Guild Wars 2

I don’t like the Death Magic trait “Reanimator”. It summons a useless minion. It also helps foes to rally. I think this trait should be optional rather than a Minor trait. It is unfair that at present we can only accept this ugly Horror without any choices.

I think all minor traits should not be useful to only one build. In reanimator’s case: MM.

I think the rallying thing has been somewhat fixed? I may be wrong, but in the patch notes a few other professions’ skills that helped them rally were changed to not work when they kill something that doesn’t give experience. I don’t use the trait or do much pvp, so idk if it still needs fixing.

I do think it should be optional, though.

I think people need to stop whining about Reanimator. Not every minor trait is useful to every build. The death magic trait line is focused on minions, staves, and toughness. So, the minor traits are related to minions. It doesn’t hurt. You can’t rally off of jagged horrors; they just patched the minions to be less unnecessarily aggressive so they won’t grab aggro any more.

I’m just tired of this same old complaint coming up over and over again. Deal with it. Please?

Solesaver.8764:

I think people need to stop whining about Reanimator. Not every minor trait is useful to every build.

That’s the point. They should be. Minor traits are traits that are supposed to be even marginally useful to anyone who’d trait into that tree. Reanimator is currently the single worst trait in the game. Not only is it only marginally useful to minion-based builds, but it’s actually detrimental to everyone else.

Solesaver.8764:

It doesn’t hurt.

Actually, it does.

Even if the minions are less aggressive they’re still not controllable. They’re still pulling unnecessary aggro, or freezing aggro where I don’t want it. On top of that I get absolutely 0 benefit for even having the bloody thing in the first place.

Just turn the stupid useless kittening thing into an optional trait. Substitute it for pretty much anything.

It bleeds things if it lands any attacks , ( for me it manages to land at least one)

I switched to minion/vampiric build 20/0/30/20/0 and it not so bad , few sec of extra toughness and a poison cloud when its dead.

I would be happy if they just deleted it and replaced the passive with a smiley face, would actually be a step up that way. Atleast then I would never have to look at 1 of them again :P

Or they could just put the reanimator passive into Death magic X:
Minion health increased by 50%
On killing an enemy you spawn an annoying little kitten

Then replace the empty spot with:
On killing an enemy you gain +20 toughness (not stackable / same timer as the annoying kitten spawn) to compensate for Protection of the Horde passive.

That way people have the option of having the annoying little kitten in a more MM based environment (with MM gaining a buff of 20 toughness after killing an enemy and spawning an annoying little kitten) and the rest of us are free from the little kitten forever

I actually think necros are fine as a class, but I really hate re-animator. So much I cannot put points into death magic.

If they made the summons have something I could leverage (short term cripple, etc.) I could tolerate it but as it is it only exists to get me into trouble and then die.

There are way to many myths going on about reanimator. It does not let people rally, it does not run off and attack things you aren’t targeting. It literally does not hurt anything (except maybe your fine sensibility at witnessing its horrificness).

There are plenty of minor traits in plenty of classes that are build specific. Look at the elementalists. The first 4 Adept minor traits only proc if you are in their given attunement. They help a little if you aren’t focusing on them, they can help more if you do focus on them.

There is no reason that the adept minor trait of the Death Magic line shouldn’t be inherently linked to, you know, Death Magic (you know, summoning minions).

Solesaver.8764:

There are way to many myths going on about reanimator. It does not let people rally, it does not run off and attack things you aren’t targeting. It literally does not hurt anything (except maybe your fine sensibility at witnessing its horrificness).

There are plenty of minor traits in plenty of classes that are build specific. Look at the elementalists. The first 4 Adept minor traits only proc if you are in their given attunement. They help a little if you aren’t focusing on them, they can help more if you do focus on them.

There is no reason that the adept minor trait of the Death Magic line shouldn’t be inherently linked to, you know, Death Magic (you know, summoning minions).

The ele traits are not build specific. Every ele uses all of the elements, doesn’t matter if they are burst spec, condition spec or what ever but those traits are always (somewhat) usefull.

Reanimator on the other hand does virtually nothing for a conditionmancer, nothing for a powermancer, nothing for any build that doesn’t focus on minions. And even then I wonder if it’s usefull.

I use staff a lot in dungeons and big events, but to get greater marks I am forced to have a useless minion. Look at the other traitlines. Their minor traits aren’t all that great, but they are usefull for pretty much every build. And with no side-effects such as getting aggro from mobs.
If the minors in death magic gave some sort of bonus to your minions, sure. Just as long it doesn’t actually force you to use one just because you want Staff to be a viable choice.

I can’t understand those people who use staff and disagree to spenf 10 points at the First minor trait so they get a mark / well /staff upgrade. Being the first minor traits , it isnt tha tsomeone forces you to pieck the master line of traits or spenf more than 10 points.

