Guild Wars 2

Hi,

From AMA in Reddit:

Deathly Chill previously caused every necro that was running this trait to fight with one-another, being that the damage would only apply when your own chill stack was active. This change allows the reaper to apply attrition damage to enemies through chill. The reason it’s bleed and not something like poison is that this trait is intended to be a DPS add instead of another debilitating effect.

Reading that I can only think that there is only a thing worse than a lie, that is a half-truth.

I could understand the change for PvE. But, for PvP? (Remember that the main competition event of YOUR game does not allow class stacking)
What about the change of our main source of stab?
What about the change, not only to damage, but to durantion on chill? Do you remember that reaper is about chill?

It’s pretty soon to evaluate the big picture of the change, but we deserve a deeper explanation about the change decision.

PS: I hope to see a red post but the history is against my hopes.

pvp whine. Basically everybody complained about the reaper. From the chilled does to many things people, to the elite specs are op people, to the condi are op people , to the reaper has too much chill people and the reaper has too much stab people. Anet listened to them all and nerfed all that and some.

The change was obviously aimed at PvP, not PvE. It’s just talk to avoid the disussion.

There is one explanation for Deathly Chill change – they wanted it to go away for now. That’s it. They haven’t added any synergy with new version of trait, in fact, only reduced the potential synergy by nerfing whirl finisher on Soul Spiral.

It’s just a shame that no other GM Reaper trait could actually replace it.

That explanation is horrible. There is no way one stack of bleeding for 8 seconds after applying chill is a DPS add compared to what it use to be before. It’s like they’re trying to cover up their kitten by making some lame excuses to make it seem like this is a “buff”. I was testing the new changes on the trait last night and the damage was almost nonexistent. I’m pretty upset atm how we got hit by such huge nerfs and Mesmers remain untouched and even buffed in some areas.

Rym.1469:

The change was obviously aimed at PvP, not PvE. It’s just talk to avoid the disussion.

There is one explanation for Deathly Chill change – they wanted it to go away for now. That’s it. They haven’t added any synergy with new version of trait, in fact, only reduced the potential synergy by nerfing whirl finisher on Soul Spiral.

It’s just a shame that no other GM Reaper trait could actually replace it.

Wrong. This is a boon for PVE because now the damage from it can’t be delayed by other profession’s applications of chill. Also it now has synergy with the Blood Bond trait. Also no cooldown, so you will be stack a lot of bleed very quickly, proccing blood bond a lot more.

Just because it doesn’t have what you want it to have, doesn’t mean it isn’t really good.

It wasn’t an explanation it was a way to shrug off any real discussion. I’ve said it over and over again, they did the easiest thing they could do and offered nothing in return and all for one game play style, total BS!

bearshaman.3421:

Rym.1469:

The change was obviously aimed at PvP, not PvE. It’s just talk to avoid the disussion.

There is one explanation for Deathly Chill change – they wanted it to go away for now. That’s it. They haven’t added any synergy with new version of trait, in fact, only reduced the potential synergy by nerfing whirl finisher on Soul Spiral.

It’s just a shame that no other GM Reaper trait could actually replace it.

Wrong. This is a boon for PVE because now the damage from it can’t be delayed by other profession’s applications of chill. Also it now has synergy with the Blood Bond trait. Also no cooldown, so you will be stack a lot of bleed very quickly, proccing blood bond a lot more.

Just because it doesn’t have what you want it to have, doesn’t mean it isn’t really good.

I had tested this trait out in PvE and trust me the one stack of bleeding you get for applying chill is trash and not worth the grandmaster trait. you have to get between 4-5 stacks of bleeding and sustain them to even come close to what the damage was before. The ramp up time on the damage is just to slow.

Brighteluden.2974:

bearshaman.3421:

Rym.1469:

The change was obviously aimed at PvP, not PvE. It’s just talk to avoid the disussion.

There is one explanation for Deathly Chill change – they wanted it to go away for now. That’s it. They haven’t added any synergy with new version of trait, in fact, only reduced the potential synergy by nerfing whirl finisher on Soul Spiral.

It’s just a shame that no other GM Reaper trait could actually replace it.

Wrong. This is a boon for PVE because now the damage from it can’t be delayed by other profession’s applications of chill. Also it now has synergy with the Blood Bond trait. Also no cooldown, so you will be stack a lot of bleed very quickly, proccing blood bond a lot more.

Just because it doesn’t have what you want it to have, doesn’t mean it isn’t really good.

I had tested this trait out in PvE and trust me the one stack of bleeding you get for applying chill is trash and not worth the grandmaster trait. you have to get between 4-5 stacks of bleeding and sustain them to even come close to what the damage was before. The ramp up time on the damage is just to slow.

