo D/D thief (0/30/30/10/0) build killing tail ends of zergs, solo, with no help. Look at guardians tanking 2-3 point attackers.

Try that with 1 necro, and watch the necro eat kitten. Try 2-3 necros against 6+ people and watch those necros get CC ping ponged and down. It is just a huge tradeoff and i dont feel kitten for people complaining about our damage out put at this point.

It has been said before and even has its own thread, however I’m going to say it here. Terror just got nerfed (moved from minor to major trait) which throws off one of my builds. I’m not entirely upset about that as, even if I don’t agree, I can completely understand the move. The addition of Dhuumfire seems to be causing terror to be OPed according to most, so let’s fix that.

Change Dhuumfire to something like Dhuumtorment and instead of stacking fire it stacks some torment. This isn’t much different than bleeding and shouldn’t break things and it fits better to necromancer gameplay, lore, flavor, and tactics. This way we fix the problem and not break Terror (especially in PvE where a Terror nerf would make it near useless).

Gryph.8237:

Ok, while i see what you’re saying about the tradeoffs with going GC and having some protection, I think you are overlooking one major difference, and that is the necro’s complete lack of escapes, blocks, invulns, etc.

I’m not overlooking it, I’m very aware of the necro’s shortcomings. But I don’t understand why people feel entitled to more damage because of them.
Survivability and damage are two very different issues.

They may be two different issues, but if you want to talk balance you have to take into consideration the big picture. You cant keep touting that they are two different issues, if in combination they interact to create a class that stands out from the typical meta.

And I don’t believe that the damage output from necros is any more than other classes can achieve in the current meta.

That said, if they were to give necros a different/signature protective/evasive manuever and tone down some of our damage as a trade off, so be it. If not, if they want us to continue face tanking damage, with no ability to mitigate it outside of a heal, and with no ability to generate life force then don’t take away my damage, because i take a “best defense is a good offense appraoch” and I don’t want to be weakened on that front.

flow.6043:

Gryph.8237:

Ok, while i see what you’re saying about the tradeoffs with going GC and having some protection, I think you are overlooking one major difference, and that is the necro’s complete lack of escapes, blocks, invulns, etc.

I’m not overlooking it, I’m very aware of the necro’s shortcomings. But I don’t understand why people feel entitled to more damage because of them.
Survivability and damage are two very different issues.

It’s the same issue. If a full cleric Guardian could hit as hard as a glass thief, there is clearly a balance issue between their survivability and damage output.

Necromancers have the option to run a massive amount of pressure, and by doing so have become targets. Over the past week, I’ve noticed more and more group fights (3v3, 3v5, 5v5, etc…) where I’m being trained the entire fight, that’s because those people are adapting and realizing the counter to a Necromancer is killing them. I can output this pressure, but I can only output it for so long; my end goal is to unload the pressure as quickly as possible so they can’t kill me, because they’re dead. And while that does work against some teams, and some people stand still and suck their thumb while I unload every condition I have and then Epidemic them, the people who adapt have the wherewithal to remove my conditions and then start pressuring me.

If a Necromancer runs this build, they have chosen to run the “glass cannon” equivalent. They’re going for maximum damage, and you guessed it, that means running armor that focuses on Condition Damage; you keep bringing up Rampager like it’s some sort of armor you would run as a Condition Necro, when it doesn’t even focus on Condition Damage. The glass cannon doesn’t come from their health and armor though, it comes from their inability to avoid damage.

A Necromancer running this is glass cannon because they die to pressure.
A Mesmer running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Thief running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Warrior running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to pressure.

Oh hey, on that note, Warriors (who can hit incredibly hard with mainhand Axe) have an extra 289 armor inherently, which is higher than the 224 Necromancers get from Rabid armor. Does that mean Warriors are some sort of survivable DPS god? Hey, running Knight’s Armor and Zerk Trinkets, they get the same toughness a Necro would get from Rabid, and still hit 8k with Evis instantly.

People need time to Adapt. They didn’t come out of the womb knowing how to avoid Thief backstabs, and they didn’t come out of the womb knowing how to avoid Necromancer pressure.

Just give it time, people will learn how to deal with Necros.