Overreacting is strong in this thread.

Solesaver.8764:

There is no reason that the adept minor trait of the Death Magic line shouldn’t be inherently linked to, you know, Death Magic (you know, summoning minions).

I’ll say it again, in simpler terms so you can understand it:

Minor traits, such as Reanimator, should be at least a little relevant to any build who’d want to put points into that tree.

Contrary to what you think, Death Magic is focused on minions, not exclusive to minion builds. It’s actually absolutely necessary to any build that uses staves. It can also be important for most generally defensive builds.

Also contrary to what you think, Reanimator isn’t just useless. “Protection of the Horde” is simply useless to non minion-using builds: It simply does not give you anything. Reanimator is an actual liability:

Serves little to no purpose while it is alive if you’re not a minion-based build

• Adds an uncontrollable element to your attacks.

• Pathing choices are not controllable. Can cause random aggro-pulling by running up to a target to attack.

• Removes the ability to manage aggro (how far you want to pull them) by getting in the way – potentially forcing a fight in the wrong place.

• Is an additional, poorly controllable, hitbox for the purposes of forcing you into combat.

• Once you attack something you can’t just tell it to stop attacking it.

• Can give you away when you’re trying to sneak around or hide.

Is this simple enough for you or should I whip out MS Paint?

Gotta love fractel when you get to the lightning stairs and wait for it to die so you can finally run up.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Solesaver.8764:

There is no reason that the adept minor trait of the Death Magic line shouldn’t be inherently linked to, you know, Death Magic (you know, summoning minions).

I’ll say it again, in simpler terms so you can understand it:

Minor traits, such as Reanimator, should be at least a little relevant to any build who’d want to put points into that tree.

Contrary to what you think, Death Magic is focused on minions, not exclusive to minion builds. It’s actually absolutely necessary to any build that uses staves. It can also be important for most generally defensive builds.

Also contrary to what you think, Reanimator isn’t just useless. “Protection of the Horde” is simply useless to non minion-using builds: It simply does not give you anything. Reanimator is an actual liability:

Serves little to no purpose while it is alive if you’re not a minion-based build

• Adds an uncontrollable element to your attacks.

• Pathing choices are not controllable. Can cause random aggro-pulling by running up to a target to attack.

• Removes the ability to manage aggro (how far you want to pull them) by getting in the way – potentially forcing a fight in the wrong place.

• Is an additional, poorly controllable, hitbox for the purposes of forcing you into combat.

• Once you attack something you can’t just tell it to stop attacking it.

• Can give you away when you’re trying to sneak around or hide.

Is this simple enough for you or should I whip out MS Paint?

Even if you have don’t have dedicated minion build you can get some value out of your jagged horrors. Therefore it is at least a little relevant to any build. In the same way that a thief who wants toughness traits might go in to the Shadow Arts trait line, even if they don’t have a stealth based build, so too can a necromancer choose to constantly whine about the Death Magic minor traits, ignore their effect, or learn to maximize the effectiveness of what they are given.

All I can recommend to you is that you actually pay attention to how your jagged minions interact with you and the environment, then cease spreading myths about it.

Solesaver.8764:

ProxyDamage.9826:

I’ll say it again, in simpler terms so you can understand it:

Minor traits, such as Reanimator, should be at least a little relevant to any build who’d want to put points into that tree.

Contrary to what you think, Death Magic is focused on minions, not exclusive to minion builds. It’s actually absolutely necessary to any build that uses staves. It can also be important for most generally defensive builds.

Also contrary to what you think, Reanimator isn’t just useless. “Protection of the Horde” is simply useless to non minion-using builds: It simply does not give you anything. Reanimator is an actual liability:

Serves little to no purpose while it is alive if you’re not a minion-based build

• Adds an uncontrollable element to your attacks.

• Pathing choices are not controllable. Can cause random aggro-pulling by running up to a target to attack.

• Removes the ability to manage aggro (how far you want to pull them) by getting in the way – potentially forcing a fight in the wrong place.

• Is an additional, poorly controllable, hitbox for the purposes of forcing you into combat.

• Once you attack something you can’t just tell it to stop attacking it.

• Can give you away when you’re trying to sneak around or hide.

Is this simple enough for you or should I whip out MS Paint?

Even if you have don’t have dedicated minion build you can get some value out of your jagged horrors. Therefore it is at least a little relevant to any build. In the same way that a thief who wants toughness traits might go in to the Shadow Arts trait line, even if they don’t have a stealth based build, so too can a necromancer choose to constantly whine about the Death Magic minor traits, ignore their effect, or learn to maximize the effectiveness of what they are given.

All I can recommend to you is that you actually pay attention to how your jagged minions interact with you and the environment, then cease spreading myths about it.

