Guild Wars 2

One of the earliest speculations about the first elite spec the necromancer could get was an old favorite from GW1 known as the ritualist. Back when heart of thorns was announced Arena net teased that a well known hero in GW2 would become the necromancer’s first elite spec. Thus the speculation began. The clues all pointed to her being a ritualist with her communing with spirits to binding her sister’s soul to her greatsword. Her heritage and and coloration even made subtle hints in this direction. Sadly, this wasn’t the case. We got reaper instead. A spec closer in design to the Dervish from GW1 rather than the ritualist.

However, I’d still like to make the case for the necromancer eventually getting the ritualist. As the necromancer is the best fit both mechanically and thematically to fill that niche that neither the Revenant nor Engineer could ever fill in flavor and mechanics respectively.

For that we’ll be looking at the flavor, lore and mechanics to determine what design space it can fill for the necromancer and why it fits.

Flavor

The Ritualist profession in GW1 were spirit summoners who used a form of dance to lure spirits to our world in order for them to fight their battles. The ritualist would also call on powers of their ancestors as well as infuse weapons with spiritual energies. They where known to subvert the cost of powerful spells by putting that burden on their spirits as opposed to suffering it themselves and their indifference towards spirits or outright antagonism of the spirits lead them to enslave them. To assume that the Ritualist was the “Good” side of the summoners of the undead in comparison to the necromancer was a gross misunderstanding of what they actually did. Although necromancer’s have been known to summon spirits and force them to aid them, the Ritualist made it their own and really specialized in this form of undead manipulation.

Lore

According to what we currently know about the profession the ritualist has fallen out of favor among the races. Spirit summoning isn’t as potent as the more magic based summoning that the necromancer provides so its teachings and culture have been absorbed by the other professions.
Although it is unlikely that the ritualist’s teaching would fall entirely out of favor in Cantha, it is likely that they would adopt magics from the profession that is best suited for them. Necromancy. This might have been a tough Pill to swallow though since necromancers and ritualists didn’t get along in the the time line of GW1. Their rivalry seemed to be one of semantics rather than any real difference between them. This was probably due to the fact that culturally, they filled much of the same role. in Present time Tyria much, if not all, the duties that the Ritualist filled are being filled by necromancers.

Mechanics

This is the point where it gets interesting. I’ll be talking about a few different mechanics that would line up with the necromancer and point out one mechanic that I feel wouldn’t serve much of a purpose in today’s landscape for GW2. But we will be discussing its place in GW1, what it was known for in gameplay and where it could fit into GW2.

• Spirits: The most iconic part of any ritualist is the spirits. These spirits, known as bound spirits, where aggressive and defensive spirits that could aid in combat or provide much needed defenses to allies. Unlike Ranger spirits these spirits were active as opposed to passive observers of the conflict. Their function would be comparable to Turrets and gyros in terms of mechanics very different in comparison to the ranger spirits which provide passive on chance abilities. These skills would be the easiest to impliment for a necromancer. These skills would need to fill the defensive and offensive space that the spirits were known for. SoS, the most popular spirit build wasn’t the only one on the market in GW1. A protective spirit build was popular as well, running things like Shelter and diversion to mitigate large chunks of damage to a whole party that otherwise might burden a healer. Both builds should be represented here and without 3 offensive and 3 defensive it wont be possible.

• Urns: Although not as well known as Spirits urns were an essential part of the ritualist’s kit. Mechanically, Kits or shroud are most similar in terms of design. Although urns never functioned as well as they should have in GW1, they would modify the ritualist’s effectiveness as a healer, damage dealer, and increase energy. The Shroud mechanic could easily take the place of an Urn or the shroud mechanic could be replaced by an Urn mechanic without too much fuss. Unfortunately, this mechanic was heavily tied into the lore of Cantha. This puts it at odds with the flavor of other races such as Sylvari or Charr who don’t share in the human values. Though this can be worked around it is something to consider. Mechanically though, the niche that urns fill is already filled by the necromancer’s shroud so it should be able to scratch that same spot for Vets.

• Spirit weapons: This is the one mechanic I’d say is least important to the ritualist’s kit when translating the profession over from GW1 to GW2. Though, not impossible to do so. Spirit weapons where the method in which Ritualist could aid in ally damage by modifying their splash damage or granting them life stealing on hit. Necromancer already does some of this and much of the point that spirit weapons served has less use in a landscape where all professions can use melee weapons to great effect. However the way in which Spirit weapons often aided allies was through life stealing. Something the necromancer would be more than happy to gain more of or share with others.

• Healing: The Ritualist was a healing profession. To ignore this fact is to ignore the original lure to the profession in the first place. Without this in the elite spec we can’t have a ritualist. It wouldn’t be a ritualist if it couldn’t heal allies. This is where the necromancer comes in once again. Much of what the ritualist wants to do as a healer the necromancer does part of it. Its Blood magic line could be modified slightly to apply vampiric to any summoned creature while things like Transfusion or life from death functions like the healing urns of GW past. The necromancer seems to have been designed with some healing in mind. With traits like transfusion, well of blood, Signet of Vampirism its not a stretch to imagine the healer role to eventually be past to the necromancer. And what better way to push that than with Ritualist?

• Summoning/Minions: This last point is about minions. One feature of the ritualist that made it really shine in GW1 was the fact that it thrived on the dual profession system. The ritualist gained so much advantage from this that it sparked multiple unique builds, one such popular build was the Minion bomber. Although minion bombers have existed in the game before ritualist showed up the ritualist added a spin to it that put it on a whole new level. Their ability explosive growth and others like it made them a formidable summoner that could compete with necromancer’s for the MM spot often reserved in GW1. One of the most interesting builds out there, This could Push necromancer’s Minion builds back on the map in a unique way.

All and all, we do know that the necromancer’s direction for the next expansion is unlikely to be anything like this. But it would be nice to have the abilities that the ritualist could provide. If you want skill examples I’ve thought of I’ll post them a bit later. I’ll even go through ideas on how the mechanic could work and how much it could change the necromancer’s play style without it feeling like an unnatural fit for the profession as opposed to the forced and awkward Druid fit for the ranger.

kitten , now I wanna reinstall GW1 and play with my ritualist He was my second favourite after necromancer

You probably won’t be able to put everything into 1 specialization.

I’d argue that if you want to see a “spirit ritualist” on the necromancer, the easiest way would be to put some clone/fantasm (offensive spirit type) on the shroud and fill the utility skills with ranger’s spirits which would have “degenrerative effect” (defensive spirit type)

I’m not keen on how much people played “urn” on ritualist but for me that was probably the worst mechanism of the profession. Only Khanlei was vengeful used to find it’s way in my utility bar.

We can already say that spirit weapon exist in gw2. Thieves’s venom work exactly like that.

Minion build and healing are two area where anet find trouble when it come to balance. More won’t be necessary better (vampiric already give vampirism to our minion and that’s already to strong). We just need to look at how often druid’s healing number’s have been reduced since HoT release to understand that an healing spec is a huge headache that they might not want to have again. As for minions, “rise!” was “shelter” in a nutshell.

Lily.1935:

They where known to subvert the cost of powerful spells by putting that burden on their spirits as opposed to suffering it themselves and their indifference towards spirits or outright antagonism of the spirits lead them to enslave them. To assume that the Ritualist was the “Good” side of the summoners of the undead in comparison to the necromancer was a gross misunderstanding of what they actually did.

This is actually quite incorrect… or at least, it depends on the ritualist in question. Some behave more like shepherds, communing with spirits rather than dominating them, and only forcefully binding spirits when leaving them unbound would cause more harm than good, and even then, ideally only as a temporary measure until they can be moved on to the Underworld. Others do behave as you describe, but like necromancers, ritualists can be good or even depending on how they use their powers. Simply being one does not define a ritualist’s relationship with the spirits except that there is one that allows the ritualist to call upon them.

Communing with the spirit realm was outlawed under Emperor Usoku, and is no longer practiced, so from a lore stand point this can’t happen. Looking for source of such, I do remember reading it but I can’t find my source

I’ve never heard of that, and I’ve seen evidence to the contrary:

The Wartower Towertalk ‘lore of the classes’ podcast from a few years ago (2013, I think?) had Jeff and Ree saying that the main issue was basically that most of the experts in Tyria were in Lion’s Arch when it flooded, and after the flood contact with Cantha was lost entirely, and with Elona was sufficiently reduced that new experts couldn’t come in. What members remained of the old professions within Tyria weren’t enough for them to remain as distinct professions – some elements were absorbed into other professions, while others were simply lost.

draxynnic.3719:

Lily.1935:

They where known to subvert the cost of powerful spells by putting that burden on their spirits as opposed to suffering it themselves and their indifference towards spirits or outright antagonism of the spirits lead them to enslave them. To assume that the Ritualist was the “Good” side of the summoners of the undead in comparison to the necromancer was a gross misunderstanding of what they actually did.

This is actually quite incorrect… or at least, it depends on the ritualist in question. Some behave more like shepherds, communing with spirits rather than dominating them, and only forcefully binding spirits when leaving them unbound would cause more harm than good, and even then, ideally only as a temporary measure until they can be moved on to the Underworld. Others do behave as you describe, but like necromancers, ritualists can be good or even depending on how they use their powers. Simply being one does not define a ritualist’s relationship with the spirits except that there is one that allows the ritualist to call upon them.

It absolutely is correct. Just read the https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ritualist

Ritualists channel other-worldly energies that summon allies from the void and employ mystic binding rituals that bend those allies to the Ritualist’s will. They hood their eyes to better commune with spirits that grant great power and protection to Ritualists and their comrades. The energy they channel drives Ritualist skills which enhance the deadliness of an ally’s weapon and wreak havoc on an enemy’s health. The Ritualist can also use the remains of the dead to defend the living-not by reanimating corpses as a Necromancer would, but through the ritual use of urns and ashes. Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master.

I’m not just pulling this stuff out of thin air, I have a solid basis in the lore of the game.

TO put it simply, I didn’t say the Ritualists were evil. Nor did I say necromancers were good. I hinted that this is more complex than that. And No, ritualists never acted as one with the spirits. They are all binding rituals. None of the spirits summoned are willing participants. And to further aid my argument I’ll link to some more proof about their mistreatment of spirits.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Agony Literally a spirit summoned to suffer and die.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consume_Soul Eating souls…. Why if they played nice with spirits wouldn’t they just banish them? You know like how monks do.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Displacement Another spirit that suffers to aid allies. It takes damage to prevent damage on those allies. You can actually see the spirit writhing in place in game while its taking damage.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls Literally killing all spirits to heal allies. Did I mention that the spirits in GW1 would scream when they die? they do…
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit This skill is interesting because if you don’t have the offering you have to pay life. But if you have a spirit the price has been payed. The flavor is very much in line with what I’ve been talking about.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reclaim_Essence More destroying of your own spirits for your own benefit.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit_Siphon Lets just steal energy from those spirits. They’re not people anymore. They’re your slaves.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit_to_Flesh Keep the train rolling, steal its essence to heal allies.

