The Reaper and Dagger dilemma

The Reaper and Dagger dilemma

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

I hope Dagger isn’t going to be the main weapon for Reaper, because it will be so anticlimactic. I heard stories from Necros playing the Beta saying that Dagger was the best dps weapon in PvE against enemies with more than 50% hp. People were justifying it with “oh Dagger doesn’t cleave, it’s only good in single target”, but spamming 1 is so bad, especially for a spec meant to use Greatsword as its main weapon. We haven’t seen the new Reaper changes that will come out with the launch of the expansion, but please Anet, don’t make this happen. Dagger could easily be just a PvP weapon for Reaper, no need to make it the best for PvE. If that happens, I might drop the entire class all together, I can’t see myself playing Reaper with a Dagger, even if it’s only for half of the fight, let the other Necro builds use it.

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Dagger has faster attack speed, higher AA dps, and better sustain, IMO, and will be a legitimate reaper weapon.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Maybe it was just me but the main reason I used dagger wasn’t dps but LF generation…

Beside, you play reaper for more reason than just the greatsword. what would be the point of the weapon swap if you were to use only GS when you play reaper? Do you think that scepter, axe and staff fit better the Reaper thematic?

Dagger could easily be just a PvP weapon for Reaper, no need to make it the best for PvE. If that happens, I might drop the entire class all together, I can’t see myself playing Reaper with a Dagger, even if it’s only for half of the fight, let the other Necro builds use it.

What do you suggest here? Removing dagger from the reaper weapon? Nerfing dagger so it’s damage are ridiculously low, nerfin at the same time the core necromancer?

Dagger is part of the necromancer as well as Reaper is part of the necromancer. If you don’t like dagger, just don’t use it. Other players will play according to their own preference.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

What do you suggest here? Removing dagger from the reaper weapon? Nerfing dagger so it’s damage are ridiculously low, nerfin at the same time the core necromancer?

Dagger is part of the necromancer as well as Reaper is part of the necromancer. If you don’t like dagger, just don’t use it. Other players will play according to their own preference.

If Reaper Dagger does more single target damage than Greatsword, buff Reaper Greatsword, simple as that. It doesn’t have to be a straight number increase, they could easily improve the cast times of Reaper abilities to increase the dps.

What would be the point of the weapon swap if you were to use only GS when you play reaper? Do you think that scepter, axe and staff fit better the Reaper thematic?

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

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Posted by: Dhogoth.1856

Dhogoth.1856

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately I had the same impression playing in the BWEs, the situation where the GS was good is only to spam gravedigger under 50% HP, a DPS buff would be great.

Brazillian guild: White Raven

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Posted by: Ilharn.6813

Ilharn.6813

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately I had the same impression playing in the BWEs, the situation where the GS was good is only to spam gravedigger under 50% HP, a DPS buff would be great.

I played this way: pullt mobs by GS5, then GS3 for LF, might and invul, GS4, RS5, RS4, AA
After using LF the most mobs will be under 50%, otherwise repeat

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately I had the same impression playing in the BWEs, the situation where the GS was good is only to spam gravedigger under 50% HP, a DPS buff would be great.

I played this way: pullt mobs by GS5, then GS3 for LF, might and invul, GS4, RS5, RS4, AA
After using LF the most mobs will be under 50%, otherwise repeat

It doesn’t really mean anything, especially with raids coming, where you have to dps a single target for 6/7 minutes straight if not more.

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Posted by: Ilharn.6813

Ilharn.6813

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately I had the same impression playing in the BWEs, the situation where the GS was good is only to spam gravedigger under 50% HP, a DPS buff would be great.

I played this way: pullt mobs by GS5, then GS3 for LF, might and invul, GS4, RS5, RS4, AA
After using LF the most mobs will be under 50%, otherwise repeat

It doesn’t really mean anything, especially with raids coming, where you have to dps a single target for 6/7 minutes straight if not more.