Then I’m curious to know what build you’re using. Because I can’t fathom how a condi build would have any of the problems you’re describing.

Brighteluden.2974:

That explanation is horrible. There is no way one stack of bleeding for 8 seconds after applying chill is a DPS add compared to what it use to be before. It’s like they’re trying to cover up their kitten by making some lame excuses to make it seem like this is a “buff”.

The dev’s point is that Deathly Chill is supposed to add dps when you chill targets, not that the new DC is a better version of the old.

For those testing this change, what are the parameters you’re testing under? I was able to get a couple of spvp games in last night, and noticed some pretty high bleed ticks from people hitting me while I have frost armor on, the whirled ice bolts, etc., and I could add in even more spammed chills without feeling inefficient, letting me cover gaps in cleanses to keep the debuff up.

That said, I did notice them get cleansed a couple of times, saw the difference in “burstiness” (especially with a terror + spectral wall build), and most of all – found the reduced ice field duration to mess with my ability to reliably get both whirl and leap finishers off in it. This is mostly due to using shroud->charge as an opening move or to reengage after being CCed. The new duration of the frozen field is disappointing.

Its a PvP nerf and yes we are nerfed, if you don’t think stability nerf along with chill reduction is a strong nerf your crazy.

Nightshade.2570:

Its a PvP nerf and yes we are nerfed, if you don’t think stability nerf along with chill reduction is a strong nerf your crazy.

I think DC needed to be altered. As far as chill duration reductions, that part was probably unnecessary, I dunno. Equally uncertain about the stability nerf.

Everybody knows Anet balance classes based mainly on sPvP, they can deny it, but we aren’t stupid. This is why I can never fully support Anet’s push for esports. Class balance have been absolute whack ever since they started to balance the game based on PvP only, screwing WvW & PvE players. And Anet’s way of “balancing” is by swinging from one extreme to another, rarely small tweaks and in the middle fixes.

Also I don’t believe this change was done by our savior Robert Gee. The Reaper we were supposed to receive was the Reaper we got during beta weekends and at launch. The man designed a wonderful elite spec to compliment the necromancer class. But we have found out later that PvP team has final say on class balance changes so these nerfs/changes likely came from the PvP team. Robert sold us a great elite spec that was fun, engaging, and competitive. But the PvP team butchered us.

Dhuumfire 2.0

Chill durations broke PvP with perma-chill, not condition damage.

/15 char

Anchoku.8142:

Dhuumfire 2.0

Chill durations broke PvP with perma-chill, not condition damage.

/15 char

why was power reaper then not op?

The change might have been in part to alleviate that annoyance. It is absolutely possible that once they decided to nerf Deathly Chill due to PvP, they took that same time to also give it a slight rework so that it ends up with better usability for PvE (and general stacking). Wouldn’t be at all surprising, lumped changes is pretty common in games.

Still a really poor change that shows a lack of understanding of why Deathly Chill is so important, and why Deathly Chill was never used in early HoT betas until buffed, though. Burning, Bleed, Torment, and Confusion are all purely damage conditions, and even if we accept Burning and Confusion to not fit thematically, Torment fits perfectly (punishes running), and even a better Bleed set of numbers would have worked.

Also the reduced chill durations make relatively little sense at the same time, unless they were considered too strong on their own (which I don’t agree with, we had to increase them in beta). Same with double-nerfing stab.

I am thinking power reaper has counters and ways its attacks can be avoided. Greatsword is slow, totally obvious, and very short range. By itself, it is not a problem. You can easily kite someone camping greatsword, or dagger.

However, chill increases cool down and nerfs movement. Combine Reaper Shroud and other sources of chill with scepter, which is very difficult to avoid, and a condition build and opponents struggle with their skills always being on extended cool down, even their mobility skills.

The real nerf was in chill durations. Switching Deathly Chill to a bleed is, I think, their way of disconnecting chill duration from Reaper’s condition damage because they knew duration needed nerfing

Once the dust settles, and if Deathly Chill is too under powered, they might adjust bleeds without needed to mess with chill, or they might further reduce chill duration without dropping condition damage from bleeds.

What if they were to re-work Deathly Chill to be “your conditions deal increased damage to Chilled targets?” That would keep Chill as an important part of condition Reaper while also remaining relevant in group situations. It also would remove the “OMG, Chill does too much damage!!111!!1!” complaint, but could be scaled to have comparable effects.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

What if they were to re-work Deathly Chill to be “your conditions deal increased damage to Chilled targets?” That would keep Chill as an important part of condition Reaper while also remaining relevant in group situations. It also would remove the “OMG, Chill does too much damage!!111!!1!” complaint, but could be scaled to have comparable effects.

