Guild Wars 2

Let me start my saying that this thread is derived from my personal experience trying to create viable builds for tPvp as well as Pve. I understand that many people might disagree with me on this issue and that is fine, but this is where I feel the Necromancer goes wrong. This is not a thread about the way the necromancer’s actual traits are arranged but instead about how stat bonuses are organized between trait lines and synergy between Necro weapons and trait spreads.

As with all other classes, the Necro has 5 trait lines, but its trait attribute bonuses (power, toughness, etc) are distributed in a unique and confusing way.

Spite: Power and Condition Duration
Curses: Precision and Condition Damage (!)
Death Magic: Toughness and Boon Duration
Blood Magic: Healing and Vitality
Soul Reaping: Crit Damage and Life Force Pool

Without discussing any other variables such as individual traits and sigils, it is clear that Curses is a peculiarity. Precision and Condition Damage are about as far away from synergetic as one can get. For example, Spite combos well with weapons such as the Axe or mainhand Dagger (Vulnerability or Immobilize duration). Death Magic increases toughness and boons such as regeneration or retaliation which is clearly synergetic. Blood Magic is probably the Necro’s most coherent trait line (and why siphon builds work so well). Finally Soul Reaping pairs the powerful attack life blast with high crit damage.

Then there is the Curses line. Curses is different in a bad way. Apart from Barbed Precision (66% chance to cause bleeding on critical hits), Precision and Condition Damage are completely unconnected in the trait line. This essentially means that a person who wants to create a Crit or condition damage based Necro build must try and find a way to dish out damage both with critical hits and condition damage, or else waste 300 points in either stat.

For example, I have a build that I call the Ragereaper.

It looks something like this:

Dagger/Warhorn & Axe/Focus

Runes of Rage (Crit Damage/20% Fury Duration) and Berserker’s Amulet

10 5
30 4,8,12
0
0
30 3,7,12

What this build does is essentially flip between Death Shroud causing Retaliation for 3sec, Enfeebling blood cast, and Fury for 5 seconds. It then has a 25% chance to cause weakness on targets from Curses #12. This means that if everything is working correctly I have about a 70% crit chance and weakness on the target at most times (because enfeebling blood also causes weakness).

However! Although this build sounds good on paper…the fact is that the Curses trait line also has condition damage, meaning that I’m essentially wasting 300 points of condition damage. That is a big deal. And I know some people are going to say: Well, just toss on some sigils of bloodlust and cause bleeding, but ultimately that mechanic isn’t really strong enough to be viable.

Now let’s take a look at other classes. If I log onto my thief here is what I’m presented with:

Deadly Arts: Power and Condition Duration
Critical Strikes: Precision and Critical Damage
Shadow Arts: Toughness and Healing
Acrobatics: Vitality and Boon Duration
Trickery: Condition Damage and Steal Recharge Rate

Looking at this, the immediate thing that stands out to me is Critical Strikes, and the fact that Precision and Critical Damage and grouped together… Perfect Synergy.

Edit: Also mesmers, rangers, elementalists have precision + crit damage grouped together.

So… All other light armor classes have Precision and Crit Damage grouped together except for Necro.

This is one of the biggest reasons the Necro is so hard to build for.

Thieves, Rangers, Elementalists and Mesmers can easily fill out their second trait line for high Critical chance and damage.

In my opinion, the Necro trait lines should be swapped something like this:

Spite: Precision and Critical Damage
Curses: Condition Damage and Duration
-
-
Soul Reaping: Power and Life Force Pool

This would have to be balanced slightly (as well as traits rearranged between the two trait lines), but what it does:

What this would do (after balancing and trait rearrangement):

-Enable a full burst Death Shroud Necro (With Spite and Soul Reaping)

-Allow for a true ‘Conditionmancer’

-Well & Minion Builds would remain viable

I realize my suggestion might actually be overly optimized and require a ton of balancing… but it just bugs me to no end knowing EVERY OTHER class has Precision and Crit grouped together except Necro.