ProxyDamage does pay attention to how jagged horrors interact with the environment. That’s why they have a list of ways in which it is a liability. You might do better to try and refute the listed behaviors.

Solesaver.8764:

Even if you have don’t have dedicated minion build you can get some value out of your jagged horrors. Therefore it is at least a little relevant to any build. In the same way that a thief who wants toughness traits might go in to the Shadow Arts trait line, even if they don’t have a stealth based build, so too can a necromancer choose to constantly whine about the Death Magic minor traits, ignore their effect, or learn to maximize the effectiveness of what they are given.

All I can recommend to you is that you actually pay attention to how your jagged minions interact with you and the environment, then cease spreading myths about it.

I do consider Jagged Horror a liability though not a big enough one to get angry over but did I just see you compare a Jagged Horror with the utility of Last Refuge in an attempt to salvage your point? Because that is anger-inducing levels of sheer stupid.

Solesaver.8764:

Even if you have don’t have dedicated minion build you can get some value out of your jagged horrors. Therefore it is at least a little relevant to any build. In the same way that a thief who wants toughness traits might go in to the Shadow Arts trait line, even if they don’t have a stealth based build, so too can a necromancer choose to constantly whine about the Death Magic minor traits, ignore their effect, or learn to maximize the effectiveness of what they are given.

All I can recommend to you is that you actually pay attention to how your jagged minions interact with you and the environment, then cease spreading myths about it.

How can I get value out of it? It does pitiful damage and attacks things on its own that I never wanted to fight. Its pure detriment. Seriously, where is the value??

It’s not as bad as it was; since the degen was fixed at level 80 it lands and takes a few hits. It also seems to have a far superior AI to the golem or shadow fiend, I don’t ever recall it sitting back, popping a beer and watching me fight. Making the most of its limited time in the world perhaps

Guess I’ll have to make another one.

Softspoken.2410:

ProxyDamage does pay attention to how jagged horrors interact with the environment. That’s why they have a list of ways in which it is a liability. You might do better to try and refute the listed behaviors.

I didn’t refute the listed behaviors because if he had paid attention to how the jagged horrors behave he would see that it doesn’t do any of those things.

Ruruuiye.8912:

I do consider Jagged Horror a liability though not a big enough one to get angry over but did I just see you compare a Jagged Horror with the utility of Last Refuge in an attempt to salvage your point? Because that is anger-inducing levels of sheer stupid.

Yes, I compare it to Last Refuge because it is the same thing. It is a specific utility that, if it isn’t a part of your build, is minimally useful, slightly more useful if you do focus on building for it, and makes sense where it is because it is highly relevant to the trait line that it is in. Stealth is no more or less an inherent property of thieves than Minions are for necros. They are each class abilities that are available as a rather defining characteristic of their class but aren’t necessary for every build.

Solesaver.8764:

Yes, I compare it to Last Refuge because it is the same thing. It is a specific utility that, if it isn’t a part of your build, is minimally useful, slightly more useful if you do focus on building for it, and makes sense where it is because it is highly relevant to the trait line that it is in. Stealth is no more or less an inherent property of thieves than Minions are for necros. They are each class abilities that are available as a rather defining characteristic of their class but aren’t necessary for every build.

No, they are in no way, shape or form anywhere near similar.

Last Refuge is one of the most clutch life-saving traits in the game for PvP and I hate all thieves who have it.

Reanimator does less then nothing.

Not modified, removed.

Given the amount of hate for that trait and yet it still persists to exist, it basically confirms no Anet devs play necro.

bear.3842:

Not modified, removed.

Given the amount of hate for that trait and yet it still persists to exist, it basically confirms no Anet devs play necro.

The Greater Marks radius issue is more what shows that.

Re-animator is actually pretty decent, have a look at every other classes trait in the same position, most of them are pretty basic. In reality, the horror doesn’t actually pull any aggro anymore and it IS very Necro. It’s only problem is it’s totally useless in PvP as it dies to any AoE or cleave and attacks and moves WAY too slowly to actually land a hit on a player.
I would love if they reduced the cooldown to 5s or something so you could have a swarm of them, but that would be OP for PvE as a minor adept trait.
Honestly they should improve it’s movement speed a bit and attack speed massively (whilst significantly reducing it’s damage to compensate (it is a tiny rat after all…)). Those changes would see it become useful in PvP (it will now land attacks) as well as PvE, whilst still remaining extremely weak (it dies in 1 hit) in line with all the other traits in the same position (except maybe rangers +50% endurance regen, that minor is excellent :P).

Reanimator:
“Gain 2 second of regeneration when you apply a condition to a foe.” – stacks.

Protection of the Horde:
“Create a “Mark of Blood” at your feet when you cast Mark of Blood."

Reanimator:
“Gain health when you apply a condition to a foe.” – stacks.

