(edited by sorrow.2364)
The fix for Terrormancers
No, just no.
Fear is much more in sync with Conditionmancers. We need the control to win with damage over time.
Interesting idea, but it’d just make us overpowered in a different way. Most of our problems lie in traits/trait distribution, but making it scale with power would be a bit wrong. Power works, and works quite well, it doesn’t need a buff, however, Vampires/Minionmancers are simply jokes in tPvP. While I dislike Minions considerably, I cannot be biased in the fact that they need a buff.
I posted the below a little while ago, these would keep Necro competitive, while still making other builds viable and nerfing the ones too strong.
TheMightyAltroll.3485
- Remove Fear from Spectral Wall
- Add Torment (6s) to Spectral Wall
- Remove “Dhuumfire”
- Add “Strength of the Underworld” to Grandmaster Spite tree.
Strength of the Underworld
Wells last 50% longer
- Make Greater Marks default on Staff
- Move Staff Mastery to replace Greater Marks
- Move “Death Nova” down to Master Traits
- Add “Vengeful Servants” to Grandmaster Death Magic tree
Vengeful Servants
When a Minion dies, you receive Fury(5s) and Vigor(5s) (Does not apply to Jagged horrors)
- Change “Vampiric Precision” to heal yourself for 20% of the damage you inflict from Critical Hits
- Move “Vampiric Precision” to Grandmaster Blood Magic tree
- Move “Vampiric Rituals” to Master Blood Magic tree.
- Move “Terror” to Grandmaster tree.
- Move “Withering Precision” to Master tree.
- Move “Target the Weak” to Grandmaster Spite trait
- Remove “Siphoned Power”
- Move “Furious Demise” to Minor Curses trait
- Move “Barbed Precision” to Master Curses Trait
- Increase bleed duration on “Barbed Precision” bleeds by 100%
- Add new trait “Myopathy” to Grandmaster Curses trait to replace “Target the Weak”
Myopathy
Apply 2 seconds of Immobilize and vulnerability when you apply Weakness (10 second CD)
- Remove trait “Reanimator”
- Move “Ritual of Protection” to replace “Reanimator” (Only applies protection once per well)
- Add new trait “Summoner” in Master Traits
Summoner
Summon 2 Jagged Horrors when you use a healing skill in combat. Capped at a maximum of 5 Jagged Horrors. (Remove the constant negative health effects from Jagged Horrors)
- Remove trait “Strength of Undeath”
- Add trait “Specter” to replace “Strength of Undeath”
Specter
You regenerate 50% of your life force when out of combat.Above is a nerf to the OP Terrormancer you see lately, and a buff to lesser used builds, also a buff to make Vampires viable. Numerous fixes to crappy traits too.
Contact me ingame for Necro, Ranger, Mesmer, and Thief advice.
(edited by TheMightyAltroll.3485)
Vampiric needs a buff in deed, but MM buff wont bring much , so long as AI is dumb.
I repeat again, Terrormancer is not OP, everyone burstet necro down in first place, but now they are focusing other classes!
No, just no.
Fear is much more in sync with Conditionmancers. We need the control to win with damage over time.
We still have control. Fear is still there.
It just forces the Condimancers to chose between Dhuumfire and Terror.
Either pick the power traitline for Dhuumfire for increased raw damage and condition duration, or pick the Soul Reaping traitline for Terror (but at lower damage, compensated by the increased Torment stacks) and increased defensive capabilities.
It opens two different conditionmancers build, splitting the high-CC and high-damage in two different builds.
It’s just the combination of both Terror and Dhuumfire that makes condimancers too strong.
Interesting idea, but it’d just make us overpowered in a different way. Most of our problems lie in traits/trait distribution, but making it scale with power would be a bit wrong. Power works, and works quite well, it doesn’t need a buff, however, Vampires/Minionmancers are simply jokes in tPvP. While I dislike Minions considerably, I cannot be biased in the fact that they need a buff.
This is a solution to conditionmancers and powermancers problem in PvP.