There are tones more examples like this, in fact all of the spirits in GW1 seem to follow this line. Actively struggling against their bindings and screaming when they are killed. They don’t want to be there, they don’t have a choice. You can make the argument of “The greater good” all you like and I’d agree. However the fact that their methods are so hostile towards these spirits is something of note. They have the same philosophy towards the dead as necromancer do, just go about it in a different way.

Dadnir.5038:

Minion build and healing are two area where anet find trouble when it come to balance. More won’t be necessary better (vampiric already give vampirism to our minion and that’s already to strong). We just need to look at how often druid’s healing number’s have been reduced since HoT release to understand that an healing spec is a huge headache that they might not want to have again. As for minions, “rise!” was “shelter” in a nutshell.

Dadnir.5038:

You probably won’t be able to put everything into 1 specialization.

No but I can sure keep it true to its original incarnation.

Dadnir.5038:

I’d argue that if you want to see a “spirit ritualist” on the necromancer, the easiest way would be to put some clone/fantasm (offensive spirit type) on the shroud and fill the utility skills with ranger’s spirits which would have “degenrerative effect” (defensive spirit type)

It shouldn’t have to do that. 3 skills on the offensive side are plenty. I have thought of the 6 skills that could be used for the spirits and I’ve been tweaking those ideas for over a year. I was waiting for Arena net to make utility available in shroud since that would give us a sort of “Soul twisting” effect to work with for more defensive spirits but that seems to be a bit of a lost cause at the moment so I’ll just list off the spirits I had in mind.

• Pain: Utility. Your bread and butter spirit. Basic, Damage and a turn over of sacrificing it to cause more damage. Nothing fancy here. Just a combination of the classic of Pain and destruction.
• Wonderlust: Utility. Causes torment on attacks. Sacrifice to cause fear. Wonderlust in its previous form is way too powerful with its knock down on moving targets. However its also too iconic to be passed over.
• Call to the spirit realm: The elite. Summon Anger, Hate and Suffering. This is why I feel that 3 offensive spirits would be enough. Suddenly you have 5 active spirits on your side. Considering their closest comparison in GW2 would be turrets this is a solid number to work with. I think its flip skill should summon all of your spirits to target location, but that’s just me.
• Preservation: Heal. Heals an ally with the lowest health ever few seconds. Sacrifice it to a greater effect. Could be traited to heal downed allies.
• Shelter: Utility. Reduce damage of all allies but loses health each time an ally would have its damage reduced. How much damage and how much health it has would be up for debate. It could be 33% so it’d act like protection which could be fine. But its function would stretch to more than 5 party members which could make it a fickle spirit to keep alive. Which is how it was in GW1. I personally love shelter and that back and forth gameplay was engaging for me in its own right.
• Dissonance: Utility. This one I’ve changed completely in function from the GW1 design. My idea would be that it could pull conditions from allies onto itself rather quickly but then could be sacked to transfer those conditions to foes. Which could create a nice duality and would reward timing.

Some ideas I’ve had, you’re welcome to work with me to improve on them if you like. I have more in-depth on them, but Lets hear your thoughts.

Dadnir.5038:

We can already say that spirit weapon exist in gw2. Thieves’s venom work exactly like that.

I actually did mention this one wasn’t as important, but there is no reason that Shroud skills couldn’t house some function to aid in these sort of ideas. Though, the effect of Xinrae’s Weapon is an ability I’m most interested in in terms of Spirit weapons that we don’t have a direct equivalent off. So a skill in shroud that could function like that is desirable. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Xinrae%27s_Weapon

Dadnir.5038:

I’m not keen on how much people played “urn” on ritualist but for me that was probably the worst mechanism of the profession. Only Khanlei was vengeful used to find it’s way in my utility bar.

I’m actually not going to disagree with you. However I must point out that Urns were supposed to be similar to how kits work in GW2. So since shroud, conjure weapons and kits already function in this niche I see them as not a required inclusion. Though some of their philosophies should be implemented into the shroud dancing idea that the necromancer currently has going. If shroud was to be replaced by an urn or a couple of urns, mechanically it could function. I have a few ideas I’d like to spit ball on that, but Its a rather new idea if you want to get into it.

Dadnir.5038:

Minion build and healing are two area where anet find trouble when it come to balance. More won’t be necessary better (vampiric already give vampirism to our minion and that’s already to strong). We just need to look at how often druid’s healing number’s have been reduced since HoT release to understand that an healing spec is a huge headache that they might not want to have again. As for minions, “rise!” was “shelter” in a nutshell.

True. However I don’t think the Ritualist elite spec should have any minion skills. If you want to be a minion master as a ritualist you should have to take the minion skills and not something like rise. This would put the emphasis on those skills. My mention of them was more in terms of how the ritualist would function for a minion build.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Boon_of_Creation
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Explosive_Growth
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit%27s_Gift

These 3 skills in GW1 made Ritualist MMs unique and a Grandmaster trait in GW2 could fill that niche rather nicely that functions for anything the necromancer summons. Spirit or minions.

Another thing I’d like to point out, and I might not have stated it very well. The defensive spirits would be just that, defensive. They would not attack at all. So the spirits I listed, Shelter, Preservation and Dissonance could not benefit form that effect. However, the other skills would which would take away the need to include the spirits like bloodsong or Vampirism. Shelter wouldn’t run into the same problems as Rise due to the weaknesses it would have in comparison. First, it wouldn’t be mobile, second it would be a single entity and third the more players that are gaining its benefit the quicker it would die. Most splash damage in pvp could be enough against an unskilled necromancer to remove it however a smart player should be active with their abilities.

As for healers. Arena net does plan to add more healers. I feel that this is an area that the necromancer can shine in and I’ve stated in the past that the necromancer with a few changes could accidentally fall into that role. So why not just dedicate a spot for it?

Overall. Lets have a discussion. I’m curious to hear some ideas you might have. I Love the ritualist. And I love the necromancer. Having them together is just perfect for me.

Lily.1935:

draxynnic.3719:

Lily.1935:

They where known to subvert the cost of powerful spells by putting that burden on their spirits as opposed to suffering it themselves and their indifference towards spirits or outright antagonism of the spirits lead them to enslave them. To assume that the Ritualist was the “Good” side of the summoners of the undead in comparison to the necromancer was a gross misunderstanding of what they actually did.

This is actually quite incorrect… or at least, it depends on the ritualist in question. Some behave more like shepherds, communing with spirits rather than dominating them, and only forcefully binding spirits when leaving them unbound would cause more harm than good, and even then, ideally only as a temporary measure until they can be moved on to the Underworld. Others do behave as you describe, but like necromancers, ritualists can be good or even depending on how they use their powers. Simply being one does not define a ritualist’s relationship with the spirits except that there is one that allows the ritualist to call upon them.

It absolutely is correct. Just read the https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ritualist

I’m quite familiar with what’s in the wiki. I’ve been involved in lore discussions for a while.

As a couple of quick referrals: Ang the Ephemeral, one of the ritualist trainers in Factions, is a spirit himself. The quest he gives you involves putting some bound spirits to rest – the Envoys were supposed to come and shepherd them into the next world, but they didn’t, so you do so the old-fashioned way (note that “killing” a spirit on Tyria often actually simply means that they are sent to the Underworld). The spirits which are bound to ashes are often those of honoured ancestors.

That’s just what I found in a quick search on the wiki. I’m pretty sure there are more cases of ritualists acting more as shepherds if one looks deeper, but it’s been a while and I don’t recall where they all are. However, I think that’s enough to establish that “indifference towards spirits or outright antagonism” is, at least, not universal. Even one of the very section you bolded indicates this – the term used is ‘allies’, not ‘slaves’, ‘minions’, or some similar term.

Are they capable of binding spirits against their will? Certainly, and this distinguishes them from rangers, and I think that even the more good-natured ritualists do so – in a kind of ‘this spirit is so angry that they won’t achieve peace any time soon, but in the meantime their rage can be used for the greater good’ way. However, some regard it as a spiritual path of communicating with the spirits, and helping spirits to move on when necessary.

draxynnic.3719:

Snip

Putting them to rest likely because they have to as Priests. This doesn’t excuse them from their actions. The player will use them and likely the priests would use other spirits to banish these spirits. The fact is the in game mechanics show us how they treat spirits.

Oh and Allies? Slaves can be allies. Just because they’re allies doesn’t mean they are not slaves. Look at pokemon for example.

And don’t forget that morality can and does differ from universe to universe. In the GW universe, like many fantasy universes with a summoning mechanic, launching your summoned creatures into danger for you (sacrificing them) is totally acceptable. Binding spirits, undead, servants, elementals, etc. to your will (and using them to your own ends) seems pretty acceptable in the GW universe, as its pretty much a common occurrence. (Same thing with the pokemon universe, as Lily brought that up)

Also, with regard to Ritualists doing “evil” (if this universe even considers it evil) stuff with their abilities, don’t forget. 1) The universe might not consider it evil. 2) Not all ritualists use those skills mentioned above. Certainly, ritualists are on the (if we use IRL morality, if we can even apply IRL morality. Since we live in a world where this stuff doesn’t exist.) darker side of the spectrum though. But that just makes them fit in with necromancers a little better!

Aside from that, having a ritualist subclass would be gorgeous. I am a little biased here, ritualist was my second favorite class in GW1 (right behind necromancer!). Having it as a subtype of necromancer does make me “squee” a little inside at the thought.

It seems like you put a fair bit of thought into this idea. I’ll support it, since numbers is how players can drive a game. +1! Hopefully anet takes this under consideration for the future.

Aplethoraof.2643:

Aside from that, having a ritualist subclass would be gorgeous. I am a little biased here, ritualist was my second favorite class in GW1 (right behind necromancer!). Having it as a subtype of necromancer does make me “squee” a little inside at the thought.

It seems like you put a fair bit of thought into this idea. I’ll support it, since numbers is how players can drive a game. +1! Hopefully anet takes this under consideration for the future.

OH Yes, aside from our minor Disagreement this is the important part! Ritualists already have the darker magic theme behind them that the necromancer uses. And Ritualist was my 3rd or 4th favorite profession from GW1 depending on the day. First two being Necromancer than Mesmer with it fighting with dervish for the 3 spot.

I personally think the play style of the Dervish is fairly well represented in GW2 with the reaper elite spec and I’m not just saying that because of the scythe thing but also because the shouts have some similarities in function to flash enchantments in terms of execution.

Back on topic though.. Why not spitball some ideas? I have my own for how the elite spec could work, but I’m not infallible and getting other people’s perspective is something I’m interested in.

Alright! Why not!

To me, one thing necromancers lack is support. A common criticism is that they are a selfish class.