That is an interesting thought – having the trait increase condition damage. Necro should have something like that because it tends to lag in condition dps. Another alternative would have been to just increase chill condition dps but I suspect one reason for the change to bleeding was to cut back the number of condition types and, because Necro was the only one with this type…

Still, Necromaner condition damage was severely dependent on one weapon and one skill, scepter’s AA, to generate its dps. Getting a bleed for free on every weapon you can get a chill on is a way of converting the weapon or utility into a weak hybrid. Greatsword, focus, and staff all benefit directly. Corruptions, shouts, sigils, runes, and finishers might now also tack on an incidental bleed for every chill so Deathly Chill should slightly improve conditionmancer build diversity.

A nerf is a nerf, though, and we all wish dps did not have to suffer because chill durations were too long in WvW and PvP.

It is easier to nerf Necro than to nerf equipment with Expertise, too.

Ofc it is not enough. Simpe truth is that they wanted to nerf the class, they searched for areas that they can, and they did. There is no logic behind some of the changes but this one.

So why is this GRANDMASTER TRAIT not 4-5 stacks of bleed for 2-3 seconds, so that it at least has some semblance of matching the DPS of the old chill damage?

That would be the difference between adjusting for mechanics versus a flat out nerf.

They really kittened this up if this is the “reason” for the change. Find a way for the server to recognize the different types of condi application (doesn’t it do that already with varying levels of condition damage each player has), or nerf it only in pve. I swear nobody at anet actually plays this game in pvp/wvw for more than a hour or two a week.

Hi,

Three days since patch. Three days playing and trying different builds.

I can’t say that condi reaper is death, but very hurt. The change to chill skills (CD, duration, damage) has a great impact (beyond I thought). Just there is no time to be effective with the resources we have right now.

For power reaper, the story is pretty the same. The new state of our main CDs makes very difficult to be effective. More CDs, less duration, less effectiveness.

We had no improvement to our survivability. In fact, we had an “adjustment”. So, History repeats itself: in the necro/reaper’s world the main source of survivability is the damage output (no blocks, no invulns, no evades,…)

I’m keeping the hope to hear an explanation in the guild chat (or in these forums).

Thank you.

Julius Seizure.4985:

So why is this GRANDMASTER TRAIT not 4-5 stacks of bleed for 2-3 seconds, so that it at least has some semblance of matching the DPS of the old chill damage?

That would be the difference between adjusting for mechanics versus a flat out nerf.

4 bleeds for 2s on every chill application would lead to some pretty ridiculous burst numbers.

You know, like what burn-Guardians can put out : D

Dead.5829:

Julius Seizure.4985:

So why is this GRANDMASTER TRAIT not 4-5 stacks of bleed for 2-3 seconds, so that it at least has some semblance of matching the DPS of the old chill damage?

That would be the difference between adjusting for mechanics versus a flat out nerf.

4 bleeds for 2s on every chill application would lead to some pretty ridiculous burst numbers.

You know, like what burn-Guardians can put out : D

we have too much bleed we need another condition burning is too strong so that is out of the way on the other hand if chill apply fear we can match it with terror, other idea would be torment or confusion

Hi,

Sixth day since path. No explanation yet.

I’m starting to think that ANet just make change without considering the bug picture (the opposite we all hear from Hugh lips in the past guild chat). After six days playing and trying builds, I can’t understand why chill (condition, trait and skills) and Infusing Terror had to be nerfed, above all seeing how other classes can stack much more conditions (heavy damage conditions) and CCs.

Hugh said that we have to consider all the game modes if we make sugestions. Well, here my question, did you (balance team) do that for this patch? Don’t you (balance team) think you forgot sPvP?

Thank you.

Tim.6450:

Anchoku.8142:

Dhuumfire 2.0

Chill durations broke PvP with perma-chill, not condition damage.

/15 char

why was power reaper then not op?

Because power reaper doesn’t get a chance to hit in the first place :^)

Lets face it, the constant pressure from chill damage was keeping us in the meta. I’ve tried various condition builds since the patch, the most effective being Dhummfire/Terror with Reaper’s Onslaught, but there are still better condition builds available if you want them;

- Condi Mesmer is brilliant… really enjoying this build atm.

- Condi Revenant is pretty decent as well, the only drawback being they have 1 set of condition based weapons…. so i just slot sword/shield for the lolz and run carrion/rampager.