Protection of the Horde:
“Blood Fiends heal now heals itself and other Minions, its heal amount has been increased by 25%.”

Reanimator:
“When your minions die, they are immediately reanimated for 10 seconds, then die again.”

Protection of the Horde:
“When your minions die, they create “Combo Field: Dark.” for 3 seconds.

Reanimator:
“Summon a Jagged Horror when a Minion dies.”

Protection of the Horde:
“6% reduced damage for each minion you have in the world.”

Jasta.1094:

I would be happy if they just deleted it and replaced the passive with a smiley face, would actually be a step up that way. Atleast then I would never have to look at 1 of them again :P

You sir made my day xD

Reanimator:
Create a Mark when a minion dies.
“Mark of Blood” – Bone Minion, Blood Fiend.
“Chillbains” – Shadow Fiend, Bone Fiend.
“Putrid Mark” – Flesh Wurm, Jagged Horror.
“Reaper’s Mark” – Flesh Golem.

Protection of the Horde:
“Create a Jagged Horror when you use a Mark.”

Move Reanimator to the “25” spot.

Reanimator:
Create a Minion when you use a Mark.
“Mark of Blood” – Create a temporary Blood Fiend.
“Chillbains” – Create a temporary Shadow Fiend.
“Putrid Mark” – Create a temporary Flesh Wurm.
“Reaper’s Mark.” – Create a temporary Flesh Golem.

Each Minion created this way has a bleed on them that takes 10% health every second.

This would be a very fun trait, and very proper to necromancer.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Solesaver.8764:

Yes, I compare it to Last Refuge because it is the same thing. It is a specific utility that, if it isn’t a part of your build, is minimally useful, slightly more useful if you do focus on building for it, and makes sense where it is because it is highly relevant to the trait line that it is in. Stealth is no more or less an inherent property of thieves than Minions are for necros. They are each class abilities that are available as a rather defining characteristic of their class but aren’t necessary for every build.

No, they are in no way, shape or form anywhere near similar.

Last Refuge is one of the most clutch life-saving traits in the game for PvP and I hate all thieves who have it.

Reanimator does less then nothing.

Ok, now we’re talking. So what I’m hearing is that reanimator needs a buff. I’m not here claiming that Reanimator is as good a trait as Last Refuge (though a separate discussion/argument could be had over that). What I am saying is that they are in the same vein. It is just as legitimate for them to put a minion specific minor trait at the beginning of the Death Magic tree as it is to put a stealth specific trait at the beginning of the Shadow Arts tree. Stealth:Thief::Minion:Necromancer.

And no, reanimator does not do less than nothing. If you are still trying to make that point your are running on fumes. Yes, initially there were many bugs with reanimator, but they have fixed them. Any remaining bugs with the trait need to be addressed as such, bugs, not reasons that the trait should be removed.

If I have convinced any of the audience the slightest bit (especially ANet) that it is perfectly legitimate for there to be ‘build specific’ adept minor traits I have succeeded. The rest of you stubborn minion haters can come to terms with that fact, or you continue to bring up this tired old complaint and wait for ANet’s designers to change their character designs to match your theoretical build (which I hope to God ANet’s designers are good enough of designers that this waiting period is FOREVER).

Solesaver.8764:

I didn’t refute the listed behaviors because if he had paid attention to how the jagged horrors behave he would see that it doesn’t do any of those things.

Right. Either you’re doing this out of ignorance or stubbornness. Either ways, whatever shred of legitimacy you might have had in this argument has flown out the window the second you tried to deny demonstrable facts.

And that’s “GG”.

Solesaver.8764:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Solesaver.8764:

Yes, I compare it to Last Refuge because it is the same thing. It is a specific utility that, if it isn’t a part of your build, is minimally useful, slightly more useful if you do focus on building for it, and makes sense where it is because it is highly relevant to the trait line that it is in. Stealth is no more or less an inherent property of thieves than Minions are for necros. They are each class abilities that are available as a rather defining characteristic of their class but aren’t necessary for every build.

No, they are in no way, shape or form anywhere near similar.

Last Refuge is one of the most clutch life-saving traits in the game for PvP and I hate all thieves who have it.

Reanimator does less then nothing.

Ok, now we’re talking. So what I’m hearing is that reanimator needs a buff. I’m not here claiming that Reanimator is as good a trait as Last Refuge (though a separate discussion/argument could be had over that). What I am saying is that they are in the same vein. It is just as legitimate for them to put a minion specific minor trait at the beginning of the Death Magic tree as it is to put a stealth specific trait at the beginning of the Shadow Arts tree. Stealth:Thief::Minion:Necromancer.

And no, reanimator does not do less than nothing. If you are still trying to make that point your are running on fumes. Yes, initially there were many bugs with reanimator, but they have fixed them. Any remaining bugs with the trait need to be addressed as such, bugs, not reasons that the trait should be removed.