A lot of necromancer’s support (and offensive) strength comes from condition control and transfer. This is meant to focus on that, as well as adding in some ways for necromancers to apply boons via condition control as well.

This idea is how I’d implement a ritualist:

New Weapon: Mace

Weapon Skills:
Skill 1)
Strike Essence: You deal damage to the enemy and gain 1% lifeforce.
-Smash Essence You deal damage to the enemy, apply weakness, and gain 1% lifeforce.
—Splinter Essence: You deal damage to the enemy, apply weakness (2 stacks), and gain 2% lifeforce.
Skill 2)
Spirit Rift: You open a spirit rift at your location, creating an AoE. Enemies inside this AoE take damage and are made vulnerable (1 stack) for 5 seconds. Once this AoE ends, allies within it are healed.
Skill 3)
Nightmare Weapon: You apply torment and fear to the enemy in an AoE.

Mechanic: Spirit Shroud

Skill 1)
Channeled Strike: You deal damage to the enemy. If you have any summons, enemies around each summon is also struck by this attack.
Skill 2)
Gaze from Beyond: You blind all enemies in a cone AoE for 3 seconds. Any using a skill or attacking is instead feared for 1 second.
Skill 3)
Lamentation: You apply weakness and torment to the enemy in the area. If they are using a skill, they are stunned for 1 second.
Skill 4)
Painful Bond: You create an AoE that siphons conditions from all nearby allies for 5 seconds. After 5 seconds, these conditions are applied to all enemies in the area.
Skill 5)
Flesh of My Flesh: You lose health and create an AoE, healing all allies within it. You also convert conditions on allies into boons.

All the skills below are categorized as “Binding Ritual” skills. All of the following “Binding Rituals” behave in the following manner:

The spirits are bound to a location, and cannot move more than a few steps away from the location where they are summoned. There would be a VFX of a chain holding the spirit to the spot at which it was summoned.

Heal Skill:

1) Spirit of Siphoning (1.5 second casting time, 30 second cooldown):
You summon a spirit who remains alive for 30 seconds, and constantly leeches life from up to 5 enemies in a large AoE during that time. Allies are healed (for a percentage of the damage dealt) as damage is dealt, should they remain in the area.

When it dies, it heals allies, gives necromancers in the party extra life force, and gives warriors in the party adrenaline. The amount given is based on the amount of time the spirit was alive.

Its death can be triggered early if desired.

Utility Skills:

1) Disenchantment (1.5 second cast time, 40 second cooldown once it is killed):
You summon a spirit that attacks enemies. In addition to doing damage, this spirit rips boons off enemies who are struck by its attacks and delivers them to allies. This spirit lasts until killed.

Once Disenchantment is summoned, the skill is replaced by “Agony”.

Agony (0.5 second casting time, 30 second cooldown):
You warp your spirit of disenchantment into a spirit of agony. Agony takes conditions off allies and applies them to enemies with each attack. In addition, its attacks strip boons off enemies and replace them with conditions. This spirit remains warped for 5 seconds, after which it becomes a spirit of disenchantment again. After it has reverted to a spirit of disenchantment, the cooldown for this (sub)skill begins.

2) Rejuvenation (1.5 second casting time, 35 second cooldown):
You summon a spirit heals allies in the area (by “attacking” them with healing spells). This spirit also rips conditions off allies with every attacks, transferring them the person who summoned them. This spirit lasts until killed. This skill becomes “Empowerment” when the spirit is summoned.

Empowerment (0.5 second casting time, 20 second cooldown)
You warp your spirit of rejuvenation into a spirit of empowerment. All conditions on you are turned to boons and are then duplicated to all allies into the area of effect. For 10 seconds, the spirit converts conditions into boons for all allies in the area of effect. After those 5 seconds, this spirit becomes a spirit of rejuvenation again.

3) Entropy (1.5 second casting time, 35 second cooldown):
You summon a spirit that delivers a random condition to your enemies with each attack. This spirit lasts until it dies. Once you use this skill, it is replaced with “Infection”.

Infection (0.5 second casting time, 20 second cooldown):
Your spirit of entropy is replaced by a spirit of infection. Every time it delivers an attack, it spreads one random condition on the enemy it attacks to up to 3 other enemies in an AoE near it. In addition, it spreads this condition to you as well. The spirit of infection lasts for 5 seconds, afterwards it reverts back to a spirit of entropy.

Elite Skill:

Ritual Lord (1 second casting time, 30 second cooldown):
You summon 3 spirits who all attack nearby enemies. One of the spirits is a spirit of bloodsong, which steals life from nearby enemies and heals you and nearby allies. One of the spirits is a spirit of wanderlust, which applies torment and cripple to enemies. One of the spirits is a spirit of pestilence, which transfers conditions from allies to nearby enemies and converts enemy boons to conditions. These spirits last until killed. This spell becomes “Rebind” when it is used.

Rebind (Instant cast, 10 second cooldown):
You can use this skill to bind all your spirits to a single location. Your spirits all teleport to the location at which you designate and they remain bound there.

Traits:

Minor:
Tier 1)
Ritualist: You gain access to Spirit Shroud and Mace as a weapon.

Tier 2)
Restorative Touch: When you take conditions from allies, you apply regeneration to yourself.

Tier 3)
Essence Transfer: When you enter Spirit Shroud, you convert boons to conditions on nearby enemies and convert conditions to boons on yourself and nearby allies.

Major:
Tier 1)
Caretaker’s Charge: When you use a binding ritual, you gain swiftness and vigor for 10 seconds.
OR
Ancestors’ Rage: Your 1 ability from shroud taunts enemies and inflicts weakness.
OR
Mending Grip: When you use a binding ritual, allies near the spirit gain regeneration for 15 seconds.

Tier 2)
Spawning Power: Your binding rituals all gain 20% off their cooldown. In addition, you gain lifeforce when you use binding rituals.
OR
Spirit Light: When you enter shoud, you pulse healing and regeneration (lasts 5 seconds) for all nearby allies for 5 seconds.
OR
Spiritleech Aura: All spirits steal life with every attack and deliver it to a nearby ally (lowest health ally takes priority).

Tier 3)
Renewing Surge: Boons last 50% longer. When any of your boons end, you gain health and stamina.
OR
Clamor of Souls: Each spirit you bind gains +50% health. For each creature you have bound or summoned, your boon and condition duration increase by 5%.
OR
Spirit Burn: Your spirits inflict Burning on enemies who suffer from weakness.

As has been noted above, the ritualist as a whole is probably too big to include it all into one elite specialisation.

Broadly speaking, there are three things I could see the ritualists bringing to the table:

Attack spirits (behaving similarly to turrets)
Support spirits (behaving similarly to GW2 ranger spirits)
Urns (similar to kits or weapon conjures)

I really don’t see ArenaNet making a whole new line of kits/conjures as an elite specialisation for a profession with a conventional weaponswap. Turrets also feel as if they’d be redundant on a profession that already has offensive minions. So my prediction would be support spirits.

Shroud would probably be a ‘wield the power of the Mists’ thing.

Weapon… I don’t know. I would have gone torch, as a sort of ‘spirit light’ thing, but that appears to already be lined up. Maybe a mace that they wield as a scepter of authority.

Lily.1935:

Putting them to rest likely because they have to as Priests. This doesn’t excuse them from their actions. The player will use them and likely the priests would use other spirits to banish these spirits. The fact is the in game mechanics show us how they treat spirits.

Oh and Allies? Slaves can be allies. Just because they’re allies doesn’t mean they are not slaves. Look at pokemon for example.

Now you’re trying to back up your generalisation with more speculation. I would say that most people don’t become priests because they’re contemptuous towards the duties of a the role.

The game mechanics merely show that they call spirits to their aid. The passage you cited states the same. The best evidence you have, in fact, is the visual appearance of spirits (complete with chains) – however, I acknowledged that even the good ones bind dangerous spirits to prevent them from doing harm. It’s not much of a step from there to consider them a resource to use against one’s enemies for the greater good, but such usage does not necessarily indicate indifference or contempt towards the spirit world.

Konig would probably be able to find more of the references, since he’s done more research on the topic than I have, but there are strong indications in Guild Wars that in most circumstances, a spirit that is ‘killed’ on Tyria simply has their soul returned to the Mists without permanent harm.

The broader topic of summons is an interesting one. Most necromancer minions are essentially mindless, programmed automatons under the command of the necromancer, so while many people find them disturbing, in the Guild Wars context, there’s no moral dilemma to their use (the Shadow Fiend appears to be an exception, as it seems to be a spirit… possibly part of the necromancer having already absorbed some ritualist traits). The elementals summoned by elementalists are a bit more questionable – one could argue that the elementals you get from the glyphs might not be true elementals, but simply constructs that resemble true elementals but are, again, automatons that simply follow the directions of their creator. That said, though, elementals are generally said to be of animal intelligence (sapience is part of what seperates djinn from regular elementals), so using an elemental in combat is probably viewed as morally equivalent to a war beast.

Aplethoraof.2643:

Snip
New weapon and shroud

I’ll start with these two points since I have very different ideas on this. When I said spitball I mean slowly rolling out ideas to reach a concensise because unfortainetly I’m going to end up disagreeing with most of what you suggest this way. Its much harder to justify ideas when you have to defend 30 as opposed to one or two. So lets start with this.

Starting with what weapon the ritualist should have? Mace isn’t a good fit in my opinion. Ritualist’s iconic weapons where more Staves, Foci, Scepters and Lanterns. They could be stretched to also use axes and daggers. Much like the necromancer’s current weapon sets. Torches make sense due to their guiding light for spirits. But mace is a bit of a hard sell for me. I’d like to see a weapon that really pushes the support aspect of the necromancer and I feel Any MH or OF weapon just wont have enough to do that. A two handed weapon would work better but we would still have to fit its theme. I think the weapon on the Ritualist is where we can simulate some of the benifits that Spirit weapons granted to their allies and there are a few I’d like to highlight.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nightmare_Weapon
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Splinter_Weapon
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Xinrae%27s_Weapon

Weather or not they look the same or do the same thing is of little concern to me. Its their effect that I feel should be simulated. Giving weapons a temporary splash damage with a skill, another adding a massive but short lasting life steal and another that gives allies the ability to block an attack that also causes life stealing. This would be excellent in terms of a weapon.

Now the Question is, what weapon? Well, for my thoughts of moving into Cantha I feel we’d be in pursuit of the deep sea dragon is how I image it. So a good weapon to justify in this hypothetical expansion would be Trident. A land trident would be great since the skins already exist in the game so the level of work on this would be minimal compared to inventing a new weapon. I’d like Lantern as a weapon but this could work well.