I do think that Blood Magic needs to be looked at, and I actually like your ideas but this topic is aimed to fix Terror in particular.
Powermancers need some love, they don’t work as good as other profession’s power build. They lack the innate defensive capabilities of other profession and also cheap bursty damage.
Making Terror a power trait will:
- Makes staff more viable as a power weapon (Reaper Mark will deal sweet damage)
- Gives Powermancers more viable option instead of only Deathly Perception and Life Blast spamming
- Gives Powermancers increased defensive capabilities due to Deatly Perception and Foot in the Grave being no more mutually exclusive.
- Opens to new high-CC power builds which can actually find a place in the meta.
- Takes away from Conditionmancers the Terror trait, since they no more needs it because of Torment and Burning.
- Gives Necro better sustained when combined with Dhuumfire.
Np. It’d totally wreck pre-patch builds and make me, included, quit necromancer in any form of pvp. I agree you can switch places for traits Master of Terror and Terror, that’s okay and enough. Moving terror to GM tree or spite is just….joke.
[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144
Np. It’d totally wreck pre-patch builds and make me, included, quit necromancer in any form of pvp. I agree you can switch places for traits Master of Terror and Terror, that’s okay and enough. Moving terror to GM tree or spite is just….joke.
I didn’t say to switch Master of Terror and Terror. Neither to move it to the Spite trait.
I’ve said to merge Master of Terror and Terror and move it to the GM of the Soul Reaping traitline, make it scale with power and move Foot in the Grave to Master tier.
Then make a trait into the Curses traitline which inflicts Torment.
How can these changes make you quit Necromancer?
These changes actually encourage build diversity and only hurts Conditionmancers builds with both Terror and Dhuumfire.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Absolutely not. Fear being the Necro’s unique damaging condition (other professions have fear, no one else’s deals damage) is what makes condi Necros somewhat viable and scary. That should not be changed.
If Terrormancers are too good, just revert the change to Spectral Wall and they should be fine again.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
Absolutely not. Fear being the Necro’s unique damaging condition (other professions have fear, no one else’s deals damage) is what makes condi Necros somewhat viable and scary. That should not be changed.
If Terrormancers are too good, just revert the change to Spectral Wall and they should be fine again.
Terror + Torment + Burn = OP
One of those things has got to go. It’s not the fact that they are there, it’s the fact that they have so much synergy. Necro without Terror would simply be an Engineer, the fact that it’s a Hard CC condition that ticks for so much, allowing other conditions to tick for so much, makes it way too strong.
Contact me ingame for Necro, Ranger, Mesmer, and Thief advice.
Absolutely not. Fear being the Necro’s unique damaging condition (other professions have fear, no one else’s deals damage) is what makes condi Necros somewhat viable and scary. That should not be changed.
If Terrormancers are too good, just revert the change to Spectral Wall and they should be fine again.
It’s not Spectral Wall.
Spectrall Wall is fine and it should remain as it should. Pre-patch, Spectral Wall was pretty much worthless, now it is a strong utility without being too good.
It isn’t even chain fearing through Spectral Wall that makes it that strong, it’s just the damage you take while feared.
Terror will be still a Necromancer exclusive and Necromancer can still build condition with Terror (will be 0/30/10/0/30 for Condi+Terror), but it won’t deal the same insane damage with condition builds (compensated with the highest access to Torment via trait and the increased fear duration) and, most important, can’t be combined with burning.
It will just make conditionmancers more balanced and varied.
I don’t want to be left in a faraway distance from the terror build I used pre patch cause of some burning and other random offensive buffs we got. I agree to ditching spectral wall and reworking it back to what it was pre patch. Pre patch fully traited spectral wall was awesome, too bad the combo field was bugged.