If I have convinced any of the audience the slightest bit (especially ANet) that it is perfectly legitimate for there to be ‘build specific’ adept minor traits I have succeeded. The rest of you stubborn minion haters can come to terms with that fact, or you continue to bring up this tired old complaint and wait for ANet’s designers to change their character designs to match your theoretical build (which I hope to God ANet’s designers are good enough of designers that this waiting period is FOREVER).

Sorry what now? Last refuge is a piece of kitten cake with cookies and jelly beans over it all served on naked woman if you compare it to reanimator no matter the build, it saved the kitten of my theif countless times when going for lifetime survivor without crafting. Also not all necromancers use minions, in fact 4/5 options dont have anything to do with em (random mixed up traits that should be replaced with the staff ones pushed into DM after the Press demo in end 2011), while the only thief build that doesnt is evasion spam tank, there are even 2 stealths options in the weapons.
If you look at every (and with that i mean every other class) the only trait except reanimation that people would be justified to kitten about since it doesnt do anything for them in pretty much every build is the Tactics warrior line (filled with really nice traits), but that line actually helps your allies and by a nice chunk thus you wouldnt shy away from it.
The whole DM line for a necro is right now blocked, imagine for a theif having ricochet instead of serpents touch in the deadly arts line or warriors with powerful banners instead of fast hands, making no reason and forcing you down a build (note i had to use major optional traits for the comparison because there are no objectively bad minior ones you get and cannot chose if going down a line in any other class).

Solesaver.8764:

I think people need to stop whining about Reanimator. Not every minor trait is useful to every build. The death magic trait line is focused on minions, staves, and toughness. So, the minor traits are related to minions. It doesn’t hurt. You can’t rally off of jagged horrors; they just patched the minions to be less unnecessarily aggressive so they won’t grab aggro any more.

I’m just tired of this same old complaint coming up over and over again. Deal with it. Please?

I think you do not understand the problem. The issue is not that this talent is not only utterly worthless, it’s that it is forced upon you when you specc for toughness, it helps enemies to rally in WvW and is absolutely detrimental in PvE as well (Giganticus Lupicus in Arah). This abomination of a fail trait should be hotfixed immediately.

If Anet wants to keep that trait, make the minion invulnerable for its duration and make it explode automatically when it ends, so that it doesn’t count as killed.

Shedim,

The rallies have been fixed for vengeance, mist form, and illusion of life this last patch. Also lupi has been fixed as well. Its on the second page in the link below. It is still possible just not going to often since it will target players first or should.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Lupicus-using-grub-skill-on-necro-minions/first

gamefreak.5673:

Shedim,

The rallies have been fixed for vengeance, mist form, and illusion of life this last patch. Also lupi has been fixed as well. Its on the second page in the link below. It is still possible just not going to often since it will target players first or should.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Lupicus-using-grub-skill-on-necro-minions/first

As gamefreak pointed out, the trait is still kitten, it just doesn’t stink as bad anymore.

PS – Any “activates on death” traits are bad in PvP because they usually only activate after you win the fight.
It’s even worse since the devs are aware of this, it’s obvious with stacking sigils gaining 5 stacks per kill in sPvP. So why are the traits still gimped?

ProxyDamage.9826:

Right. Either you’re doing this out of ignorance or stubbornness. Either ways, whatever shred of legitimacy you might have had in this argument has flown out the window the second you tried to deny demonstrable facts.

And that’s “GG”.

I’m not denying demonstratable facts. Yes, there were bugs with the minions and jagged horrors, they were fixed, because they were bugs. Any bugs that you find in the future need to be fixed.

You can continue to live in this land of denial thinking that one day ANet will “listen to you” and “fix” the trait, or you can realize that they have listened to and addressed/continue to address problems that arise, but they will not “fix” a trait that isn’t broken.

Andele.1306:

Sorry what now? Last refuge is a piece of kitten cake with cookies and jelly beans over it all served on naked woman if you compare it to reanimator no matter the build, it saved the kitten of my theif countless times when going for lifetime survivor without crafting. Also not all necromancers use minions, in fact 4/5 options dont have anything to do with em (random mixed up traits that should be replaced with the staff ones pushed into DM after the Press demo in end 2011), while the only thief build that doesnt is evasion spam tank, there are even 2 stealths options in the weapons.
If you look at every (and with that i mean every other class) the only trait except reanimation that people would be justified to kitten about since it doesnt do anything for them in pretty much every build is the Tactics warrior line (filled with really nice traits), but that line actually helps your allies and by a nice chunk thus you wouldnt shy away from it.
The whole DM line for a necro is right now blocked, imagine for a theif having ricochet instead of serpents touch in the deadly arts line or warriors with powerful banners instead of fast hands, making no reason and forcing you down a build (note i had to use major optional traits for the comparison because there are no objectively bad minior ones you get and cannot chose if going down a line in any other class).