- Condi Warrior – Sword/Sword / Longbow – has always been viable

- Condi Thief – Amazing in WvW with Trapper runes.

- Burn Guardian – talk about high ticks…

fonvitale.9621:

Hi,

Sixth day since path. No explanation yet.

I’m starting to think that ANet just make change without considering the bug picture (the opposite we all hear from Hugh lips in the past guild chat). After six days playing and trying builds, I can’t understand why chill (condition, trait and skills) and Infusing Terror had to be nerfed, above all seeing how other classes can stack much more conditions (heavy damage conditions) and CCs.

Hugh said that we have to consider all the game modes if we make sugestions. Well, here my question, did you (balance team) do that for this patch? Don’t you (balance team) think you forgot sPvP?

Thank you.

You realize devs don’t answer questions on the forums, right?

bearshaman.3421:

You realize devs don’t answer questions on the forums, right?

Hi,

I think that in order to contribute with precise suggestions, at least an explanation is needed to know the actual reasons of the change. We are groping otherwise.

Thank you.

PS: if devs don’t answer questions on the forums, these forums are useless.

fonvitale.9621:

bearshaman.3421:

You realize devs don’t answer questions on the forums, right?

Hi,

I think that in order to contribute with precise suggestions, at least an explanation is needed to know the actual reasons of the change. We are groping otherwise.

Thank you.

PS: if devs don’t answer questions on the forums, these forums are useless.

Forums have primarily been for players to talk to other players, in pretty much every game forum ever.

While the forum moderators watch the forums, and may occasionally relay information to the devs, the devs rarely if ever set foot on them. They have their own ways of collecting data.

bearshaman.3421:

Forums have primarily been for players to talk to other players, in pretty much every game forum ever.

While the forum moderators watch the forums, and may occasionally relay information to the devs, the devs rarely if ever set foot on them. They have their own ways of collecting data.

Dear Bearshaman,

We all know that you love the changes to reapers. I don’t care if you play sPvP, WvW, PvE, both of them, or the three games modes. That has nothing to do with coming here to say what I can expect from devs and their communication policies. Stop censuring people.

That said, I prefer to keep a constructive attitude with Anet. I’m not demanding an explanation. I’m asking for it politely. If they don’t answer is not my or your problem.

I’m not here to disccuss with you about communication so I’m not going to answer you again. Hope you understand.

Thank you.

Tim.6450:

Anchoku.8142:

Dhuumfire 2.0

Chill durations broke PvP with perma-chill, not condition damage.

/15 char

why was power reaper then not op?

Little things like trait lines that suck’d, low downed state health, stupid wandering minions, no cleave, stab access, etc.

The two major trait reworks, minion improvements, dagger and axe improvements; Necromancer back then was easy prey, even on the best builds. Top PvP players won with mind-boggling profession handicaps.

PvP has been a scourge to class balance in this game.

The wheel goes on and on about the next OP build that beats you in duels needing to be nerfed.

It’s why I hate PvP in my MMO’s.

fonvitale.9621:

Dear Bearshaman,

We all know that you love the changes to reapers. I don’t care if you play sPvP, WvW, PvE, both of them, or the three games modes. That has nothing to do with coming here to say what I can expect from devs and their communication policies. Stop censuring people.

That said, I prefer to keep a constructive attitude with Anet. I’m not demanding an explanation. I’m asking for it politely. If they don’t answer is not my or your problem.

I’m not here to disccuss with you about communication so I’m not going to answer you again. Hope you understand.

Thank you.

Umm wow ok. First off, my views on DC have nothing to do with anything I’ve said in this thread. Second off, just pointing out that what you’re trying to do isn’t an effective means of doing that, but if you don’t want to hear the truth, then I’ll leave you to waste your time how you like.

Hi,

Third week. No explanation.

More games played and the meta starts to settle down.

With the current state I think that we can say:

- There are classes which can stack much more condis (even hard damage condis) than necros can. Therefore, these classes have better condi damage than necros. Furthermore, some of these classes can apply condis while not receiving damage (invulns) or while ccing.
- There are classes which can clear condis at a much higher rate than necros can reaply them.
- There are classes which can heal at a much higher rate than the damage done by necros.

These things are features of the main classes of the current meta. It is so now and before the patch. So, why the huge nerf to necros? Was it so necessary?

I like to see the community offering solutions. It demostrates how much love we have for the game. But remember that a solution is required when a problem exists. Who has made the problem? Is our work or responsability to offer a solution if we have not even received a coherent explanation? As a customer, I am very disappointed.

Hugh said: “Players, fight for your game mode”. I say: “Anet, fight for your game. If not, look what is being developed”.