Terror should be where it already is since it’s a condition and conditions are meant to be at curses. (Except for Vulnerability that is meant for the power traitline)
Vaffelmannen / Vaffelman / Krigs Vaffel
We Be Chilling Core
GH
We Be Chilling Core
GH
Terror + Torment + Burn = OP
It’s really not. To get that, you have to spec heavily into offensive lines, so you’re going to be squishy. Condi clears are very prevalent and Fear can be removed by either condi clears or Stunbreakers, plus Stability makes you incidentally immune to both Fear and the damage from Terror. Furthermore, Dhuumfire only affects one target every 10 seconds. It’s functionally identical to the Engi’s Incendiary Powder now, except the Engi gets it for only 10 points instead of 30 and also has easy access to Confusion (as well as many more sources of burning, most even AoE).
And Torment is nice but hardly gamechanging. We can only apply it with DS5, which only applies three stacks, and the damage is only 150% of a Bleed, so we basically get 4.5 bleeds that aren’t subject to the Bleed cap (which we’ll basically never hit by ourselves anyway).
It’s a good combo and it has some good burst to it, but it isn’t out of line with the amount of burst you can expect in this game. My quick armchair calculation has that combo at around 2500 DPS (while all three conditions are up) with 1500 condition damage, which is nice and all but it’s still going to take 9-10 seconds to kill someone with that if they don’t cleanse any of it (they will).
It’s not Spectral Wall.
Spectrall Wall is fine and it should remain as it should. Pre-patch, Spectral Wall was pretty much worthless, now it is a strong utility without being too good.
Pre-patch Spectral Wall was really strong for power builds. It instantly amplified all damage against the targets by 10% while granting a lot of Protection to anyone who walked through it. Drop a good Spectral Wall and you’d given yourself a strong damage/defense advantage for the duration of a fight. The other Vulnerability options (Focus#4, Well of Suffering) take longer to stack up and aren’t as reliable.
As for the matter of Synergy, you have to take 30 points in the Power/Condition duration line to get Dhuumfire, but nobody who’s running a condi build in a PvP setting cares about either of those attributes precisely because condi cleanses are everywhere. This is precisely the type of poor symmetry that people on this boards usually whine about.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
(edited by Blaine Tog.8304)
Absolutely not. Fear being the Necro’s unique damaging condition (other professions have fear, no one else’s deals damage) is what makes condi Necros somewhat viable and scary. That should not be changed.
If Terrormancers are too good, just revert the change to Spectral Wall and they should be fine again.
It’s not Spectral Wall.
Spectrall Wall is fine and it should remain as it should. Pre-patch, Spectral Wall was pretty much worthless, now it is a strong utility without being too good.It isn’t even chain fearing through Spectral Wall that makes it that strong, it’s just the damage you take while feared.
Terror will be still a Necromancer exclusive and Necromancer can still build condition with Terror (will be 0/30/10/0/30 for Condi+Terror), but it won’t deal the same insane damage with condition builds (compensated with the highest access to Torment via trait and the increased fear duration) and, most important, can’t be combined with burning.
It will just make conditionmancers more balanced and varied.
The damage seriously isn’t that high, and should be balanced around a typical scenario where you’ll get 2-4k out of it in short bursts, and not the extreme situations where some guy gets into a horrible position and gets chain feared for excessive amounts of time without removing it. It’s good damage when used short bursts that turns into massive amounts of damage if you severely outplay the other guy and he does nothing to counter you (which is has several counters). I don’t see the problem with being rewarded for outplaying someone.
dragonbrand—
I do not understand for the life of me why people are going on about this. At this point it’s just a straight troll by people who know better.
1) If terror + burn + torment is OP, then there needs to be a statement about why, and that statement needs to include some hard numbers. The numbers that have been posted are all pretty consistent; about 2.5k – 3.5k damage per second on a 3 second fear chain. As far as I can tell, that is not any more OP than any other burst build. Furthermore, burn is a minor contributor to that damage.
2) If terror + burn + torment is OP because of two necros coordinating epidemics (as Rennoko suggested), then it’s probably a torment stacking issue that could be dealt with by reducing torment durations on DS 5 substantially. Things like torment on spectral wall will only make matters worse. But, you know, I’m not totally sure why it is the same thing couldn’t be done pre-patch with bleeds.
3) Speaking of spectral wall, spectral wall fears are fine.