I insist on comparing reanimator to last refuge because while you consider one to be clearly superior to the other they live in the same place, putting a single aspect of the class into an adept minor trait slot. Sure, most thief builds use stealth in some way because it has been deemed “good” (demonstrably or otherwise), minions on the other hand have been deemed “bad”.

You are forgetting that people came up with these builds where they are “forced” to take reanimator long after the class was designed. A good design team is not going to change the design of the class to meet the needs of the builds. That is not how games work.

In this line of discussion, comparing reanimator to last refuge, I’m not trying to make the point that reanimator is good. All I’m trying to show is that it makes perfect sense to be where it is, a minion trait in the minion trait line.

shedim.8504:

I think you do not understand the problem. The issue is not that this talent is not only utterly worthless, it’s that it is forced upon you when you specc for toughness, it helps enemies to rally in WvW and is absolutely detrimental in PvE as well (Giganticus Lupicus in Arah). This abomination of a fail trait should be hotfixed immediately.

If Anet wants to keep that trait, make the minion invulnerable for its duration and make it explode automatically when it ends, so that it doesn’t count as killed.

You know all those ways you keep saying it hurts you/helps your enemies. I understand perfectly well what you THINK the problem is. What you don’t understand is that ANet has addressed all of the “problems” you mentioned. They don’t exist anymore; they have been fixed.

It’s a surprise ANet even bothers trying to fix Necro bugs with all the crap you give them. Do you not know how to read? You say the trait should be hotfixed, but if it was you wouldn’t even notice, you would continue to whine about problems that don’t exist anymore because they were fixed months ago (like rallying off of them) in announced patches (like Giganticus).

If you are using Reanimator (you know, because you absolutely have to) and you notice an actual problem with it (like you continue to claim there are) report it as a bug and ANet will address it. Then, continue living your life assuming they have fixed it. If you notice the bug again after the next patch report it again (unless you notice an announcement that they are looking into the problem, which I doubt you would even notice since you haven’t noticed any of the other ones talking about problems they have fixed).

No need to be rude. I didn’t bother reading the necro stuff in the patchnotes because I don’t play one. As for the WvW thing, we got in a fight with a Necro yesterday and one ally right next to me rallied as soon as the little undead trait-rodent exploded and there was nothing else around. Maybe it was because of something different but I didn’t see anything else around.

I haven’t seen a Necro in Arah for ages, so I didn’t know if they fixed the bug, but the last time we had a Necro with us, he fed Lupi stacks every time we killed a grub or locust swarm because of a forced talent and that was no fun at all.

Doesn’t change the fact that this talent is worth jack, still.

shedim.8504:

No need to be rude. I didn’t bother reading the necro stuff in the patchnotes because I don’t play one. As for the WvW thing, we got in a fight with a Necro yesterday and one ally right next to me rallied as soon as the little undead trait-rodent exploded and there was nothing else around. Maybe it was because of something different but I didn’t see anything else around.

I haven’t seen a Necro in Arah for ages, so I didn’t know if they fixed the bug, but the last time we had a Necro with us, he fed Lupi stacks every time we killed a grub or locust swarm because of a forced talent and that was no fun at all.

Doesn’t change the fact that this talent is worth jack, still.

A number of bugs have been claimed to be “fixed” but took multiple passes to completely uproot (guardian 3 block as an example) so I wouldn’t doubt rallying off of jagged horrors/normal minions is still around.

The last time I did Arah (after the november patch) lupicus was still spawning grubs on jagged horrors.

Think the Arah fix came in the January patch.

I like Reanimator, but I wish the little guys were invulnerable to damage and just had a time life limit before they died.

Solesaver.8764:

I insist on comparing reanimator to last refuge because while you consider one to be clearly superior to the other they live in the same place, putting a single aspect of the class into an adept minor trait slot. Sure, most thief builds use stealth in some way because it has been deemed “good” (demonstrably or otherwise), minions on the other hand have been deemed “bad”.

You are forgetting that people came up with these builds where they are “forced” to take reanimator long after the class was designed. A good design team is not going to change the design of the class to meet the needs of the builds. That is not how games work.

In this line of discussion, comparing reanimator to last refuge, I’m not trying to make the point that reanimator is good. All I’m trying to show is that it makes perfect sense to be where it is, a minion trait in the minion trait line.

1) They are not in the same place since Last refuge doesnt hurt any build nor does it stop the users from using Shadow Arts because it would leave you directly weaker in comparison.

2) Its not about changing the game to meet builds, its changing the game to remove build limits, big difference since it affects class balance (being unable to use a entire trait line because it makes you weaker in comparison of using another). And yes that is how MMO games work, they remove flaws that reduce the fun. I mean did you ever see how much Dota/LoL, Planetside (in its original times and already with 2), PoE and pretty much every other game that has at least little care about a fair environment (hell even WoW counts with its countless changes to skill trees).