Skills:
1. Essence Strike: Charge up a strike that chains through foes and allies alike, damaging foes and granting life force and healing allies for a small amount.
Slow to trigger but a decent hit of damage, though nothing to write home about. Gives you life force while also granting a bit of healing. The ritualist was a rather slow healer so it should also be reflected in their skills but also show how these skills are powerful when they land.
2. Lamentation: Create an Aoe that drains life from foes and heals allies in the circle for the difference. Scales with healing power. I don’t know how well the engine in GW2 could do this, but its a neat idea that I’d like to see.
3. Spiritleech Aura: Channel for 3 seconds. Allies in the area steal life from foes with their attacks during the duration. When the skill ends, grant might.
4. Splinter Weapon: Link yourself to up to 5 allies in range. When an ally lands an attack an extra bit of damage splashes off of them. Scales to their own power. Give it 5 charges. The reason I have it scale off of their power is so they can get the benefit while you can still run healing power. I don’t think the skill should crit, but who knows.
5. Spirit Boon Strike: Convert 2 boons from foes effected in target area into fear, allies gain 2 stability. I feel this one is quite strong but the necromancer needs more access to fear. And this causing fear on conversion of anything and stacking with itself could be good. Although at best its still only a 2 second fear. so maybe I’m underplaying its power.

For the shroud ability, I’ll respond to that in a bit. But I’ll leave this note on it for now. My thoughts where similar to yours from the start, but I’ve since evolved with new ideas that would work in a different direction. One such idea was replacing shroud with 1-3 different urns that could have different skills at the sacrifice of weapon swap or something similar to fuel another aspect of the ritualist we’ve known in the past. Its just a working idea so I don’t have much for it just yet. But the names of them thus far I’ve thought would be Ashes of the forsaken, Ashes of the afflicted and ashes of the martyr. That isn’t to say I don’t have a shroud alternative I still do.

From a practical point, creating a new weapon would be pretty difficult (since you’d have to apply it to all the races, create new animations for each of them. . .).

I’d have suggested torch for a weapon, but necromancers are already getting that it seems! Next xpac, unless they change their mind now.

If they do create a weapon, it won’t just be for 1 class though. It’ll be a weapon that at-least 4 or so classes can use right off from the get-go (and more would likely get access to it with elite specs).

I’d agree, mace isn’t the best choice thematically. But I can see it being a realistic choice.

I don’t think they are going to remove the core mechanic either. Consider shroud is part of the reason necromancers are so scant for blocking and mobility skills. If they removed it, they’d have to give us those skills. Which would potentially pave the way for shroud users to get them unless handled right. From their perspective, it’d be a balance nightmare (for what they want as the balance). So, we’d probably end up getting another shroud.

Ashes and a new weapon would be nice, don’t get me wrong on that score. Perhaps we will get an entirely new weapon, and elite specs will change core mechanics. I’m hoping the former is true, and I could see it happening. But I don’t see the latter being true.

As it stands now, core mechanics are essentially core stats from GWI. They may change them a teensie bit (as seen where dragonhunter got offensive versions of their auras, for example). But they’ll keep the general trend around, likely. Else-wise, it would be akin to changing them going to GWI and changing how say. . .soul reaping and critical strikes worked. Or, for a GW2 example, it would be like removing attunements from ele or shatters from mesmer. It’d undermine the classes’ fundamental component and they’d have to re-do the entire spectrum of balance around it.

My thinking on having a mace as a weapon draws from the use of ceremonial maces, in some contexts, as a symbol of authority. So a ritualist-esque character may well carry one, not for bludgeoning their enemies, but as a symbol of their authority over the spirit world. The expectation in this case would be that the mace is not acting as a melee weapon, but as a spellcasting tool (there is precedent in Guild Wars 1 – some of the scepter skins there were actually maces or morning stars of various types, the Deldrimor Scepter coming immediately to mind).

While on the topic of symbolic weapons, a sword might also work, as a means of slashing open the veil between Tyria and the Mists.

I pretty much agree with how draxynnic see a “ritualist” spec with the necromancer’s flavor.

Also, I’d like to comment about :

Urns: Although not as well known as Spirits urns were an essential part of the ritualist’s kit. Mechanically, Kits or shroud are most similar in terms of design. Although urns never functioned as well as they should have in GW1, they would modify the ritualist’s effectiveness as a healer, damage dealer, and increase energy. The Shroud mechanic could easily take the place of an Urn or the shroud mechanic could be replaced by an Urn mechanic without too much fuss. Unfortunately, this mechanic was heavily tied into the lore of Cantha. This puts it at odds with the flavor of other races such as Sylvari or Charr who don’t share in the human values. Though this can be worked around it is something to consider. Mechanically though, the niche that urns fill is already filled by the necromancer’s shroud so it should be able to scratch that same spot for Vets.

You say here some things that are right but I can’t agree with your logic. Urn mainly hinder the ritualist to give him a passive bonus and sometime a skill when you throw it away.

In my opinion, the shroud mechanism is a lot closer to the Dervich’s specificity : Avatar and flash enchant. First, the shroud transform you (like and avatar). Second, it doesn’t hinder you from auto attacking. Third, shroud trait can be related to Avatar effect and flash enchant.

example :
Spiteful spirit can be related to a lot of flash enchant that have an initial aoe strike.
Weakening shroud is pretty close to aura of thorn.
Conviction (GW1) is pretty close to a lot of our traits.
Dwayna’s avatar couldn’t be closer to our Blood magic traits.
Balthazar avatar and balthazar rage easily relate to dhummfire.
Enchanted haste is the same as speed of shadow.
Eternal aura even revive allies around you.
… etc.

Even the reaper’s spec could be an hint from anet to show us that the necromancer is closer to the dervich than he is close to the ritualist.

That doesn’t mean that a “ritualist” like spec can’t happen but soul attack are mainly mental attacks. So all the channeling stuff is closer to the mesmer while channeling a spirit is what revenant do in a nutshell.

Like I said a few time already, a shroud that produce some clone/fantasm and a bunch of stationnary spirits a la rangers would be close enough to what the common view of ritualist is. Granted how Anet restrict the necromancer into the condition’s support, we could expect spirit that affect ennemies instead of affecting allies (that wouldn’t be a bad thing). As for the shroud :

Shrd#1 : Pain (deal damage) -> Anguish (deal damage and extra damage if target is attack by one of your clone/spirit) -> Agony (deal damage and summon a clone that attack the target)
Shrd#2 : Displacement (summon a clone/spirit on your foes position) -> spirit transfert (teleport to the spirit position)
Shrd #3 : Clamor of souls (shatter your spirits to induce fear into their foes)
Shrd #4 : Explosive growth (deal damage to nearby foes and grant might to nearby allies. When traited the effect also happen near your spirits)
Shrd #5 : Call of the spirit realm (instantly create 2 spirits that apply cripple on hit)

Aplethoraof.2643:

From a practical point, creating a new weapon would be pretty difficult (since you’d have to apply it to all the races, create new animations for each of them. . .).

That is a misconception. You don’t have to create new animations for a new weapon and that doesn’t mean new animations can’t be made for old existing weapons. This is just an incorrect statement. Also, Trident isn’t a new weapon. We have them, they just can’t be used on land. It was an idea and it isn’t my only one.

Aplethoraof.2643:

If they do create a weapon, it won’t just be for 1 class though. It’ll be a weapon that at-least 4 or so classes can use right off from the get-go (and more would likely get access to it with elite specs).

That isn’t actually true. Many weapons for the longest time in Guild wars 2 only existed for 2 professions while few had wide spread use. And this isn’t to say Anet hasn’t done that before. GW1 did it multiple times. However, I was never making this argument. What point of my idea suggested that Trident would only be used on necromancer? Did I ever say “Only give trident to necromancer”? No.. No I didn’t. So this is equating something to a statement that was never remotely suggested. And I’ll say this, when people do that is irritates the hell out of me. Do not add things to my Original statements! Aka, don’t strawman my position.

Aplethoraof.2643:

I’d agree, mace isn’t the best choice thematically. But I can see it being a realistic choice.

This is bad game design. Saying that something shouldn’t be implemented because its difficult is a way to make the game stale. Does it improve the gameplay? Does it get people excited? Is it on theme? These are a few of the questions we need to ask. Don’t censor your’s or other’s ideas because you think they’re difficult. Embrace the bizarre ideas.

Aplethoraof.2643:

I don’t think they are going to remove the core mechanic either. Consider shroud is part of the reason necromancers are so scant for blocking and mobility skills. If they removed it, they’d have to give us those skills. Which would potentially pave the way for shroud users to get them unless handled right. From their perspective, it’d be a balance nightmare (for what they want as the balance). So, we’d probably end up getting another shroud.

Again I never said get rid of shroud. Merely change. Again you are taking my position and strawmaning it. I know this isn’t your intention, however I have to refer to the above statement. Just because they are now urns doesn’t mean they don’t make you enter a shroud. And Don’t use the “Balancing” argument. That too is a fallacy. its the Argument from incredulity. Because you find it difficult doesn’t mean anything. And I’d just counter that with making elite specs in the first place is a “balancing nightmare” so this is hardly an argument to be had. Its not a criticism, its just refusal to have an actual conversation about its implementation.

Aplethoraof.2643:

Ashes and a new weapon would be nice, don’t get me wrong on that score. Perhaps we will get an entirely new weapon, and elite specs will change core mechanics. I’m hoping the former is true, and I could see it happening. But I don’t see the latter being true.

Don’t hope for it, fight for it. That’s what I’m doing. I’ve been fighting on the necromancer’s behalf for years, and as a solo voice its difficult to make changes. But if more people speak up about what they want to see rather than submitting to this false idea that “its not realistic” you can help bring change. Otherwise its a self fulfilling prophecy.

Overall, you’re censoring your own ideas way too much. You seem to like my ideas as well but are reluctant to support them. Relinquish fear and just fight for what you want. I’ve been doing it and I’ll continue to do it. Don’t give arena net excuses to be lazy with design. Make them work for our money.

Dadnir.5038:

Snip

So the major issue with your argument in this regard is not what I’m saying, but what arena net has gone on record to say. Arena net has made the statement that Engineer is supposed to be a mechanical replacement for the Ritualist. And it has been stated that a few of their mechanics are supposed to be one for one.

Kits ARE supposed to be urns. The idea behind urns in GW1 was supposed to be this bundle item that modified the users abilities. In practice for GW2, Kits are more functionally similar to a weapon swap than an urn, however this doesn’t remove the idea that this was their intention. Shroud as a mechanic is nothing but a glorified weapon swap, much like Kits, conjure weapons, elements, and transforms. So when I say shroud can act like it, I’m saying that it already does by the logic that arena net has put in place. You don’t seem to like the idea out of some misplaced idea that it would somehow remove abilities from the necromancer when this is not the case.