4) If you really want a “fix” for PvP then the right thing to do is up Melandru to -40% duration (-20% for 2 and 4 piece, then the additional -20% on the six piece), and then reduce food to -25% duration so as not to break WvW.
- Dr Ebola
I do not understand for the life of me why people are going on about this. At this point it’s just a straight troll by people who know better.
1) If terror + burn + torment is OP, then there needs to be a statement about why, and that statement needs to include some hard numbers. The numbers that have been posted are all pretty consistent; about 2.5k – 3.5k damage per second on a 3 second fear chain. As far as I can tell, that is not any more OP than any other burst build. Furthermore, burn is a minor contributor to that damage.
2) If terror + burn + torment is OP because of two necros coordinating epidemics (as Rennoko suggested), then it’s probably a torment stacking issue that could be dealt with by reducing torment durations on DS 5 substantially. Things like torment on spectral wall will only make matters worse. But, you know, I’m not totally sure why it is the same thing couldn’t be done pre-patch with bleeds.
3) Speaking of spectral wall, spectral wall fears are fine.
4) If you really want a “fix” for PvP then the right thing to do is up Melandru to -40% duration (-20% for 2 and 4 piece, then the additional -20% on the six piece), and then reduce food to -25% duration so as not to break WvW.
Read the OP, perhaps?
It is pretty hard to argue against terrormancers now.
They are definitely too strong.
Not really. Stun breakers.
If you compare the terror damage with how much damage any other class can do off a stun you realize that it’s pretty level.
In addition, to get the max fear AND burn Necros need to invest 30 points in a class that otherwise offers very little, and end up quite squishy.
Not really. Stun breakers.
If you compare the terror damage with how much damage any other class can do off a stun you realize that it’s pretty level.
In addition, to get the max fear AND burn Necros need to invest 30 points in a class that otherwise offers very little, and end up quite squishy.
I think it makes no sense to argue whether terrormancers are OP or not in this topic.
Most of the community and an huge portion of high-level PvPers think it is.
I don’t know if it is OP or not, but, still, we all should expect a nerf coming in the next patch.
I made this topic to suggest what, imho, is the best solution to some of the crucial problem of Necromancers at the moment without making it weak as kitten as it was before the patch.
I see no problems with the terrormancer as is. They are still squishy and can be focused down easy enough.
Engineer:Warrior:Necromancer – Rank 39
Now I’m not sure if I agree with the proposed changes here but I do think that we need to take measures to make the other specs just as viable as condition specs currently are. Minion masters are still laughably bad and while powermancers perform far better there isn’t much of an incentive to go down that road due to how superior condition specs are at… well, everything.
Something has got to give. The class is just too homogeneous for its own good right now. Unfortunately I fear ArenaNet will just settle for a blanket nerf and possibly harm other specs in the process. Whatever they do I hope they think long and hard about it.
I see them taking an HGH approach to terror. Slight nerfs here and there but nothing substantial. As for removing burning, that is hilarious. It is a grandmaster trait that we invest heavily in, it will remain. I can see them moving terror to the grandmaster line though of either Soul Reaping or remaining in the current line it is in. That seems to be a logical choice as moving it up to grandmaster will make players choose between burning and terror.
Engineer:Warrior:Necromancer – Rank 39
I think it makes no sense to argue whether terrormancers are OP or not in this topic.
Of course it does. Your entire “fix” is based on whether Necros are broken or not. If they aren’t your entire point falls flat. Which it did.
That said, the top players quite don’t quite agreed, as evidenced by the fact that most professional teams run one necromancer, if anything.
And who cares about “average players”? The average player is godkitten horrendous. They know about as much about the game as I know about aeronautic engineering. Their opinion is about as valid as my dog’s. Read the forums, according to them, every class is OP and every class sucks.
Considering a Thief can still pop up out of nowhere and inflict a virtually unavoidable burst in the excess of 12k+ in half the time Horror lasts. I dont see a problem with Necro’s have a burst build aswell.