You can use RS in raids too… especially with overflooting boons from everywhere LF will be incredible fast full

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

But other weapon does not eclipse the Greatsword.
What are the strenght of the greatsword? A pull (count as a hard CC) (grasping darkness), an aoe blind (nightfall), a fast way to put a lot of vulnerability in a split second (Death spiral), big numbers on a foe that is under 50% HP (Gravedigger) and an AA that apply chill.

What are the strenght of the dagger? hard hitting AA, fast LF generation, a clumsy heal (Life siphon) and a once in a lifetime root (dark pact).

The greatsword do not need to be the weapon that does the most DPS for the whole fight. Doing the most DPS does not mean “being the main weapon of…”.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Kotte.2460

Kotte.2460

i like axe. axe is life axe is love

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately I had the same impression playing in the BWEs, the situation where the GS was good is only to spam gravedigger under 50% HP, a DPS buff would be great.

I played this way: pullt mobs by GS5, then GS3 for LF, might and invul, GS4, RS5, RS4, AA
After using LF the most mobs will be under 50%, otherwise repeat

It doesn’t really mean anything, especially with raids coming, where you have to dps a single target for 6/7 minutes straight if not more.

You can use RS in raids too… especially with overflooting boons from everywhere LF will be incredible fast full

Sure, but nobody didn’t say you shouldn’t use RS and this has anything to do with the discussion Dagger vs Greatsword debate.

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Posted by: Ilharn.6813

Ilharn.6813

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately I had the same impression playing in the BWEs, the situation where the GS was good is only to spam gravedigger under 50% HP, a DPS buff would be great.

I played this way: pullt mobs by GS5, then GS3 for LF, might and invul, GS4, RS5, RS4, AA
After using LF the most mobs will be under 50%, otherwise repeat

It doesn’t really mean anything, especially with raids coming, where you have to dps a single target for 6/7 minutes straight if not more.

You can use RS in raids too… especially with overflooting boons from everywhere LF will be incredible fast full

Sure, but nobody didn’t say you shouldn’t use RS and this has anything to do with the discussion Dagger vs Greatsword debate.

Ok, you want it… Prepare for the hardest argument you can’t beat!

Ready?

GS<3

:D

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

But other weapon does not eclipse the Greatsword.
What are the strenght of the greatsword? A pull (count as a hard CC) (grasping darkness), an aoe blind (nightfall), a fast way to put a lot of vulnerability in a split second (Death spiral), big numbers on a foe that is under 50% HP (Gravedigger) and an AA that apply chill.

What are the strenght of the dagger? hard hitting AA, fast LF generation, a clumsy heal (Life siphon) and a once in a lifetime root (dark pact).

The greatsword do not need to be the weapon that does the most DPS for the whole fight. Doing the most DPS does not mean “being the main weapon of…”.

I disagree, especially because we already pretty much use Dagger only with every Necro PvE build, there’s no diversity. Why does Dagger have to be useful for Reaper in terms of raw dps? Can’t it be just a PvP Weapon or the best choice for every other Necro build? It’s like creating a Berserker Warrior and trying to play a Condition build with Torch, but Rifle with Condition Damage does more damage, so you have to use rifle most of the times because it’s better, overshadowing the unique aspect of the Torch. That was just a random example, but you get the idea. “But other weapon does not eclipse the Greatsword” Dagger does eclipse Greatsword in terms of dps on targets with more than 50% hp, you pretty much use Greatsword to spam Gravedigger after the 50% mark and that’s about it. Dagger is already a dominant weapon and I don’t want that for Reaper, it really dumbs down the experience of the specialization.

(edited by Mobius.7041)

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Dagger has faster attack speed, higher AA dps, and better sustain, IMO, and will be a legitimate reaper weapon.

The DPS of dagger and GS auto is essentially the same. The difference is less than 1%.

(edited by Sigmoid.7082)

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Posted by: OanSur.4590

OanSur.4590

If they will not change the problem with damage scaling in shroud, depending on holding 1h or 2h weapon (even now shroud does more damage when you are holding staff instead of dagger/axe/scepter) the dagger will be effective only for dps out of shroud (no point in going reaper) or survivability with blood magic (more LF generated, more life siphoned).