In order to get a desirable power/crit necro build, currently you’d be spread pretty thin across Spite, Curses, and Soul Reaping… With the condition damage of Curses as a wasted asset.

And uh….I guess that’s the end of my thread for now. I’ll revise later.

infantrydiv.1620:

(…) the immediate thing that stands out to me is Critical Strikes, and the fact that Precision and Critical Damage and grouped together… Perfect Synergy.

Warriors, and Rangers also have this grouping. Oh… and Mesmers. Wait… Guardians too… And Elementalists… And Engineers.

So… All other classes have Precision and Crit Damage grouped together except for Necro.

This is one of the biggest reasons the Necro is so hard to build for.

All other classes can easily fill out their second trait line for high critical rates and damage…except for the Necro.
(…)

I realize my suggestion might actually be overly optimized and require a ton of balancing… but it just bugs me to no end knowing EVERY OTHER class has Precision and Crit grouped together except Necro.

Engineers, Warriors, and Guardians also have precision paired with condition damage. Their critical damage (prowess) is also paired with their profession-specific stat, with the exception of Guardians, who have it paired with toughness.

So half of the professions have the precision / prowess pair, and half do not.

That said, I’m going to look through and try to give this proper feedback, I just had to get that out of the way first.

Edit: I see where you’re going with the proposed swaps, but I don’t think it will happen. By and large, trait lines force hybridization, rather than encouraging a player to funnel every stat possible into one spot. This is partly due to the pairings, but further reinforced by the way you max out a line at 30 points.

Not to mention that you’ve got two secondary stats paired together, as well as two primaries. (The profession specific stat boost is considered a primary for the purposes of trait line pairs. I’m not sure why this is a constant across the game, but I think the idea is that a primary is more or less useful on everyone, but a secondary is more niche in its very nature. That sounds kind of weak though; I’d love to hear a better explanation.)

infantrydiv.1620:

Warriors, and Rangers also have this grouping. Oh… and Mesmers. Wait… Guardians too… And Elementalists… And Engineers.

So… All other classes have Precision and Crit Damage grouped together except for Necro.

This is one of the biggest reasons the Necro is so hard to build for.

All other classes can easily fill out their second trait line for high critical rates and damage…except for the Necro.

You couldn’t be bothered to check the wiki before writing this post?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Radiance
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arms
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firearms

Wow my bad guys I’ll change it… This is embarassing haha

Edit: I see where you’re going with the proposed swaps, but I don’t think it will happen. By and large, trait lines force hybridization, rather than encouraging a player to funnel every stat possible into one spot. This is partly due to the pairings, but further reinforced by the way you max out a line at 30 points.

Not to mention that you’ve got two secondary stats paired together, as well as two primaries. (The profession specific stat boost is considered a primary for the purposes of trait line pairs. I’m not sure why this is a constant across the game, but I think the idea is that a primary is more or less useful on everyone, but a secondary is more niche in its very nature. That sounds kind of weak though; I’d love to hear a better explanation.)

Thinking more about it…one of the big problems for me is that Soul Reaping is a trait which by the nature of it’s attacks really does not work well with condition damage (except for #2)… But having critical damage paired with it means that if I wanted to use death shroud to deal damage I’d want to pair it with Curses.

I feel like a condition damage/condition duration pair on the necromancer would be a very cool unique trait line… (I didn’t really think about condition damage as being a secondary stat…probably because it’s my main source of damage on my normal necro build).

I guess rather than change the trait line groupings it would be easier to simply add more traits which are similar to Barbed Precision.

infantrydiv.1620:

In my opinion, the Necro trait lines should be swapped something like this:

Spite: Precision and Critical Damage
Curses: Condition Damage and Duration
-
-
Soul Reaping: Power and Life Force Pool

What this would do:

-Enable a full burst Death Shroud Necro (With Spite and Soul Reaping)

-Allow for a true ‘Conditionmancer’

Let’s say your full death shrowd power burst necro goes 30/10/-/-/30 with your new trait lines. The only difference now is that you have 200 more precision. Is this really all that is bothering you? That’s just 10% crit chance, you can easily make up for that with gear. Replacing the 20% condition duration on the other hand is much harder.