Also, attaching spirits to shroud forces it to take a roll that it shouldn’t be forced to take. If shroud is ever to summon a creature type in the future it should be minions. and the ritualist shouldn’t be that elite spec to do that since the ritualist needs to have a means to function as a healer. Shroud is the most mechanically consistent way to achieve that.

draxynnic.3719:

My thinking on having a mace as a weapon draws from the use of ceremonial maces, in some contexts, as a symbol of authority. So a ritualist-esque character may well carry one, not for bludgeoning their enemies, but as a symbol of their authority over the spirit world. The expectation in this case would be that the mace is not acting as a melee weapon, but as a spellcasting tool (there is precedent in Guild Wars 1 – some of the scepter skins there were actually maces or morning stars of various types, the Deldrimor Scepter coming immediately to mind).

While on the topic of symbolic weapons, a sword might also work, as a means of slashing open the veil between Tyria and the Mists.

Sword was another idea I had, but I’m not one to let minor restrictions such as currently available weapons to get in the way of design space. Flavor is something though, since a mace would fit more in line with European Clerics I’m not so sure about the very eastern style of weapons that the Ritualist is based off of.

I personally wouldn’t mind a re-designed Staff as a weapon that could be swapped between two sets outside of combat. Core necromancer or Ritualist staff. But I suggested Trident since the underwater weapons are really cool weapons with unique design space that are also under used.

Lily.1935:

Dadnir.5038:

Snip

So the major issue with your argument in this regard is not what I’m saying, but what arena net has gone on record to say. Arena net has made the statement that Engineer is supposed to be a mechanical replacement for the Ritualist. And it has been stated that a few of their mechanics are supposed to be one for one.

Kits ARE supposed to be urns. The idea behind urns in GW1 was supposed to be this bundle item that modified the users abilities. In practice for GW2, Kits are more functionally similar to a weapon swap than an urn, however this doesn’t remove the idea that this was their intention. Shroud as a mechanic is nothing but a glorified weapon swap, much like Kits, conjure weapons, elements, and transforms. So when I say shroud can act like it, I’m saying that it already does by the logic that arena net has put in place. You don’t seem to like the idea out of some misplaced idea that it would somehow remove abilities from the necromancer when this is not the case.

Also, attaching spirits to shroud forces it to take a roll that it shouldn’t be forced to take. If shroud is ever to summon a creature type in the future it should be minions. and the ritualist shouldn’t be that elite spec to do that since the ritualist needs to have a means to function as a healer. Shroud is the most mechanically consistent way to achieve that.

I’m impressed! You could be a politician.

My main argument was that the necromancer was closer to a dervich than it will ever be to a ritualist and you just skiped the whole thing.

As for the shroud and spirit/clone, you should know that clones on mesmer are “hex” and that’s an area where the necromancer should be very proficient. Putting clone on the shroud would be the best way to balance things.

Also, you can put it however you like, urns in guild wars 1 were not even close to kit in gw2. The dev at the moment where they said that probably meant that they intended to create a profession that gave the vibe of a ritualist. They probably never said themself : “Urns are kits!” or “Kit alike skills are meant to be urns in gw1!” .

Also, you seem obsessed by the restauration magic of the ritualist, you seem to think that it’s the path the necromancer have to follow. There is no backbone behind this. The necromancer in GW2 is the most selfish creature, it will start to think about how to cripple it’s foes way before thinking about supporting it’s allies. I’d welcome a change of thought but, let’s be honest, that’s not where Anet want the necromancer to be.

Malicious spirits that tainted the land to hinder foes and evil spirits that harass your foes. That’s what the necromancer would create as a ritualist. The goody to shoes that sacrifice ressources for other, that’s the guardian way.

Now, traits can soothe a bit the selfishness of the necromancer by adding some positve effect on these “aggressive” spirit but that the maximum we can expect from anet.

Dadnir.5038:

snip

I refer to the argument I made in my opening post. You seem to be ignoring that in favor of your own narrative.

First, you need to understand when I talk about urns I’m talking about their intended function not their in game use in GW1. Urns could function as a shroud or even give you “Shroud of X” when used. Maybe Shroud of Ashes. The point of using the urn is purely thematic and could serve to sell the flavor of the elite spec. You don’t like that? That’s fine. You don’t have to but your narrative is narrow. You need to broaden your view. Also, I’m done arguing about the urns. You refuse to admit when you are wrong so we’re moving on.

For the spirits. I’ve mentioned this before. But the Spirits Are the primary draw of the ritualist. Yes, I know that you think linking it to shroud is a good idea, however by doing this you lock out specific design space that the shroud could fill way better than an alternative utility skill could. Spirits were not the only well known and iconic skills of the ritualist.

You mention how you think that spirits should function as Hexes, because clones. However you fail to understand that Conditions in GW2 are mechanically supposed to be hexes and for the more complex Hex mechanics that the Mesmer, in your example, used was not actually clones they were Phantasms. Minor mistake, but that was their intention. However the issue here is you are forcing an idea on the ritualist that they did not embody. Ritualists were not hexers. Necromancers and Mesmers were. But the ritualist had very few hexes and its likely that the assassin had more hexes than the ritualist. So already your concept is flawed just from out of the gate.

And the argument that the necromancer is “Selfish” isn’t actually true. its a narrative often thrown around without realization that the necromancer has tones of skills and traits designed to aid allies. The execution of said skills though in the game has been undesirable but that isn’t to say they are not there.
Here, I’ll list them for you.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gathering_Plague
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Touch
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Vampirism
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Blood
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud (arguably)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague_Signet
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Undeath
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Wall
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Power
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grim_Specter

Lets not forget about the traits.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritual_of_Life
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Bond
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_from_Death
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vampiric_Presence
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Rites
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vampiric_Rituals
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Martyr
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transfusion

See a pattern here? Condition control and raw healing. Other than a couple oddities This seems to be what the devs had in mind for the necromancer in terms of support. And the ritualist is all about that raw healing. Although their condition control in GW1 was minor at best, its clear that the idea of a life stealing healer was in their thoughts when designing the ritualist. And the necromancer shares that design space in GW2. Of course the necromancer where also life stealing healers in GW1.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Vampire This skill was once the cornerstone of a necromancer healing build that used to be used in the Tomb of the Primeval king.

Dadnir.5038:

Snip

But wait, I can even disprove that necromancers are selfish back in GW1 and not just with Order of the Vampire!
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_Ritual
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_is_Power
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dark_Fury
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Pain
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Well_of_Blood
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Well_of_Power
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Apostasy
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_Bond
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Withering_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tainted_Flesh

Now the reason I mentioned my opening post was because I’ve made the argument that the ritualist was anything but some ‘goody two shoes’. They’d enslave and torture spirits. This was obvious with their actions in game, skill descriptions and the imagery of the spirits. Their description was very much in line with the necromancer’s both at the time and currently. The Spirits that would be summoned by a Necromancer Ritualist spec wouldn’t be more aggressive than they otherwise would be, they already were aggressive from GW1. Or did you forget the spirits such as Pain, Anguish, Anger, hate, Suffering?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Agony
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Anguish
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bloodsong
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Call_to_the_Spirit_Realm (summons Anger, Hate and Suffering)
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Destruction
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dissonance
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Pain
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadowsong

And those are not the only examples of how cruel a Ritualist could be. But to assume that the necromancer is all bad and amoral and the ritualist is good and moral is just incorrect. Both of them are extremely complex and use both good and bad methods to aid themselves or allies. And much of it is based on your own perspective. The ritualist was not the ‘goody two shoes’ that you make them out to be. The Monk was, but the ritualist’s design was as a dark healer who called on dead forces to aid their allies.

Dadnir.5038:

Also, you can put it however you like, urns in guild wars 1 were not even close to kit in gw2. The dev at the moment where they said that probably meant that they intended to create a profession that gave the vibe of a ritualist. They probably never said themself : “Urns are kits!” or “Kit alike skills are meant to be urns in gw1!” .

I think, when comparing features of professions, you need to consider the different mechanics between the two games.

Guild Wars 1 had no concept of changing your skills according to your weapon – in fact, there were very few things that could change your skillbar once you left an outpost (mounts, norn elites, Kuunavang, and Dhuum are the only things I can come up with off the top of my head, and only one of those existed in Factions). Some skills on martial professions required that you use a particular weapon, but that was as far as it went – changing weapons wouldn’t change your skills, it just meant you couldn’t use the skills that required a different weapon. For spellcasting professions like the ritualist, the weapons you had in your hands pretty much only gave you an autoattack, bonus energy, and a few other minor buffs depending on the weapon.

In that context, using an urn was basically a process of trading the benefit you’d usually get from your weaponset with the benefit of the urn. In some cases, this was simply a matter of being able to ‘precast’ a spell that you could then use in combat by dropping the urn. Others would provide various buffs, such as boosting Health, boosting Energy, increasing the potency of your spells, steal health from foes striking you while holding the urn, and so on. At the most basic level, you’re trading the features of your weaponset with the features of the urn. (Some skills also had effects that were conditional on holding a bundle, although it didn’t really matter WHICH bundle. These could even be viewed as the urn equivalent to skills that require a specific weapon… sure, you COULD use these skills without holding a bundle, but they’re not really worthwhile.)

Now, in Guild Wars 2, the effect of what you have in your hands is more significant. Most significantly of all, it decides what the first five skills in your skillbar are – these are determined by the weaponset you’re holding, unless you’re holding a bundle of some form, in which case they are determined by the bundle. There are other effects of your weaponset, of course, but the primary benefit of your weaponset is the skills you provide.

In that context, what is the effect of equipping a kit? It’s trading a benefit you receive from your weapons with a benefit from the kit. Namely, trading the weapon skills with the kit skills. When Guild Wars 2 was released, the kits also had their own stats, which would replace the stats of your equipped weapon when you equipped the kits, but I’m pretty sure that’s no longer the case (although elementalist weapon conjures do provide the wielder with bonus stats on top of their weapon).

So, while it might not look like they’re very similar, when you look at what they actually do, they are pretty much as close to being equivalents as they can be given the very different mechanics of the two games. (Okay, that isn’t technically true: weapon conjures are a little closer). In fact, the urns that did damage when dropped were pretty much considered to be GW1 bombs.

(Keep in mind that ArenaNet have stated that the idea behind the ritualist was to bring an engineer playstyle into a fantasy setting that didn’t have enough technology for the traditional engineer. The ritualist mechanics are pretty much how they did engineer within the constraints of GW1. Engineer is how they do the same thing in GW2.)

A similar line of thinking, really, is needed to make the connection between reaper and dervish. Reaper is pretty obviously a transfer of Grenth dervish into GW2, but the mechanics of reaper shroud are very different to the mechanics of Avatar of Grenth, let alone the rest of the build!