Imo greatsword is superior due to its utility. Pull, blind, perma 12stacks of vulnerability, gravedigger spam… it is also more interesting than just standing still, spamming aa with locust swarm around you.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

If they will not change the problem with damage scaling in shroud, depending on holding 1h or 2h weapon

RS uses a hammer based on your mainland weapons rarity. It doesn’t have the same drawback as DS. It’s also for the very same reason that it procs weapon swaps.

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Posted by: Ezkiel.7059

Ezkiel.7059

If they will not change the problem with damage scaling in shroud, depending on holding 1h or 2h weapon (even now shroud does more damage when you are holding staff instead of dagger/axe/scepter) the dagger will be effective only for dps out of shroud (no point in going reaper) or survivability with blood magic (more LF generated, more life siphoned).

Imo greatsword is superior due to its utility. Pull, blind, perma 12stacks of vulnerability, gravedigger spam… it is also more interesting than just standing still, spamming aa with locust swarm around you.

I’d say its opposite, pull or no5 is the most useless skill on greatsword coz of range/usually buggines of pull…
Vulnerability stacks are nice but in group you can stack it quite easy so i’d say if you pick greatsword its mostly for greavedigger spam, while dagger can be paired up with focus(boon rip) warhorn(loctus+daze) or dagger (condition transfer weaknes) so its far more flexible weapon.

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Posted by: vicious.5683

vicious.5683

I’m not saying you should only use Greatsword ever in very situation, but the other weapons should not eclipse Greatsword. Do you want a speed increase? Switch to Warhorn. Do you need to remove a boon? Switch to Focus. Do you need an Immobalize and some hp back? Switch to Dagger. Those are few examples, but Greatsword should be the main weapon for Reaper, not Dagger.

But other weapon does not eclipse the Greatsword.
What are the strenght of the greatsword? A pull (count as a hard CC) (grasping darkness), an aoe blind (nightfall), a fast way to put a lot of vulnerability in a split second (Death spiral), big numbers on a foe that is under 50% HP (Gravedigger) and an AA that apply chill.

What are the strenght of the dagger? hard hitting AA, fast LF generation, a clumsy heal (Life siphon) and a once in a lifetime root (dark pact).

The greatsword do not need to be the weapon that does the most DPS for the whole fight. Doing the most DPS does not mean “being the main weapon of…”.

Both weapons needs buffs. Dagger should get sustain buffs and GS some serious dps buffs, all this just to be on par with other professions.

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Posted by: Sabre.8627

Sabre.8627

I kind of understand this, I wouldn’t completely drop the class over it though. Through the last beta weekend, I was basically just forcing myself to play with Axe/warhorn and Greatsword, even though I could see dagger would probably do better.
It just gets so sickening to spam 11111 with dagger on every build we have in every mode of the game, I’d hate if that was our gameplay for our elite spec too.

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

Dagger/WH will still be the main weapon set. Now even more, because you want to stay in RS even more then in DS. Which mean you need a lot of LF. Until devs put more LF on the rest of our weapons, we will keep using the same set.
The overall picture is still grim… :/

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Posted by: DTATL.9641

DTATL.9641

It just gets so sickening to spam 11111 with dagger on every build we have in every mode of the game, I’d hate if that was our gameplay for our elite spec too.

It’s not like spamming 22222 is much more fun. At least when I use dagger it feels like I do something compared to GS2. blind ain’t a problem as the attacks are fast and you get LF. It also works well with lifesteal as it’s fast. Cant say I’m looking forward to become a Gravediggerbot in group content.

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

I kind of understand this, I wouldn’t completely drop the class over it though. Through the last beta weekend, I was basically just forcing myself to play with Axe/warhorn and Greatsword, even though I could see dagger would probably do better.
It just gets so sickening to spam 11111 with dagger on every build we have in every mode of the game, I’d hate if that was our gameplay for our elite spec too.

I’m glad I’m not the only thinking this way.

