Guild Wars 2

I was really excited for the reaper until I seen Robert Gee talking about it.
Don’t get me wrong it still looks amazing except one thing… The Shouts.

Shouts seem to be more geared for PVE/WVW.
In PVP you hardly ever see 5 people on one point, which means that your cool downs will be longer for something useless like one bone minion?

The only thing I can think of is maybe for stronghold and court yard. They just seem worthless for normal maps.

Am I the only one that thinks that, am I missing something, or maybe I’ve been doing pvp wrong and should start going five deep to cap any point?

You dont have to use the shouts as reaper. Reapers still can use all the base skills.

And if the shout didnt have so bad casttimes some could be rather useful. The elite for example if it had a 1-1.5 second casttime it would be really useful essentially a necro version of supply drop.

Of course you don’t have to use them, but there is a difference between choosing not to use them and them being next to worthless.

I’m even alright with the long-ish cast times, if they done something better or didn’t depend on having more than one opponent.

Hseinko.8306:

[…] if they done something better or didn’t depend on having more than one opponent.

But the thing is they are clearly designed to become better the more enimies get hit (Anet even said so in the Ready Up). So that fact will never change.

They aren’t out yet so you don’t know anything for sure.
In Ready Up they also keep saying nothing is final yet, so maybe a little feed back will let them know so they can look in to it. That’s all I’m going for here.

a little feedback? what robert would have to do to make them viable in pvp is to design them around normal use, no matter how many enemies are around. the trait needs a flat 20% cd reduction and % life force on use.

the cast time on util shouts need to go, heal 3/4 and elite 1s. that’s how you make them viable in pvp.

Hseinko.8306:

They aren’t out yet so you don’t know anything for sure.
In Ready Up they also keep saying nothing is final yet, so maybe a little feed back will let them know so they can look in to it. That’s all I’m going for here.

True is that i dont know for sure but they clearly stated that they wanted the shouts to be mehh with only one opponent but amazing with many and i highly doubt they want to change that kind of design descision.

And i am still thinking with a shorter casttime most shouts would be good enough to be taken in spvp especially the stunbreak and the elite.

The thing is necros have a lot of stun breakers as it is. (Plague Signet, Spectral Armor, Spectral Walk, And Well of Power.)

In spvp you’ll hardly ever see five people on a point, as it would leave two open points and allow for an easy win. They might not change or but at least I’m putting my two cents in now while it’s still in the development stage rather than when it goes live.

Who knows maybe Robert Gee didn’t think about the pvp aspect of reaper?

Hseinko.8306:

The thing is necros have a lot of stun breakers as it is. (Plague Signet, Spectral Armor, Spectral Walk, And Well of Power.)

But none has a 25 seconds cooldown. They are all 40 seconds +.

Muchacho.2390:

But none has a 25 seconds cooldown. They are all 40 seconds +.

Can’t remember the name of that one trait – Foot in the grave maybe? I dunno – but it gives you Stability on entering Death Shroud, and on a ten second timer that’s the shortest cooldown stunbreaker in the game.

Harnel.6810:

Muchacho.2390:

But none has a 25 seconds cooldown. They are all 40 seconds +.

Can’t remember the name of that one trait – Foot in the grave maybe? I dunno – but it gives you Stability on entering Death Shroud, and on a ten second timer that’s the shortest cooldown stunbreaker in the game.

Not an utility skill though…

Well… what’s powerful on reaper is the knight shroud. It will be very powerful for spectral skills user. Not to say that the traits that are currently supporting spectral skills are all merged into one very powerful trait (spectral mastery).
Spectral walk and spectral armor being stunbreaker.

Although, you’re right shout are just plain bad…

Muchacho.2390:

Harnel.6810:

Muchacho.2390:

But none has a 25 seconds cooldown. They are all 40 seconds +.

Can’t remember the name of that one trait – Foot in the grave maybe? I dunno – but it gives you Stability on entering Death Shroud, and on a ten second timer that’s the shortest cooldown stunbreaker in the game.

Not an utility skill though…

Your point being? It does the same thing in this instance, and has the added benefits of being on a lower cooldown and not taking up space on your utility bar.