Well the sad thing is terror not only got a nerf last patch but will take another hit soon. All for dhuumfire… I don’t even dislike the idea It’s just not needed. The fear to spectral wall was the best thing anet thought of for attrition/condition builds. That with the well buffs made alot of things better.

I would like to thank Anet for giving Dhummfire as a sort of present to the necro community and im not really trying to sound ungrateful. In all honesty it just upsets me that so many more necros are showing up just for the bursty condition meta builds. I think Anet intended to be a bit over-the-top with some of the buffs given to necros for the long-term disappointment. It’s not unexpected that soon they will nerf some of their extra buffings to comply with current standards and then the patch-leaching necros will go back to playing their mesmers and whatnot lol.

It would suck if terror is punished for the recent meta condition/burst opness.

Da Sonic.6521:

I’m being trained the entire fight, that’s because those people are adapting and realizing the counter to a Necromancer is killing them.

I’d say the counter to every class is killing them, but whatever…
Anyway, what you are describing is nothing new, and it’s certainly not because of the damage you do.
Necros are the easiest to kill, they were pre-patch and they are now, that’s why other players focus on you.

Da Sonic.6521:

If a Necromancer runs this build, they have chosen to run the “glass cannon” equivalent. They’re going for maximum damage, and you guessed it, that means running armor that focuses on Condition Damage;

You just don’t get it.
Glass cannon doesn’t mean what you are describing here.
If maximum damage was all that is required to run a GC build, then every necro with pure rabid or carrion (or a mix of both) would match that description.

Da Sonic.6521:

you keep bringing up Rampager like it’s some sort of armor you would run as a Condition Necro, when it doesn’t even focus on Condition Damage.

Actually yes, that is an armor a condition necro would use.
But that is not why I mentioned it. Rampager’s gear doesn’t have any defensive attributes, neither has berserker’s. And that is what makes a glass cannon “glassy”:
High offense at the cost of low defense.
And this does not apply to rabid.

Da Sonic.6521:

The glass cannon doesn’t come from their health and armor though, it comes from their inability to avoid damage.

Huh? Now you’re just arguing against yourself.
Avoiding damage alltogether is irrelevant to what prefix or trait choices you made for your build.

Da Sonic.6521:

A Necromancer running this is glass cannon because they die to pressure.
A Mesmer running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Thief running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Warrior running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to pressure.

What?
Every class can die to all kinds of damage…
And again, you don’t understand what glass cannon means.

Da Sonic.6521:

People need time to Adapt.

There’s only so much you can do, which for some classes just isn’t enough. That won’t change, there’s no way to adept any more than players already do.

flow.6043:

Bull Zooker.1672:

the only thing I would disagree with is that I think my 0/30/20/20/0 build is more survivable than the 0/30/20/0/20 build, I have played alot of time with both and have full rabbid and full carrion sets of armor. I find carrion armor and rabbid trinkets are the best combination for survivability and damage. I have 25k hp, 2.2 armor (maybe more) and 1400 condition damage before stacks and food which is nice.

I also dont rely on life stealing/vampire traits.

Alright, so in your case a switch to 30/20/20/0/0 from you current 0/30/20/20/0 build would mean you lose 200 vitality… and that’s it. You could still have your carrion/rabid gear with 23k hp and 2.2k armor. There’s absolutely nothing glassy about this, yet it’s all you need to pull off a Dhuum/Terror build.

So I call bs when someone says those builds are squishy.

i wasn’t arguing with you flow… but you say I lose 200 vitality and thats it… I actually lose a good amount of regeneration and condition transfer through faster dagger recharge, more uptime on weakness.

im not saying that 30/20/20/0/0 is squishy. im saying thakittens possible for us necromancers to be very effective without burning and terror, bleeding is very powerful when done right.

terror and dhuumfire are CHOICES not NECESSITIES. < my point.

Oh, I didn’t mean to argue with you either.
You were the only one who posted his trait choices with hp and armor stats, so I just took that to make an example.

flow.6043:

Da Sonic.6521:

I’m being trained the entire fight, that’s because those people are adapting and realizing the counter to a Necromancer is killing them.

I’d say the counter to every class is killing them, but whatever…
Anyway, what you are describing is nothing new, and it’s certainly not because of the damage you do.
Necros are the easiest to kill, they were pre-patch and they are now, that’s why other players focus on you.