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Posted by: gin.7158

gin.7158

Wow.. of all weapons, I love dagger the most. It hits fast, feels like you deal a lot of damage.

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Posted by: Hexalot.8194

Hexalot.8194

If they will not change the problem with damage scaling in shroud, depending on holding 1h or 2h weapon (even now shroud does more damage when you are holding staff instead of dagger/axe/scepter) the dagger will be effective only for dps out of shroud (no point in going reaper) or survivability with blood magic (more LF generated, more life siphoned).

You’re behind the times. Reaper Shroud has been coded to do the damage of 2-handed hammer. Thus it doesn’t matter if you’re wielding a one handed weapon at the time prior to entering R. shroud.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

I disagree, especially because we already pretty much use Dagger only with every Necro PvE build, there’s no diversity. Why does Dagger have to be useful for Reaper in terms of raw dps? Can’t it be just a PvP Weapon or the best choice for every other Necro build? It’s like creating a Berserker Warrior and trying to play a Condition build with Torch, but Rifle with Condition Damage does more damage, so you have to use rifle most of the times because it’s better, overshadowing the unique aspect of the Torch. That was just a random example, but you get the idea. “But other weapon does not eclipse the Greatsword” Dagger does eclipse Greatsword in terms of dps on targets with more than 50% hp, you pretty much use Greatsword to spam Gravedigger after the 50% mark and that’s about it. Dagger is already a dominant weapon and I don’t want that for Reaper, it really dumbs down the experience of the specialization.

That’s no sense…
Reaper, if anything, is the master of chill not the master of DPS. Beside, you mainly use Dagger for LF generation and then play with RS.

Would you deny to the Berserker to use longbow or sword off hand because they are condi weapon and it step on the toes of the torch?

Would you deny the elementalist to use any other OH weapon than the War horn should be the best weapon to gain the aura that tempest support so much? (note that there is not even a skill that create an aura on the war horn)

Would you deny the possibility to the dragon hunter to be effective with any other weapon than the longbow?

If you see daredevil playing sword or dagger, will you say that they cheat or whatever?

etc.

The weapon that the elite spec gain don’t define these spec, they support the theme of these spec. And the theme of the Reaper is chill, which is supported by the chill on auto attack 3rd, the chill on grasping darkness and the possibility to add chill on blind on nightfall.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: gavyne.6847

gavyne.6847

Honestly my only worry with Reaper is that Greatsword might be held back by Gravedigger spam in PvE. GS most definitely should be better than it is right now. But I think devs are hesitant to buff GS to be better in PvP because of how strong it can be in PvE against under 50% hp mobs. My wish is that they tweak Gravedigger a bit while buffing everything else on GS. This way players would actually want to use other GS skills, so we don’t turn Dagger auto spam into GS 2 spam. Because spamming 1 button is just boring as heck.

Sadly PvE is all about min/maxing on dps dps dps, everything is about what to optimally use for dps. Where as PvP dps is important, but utilities/cc/support/defense are equally as important. This min/maxing on PvE side might give Greatsword a bad name because of gravedigger spam. I can only hope the devs do something to buff all GS skills so gravedigger spam isn’t the only thing PvE players will want to use. And GS really could use a buff so GS 1 & 2 can be utilized more reliably in PvP.

Bottom line is GS can use a buff, I just think devs are hesitating to buff GS because of gravedigger spam in PvE. I hope a compromise can be made so GS receives the buff it needs, while they make PvE less reliant on gravedigger spam for dps.

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Posted by: wolfyrik.2017

wolfyrik.2017

I think GS could do with diversity and extra utility. A condi-transfer wouldn’t go amiss. Would free up a lot of build diversity options, too.