I’m not going to ask for more explanation. Bearshaman was right. I’m crying in the wilderness. I’m just going to play until get no more fun.

Thank you all.

fonvitale.9621:

Hi,

Third week. No explanation.

More games played and the meta starts to settle down.

With the current state I think that we can say:

- There are classes which can stack much more condis (even hard damage condis) than necros can. Therefore, these classes have better condi damage than necros. Furthermore, some of these classes can apply condis while not receiving damage (invulns) or while ccing.
- There are classes which can clear condis at a much higher rate than necros can reaply them.
- There are classes which can heal at a much higher rate than the damage done by necros.

These things are features of the main classes of the current meta. It is so now and before the patch. So, why the huge nerf to necros? Was it so necessary?

I like to see the community offering solutions. It demostrates how much love we have for the game. But remember that a solution is required when a problem exists. Who has made the problem? Is our work or responsability to offer a solution if we have not even received a coherent explanation? As a customer, I am very disappointed.

Hugh said: “Players, fight for your game mode”. I say: “Anet, fight for your game. If not, look what is being developed”.

I’m not going to ask for more explanation. Bearshaman was right. I’m crying in the wilderness. I’m just going to play until get no more fun.

Thank you all.

Just out of curiousity, does threatening to take your ball home ever work? I mean why not just like offer a solution in a different thread? Constructive criticism would probably draw a response faster than passive aggressive comments.

Caredelth.1324:

fonvitale.9621:

Hi,

Third week. No explanation.

More games played and the meta starts to settle down.

With the current state I think that we can say:

- There are classes which can stack much more condis (even hard damage condis) than necros can. Therefore, these classes have better condi damage than necros. Furthermore, some of these classes can apply condis while not receiving damage (invulns) or while ccing.
- There are classes which can clear condis at a much higher rate than necros can reaply them.
- There are classes which can heal at a much higher rate than the damage done by necros.

These things are features of the main classes of the current meta. It is so now and before the patch. So, why the huge nerf to necros? Was it so necessary?

I like to see the community offering solutions. It demostrates how much love we have for the game. But remember that a solution is required when a problem exists. Who has made the problem? Is our work or responsability to offer a solution if we have not even received a coherent explanation? As a customer, I am very disappointed.

Hugh said: “Players, fight for your game mode”. I say: “Anet, fight for your game. If not, look what is being developed”.

I’m not going to ask for more explanation. Bearshaman was right. I’m crying in the wilderness. I’m just going to play until get no more fun.

Thank you all.

Just out of curiousity, does threatening to take your ball home ever work? I mean why not just like offer a solution in a different thread? Constructive criticism would probably draw a response faster than passive aggressive comments.

To be honest he have a point the game is so inbalance that sometimes is hard to play a class that you love , and sometimes people get tired of giving solutios and being ignored for so long so they just don’t care any more , thats why he says just play the game until you have no more fun or get tired of it

Brokensunday.4098:

Caredelth.1324:

fonvitale.9621:

Hi,

Third week. No explanation.

More games played and the meta starts to settle down.

With the current state I think that we can say:

- There are classes which can stack much more condis (even hard damage condis) than necros can. Therefore, these classes have better condi damage than necros. Furthermore, some of these classes can apply condis while not receiving damage (invulns) or while ccing.
- There are classes which can clear condis at a much higher rate than necros can reaply them.
- There are classes which can heal at a much higher rate than the damage done by necros.

These things are features of the main classes of the current meta. It is so now and before the patch. So, why the huge nerf to necros? Was it so necessary?

I like to see the community offering solutions. It demostrates how much love we have for the game. But remember that a solution is required when a problem exists. Who has made the problem? Is our work or responsability to offer a solution if we have not even received a coherent explanation? As a customer, I am very disappointed.

Hugh said: “Players, fight for your game mode”. I say: “Anet, fight for your game. If not, look what is being developed”.

I’m not going to ask for more explanation. Bearshaman was right. I’m crying in the wilderness. I’m just going to play until get no more fun.

Thank you all.

Just out of curiousity, does threatening to take your ball home ever work? I mean why not just like offer a solution in a different thread? Constructive criticism would probably draw a response faster than passive aggressive comments.

To be honest he have a point the game is so inbalance that sometimes is hard to play a class that you love , and sometimes people get tired of giving solutios and being ignored for so long so they just don’t care any more , thats why he says just play the game until you have no more fun or get tired of it

Maybe you should read these basic instructions.

fonvitale.9621:

unconstructive passive-aggressiveness

These forums are not your personal blog