Harnel.6810:

Muchacho.2390:

Harnel.6810:

Muchacho.2390:

But none has a 25 seconds cooldown. They are all 40 seconds +.

Can’t remember the name of that one trait – Foot in the grave maybe? I dunno – but it gives you Stability on entering Death Shroud, and on a ten second timer that’s the shortest cooldown stunbreaker in the game.

Not an utility skill though…

Your point being? It does the same thing in this instance, and has the added benefits of being on a lower cooldown and not taking up space on your utility bar.

But you have to give up deathly perception or dhuumfire…

So if you take those and still having a stunbreak on a short cooldown is rather nice…

Muchacho.2390:

You dont have to use the shouts as reaper. Reapers still can use all the base skills.

And if the shout didnt have so bad casttimes some could be rather useful. The elite for example if it had a 1-1.5 second casttime it would be really useful essentially a necro version of supply drop.

Pretty sure that the stun is only a fraction of the reason to use supply drop, overshadowed by the heal, immobilize and knockback+damage on turret death if traited.

Hseinko.8306:

In PVP you hardly ever see 5 people on one point, which means that your cool downs will be longer for something useless like one bone minion?

You don’t need to see 5 people on one point. A single supply crate, for instance, gives full shout effect even if there are no players there. Each Ranger you encounter brings a second target with them, and Mesmers will almost always have 1-2 (up to 3) that you can target. Many Thieves and DPS builds will have Rock Dogs, which you can hit. Elementalists sometimes have their elite Elemental, Necromancers often have Flesh Wurm and/or Flesh Golem. And your shout isn’t small, 600 range PBAoE is massive.

So really, it is quite easy for Shouts to reach a high enough level of power to be used. Assuming they are otherwise balanced, shouts really only need to hit 3 targets to get similar use to other skills, the 4th/5th hit bring them into much stronger areas than your standard skill.

My main dislike of the shouts is that scaling CD reduction I’m fine with the offense. There will be too many situations where foes can abuse it, give us something else per foe hit. The idea of the shouts are good just need polishing and again no scaling CD reduction.

The Augury trait honestly hurts the viability of shouts.

The skill itself already is more effective against multiple enemies, because it’s AOE.

The trait being more effective against multiple enemies also (and conversely, being really bad when not used against multiple enemies) only serves to pidgeon hole shouts into the same “ideal circumstance” trap that has seemed to plague necro since release.

Like, yes, YaaW is rather powerful when it’s 20 might/6s+ of weakness and a stun break every 16.25s

But when it’s every 25s? The might is only 4s, depending on targets it’s only 4 stacks of might – suddenly, it’s not so good, is it.

If the CD was consistant, then it would be far easier for me to swallow, since using it in non ideal situations would only reduce the effectiveness, but not also the CD.

TL;DR Having both the effectiveness and CD scale with number of enemies make the gap between ideal absolute best and realistic/worse circumstances too large, and hurts the viability of the skill when it gets balanced against the optimal, trait supported circumstances.

Edit: It’s even more hilarious when you look at the elite.
Terrible cast time aside, with augury it’s CD is 78 seconds, that’s pretty great.
If you are 1v1, or don’t have the trait however, 120s is pretty meh for a super telegraphed skill that can be completely nullified with a dodge or blind.

I really think people are overestimating how hard it is to hit 3 people (to make Augury worth it), that is one Mesmer, one Ranger + anyone, there are so many sources of extra procs that players bring with themselves that I don’t see it being an issue.

That isn’t to say that it is necessarily the best thing ever, since it makes shouts stronger when they are already really strong and weaker when they are already weak, but I do think people are making it out to be weaker than it will be.

Bhawb.7408:

I really think people are overestimating how hard it is to hit 3 people (to make Augury worth it), that is one Mesmer, one Ranger + anyone, there are so many sources of extra procs that players bring with themselves that I don’t see it being an issue.

Why do you limit yourself to player generated targets? Gates, boxes, windows, trebuchets,… all can be hit and will (most likely) affect Augury.