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

I disagree, especially because we already pretty much use Dagger only with every Necro PvE build, there’s no diversity. Why does Dagger have to be useful for Reaper in terms of raw dps? Can’t it be just a PvP Weapon or the best choice for every other Necro build? It’s like creating a Berserker Warrior and trying to play a Condition build with Torch, but Rifle with Condition Damage does more damage, so you have to use rifle most of the times because it’s better, overshadowing the unique aspect of the Torch. That was just a random example, but you get the idea. “But other weapon does not eclipse the Greatsword” Dagger does eclipse Greatsword in terms of dps on targets with more than 50% hp, you pretty much use Greatsword to spam Gravedigger after the 50% mark and that’s about it. Dagger is already a dominant weapon and I don’t want that for Reaper, it really dumbs down the experience of the specialization.

That’s no sense…
Reaper, if anything, is the master of chill not the master of DPS. Beside, you mainly use Dagger for LF generation and then play with RS.

Would you deny to the Berserker to use longbow or sword off hand because they are condi weapon and it step on the toes of the torch?

Would you deny the elementalist to use any other OH weapon than the War horn should be the best weapon to gain the aura that tempest support so much? (note that there is not even a skill that create an aura on the war horn)

Would you deny the possibility to the dragon hunter to be effective with any other weapon than the longbow?

If you see daredevil playing sword or dagger, will you say that they cheat or whatever?

etc.

The weapon that the elite spec gain don’t define these spec, they support the theme of these spec. And the theme of the Reaper is chill, which is supported by the chill on auto attack 3rd, the chill on grasping darkness and the possibility to add chill on blind on nightfall.

I’m not denying the Dagger from being played by the Reaper, at best it’s the opposite, I’m tired of being forced to use Dagger for every freaking build in PvE because it’s overall better, even for the Elite one for half of every fight. Even if they buff Greatsword for PvE, the Dagger won’t disappear at all, because people are still gonna use it for PvP and in combo with Warhorn/Focus when needed in every mode.

(edited by Mobius.7041)

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Posted by: Skoigoth.9238

Skoigoth.9238

Hmm is it weird that I honestly don’t see a problem here? Ignoring situational skills, how is our situation much different from lets say Staff Eles camping fire and casting #2 and #5 on cd? Or, Grenth forbid, Herolds popping their passives and auto-attacking for pretty much the rest of the fight? =P The only class that really stands out to me in that regard is Engi of course, but I don’t think every class necessarily needs rotations as complex as the Engineer’s.

I agree that most of our weapons desperately need some work, but neither Dagger nor Greatsword are at the top of the list if you ask me.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Then take it as it is, dagger is meant to build LF and greatsword is meant to have a long chill uptime. The major reason that dagger feel better than the greatsword is because it’s a fast attack weapon and it’s extremly frustrating to use a sloooooow weapon when you are used to a fast weapon. Sadly, the slow thing is part of the design of the reaper and they could buf the auto attack to outdps the dagger auto that it still wouldn’t satisfy most of the players.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: nekretaal.6485

nekretaal.6485

The greatsword is a total glass cannon.

You move slow and you have no condition defense and your non pure damage utility skills are a short blind field and a pull (neither of which amount to much).

Also your life force generation is poor (you don’t get much sustain from lifesteal, even Traited, either).

Dagger DPS which also is great for life force and life steal is also the best DPS over 50%. The greatsword is a nonstarter in Pvp and maybe PvE too if PvE is difficult.

The real problem, however, is that the choice here is a false choice. Dagger, Greatsword, nd Reaper shroud are all functionally the same thing and that everything else stinks.

#pleaseFixAxeFocusScepter

#24 leaderboard rank North America.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Dagger DPS which also is great for life force and life steal is also the best DPS over 50%.

dagger auto isnt actually the best dps above 50%. Also it being better at generating life force is subjective depending on situation. Life steal yeah its always better.

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Posted by: Lahmia.2193

Lahmia.2193

Just roll with Greatsword, screw the meta. I myself prefer hitting 5 to 8k hits on a slower weapon. I often run with meta dungeon groups on my guard but stick only to Greatsword (not bothering with mace). No one has said anything about it and I’m still very effective. The same can be said for Reaper.

Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

Just roll with Greatsword, screw the meta. I myself prefer hitting 5 to 8k hits on a slower weapon. I often run with meta dungeon groups on my guard but stick only to Greatsword (not bothering with mace). No one has said anything about it and I’m still very effective. The same can be said for Reaper.