Personally, if I designed a ritualist as an elite spec for necromancer (or any other profession, for that matter – necro is probably the best fit, but I could see arguments for attaching it to others), I’d probably be inclined to leave out the urns entirely – they’re not really iconic enough to try to squeeze into the limited design space of an elite spec. If I did include them, it’d be purely aesthetic (for instance, maybe placing spirits would be a matter of placing urns, with the spirit rising from the urn).

draxynnic.3719:

Dadnir.5038:

Also, you can put it however you like, urns in guild wars 1 were not even close to kit in gw2. The dev at the moment where they said that probably meant that they intended to create a profession that gave the vibe of a ritualist. They probably never said themself : “Urns are kits!” or “Kit alike skills are meant to be urns in gw1!” .

I think, when comparing features of professions, you need to consider the different mechanics between the two games.

Guild Wars 1 had no concept of changing your skills according to your weapon – in fact, there were very few things that could change your skillbar once you left an outpost (mounts, norn elites, Kuunavang, and Dhuum are the only things I can come up with off the top of my head, and only one of those existed in Factions). Some skills on martial professions required that you use a particular weapon, but that was as far as it went – changing weapons wouldn’t change your skills, it just meant you couldn’t use the skills that required a different weapon. For spellcasting professions like the ritualist, the weapons you had in your hands pretty much only gave you an autoattack, bonus energy, and a few other minor buffs depending on the weapon.

In that context, using an urn was basically a process of trading the benefit you’d usually get from your weaponset with the benefit of the urn. In some cases, this was simply a matter of being able to ‘precast’ a spell that you could then use in combat by dropping the urn. Others would provide various buffs, such as boosting Health, boosting Energy, increasing the potency of your spells, steal health from foes striking you while holding the urn, and so on. At the most basic level, you’re trading the features of your weaponset with the features of the urn. (Some skills also had effects that were conditional on holding a bundle, although it didn’t really matter WHICH bundle. These could even be viewed as the urn equivalent to skills that require a specific weapon… sure, you COULD use these skills without holding a bundle, but they’re not really worthwhile.)

Now, in Guild Wars 2, the effect of what you have in your hands is more significant. Most significantly of all, it decides what the first five skills in your skillbar are – these are determined by the weaponset you’re holding, unless you’re holding a bundle of some form, in which case they are determined by the bundle. There are other effects of your weaponset, of course, but the primary benefit of your weaponset is the skills you provide.

In that context, what is the effect of equipping a kit? It’s trading a benefit you receive from your weapons with a benefit from the kit. Namely, trading the weapon skills with the kit skills. When Guild Wars 2 was released, the kits also had their own stats, which would replace the stats of your equipped weapon when you equipped the kits, but I’m pretty sure that’s no longer the case (although elementalist weapon conjures do provide the wielder with bonus stats on top of their weapon).

So, while it might not look like they’re very similar, when you look at what they actually do, they are pretty much as close to being equivalents as they can be given the very different mechanics of the two games. (Okay, that isn’t technically true: weapon conjures are a little closer). In fact, the urns that did damage when dropped were pretty much considered to be GW1 bombs.

(Keep in mind that ArenaNet have stated that the idea behind the ritualist was to bring an engineer playstyle into a fantasy setting that didn’t have enough technology for the traditional engineer. The ritualist mechanics are pretty much how they did engineer within the constraints of GW1. Engineer is how they do the same thing in GW2.)

A similar line of thinking, really, is needed to make the connection between reaper and dervish. Reaper is pretty obviously a transfer of Grenth dervish into GW2, but the mechanics of reaper shroud are very different to the mechanics of Avatar of Grenth, let alone the rest of the build!

Personally, if I designed a ritualist as an elite spec for necromancer (or any other profession, for that matter – necro is probably the best fit, but I could see arguments for attaching it to others), I’d probably be inclined to leave out the urns entirely – they’re not really iconic enough to try to squeeze into the limited design space of an elite spec. If I did include them, it’d be purely aesthetic (for instance, maybe placing spirits would be a matter of placing urns, with the spirit rising from the urn).

I have to commend you here. I feel you’ve explained this far better than I could.

Yet, I still disagree.

Urns in gw2 can only be translate as the bundle that the thieves steal when using there special mechanism. And when a ranger or any other profession use these item, it really give you the vibe of the urns back in guild wars 1.

Kit do not give you this vibe. At most, urns on engineer would be translated as the tool kits skills. Using a toolkit skill is like dropping the ashes of the skills that you have equiped. A one time use skill.

There is also flaw in saying that the engineer is the ritualist of gw2. Spirit weapon were a huge part of the ritualist, yet nothing hint toward them in the engineer.

The problem of the necromancer in gw2 is that he is driven by a strong mindset/idea. The necromancer is not a benevolent guy that goes around giving power/heal to anyone. The necromancer is someone who dwell into a realm that other can’t even begin to understand and the shroud is how this realm manifest itself. In death there is only desolation and suffering. If the necromancer happen to support it’s allies it’s by a roundaway path. That’s the necromancer in gw2.

The necromancer of gw1 was a different breed altogether. The necromancer of gw1 often relyed on number to overwhelm it’s foes and focused it’s ressource on taking advantage of this fact.

In simple words :
Gw1 necromancer was an extrovert.
Gw2 necromancer is an introvert.

This result in 2 very different view toward it’s role into a party. GW1 necromancer was here to pump up other to the maximum and taking advantage of some situations. While GW2 necromancer struggle with the idea of giving a part of it’s precious power to other, yet still try to take advantage of some juicy situations.

The necromancer in guild wars 2 is designed to support it’s allies throught the fact that he make it’s foes less performant. It’s obvious that whatever support an e-spec will give us will still follow this mindset.

That’s why spirits that directly support allies are highly unlikely. As for spirit that behave like engineer turret… Well, I don’t really think that it would benefit the necromancer at all. Like I said, clone/fantasm while restrained by their own limit would fit better the necromancer ability to curse.

After all, if one speak about the ability to comune with another world, invoke a spirit, bind it and channel it’s power, that’s already what the revenant is doing. He is not doing it the same way that the ritualist used to do it which result in a different gameplay but he is doing what a ritualist is supposed to do in is own way. The form is different but the spirit is here.

As a final word, I’m still convince that the shroud as a mechanism is closer to the dervich’s avatars than it is to the ritualist’s urns. And flash enchants fit perfectly with how shroud traits works.

Dadnir.5038:

Snip

As someone who’s played both GW1’s and GW2’s necromancer, Your perception of the class is inaccurate. The GW1 necromancer compared to GW2 holds the same philosophy. The major difference between the two of them is that the necro from GW2 doesn’t keep to that philosophy nearly as strictly. GW2’s necromancer is far more likely to break out of its normal mold and into new ideas. The necromancer has already adopted abilities that the Ritualist once had in GW1.

And I will agree with you that the reaper has some similarities to Dervish. Their play styles are not 1 for 1, but close. This doesn’t mean that the core necromancer’s design is anywhere near close to the dervish’s design. Its not. The feel, play style and abilities are like night and day. Shroud Dancing, (using traits and sigils that trigger on shroud enter and exit) is a mechanic that holds striking similarities to Urns. Urns which do similar things to Spiteful spirit in GW2 or Life from Death. However, these are not at all similar to flash enchantments.

A little history lesson for you. The dervish used to have to remain still and cast all of their enchantments to activate them. Though the dervish was supposed to be an aggressive attacker this would cut up the flow of combat while they would be trying to execute a combo. Not only that but the Dervish had these abilities called Teardown skills. The issue that Anet ran into was that no one would use those skills, opting to run passive buff enchantments as opposed to their damage now damage later enchantments and the teardown effect would rip valuable enchantments that you didn’t want to remove such as monk’s Protective spirit. Thus Flash enchantments where born. Inspired by the flash ability in Magic: the gathering. So they didn’t break the flow of combat and could be triggered while moving without interrupting their action. And their listing type was altered slightly to distinguish them from every other enchantment in the game. This meant that the teardown skills could remove those enchantments instead rather than the monk’s or necromancer’s valuable ones. So the flow of combat couldn’t be broken and they could continue their combo.

Why do I mention this? Well, by shroud’s very nature it breaks the flow of combat. You might not notice it but it is a combat break. Flash enchantments are designed to continue the same attack pattern while a weapon swap or shroud changes the action you would take next. Flash enchantments are supposed to chain into new actions. Some abilities that function similar to this same idea would be creating a smoke screen on thief and leaping through it. Getting those combo finishers. This is what flash enchantments were designed for. Combos.

Now that isn’t to say the necromancer doesn’t have skills that at least have superficial similarities to the flash enchantments. And what I mean by that is skills that give an effect that doesn’t break the flow of combat. In fact they do. But those are the Reaper’s shouts. In terms of the first half of flash enchantments they function just like them. However their ultimate use falls flat. I highly doubt that we’ll ever get a 1 for 1 equivalent in GW2 but if we did the mechanic would be on the only profession that could simulate it. Revenant. If you want to private message me about how the revenant could do it, but I have no interest in turning this thread to be about revenant.

As for the spirits. You are still holding onto this flawed logic. Spirits are not hexes. They do not make a good 1 for 1 comparison to that, and I pointed this out to you and also pointed out that Ritualist was one to apply very many hexes, being one of the weakest magic users for the skill type in GW1 so trying to force a mechanic on spirits that they didn’t do is just not a good idea.

You also forget that the Ritualist’s iconic abilities, such as Spirit weapons would do far better on a new weapon or locked away behind shroud. Spirits on the other hand would be a far better fit on the utility bar than the other two iconic abilities. Urns or spirit weapons. I’m not saying their couldn’t be some trait trigger that summons a spirit or two in shroud, but I will say that it would be far too limiting for the design to force it on shroud when shroud is such a limited mechanic itself. Urns and Spirit weapons are iconic but not as important for representation as spirits are. The only logical path is to put them down as Utility.

Regarding the ritualist and engineer:

ArenaNet have said a few times that the ritualist was basically the engineer playstyle in the Guild Wars context. The original articles from 2006 are hard to find nowadays, but here’s one a little more recent. (You’ll need to search for ‘ritualist’ – it’s a long interview.)

Regarding urns – urns were basically bundle items you could summon. Kits, conjured weapons, and the things rangers get from Forage are, basically, bundle items you can summon. Thief stolen skills work a bit differently, but think about it: a steal skill where, instead of stealing an item and then using it once, you get to control which skill you have and how often you can use it is limited by recharge… is basically describing a toolbelt skill.

Granted, the more bomb-like urns are probably most closely modeled as individual skills… like, say, the bombs from a bomb kit. Those you hang onto while using other skills, however, are more like a bundle you hold onto and attack with while benefiting from the effect of the bundle. Elementalist conjures are the closest to those in GW2 mechanics, but kits come a close second.

When it comes to weapon spells: Weapon spells are basically repackaged enchantments, and enchantments as a group were killed from GW2. So I don’t think anything could be read from them not having an equivalent in the engineer. Granted, before the engineer was formally announced, I was expecting them to get skills which allowed them to pass grenades and bombs to their allies, which didn’t happen in the end, which could be seen as an equivalent. At present, though, the only thing even vaguely close in mechanic is, again, elementalist weapon conjures.