3) Every line of traits has 2 or more options for specialization with with minior traits being universal, not the case with DM. I could actually take this to false advertising since its one of the “features” on most promotional and commercial lists of what GW2 has.

shedim.8504:

No need to be rude. I didn’t bother reading the necro stuff in the patchnotes because I don’t play one. As for the WvW thing, we got in a fight with a Necro yesterday and one ally right next to me rallied as soon as the little undead trait-rodent exploded and there was nothing else around. Maybe it was because of something different but I didn’t see anything else around.

I haven’t seen a Necro in Arah for ages, so I didn’t know if they fixed the bug, but the last time we had a Necro with us, he fed Lupi stacks every time we killed a grub or locust swarm because of a forced talent and that was no fun at all.

Doesn’t change the fact that this talent is worth jack, still.

So why are you here, commenting on the relative value of a trait if you don’t even play the class or read notes to see what’s been fixed?

lettucemode.3789:

So why are you here, commenting on the relative value of a trait if you don’t even play the class or read notes to see what’s been fixed?

Its nice that people get to know the perspectives from other classes, it makes you able to make a more objective judgement (i check thief, hunter and mesmer forums almost as often as necro despite thief just being my farm alt and not playing the other 2).

Andele.1306:

lettucemode.3789:

So why are you here, commenting on the relative value of a trait if you don’t even play the class or read notes to see what’s been fixed?

Its nice that people get to know the perspectives from other classes, it makes you able to make a more objective judgement (i check thief, hunter and mesmer forums almost as often as necro despite thief just being my farm alt and not playing the other 2).

I agree with you on principle, however that’s not what he’s doing. He’s parroting things he read around the forum and giving his opinion on how well something works when he has no direct experience with it. That would be like me going into the mesmer forum and talking about how greatsword needs to be buffed, or something (I have never touched a mesmer). It would be totally out of place and inappropriate.

Not to mention that two of his complaints are out of date (rallying and Lupi).

lettucemode.3789:

Andele.1306:

lettucemode.3789:

So why are you here, commenting on the relative value of a trait if you don’t even play the class or read notes to see what’s been fixed?

Its nice that people get to know the perspectives from other classes, it makes you able to make a more objective judgement (i check thief, hunter and mesmer forums almost as often as necro despite thief just being my farm alt and not playing the other 2).

I agree with you on principle, however that’s not what he’s doing. He’s parroting things he read around the forum and giving his opinion on how well something works when he has no direct experience with it. That would be like me going into the mesmer forum and talking about how greatsword needs to be buffed, or something (I have never touched a mesmer). It would be totally out of place and inappropriate.

Not to mention that two of his complaints are out of date (rallying and Lupi).

You used Ad Hominem instead of actually disagreeing with anything he posted.
That’s just being rude.

Also, he’s right, Jagged Horrors were supposedly fixed originally back in October I think? How did that turno out?
Even if they finally stopped people from rallying with it, it’s still a pretty much undesired trait.

The best purpose I can give for the trait is that some Dev loved Protection of the Horde so much that he insisted in making it a minor, unfortunately someone pointed out that would be completely useless if the player didn’t use minion.
Guess how they fixed that?

Kiriakulos.1690:

lettucemode.3789:

Andele.1306:

lettucemode.3789:

So why are you here, commenting on the relative value of a trait if you don’t even play the class or read notes to see what’s been fixed?

Its nice that people get to know the perspectives from other classes, it makes you able to make a more objective judgement (i check thief, hunter and mesmer forums almost as often as necro despite thief just being my farm alt and not playing the other 2).

I agree with you on principle, however that’s not what he’s doing. He’s parroting things he read around the forum and giving his opinion on how well something works when he has no direct experience with it. That would be like me going into the mesmer forum and talking about how greatsword needs to be buffed, or something (I have never touched a mesmer). It would be totally out of place and inappropriate.

Not to mention that two of his complaints are out of date (rallying and Lupi).

You used Ad Hominem instead of actually disagreeing with anything he posted.
That’s just being rude.

Also, he’s right, Jagged Horrors were supposedly fixed originally back in October I think? How did that turno out?
Even if they finally stopped people from rallying with it, it’s still a pretty much undesired trait.

The best purpose I can give for the trait is that some Dev loved Protection of the Horde so much that he insisted in making it a minor, unfortunately someone pointed out that would be completely useless if the player didn’t use minion.
Guess how they fixed that?

Well, you’re right, so I apologize. The way his argument as presented ignored some of the facts kitten me off.