Tim.6450:

Bhawb.7408:

I really think people are overestimating how hard it is to hit 3 people (to make Augury worth it), that is one Mesmer, one Ranger + anyone, there are so many sources of extra procs that players bring with themselves that I don’t see it being an issue.

Why do you limit yourself to player generated targets? Gates, boxes, windows, trebuchets,… all can be hit and will (most likely) affect Augury.

We don’t need more superior/perfect scenarios equations in balance that has not benefited us so far unless of course the whole game is like that it’s not that so plz don’t let that live, it really feels like they are scared of necro standing out, hell DS is based on superior/perfect scenarios.

Because both the effect and CD of shouts is based on having a high number of targets and augury.

This makes it extremely front loaded and imbalanced towards large groups, and exponentially worse against less without the trait.

I don’t really think Augory is the problem, it should be plenty effective. Bhawb is right, there will be a lot of targets a lot of the time, even in pvp. The bigger issue is that the shouts are still not that great even with the reduced cooldowns. Or at least that is my thought on it.

I never said it’s not difficult to hit multiple targets.

I’m saying it makes it a joke to balance, because it is exponentially more effective against 5 people with augury, then against less targets without.

It’s the exact same trap that has left necro as a class sub par for so long – ideal situations where we are strong where we’re balanced around, which leaves us weak in less ideal circumstances.

If you think shouts are bad even with augury and 5 targets, what does that say about the skill’s balance, not to mention build variety in terms of traits.

It says that those shouts were still heavily in the process of being balanced, which they were.

Wouldn’t it make more sense if they wanted to keep the whole scaling per target thing if they did the following? Single target normal cooldown. Two targets -25% cd. Three targets -35% et etc.

This way the first additional target is conciderably more useful while still leaving room for further targets to increase the effectiveness.

Well we’ll finally get a low cooldown stability for easier stomps. The stunbreaker shout didn’t seem that bad either. Weakness to all enemies hit, plus cold shoulder is a lot of damage reduction. I think it’s being underrated here.

Bhawb.7408:

It says that those shouts were still heavily in the process of being balanced, which they were.

Which is why we post feedback.

War Mourner.5168:

Bhawb.7408:

It says that those shouts were still heavily in the process of being balanced, which they were.

Which is why we post feedback.

I’m glad someone understands the point of this post.

Necromancer is the last one hit wonder. 90% of their skills are single target.
Such as axe and scepter attacks, signet of spite, DS auto attack unless traited other wise.

I’m not going to list them all, but having shouts be dependent on targets when necro is not good at targeting more than one is silly.

I don’t really follow. You just named two weapons that were designed to hit just 1 target at a time (and scepter has an aoe snare/bleed btw), and that somehow means we’re “one-hit wonder?” (Not sure you’re using that phrase correctly either).

Anywho, I think the whole point of the Reaper was to enhance Necro AOE potential – hence greatswords. And the way they designed shouts play to this theme. So I don’t see how designing shouts to encourage players to fight multiple enemies is “silly.”

Di Nguyen.5968:

I don’t really follow. You just named two weapons that were designed to hit just 1 target at a time (and scepter has an aoe snare/bleed btw), and that somehow means we’re “one-hit wonder?” (Not sure you’re using that phrase correctly either).

Anywho, I think the whole point of the Reaper was to enhance Necro AOE potential – hence greatswords. And the way they designed shouts play to this theme. So I don’t see how designing shouts to encourage players to fight multiple enemies is “silly.”

Everyone else that uses axe either has a bounce attack or it cleaves… So how was it designed to hit one target? I’d also add dagger but a past update changed it so the auto attack cleaves, but the other two skills on main hand still only hits one target. They have a lot more skills / traits that only effects one target. I’d say more than any other class but I’m not even about to count them up.

The reaper does seem designed to expand on the AOE aspect a bit, but the shouts still don’t seem useful.

As for my “one-hit wonder” phrase I’m just using to to emphasize that they are mainly a single target class.

Will those shouts need los? Beside for me, the only bad thing atm is casting time. Ppl can burst you down faster than you can cast a shout :p + in the end it gets interupted/blinded anyway.