When it comes to the necromancer and it’s supposed selfishness: I don’t think that’s the case. Or, possibly more accurately, I don’t think it was intended to be. One of out first introductions to the GW2 necromancer, if not the first introduction, was Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon, where at one point she uses necromantic magic to heal an ally. That interview I linked also has a section where they talk about how orphaned monk players might find a new home in the necromancer, as an alternative to the more obvious choices of guardian and elementalist (search for ‘necromancer’, it’s the first hit in the interview).

And the evidence is there if you look for it. Staff is a supportive weapon (as support options stand in the pre-Druid days). A couple of wells are supportive. Blood Magic is essentially a support traitline, including a fast revive trait and the GW2 equivalent of Order of the Vampire. In practice, these tend to be underpowered or not taken, but that’s because of balancing, not indicative of the overall theme of the profession – particularly not that ArenaNet has deliberately changed the theme.

Furthermore, even if it was part of the necromancer theme to be selfish, one of the functions of elite specialisations is that they can take a profession out of its usual theme. After all, even if the ritualist had never existed, support spirits on necromancer would probably surprise people less than traps on guardian did.

When it comes to shroud and dervish… I made that connection as soon as reaper was announced. It’s pretty obvious.

However, the same nitpicks that you’re making on the engineer/ritualist comparison can be made there. Avatars do not influence your skills directly, they simply provide buffs, either passive buffs or buffs that trigger off using other skills. Shroud replaces your skillbar with the shroud skillbar. Shroud requires building up a special resource which is only used for shroud, avatars do not. Shroud gives you a second health bar, avatars do not (although Melandru gives you additional health). Shroud is something you swap into and out of regularly as long as you have the life force – avatars are something you’d have active permanently if you could (which you could in the final iteration if you don’t get interrupted while renewing the form – in earlier iterations, it had some downtime).

Personally, I think shroud is a better way of implementing the idea, but either way, the mechanics are very different.

That said, though, I wouldn’t be inclined to associate a shroud of a hypothetical ritualist elite spec to necromancer with urns. Instead, I’d see a ‘mists shroud’ as the ritualist drawing in the power of the Mists, becoming a living conduit that allows them to perform more powerful channeling magic than they can in their usual form. This would be where you’d see powerful nukes like Spirit Rift and Ancestor’s Rage, and/or, possibly, potent Mists-fuelled heals if it goes fully supportive in design.

If you like, you could consider this the GW2 equivalent of Avatar of Dwayna. :P

draxynnic.3719:

That said, though, I wouldn’t be inclined to associate a shroud of a hypothetical ritualist elite spec to necromancer with urns. Instead, I’d see a ‘mists shroud’ as the ritualist drawing in the power of the Mists, becoming a living conduit that allows them to perform more powerful channeling magic than they can in their usual form. This would be where you’d see powerful nukes like Spirit Rift and Ancestor’s Rage, and/or, possibly, potent Mists-fuelled heals if it goes fully supportive in design.

If you like, you could consider this the GW2 equivalent of Avatar of Dwayna. :P

We are actually partially on the same page here. Though Urns in my book are more thematic. And I only decided to start pushing the idea because of the leak for Guardian using tomes, which gives them an almost elementalist weapon swap type ability. Which I think that the necromancer could benefit from greatly. Though I’m not fully sold on the idea myself, but I wanted to put it out into the Aether as a possibility that could take place.

One advantage of an Urn type mechanic is having 3 possible shrouds to enter. What this does is means that you can simultaneously exit and enter a shroud with f1-f3. And the idea has been stewing in my head for a while as a way to trigger things like Spiteful spirit, Weakening Shroud, Beyond the Veil, Life from Death, or Foot in the Grave multiple times. Which holds similarities to urn builds in GW1 that would cycle through them. However I realize that their would be balance issues specifically with Food in the grave so the idea is not without flaws. There are means to balance it, such as having swapping between urns in shroud cost life force or putting a cool down on them when entering but the idea itself still interests me.

As for Skills like Spirit Rift, we’re actually on the same Page. My thought was that if it was just a shroud, Spirit rift should be a slow activation, high damage, ground targeted auto attack. Functioning fairly similar to how it did in GW1. This would also mean that Arena net could revive the trait Renewing blast for Ritualist and linking it to the auto would both make sense and give us decent control.

Personally, I’d imagine Spirit Rift as being one of the big nuking skills, probably skill 4 or skill 5 (noting that skill 4 needs to be channeled in order for Transfusion to work). I’m viewing it as tearing a rift in the air through which a storm of Mists energy emerges (probably in the form of teal lightning, if we keep to the historical ritualist aesthetic).

For the autoattack, I’d probably go with Essence Strike, hitting the target with a bolt of Mists energy, possibly being a no-projectile line attack similar to Spatial Surge in behaviour. This would also have the advantage of turning into Spirit Burn if you have Dhuumfire traited. :P

As well as skill 4 needing to be channeled as noted above, skill 2 also needs to be something that strikes an enemy so it can work with Path of Corruption.

One balancing factor for having multiple shrouds is for them to all share the same pool of life force, and to have a ‘default’ one for Foot in the Grave. Even with this, though, you’d probably have to balance them so that each is individually weaker than regular Death Shroud, requiring an elementalist-like juggling act to get the most out of them. Personally, I think it would be better to just have one really unique shroud. That said,when we do actually see the new tome mechanics we may have a better idea of what ArenaNet thinks about these things.

draxynnic.3719:

Personally, I’d imagine Spirit Rift as being one of the big nuking skills, probably skill 4 or skill 5 (noting that skill 4 needs to be channeled in order for Transfusion to work). I’m viewing it as tearing a rift in the air through which a storm of Mists energy emerges (probably in the form of teal lightning, if we keep to the historical ritualist aesthetic).

For the autoattack, I’d probably go with Essence Strike, hitting the target with a bolt of Mists energy, possibly being a no-projectile line attack similar to Spatial Surge in behaviour. This would also have the advantage of turning into Spirit Burn if you have Dhuumfire traited. :P

As well as skill 4 needing to be channeled as noted above, skill 2 also needs to be something that strikes an enemy so it can work with Path of Corruption.

One balancing factor for having multiple shrouds is for them to all share the same pool of life force, and to have a ‘default’ one for Foot in the Grave. Even with this, though, you’d probably have to balance them so that each is individually weaker than regular Death Shroud, requiring an elementalist-like juggling act to get the most out of them. Personally, I think it would be better to just have one really unique shroud. That said,when we do actually see the new tome mechanics we may have a better idea of what ArenaNet thinks about these things.

So I’m of the opinion that not every auto attack for the necromancer’s shroud abilities should function well with Dhuumfire. Ritualist is a Elite spec that I feel would have the least focus on conditions with more focus on life stealing, life force and summoning. Which would work well for it. For that reason and the renewing blast reason, I feel that Spirit rift would work as an auto. And there is no reason it couldn’t be the high damage hard hitting skill you want. However I must also point out that skill 4, the channel has issues with something like spirit rift. It was an idea I had as well when I first started to conceptualize the elite spec, the more I thought about it the more I tried to make it work, the less usable and more clumsy it seemed to be.

A homing Attack that is a spectral barrage similar to spirit barrage in Diablo III seems far more fitting to that slot than Spirit rift.

And of course they’d all share the same pool of life force. And having Foot in the grave only trigger for f1 is a great idea. That works perfectly.

Well, being compatible with Dhuumfire is simply a question of “does it strike the enemy? Yes? Then it’s compatible.” Whether this is actually a good move depends on other factors. I just like the symmetry of a bolt of Mists lightning (most Channeling offensive skills) turning into Spirit Burn if combined with Dhuumfire. It’s a nice tie-in to the past.

Regarding Spirit Rift: To me, punching kitten in reality over somebody’s head that allows the unbridled energy of the untamed Mists to explode in their face doesn’t feel like something that should be spammed every second for autoattack levels of damage. To me, that feels more like a high-impact move that the Ritualist should only be able to do every so often, but if the enemy doesn’t get out of the way it’s going to hurt. Guild Wars 1’s five-second recharge is, I think, probably the minimum interval it should have between uses.

In Guild Wars 1, its characteristics were such that it achieved high damage with a short cooldown, but this was balanced against the enemy being able to avoid the damage by getting out of the way. However, I don’t think this is a great mechanic for Guild Wars 2, since it would be hard to balance both for PvP (where targets are usually more mobile than they were in Guild Wars 1) and PvE raids (there are bosses which are essentially sessile for long periods of time if the raid team is doing their job, which would allow something like the classic Spirit Rift to pour on the damage). We see this with staff elementalist – top DPS in raids, almost unseen in sPvP because people just get out of the way of the high-damage attacks.

So to get the proper feel of a spirit rift, I think we’d be looking at a pulsing AoE, like Chaos Storm or a tempest overload. This could possible build up to a final blast (as Well of Calamity does) but it does put it in the territory of really needing at least a 10s recharge – and the longer the recharge is, the more dangerous it can be made. Putting it in skill slot 5 makes it the equivalent of Executioner’s Scythe – if you take that to the face, you will NOT be a happy camper.

Incidentally, with respect to the possibility of putting it into slot 4 – using a mechanic similar to tempest overloads could work there. While you’re channeling, you retain enough control over the opening rift that if you have the trait, you can summon waves of healing energy through the rift. Once you’ve finished channeling, the rift remains in place until it closes again – but since you’re no longer directly controlling it, you can no longer cause it to emanate healing energy for your allies. (Now, I’m not saying that this is necessarily the best way to implement Spirit Rift into GW2, but it is a workable possibility.)

draxynnic.3719:

Well, being compatible with Dhuumfire is simply a question of “does it strike the enemy? Yes? Then it’s compatible.” Whether this is actually a good move depends on other factors. I just like the symmetry of a bolt of Mists lightning (most Channeling offensive skills) turning into Spirit Burn if combined with Dhuumfire. It’s a nice tie-in to the past.

Regarding Spirit Rift: To me, punching kitten in reality over somebody’s head that allows the unbridled energy of the untamed Mists to explode in their face doesn’t feel like something that should be spammed every second for autoattack levels of damage. To me, that feels more like a high-impact move that the Ritualist should only be able to do every so often, but if the enemy doesn’t get out of the way it’s going to hurt. Guild Wars 1’s five-second recharge is, I think, probably the minimum interval it should have between uses.

In Guild Wars 1, its characteristics were such that it achieved high damage with a short cooldown, but this was balanced against the enemy being able to avoid the damage by getting out of the way. However, I don’t think this is a great mechanic for Guild Wars 2, since it would be hard to balance both for PvP (where targets are usually more mobile than they were in Guild Wars 1) and PvE raids (there are bosses which are essentially sessile for long periods of time if the raid team is doing their job, which would allow something like the classic Spirit Rift to pour on the damage). We see this with staff elementalist – top DPS in raids, almost unseen in sPvP because people just get out of the way of the high-damage attacks.