To get back on topic: I don’t think this trait is worthless. From experience I’d say that each horror does about 600 damage before it dies (I do WvW roaming, so small fights or 1v1s). I’d welcome a buff or change to the minors, but I don’t want to call it worthless.

lettucemode.3789:

To get back on topic: I don’t think this trait is worthless. From experience I’d say that each horror does about 600 damage before it dies (I do WvW roaming, so small fights or 1v1s). I’d welcome a buff or change to the minors, but I don’t want to call it worthless.

Depends on how much condition damage you have (some patch actually got the minion cond scailing off your right iirc), how many you have (the only use i had ever of it when i went 10 into DM for staff cd is 6 horrors from Lich mark), if the enemy has any aoe/toughness (every risen used to kill it in 1 attack, dont know how its now) and the fact that in WvWvW you can do stuff you cant in other (use items are blocked/enemies immune to em in pvp/dungeons, how keeps and buffs work with minions and pets and the fact that you use PvE gear for a type of PvP thus pretty often fighting someone of lower/higher stats). Also it still doesnt excuse why there are build specific minior traits instead of them being major ones of T1…

Andele.1306:

1) They are not in the same place since Last refuge doesnt hurt any build nor does it stop the users from using Shadow Arts because it would leave you directly weaker in comparison.

2) Its not about changing the game to meet builds, its changing the game to remove build limits, big difference since it affects class balance (being unable to use a entire trait line because it makes you weaker in comparison of using another). And yes that is how MMO games work, they remove flaws that reduce the fun. I mean did you ever see how much Dota/LoL, Planetside (in its original times and already with 2), PoE and pretty much every other game that has at least little care about a fair environment (hell even WoW counts with its countless changes to skill trees).

3) Every line of traits has 2 or more options for specialization with with minior traits being universal, not the case with DM. I could actually take this to false advertising since its one of the “features” on most promotional and commercial lists of what GW2 has.

Whether or not you think Reanimator hurts a build is beside this particular point. If you want to discuss the merits and flaws of the trait I’m pretty sure I have a discussion about that going on in a different thread. You are right, having a minor trait shouldn’t be a bad thing. No one would ever make that claim, you have repeatedly beat that straw-man so many times it transformed into a horse for your pleasure.

The actual point of comparing Last Refuge to Reanimator is that they both are adept minor traits that are specific to one class feature. I get it, you actively don’t want the jagged horror because there is this rampant perception that it is actively harming your build. However, it occupies the same design space as automatically stealthing you at 25% health just for wanting to spec toughness with your traits.

Last Refuge is not a ‘universal’ trait any more than Reanimator. You don’t have to take a single other minion trait or skill to have the jagged horror show up and attack stuff. You can get more utility out of it by speccing increased minion health or damage or whatever else. In the exact same way, you can improve Last Refuge by speccing regain initiative on stealth, or remove conditions or heal while in stealth.

To address your labeled points specifically: 1)This is an argument for buffing/continuing to bug fix Reanimator, not replacing it. The concept of summoning a minion upon killing something is not bad. 2)Again, your build is not being limited by summoning a minion when you kill something. There is an argument out there for buffing the trait, not for removing it. 3)Being given a minion related minor trait does not detract from there being other aspects to the trait line.

Hmm, looks like all three points were the same thing over and over again, and the answer is the same: There is nothing wrong with having a minion specific adept minor trait; it is self-consistent with the design of the game and does not inherently detract from other builds; the only reason to change its core principle (summoning a minion upon kill) is in an effort to make it better support your build(s) as opposed to the build it currently supports (minion master) which would be a case of modifying the game to match your theory-crafting (a mark of poor design principles).

shedim.8504:

No need to be rude. I didn’t bother reading the necro stuff in the patchnotes because I don’t play one. As for the WvW thing, we got in a fight with a Necro yesterday and one ally right next to me rallied as soon as the little undead trait-rodent exploded and there was nothing else around. Maybe it was because of something different but I didn’t see anything else around.

I haven’t seen a Necro in Arah for ages, so I didn’t know if they fixed the bug, but the last time we had a Necro with us, he fed Lupi stacks every time we killed a grub or locust swarm because of a forced talent and that was no fun at all.

Doesn’t change the fact that this talent is worth jack, still.

Another reply responded pretty well for me. For my part, you’re right, I could have tried to word my point more politely, but I hope you can understand my frustration at someone coming into my discussion and tearing into my arguments with out-dated info when they haven’t even given me the respect of researching the published facts that they are using against me. It completely derails the discussion and distracts from my core point. It is an effective debating tool when being judged on image because it forces me to spread my efforts addressing every single point (even irrelevant ones) brought against me. The only way to deal with it is to make the opponent appear ridiculous for even considering that argument rather than waste time addressing the points; the downside to that approach is it makes me appear rude and unsympathetic.

I would like to see the jagged horror gives us some life force. That would be something every play style could utilize.