Da Sonic.6521:

If a Necromancer runs this build, they have chosen to run the “glass cannon” equivalent. They’re going for maximum damage, and you guessed it, that means running armor that focuses on Condition Damage;

You just don’t get it.
Glass cannon doesn’t mean what you are describing here.
If maximum damage was all that is required to run a GC build, then every necro with pure rabid or carrion (or a mix of both) would match that description.

Da Sonic.6521:

you keep bringing up Rampager like it’s some sort of armor you would run as a Condition Necro, when it doesn’t even focus on Condition Damage.

Actually yes, that is an armor a condition necro would use.
But that is not why I mentioned it. Rampager’s gear doesn’t have any defensive attributes, neither has berserker’s. And that is what makes a glass cannon “glassy”:
High offense at the cost of low defense.
And this does not apply to rabid.

Da Sonic.6521:

The glass cannon doesn’t come from their health and armor though, it comes from their inability to avoid damage.

Huh? Now you’re just arguing against yourself.
Avoiding damage alltogether is irrelevant to what prefix or trait choices you made for your build.

Da Sonic.6521:

A Necromancer running this is glass cannon because they die to pressure.
A Mesmer running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Thief running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Warrior running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to pressure.

What?
Every class can die to all kinds of damage…
And again, you don’t understand what glass cannon means.

Da Sonic.6521:

People need time to Adapt.

There’s only so much you can do, which for some classes just isn’t enough. That won’t change, there’s no way to adept any more than players already do.

I’m talking about the build as a whole when I refer to glass cannon. They do a lot of damage, and as you very clearly just stated, “Necros are the easiest to kill, they were pre-patch and they are now, that’s why other players focus on you.” If being able to do a lot of damage while being the easiest to kill isn’t the definition of glass cannon, you’re right, I must not get it.

The way you seem to define glass cannon is that if I have a piece of armor that gives me 1 Power, 1 Precision, and 1 Crit Damage, I’m more of a glass cannon than someone running 2 Power, 2 Precision, 2 Crit Damage, and 1 Toughness. It doesn’t work like that. I do more damage with the second set, even if it just so happens to give me more defense as well.

Direct Damage glass cannons don’t run no defensive stats on armor for the hell of it, it just so happens that for direct damage, the most damage you can get is from Berserker armor, which has no defensive stats. It also just so happens that for condition damage, the most damage you can get is with Rabid/Carrion gear, because it focuses on Condition Damage.

I don’t know why you seem to be arguing that max damage isn’t a quality of glass cannon. You focus your entire build around doing damage, so you wouldn’t run less defense if that also meant you has less offense. You build for maximum damage, whether or not that means you accidentally take defensive things too.

You just don’t get it.

Da Sonic,

Could you explain me how you can manage to have better offensive stats if you use a part of it to be defensive ?
Do you have a magical recipe to turn a power/precision/crit damage gear into a power/precision/crit damage/toughness one and more,with twice the offensive stats of the first one ?
The concept of a glass canon is to go full damage and no defense (but the natural defensive stats of the class).You can’t add toughness or vitality without losing some dps.A condition necro could only be considered as a glass canon if he goes 30 30 0 0 10/30 20 0 0 20 with a rampager amulet and a power necro 30 10 0 0 30/30 20 0 0 20 with a berserker amulet.

Da Sonic.6521:

“Necros are the easiest to kill, they were pre-patch and they are now, that’s why other players focus on you.” If being able to do a lot of damage while being the easiest to kill isn’t the definition of glass cannon, you’re right, I must not get it.

This is true even for the most tanky necro builds, it’s our class mechanic, the lack of mobility/boons etc that makes us easy targets. This has nothing to do with being a glass cannon or not.

As for the rest of your arguments, I don’t know what else to tell you… maybe you’re just trolling me at this point.
High offense at the cost of low defense. If you can have high damage and a good defense at the same time then you don’t fulfill the “glass” criteria, hence you’re not a glass cannon… just a cannon.

mons.1386:

A condition necro could only be considered as a glass canon if he goes 30 30 0 0 10/30 20 0 0 20 with a rampager amulet and a power necro 30 10 0 0 30/30 20 0 0 20 with a berserker amulet.

See? He gets it.