So to get the proper feel of a spirit rift, I think we’d be looking at a pulsing AoE, like Chaos Storm or a tempest overload. This could possible build up to a final blast (as Well of Calamity does) but it does put it in the territory of really needing at least a 10s recharge – and the longer the recharge is, the more dangerous it can be made. Putting it in skill slot 5 makes it the equivalent of Executioner’s Scythe – if you take that to the face, you will NOT be a happy camper.

Incidentally, with respect to the possibility of putting it into slot 4 – using a mechanic similar to tempest overloads could work there. While you’re channeling, you retain enough control over the opening rift that if you have the trait, you can summon waves of healing energy through the rift. Once you’ve finished channeling, the rift remains in place until it closes again – but since you’re no longer directly controlling it, you can no longer cause it to emanate healing energy for your allies. (Now, I’m not saying that this is necessarily the best way to implement Spirit Rift into GW2, but it is a workable possibility.)

Life blast itself is a very high damage skill. Having spirit rift on 4 still causes problems and I tried to make it work myself. I’ve been talking with friends and working on this elite spec for 2 years and Spirit rift has through out the entire process was a contentious skill that only fit in two slots. Shroud 1 or Shroud 5, and its form and function I’ve found from GW1 to be more similar to that of an auto attack rather than the other skills. Its not a movement skill so 2 doesn’t make a good option, its not a fear and making it one would remove its original flavor, 4 has problems because either it constantly hits as a pulse in the target location and makes the necromancer fairly inactive in that duration, pulsing damage which loses its flavor or you charge it up to create a massive ball to hit for all that dps in one strike which doesn’t fit the form or function of Skill 4. In either situation it loses quite a bit of its identity and won’t be recognizable as what it once was. Much like the issue with Ray of Judgement and Spiteful spirit.

Skill 5 has fewer problems but that doesn’t put it in as good of a situation for use of Spirit rift as the auto. The skill 5 follows a pattern. It is the slot that involves some form of control. And Spirit rift causing chill before the strike is an option, but not one that keep the skill interesting. Another issue is that weather or not Ritualist was to gain urns or a spectral shroud we’d have to gear the abilities accordingly. If its Urns this isn’t much of an issue as multiple urns can fill very different functions where as a single shroud would absolutely need to priorities Support before DPS. And the shroud would still need a fairly generic DPS skill on its auto. Spirit rift is generic. As cool as the skill was, its still a generic skill. And Although it was a strong DPS skill on ritualist, it wasn’t that comparable to other professions at the time who had far superior armor ignoring skills that had a similar damage cap, or the Elementalists own air spells that would ignore around 25% of all armor. Of course their is the option to have the spell strike twice, but ultimately My thought was a 1/4 second cast time with a 1 second delay before striking the ground. The DPS can be slightly higher than life blast and be functional and feel great when damaging foes since life blast in GW2 does have extremely high damage for what it is.

Go ask the Elementalist forum what they think about delayed effect skills. Wear something fire-resistant. :P

A skill with recharge <10s or so in GW1 is a suitable candidate to be an autoattack in GW2, as shown in, for instance, Fireball. My thinking, though, is less based on what Spirit Rift was and more about what it should be. The theme is that you’re tearing kitten in the barrier between Tyria and the Mists, causing an explosion of destructive energy to spew out. To me, this feels more like a high-impact skill that you throw occasionally that really hurts if the enemy doesn’t do anything to avoid it, rather than an autoattack that you throw every second to wear the enemy down. (In that vein, I see a pulsing area attack as being fitting – it’s not the same mechanics, granted, but it represents a spirit rift which remains open for a period of time, rather than releasing a burst of energy and collapsing immediately.)

A bolt of Mists energy in the form of teal lightning, as seen in skills like Channeled Strike, Essence Strike, Spirit Boon Strike, or Spirit Burn, is, I think, more appropriate as a generic autoattack.

Regarding the pattern of shroud skills… as a friend of mine who works in statistics says, it’s the third time that sets the trend. We really don’t have a particularly large sample size to determine whether the characteristics of the current shroud skills will be maintained.

Skill 2, for instance, has been a movement skill up to now, but we don’t know if that’s because ArenaNet has decided that skill 2 will always be a movement skill, or whether it’s just because that suited both shrouds: Reaper Shroud, being melee, obviously wants a gap-closer, and Death Shroud, having been originally designed as a compromise that tried to be suitable both in melee and at range, also gets a gap-closer. A future shroud that’s ranged-focused might not have a mobility skill on slot 2. It just needs a skill that’s compatible with the effect of the Path of Corruption trait. This could be, for instance, a skill that strikes in a line.

Skill 3 has involved fear up to now, but there’s no guarantee it will in the future. We’ve started with the generic ‘death’ shroud, which involves fear, and reaper mechanics were apparently inspired by horror movie antagonists, so fear makes sense there. Future shrouds might not be so fear-oriented, or may not have it on skill 3 even if they are.

Skill 4… really does have to be a channel skill to fit with Transfusion. That probably can’t be avoided.

Skill 5 – to me, the similarities between Tainted Shackles and Executioner’s Scythe are so great that taking the one thing they have in common – that each applies an effect that prevents movement at the climax of the skill – seems like it might be purely coincidence rather than a deliberate thematic link on ArenaNet’s part. One is a channeling effect that applies a condition over time, the other is an attack with a long activation time that deals significant damage in an area and leaves behind a combo field. It just happens that one applies an immobilise, the other applies a stun, and both have the effect of preventing movement. To be honest, I’d be more surprised if two skills with so many components didn’t have at least one that they shared. If the next shroud also has a skill 5 that prevents movement, we might have established a trend, but at present, it could just be coincidence.

draxynnic.3719:

Snip

Regardless of what the First skill is I’m still going to remain of the opinion that it should be a ground target AOE skill. Now, my reasoning was stated partially above. But to better clarify it has to do with traits.

Lets say the first skill does a two strike combo. You place the skill and it hits instantly then a delay and strikes again. However its still ground target. Necromancer has its place in shroud being modified to a great extent. And an old trait that was a cool idea, but poor execution would function far better with an Aoe, rather than a straight line. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Blast Its no longer in the game which no one is really complaining about but I would like it to see a return. If we are to get just a shroud. Plus if we follow the types of attacks a shroud could take we have the straight line projectile and the melee cleave. A ground target that blasts an area could be quite fun to play with while positioning.

As for the other Idea. Urns could remove this as a stipulation on my part. But i think that for an Urn set up all 3 of the urns should have the same skill 5. A knockback that damages and drops you out of shroud. A sort of smashing of the urn to great effect. Which could be cool and allow for the three to specialize a bit greater.

on The Urn note, I’m sorta changing my own argument, I know. But the argument I had was only for if we got a Spectral shroud and not if we got urns.. so that’s a thing. But this could give us the unique ideas we are both looking for without have to strictly follow the guidelines that the shroud has thus far put in place. As long as one of the skills can function with the traits than we have what we need.

Transfusion is an interesting trait when combine with this idea. Some channels could be shorter or longer depending, which would warp the healing to be higher or lower based on its duration since that’s how it works in game. And its range is also modified it seems, according to the wiki which makes this a very unique skill to play with in this regard.

So.. Um. to put it simply, if we get a Spectral shroud I think it should follow the guidelines set in place by the traits we have, such as path of corruption, but if its urns it can have a bit more creative freedom.

First, in the interests of full disclosure, from a mechanical perspective I hate ground-targeted autoattacks. Either you’re having to click multiple times for each attack, or you need to set up your interface with one of the quick ground targeting options, which can make it more awkward to place some of the other ground-targeted skills.

That aside, though, my primary consideration is lore-based:

To me, having Spirit Rift being an autoattack just feels like it’s making it seem too easy. Opening rifts should be dangerous. In the lore, opening rifts and portals carries the risk of dangerous creatures coming through, permanently weakening the fabric of reality in that location so that rifts might start opening spontaneously, and other unintended consequences.

For a skilled Ritualist, opening one small rift at a time and giving both themselves and the veil time to recover before doing it again, it makes sense that they’re able to ward off the dangers. Opening them willy-nilly, though, should be asking for trouble. First, because opening them casually like that seems like it would mean that the ritualist is treating it more like a ‘fire and forget’ skill and isn’t concentrating as much on what they’re doing, and thus is more likely to make a mistake. Second, because it’s putting more pressure on the fabric of reality, making it more likely that a permanent weakening of the veil or even a permanent tear occurs. Third, because opening a rift at autoattack rate is likely to result in overlapping rifts, and in most settings where rifts can happen, overlapping rifts is typically bad karma – they’re likely to merge and grow into something unstable.

This, I think, is what distinguishes Spirit Rift from other short-recharge skills from GW1 that were made into autoattacks in GW2, such as Chain Lightning and Fireball. While all magic is dangerous to the uninitiated, elemental magic is something where it makes sense that there’d be a point where you can throw it casually without much risk of it doing something unexpected. Messing around with the barrier between Tyria and the Mists, though, should not be treated as something you do with a click of the fingers (or the shroud equivalent).

I get that you’re looking to bring Renewing Blast back, but an old trait being reintroduced doesn’t necessarily have to work the same way, and any trait introduced for an elite specialisation shroud skill only needs to be compatible with that elite specialisation, which probably opens other possibilities. Broadly speaking, though, if the elite specialisation only gets one shroud, I’d prefer it not to have a ground-targeted autoattack. If some means of having multiple shrouds is implemented, then there is the potential for a healing-oriented shroud to have a ground-targeted heal autoattack… but this does not need to be Spirit Rift when the GW1 ritualist had so many healing skills that could be drawn on for inspiration. In fact, exposing your allies to all of the potential dangers I mentioned above seems like it would be a very poor choice for healing them.

I can see urns a Kit working, kind of like bombs except you manually have to drop it. And spirits as utilities are pretty obvious as we already have the ranger version in the game, and a stationary attacking minion in the Flesh Wurm. Whether they would be brave enough to put two profession mechanics into one elite spec though remains to be seen.

Maybe instead of urns as a Kit, they could do something like give staff a new function when the “Ritualist” elite spec is equipped, maybe giving it an AoE auto attack like Guardians but one that could be the GW2 equivalent of Ancestor’s Rage in a close range 360 strike, and then putting one or two “urn” skills on that, with Spirits as utilities.

I dont think we will ever get a e-spec that captures the gw1 ritualist (after all the ritualist had alot of options, which makes it hard to put everything in an e-spec), but maybe something that comes close to it and captures the “master of spirits” theme. Also spirits that are chained like in gw1 (would be the 6-0 skills), a spiritshroud etc. Mechanics like urns or weaponspells from gw1 arent needed my opinion.

I would probably make the e-spec focused on area control and support.