You can’t do that if your purpose is to raid and be at your best possible. If Dagger does more damage than Greatsword in a certain situation, you can’t use Greatsword, you are only keeping your team down. If everyone in your team was doing something off like you do, the loss of dps would just adds up, making a singular mistake into a collective dps loss.

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Posted by: Matt Stacey.7415

Matt Stacey.7415

You can’t do that if your purpose is to raid and be at your best possible. If Dagger does more damage than Greatsword in a certain situation, you can’t use Greatsword, you are only keeping your team down. If everyone in your team was doing something off like you do, the loss of dps would just adds up, making a singular mistake into a collective dps loss.

You sound like the perfect of someone I wouldn’t want to raid with.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

If Dagger does more damage than Greatsword in a certain situation, you can’t use Greatsword

[PvE]: this doesnt make sense. its like saying if GS does more damage than dagger in a certain situation you cant use dagger. besides the dagger > GS for dps in all situations notion people seem to believe isnt exactly true as of the numbers last beta. Both of them arent even the strongest possible auto we have access to for when things are on cooldown.

(edited by Sigmoid.7082)

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

I don’t see the problem.

Dagger is better at 50%+ against two targets and allow you to us focus or warhorn for their respective dps skill.

GS is better against 3 targets at all time and it’s better against whatever numbers of enemies at less than 50%.

Seem that both have strength and weakness and the best way to play the reaper will be to use both weapons correctly. Sound better than just using GS or just Dagger.

Oh and Gravedigger is still powerful at 50%. I’m not sure but I think that GS will still be part of the optimal rotation at 50%. But I might be wrong there.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

You can’t do that if your purpose is to raid and be at your best possible. If Dagger does more damage than Greatsword in a certain situation, you can’t use Greatsword, you are only keeping your team down. If everyone in your team was doing something off like you do, the loss of dps would just adds up, making a singular mistake into a collective dps loss.

You sound like the perfect of someone I wouldn’t want to raid with.

And you sounds like someone who won’t clear the raid if it will be any hard, since you don’t care which spec your team is running and how they should play it, but it all depends on how much challenging and demanding the content will be. Also, no need to derail my thread, tyvm.

(edited by Mobius.7041)

The Reaper and Dagger dilemma

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Posted by: Warscythes.9307

Warscythes.9307

Didn’t we had that thread where everybody math’d together and figured out greatsword AA is pretty much on par with dagger AA? Dagger has locust swarm but GS has nightfall which actually does more dps anyway. So the only difference would be LF generation and the possibility of missing hits on GS due to its speed no?

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Dagger is better at 50%+ against two targets and allow you to us focus or warhorn for their respective dps skill.

Its not better unless you constantly interrupt your own attacks. Using your offhand skill then switching to GS and using GD off cooldown and nightfall would actually be better dps. Better still would be to somehow work in usin RS auto because with dhuumfire and onslaught its the strongest auto attack we have. Dagger/offhand is more flexible because of /offhand.

So the only difference would be LF generation

I cant remember if it did or not, GS auto lf gen working per target hit, but as long as it does GS has a situation where it will generate more LF than dagger.

(edited by Sigmoid.7082)

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Posted by: Warscythes.9307

Warscythes.9307

GS does receive LF per target hit so you are not wrong, since we are talking about raids as it is the only real place where squeezing out 1% dps matters. I imagine quite a bit of
the raid fights will be one target only since that is what I am based on. If there are 3+ targets GS blows dagger out of the water anyway in dps. Hell I think GS is better even with 2+ targets because is not like you can’t use Gravedigger above 50%, just fit it in the rotation.

I think the thing to focused on here is that Greatsword will absolutely be mandatory for Reapers in raid because of gravedigger, Dagger however is not. Assuming we math’d correctly the other day, the dps between dagger/gs should be similar above 50%. However I think it also means we probably should swap out dagger for a ranged weapon for more versatility. God knows how many times I wished I used axe when I was testing vale guardian instead of taking GS+Dagger/Warhorn.