You also have to keep in mind that trait lines as they are support the necros utilities and traits a lot better than your proposal. Powermancers also apply all kinds of cc conditions… so having power paired with condition duration does of course make more sense for the necro than it would for a thief.

Also, I wasn’t aware that with the current traits you can’t build a “true conditionmancer”…?

flow.6043:

infantrydiv.1620:

In my opinion, the Necro trait lines should be swapped something like this:

Spite: Precision and Critical Damage
Curses: Condition Damage and Duration
-
-
Soul Reaping: Power and Life Force Pool

What this would do:

-Enable a full burst Death Shroud Necro (With Spite and Soul Reaping)

-Allow for a true ‘Conditionmancer’

Let’s say your full death shrowd power burst necro goes 30/10/-/-/30 with your new trait lines. The only difference now is that you have 200 more precision. Is this really all that is bothering you? That’s just 10% crit chance, you can easily make up for that with gear. Replacing the 20% condition duration on the other hand is much harder.

You also have to keep in mind that trait lines as they are support the necros utilities and traits a lot better than your proposal. Powermancers also apply all kinds of cc conditions… so having power paired with condition duration does of course make more sense for the necro than it would for a thief.

Also, I wasn’t aware that with the current traits you can’t build a “true conditionmancer”…?

Right now if I wanted to go for a Death Shroud Crit build it would have to be

10/30/0/0/30 … or maybe a control type with 30/10/0/0/30

The first one essentially wastes 300 points of condition damage… the second one wastes 100 points of condition damage and loses 10% crit rate.

With my suggestion, a full 300 points of precision and 30% crit rate from Spite, 300 power from Soul Reaping, and then 10% condition duration from Curses with a wasted 100 points of condition damage.
———————————————————

To build a conditionmancer is the same deal: I want to go Spite and Curses. However, because Curses has precision that precision is a waste if I go all 300 points into the line.

With my suggestion, i could go into Curses (condi dam/duration) as well as choosing another trait like like Death or Blood magic for defensive purposes.
—————————————————

I realize that my suggested trait line rearrangement isn’t perfect, but I’m just trying to point out that the Curses trait line seems to get in a way of a lot of builds.

This thread just shows why I like running Rampager (Crit Chance, Power, Condition Damage) trinkets and weapons on my Necro.

Anet said that they like how Necros work quite well as hybrids.
If anything I predict that the other Professions will get changes to be encouraged to go hybrid as well.

infantrydiv.1620:

I realize that my suggested trait line rearrangement isn’t perfect, but I’m just trying to point out that the Curses trait line seems to get in a way of a lot of builds.

I read your builds, and my first thought was your build is really poor for a DS build, than it threw me off because the weapons you took didn’t match the traits you took. Than I read your suggested traits, and it seemed that you wanted to screw up the rest of the builds in order to make yours work better.

Why would you screw up any power build that thrives on condition duration? You realize that power builds use conditions correct? Chill, Blind, Cripple, Vulnerability, and so on. Why would you force every single power build to use Soul Reaping? I don’t use soul reaping on a majority of my power builds as most of the traits in it outside of stability on DS aren’t very attractive.

Wait, since when has crit chance not worked well with condition builds? It combines nicely with Barbed Precision and Sigil of Earth.

Bas.7406:

infantrydiv.1620:

I realize that my suggested trait line rearrangement isn’t perfect, but I’m just trying to point out that the Curses trait line seems to get in a way of a lot of builds.

I read your builds, and my first thought was your build is really poor for a DS build, than it threw me off because the weapons you took didn’t match the traits you took. Than I read your suggested traits, and it seemed that you wanted to screw up the rest of the builds in order to make yours work better.