(edited by Warscythes.9307)

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

If Dagger does more damage than Greatsword in a certain situation, you can’t use Greatsword

[PvE]: this doesnt make sense. its like saying if GS does more damage than dagger in a certain situation you cant use dagger.

There’s no debate here. If the content demands you to play the best way possible, you have to do it, or else the boss won’t die/you’re making it harder, that’s how it has always been. You don’t wanna do it because you don’t care? Then someone who does more damage than you do will take your place and this is competitive raiding in a nutshell. Wanna play casually with whatever you want? That’s your choice, but since we don’t know how much hard the raid actually will be, playing randomly might not lead to any good results.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

I imagine quite a bit of
the raid fights will be one target only since that is what I am based on. If there are 3+ targets GS blows dagger out of the water anyway in dps. Hell I think GS is better even with 2+ targets because is not like you can’t use Gravedigger above 50%, just fit it in the rotation.

GS isnt actually weaker vs 1 target. Both get outclassed pre 50% by traited RS auto when all you have left to do is auto attack.

@Mobius
You missed the point. I was pointing out the flaw that your statement assumed dagger > GS. It had nothing to do with optimal play or whatever your rant was about. Purely on your one sided statement. Also that damage is the only metric you used to measure viability and success.

(edited by Sigmoid.7082)

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Posted by: Warscythes.9307

Warscythes.9307

I imagine quite a bit of
the raid fights will be one target only since that is what I am based on. If there are 3+ targets GS blows dagger out of the water anyway in dps. Hell I think GS is better even with 2+ targets because is not like you can’t use Gravedigger above 50%, just fit it in the rotation.

GS isnt actually weaker vs 1 target. Both get outclassed pre 50% by traited RS auto when all you have left to do is auto attack.

I was more talking about LF gen against a single target here, not dps mate. Dagger will generate more LF against a single target than GS.

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Posted by: Azure.8670

Azure.8670

GS is better against 3+ more mobs, and better against enemies with less than 50% hp. Only time dagger is more dps is when said enemy is 50%+ and theres 2 or less. GS has a spot, and youre going to use it, a lot

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

. Only time dagger is more dps is when said enemy is 50%+ and theres 2 or less.

This, again, isnt strickly true true.

@Warscythes
Ahh fair enough and right you are.

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

I disagree, especially because we already pretty much use Dagger only with every Necro PvE build, there’s no diversity. Why does Dagger have to be useful for Reaper in terms of raw dps? Can’t it be just a PvP Weapon or the best choice for every other Necro build? It’s like creating a Berserker Warrior and trying to play a Condition build with Torch, but Rifle with Condition Damage does more damage, so you have to use rifle most of the times because it’s better, overshadowing the unique aspect of the Torch. That was just a random example, but you get the idea. “But other weapon does not eclipse the Greatsword” Dagger does eclipse Greatsword in terms of dps on targets with more than 50% hp, you pretty much use Greatsword to spam Gravedigger after the 50% mark and that’s about it. Dagger is already a dominant weapon and I don’t want that for Reaper, it really dumbs down the experience of the specialization.

That’s no sense…
Reaper, if anything, is the master of chill not the master of DPS. Beside, you mainly use Dagger for LF generation and then play with RS.

Would you deny to the Berserker to use longbow or sword off hand because they are condi weapon and it step on the toes of the torch?

Would you deny the elementalist to use any other OH weapon than the War horn should be the best weapon to gain the aura that tempest support so much? (note that there is not even a skill that create an aura on the war horn)

Would you deny the possibility to the dragon hunter to be effective with any other weapon than the longbow?

If you see daredevil playing sword or dagger, will you say that they cheat or whatever?

etc.

The weapon that the elite spec gain don’t define these spec, they support the theme of these spec. And the theme of the Reaper is chill, which is supported by the chill on auto attack 3rd, the chill on grasping darkness and the possibility to add chill on blind on nightfall.

Just wanted to chime in and say that your idea is mostly right (new weapons are new options, not as defining as new traits and mechanics), but you failed to realize that they added an aura to earth 4 or tempest warhorn.

And in general I feel that most people are just too comfortable with their current weapons to really consider the elite spec weapons as fully fleshed out options since we haven’t had too much time to experiment with them, but many across all classes have been finetuned enough to be amazing weapons on a huge range of builds (ie chronomancer shield, DH bow on any dps build, scrapper hammer, etc.)

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..

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Posted by: Lahmia.2193

Lahmia.2193

You can’t do that if your purpose is to raid and be at your best possible. If Dagger does more damage than Greatsword in a certain situation, you can’t use Greatsword, you are only keeping your team down. If everyone in your team was doing something off like you do, the loss of dps would just adds up, making a singular mistake into a collective dps loss.

You sound like the perfect of someone I wouldn’t want to raid with.

And you sounds like someone who won’t clear the raid if it will be any hard, since you don’t care which spec your team is running and how they should play it, but it all depends on how much challenging and demanding the content will be. Also, no need to derail my thread, tyvm.

We’ll be raiding whilst you wait for Meta battle to be updated so you can copy/paste the newest builds.

Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.

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Posted by: Mobius.7041

Mobius.7041

You missed the point. I was pointing out the flaw that your statement assumed dagger > GS. It had nothing to do with optimal play or whatever your rant was about. Purely on your one sided statement. Also that damage is the only metric you used to measure viability and success.

I get your point, but I still don’t like the idea. I was so pumped to play Reaper once I knew it was going to use Greatsword, but after I found out that Dagger has place in its single target rotarion (which is not 100% confirmed yet), it kinda ruined my expectation of the spec.

You can’t do that if your purpose is to raid and be at your best possible. If Dagger does more damage than Greatsword in a certain situation, you can’t use Greatsword, you are only keeping your team down. If everyone in your team was doing something off like you do, the loss of dps would just adds up, making a singular mistake into a collective dps loss.

You sound like the perfect of someone I wouldn’t want to raid with.

And you sounds like someone who won’t clear the raid if it will be any hard, since you don’t care which spec your team is running and how they should play it, but it all depends on how much challenging and demanding the content will be. Also, no need to derail my thread, tyvm.

We’ll be raiding whilst you wait for Meta battle to be updated so you can copy/paste the newest builds.

I don’t even know what that is, but good luck for the raid still!

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Posted by: Warscythes.9307

Warscythes.9307

You missed the point. I was pointing out the flaw that your statement assumed dagger > GS. It had nothing to do with optimal play or whatever your rant was about. Purely on your one sided statement. Also that damage is the only metric you used to measure viability and success.

I get your point, but I still don’t like the idea. I was so pumped to play Reaper once I knew it was going to use Greatsword, but after I found out that Dagger has place in its single target rotarion (which is not 100% confirmed yet), it kinda ruined my expectation of the spec.

Ehh I feel like is getting a bit whiny at this point now mate.

Now back to the topic, I would actually argue the dagger does not have its place in a pure offense single target rotation assuming the math we crunched up before are correct. Based on the math we had, GS auto should have very very similar damage to Dagger auto, difference of less than 1% I believe, however because nightfall exist which pushes GS back and is probably even.

So your rotation above 50% should probably be wells->Locust swarm->(Death spiral on opening rotation to max vul stacks ASAP if is not at 25 stacks)-> nightfall->gravedigger->Reaper form Auto then the rest is basically figuring out when the cds are up and drop them ASAP, camp Reaper form when cd is not up and hop out to drop cd when it is. If reaper form and no cd is up, resort to GS AA.

So basically you don’t really need a dagger here if you just want to max DPS since GS AA =~ Dagger AA. I would actually bring an axe here because melee disconnect will happen and ranged will be useful sometimes. Dagger should be used if LF gen is incredibly important and needed.

Of course this is assuming the math done before was right where Reaper traited Auto>GS AA=~Dagger AA and the player is not forced to constantly interrupt GS AA due to the slow speed.

(edited by Warscythes.9307)