Why would you screw up any power build that thrives on condition duration? You realize that power builds use conditions correct? Chill, Blind, Cripple, Vulnerability, and so on. Why would you force every single power build to use Soul Reaping? I don’t use soul reaping on a majority of my power builds as most of the traits in it outside of stability on DS aren’t very attractive.

That build isn’t a death shroud build… It flips in and out of death shroud as fast as possible. It’s based on the idea of close to 80% critical chance due to sustained fury, as well as sustained weakness chance from Enfeebling Blood and Curses #12. Although some of the traits I chose probably are not correct, you are right.

I guess maybe I just personally feel the Necro is too much of a hybrid without really concrete strategies. I know many people run very spread out builds on the Necro and do well so maybe this is just my pet peeve or something.

yski.7642:

Wait, since when has crit chance not worked well with condition builds? It combines nicely with Barbed Precision and Sigil of Earth.

Because Scepter and Staff vanilla damage are quite weak, and if I want to stack bleeds on something I can do it far more effectively with a condition damage based scepter build than with Barbed Precision and sigil of earth. I find Barbed Precision to be Anet’s only real link between the precision and condition damage on the Curses trait line…

LastDay.3524:

This thread just shows why I like running Rampager (Crit Chance, Power, Condition Damage) trinkets and weapons on my Necro.

Anet said that they like how Necros work quite well as hybrids.
If anything I predict that the other Professions will get changes to be encouraged to go hybrid as well.

Yes, this is true Rampager’s is a decent choice.

You might be right about that. I’ve felt like currently the Necro is kind of the most hybrid-ish of any class…other than the elementalist by design. It feels like although the Necro isn’t bad it is unable to make really synergetic type builds in the same way that other classes do.

infantrydiv.1620:

Because Scepter and Staff vanilla damage are quite weak, and if I want to stack bleeds on something I can do it far more effectively with a condition damage based scepter build than with Barbed Precision and sigil of earth. I find Barbed Precision to be Anet’s only real link between the precision and condition damage on the Curses trait line…

Why can’t you use both? That’s the standard bleed build: scepter, 30 points in Curses, rabid armor (pre/tough/cond), earth sigil. Anyway, crit in this game is useful for way more than just damage with all the on-crit sigils. I think there was a warrior build a long time ago that used no power but tons of precision because he could proc on-crit effects a lot and it greatly improve his survivability that way.

What you see as a negative I see as a positive. I like that Curses gives both crit and condition damage because it means that both condition builds and crit builds have a reason to use those traits. So even though one may use a condition build, with points in curses he can still take advantage of traits like Withering Precision, because even if he doesn’t do lots of damage he’s still proccing the weakness reguarly. Compare that to the condition thief, which has no reason to put points into its crit chance/crit damage line, even if some of the later traits would be useful.

I agree that necromancer is encouraged to play hybrid and that it’s not the best class for focusing all in one thing. But that’s what makes the class unique and fun to me.

Precision+condition damage is the best combination for highest condition damage. More crits = more condition applications = more damage.

flow.6043:

infantrydiv.1620:

In my opinion, the Necro trait lines should be swapped something like this:

Spite: Precision and Critical Damage
Curses: Condition Damage and Duration
-
-
Soul Reaping: Power and Life Force Pool

What this would do:

-Enable a full burst Death Shroud Necro (With Spite and Soul Reaping)

-Allow for a true ‘Conditionmancer’

Let’s say your full death shrowd power burst necro goes 30/10/-/-/30 with your new trait lines. The only difference now is that you have 200 more precision. Is this really all that is bothering you? That’s just 10% crit chance, you can easily make up for that with gear. Replacing the 20% condition duration on the other hand is much harder.

You also have to keep in mind that trait lines as they are support the necros utilities and traits a lot better than your proposal. Powermancers also apply all kinds of cc conditions… so having power paired with condition duration does of course make more sense for the necro than it would for a thief.

Also, I wasn’t aware that with the current traits you can’t build a “true conditionmancer”…?

10% extra crit chance is a big deal if you’re not running 5 second fury from death shroud.