I’d rather see glasscannon builds across the board get toned down. But thats just not happening (its been over 10months since release…) so why should only Mesmer and Thief get glasscannon burst builds that work?
Considering a Thief can still pop up out of nowhere and inflict a virtually unavoidable burst in the excess of 12k+ in half the time Horror lasts. I dont see a problem with Necro’s have a burst build aswell.
I’d rather see glasscannon builds across the board get toned down. But thats just not happening (its been over 10months since release…) so why should only Mesmer and Thief get glasscannon burst builds that work?
In fact, in my change list I aimed to give burst builds more viability, taking from conditionmancer build one of their features.
Of course it does. Your entire “fix” is based on whether Necros are broken or not. If they aren’t your entire point falls flat. Which it did.
That said, the top players quite don’t quite agreed, as evidenced by the fact that most professional teams run one necromancer, if anything.
And who cares about “average players”? The average player is godkitten horrendous. They know about as much about the game as I know about aeronautic engineering. Their opinion is about as valid as my dog’s. Read the forums, according to them, every class is OP and every class sucks.
It doesn’t.
There are several topics about the issue, this isn’t a topic about that.
This topic is based on the assuption, whatever it is right or wrong, that conditionmancers needs a change.
Top players are posting all over the sPvP forum saying how broken OP the Necro is and how a Necro player can wipe an entire team just bashing his head on the keyboard, while most of the average forum frequenters agree with that.
It doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong. Fact is that in the next SotG, whoever top players will be invited, someone will surely say to JSharp that Necro needs to be toned down. They will check the forums and then they will see that an huge portion of players agrees that Necros are OP.
The possibility that a nerf is coming is huge, you should face that.
So, since the chances are high, I proposed a change which will tone down the power of conditionmancers while making powermancers more viable and increasing build diversity.
That’s why it doesn’t make sense to argue about whether Necros are OP or not.
Raise necro axe to 900 range. Buff auto by 20-30%. Make dagger cleave.
Make dagger 2 an aoe health siphon. Change the garbage adept spite line and minors on the trees to provide better effects. Lower cast time of Focus 5. Lower cast time and CD on dagger 3.
Lower CD on heals and life transfer (DS4). Bam, power necro survival increased.
Also, for the love of god, buff Lich projectile speed and Dark Path projectile speed, and Make Spectral Grasp home on a target. People constantly sidestep these projectiles.
I chatted about this with some fellow Necros one time.
One of them had a pretty interesting idea.
Swap Terror and Master of Terror’s positions with one another.
It forces Terror builds to spend 20 builds in Soul Reaping, which makes Dhuumfire less practical, but not impossible to get.
Benight[Edge]
Just bring stability and terrormancer is not an issue. Yeah, this sucks mostly for necros, but that’s the fault of the class not being given stability. Maybe Death Shroud should clear a condition baseline when you enter it.
Above is a nerf to the OP Terrormancer you see lately, and a buff to lesser used builds, also a buff to make Vampires viable. Numerous fixes to crappy traits too.
Terror + Torment + Burn = OP
One of those things has got to go. It’s not the fact that they are there, it’s the fact that they have so much synergy. Necro without Terror would simply be an Engineer, the fact that it’s a Hard CC condition that ticks for so much, allowing other conditions to tick for so much, makes it way too strong.
You want to nerf 30/20/10 into the ground, but in your own “Super Mighty I’m Uber All Builds” Thread, you call this build:
“Yes, they might do more damage, but are generally worthless from a practical standpoint, since you’ll get focused in mere seconds.”
Then why are you crying for endless nerfs, when you are claiming that your “builds©®” are so much better?
If it’s an sPVP problem then nerf it in sPVP, if that’s where these elite players complaining of OPness exist. The rest of us mere mortals who have struggled with underpowered and poorly synergised builds for months finally have some toys to play with, don’t take them away again please.
Frenzy/Bull’s Charge/100 Blades does a ton more damage. Backstab/Cloak and Dagger/Heartseeker does a ton more damage. Mind Wrack/Blurred Frenzy does a ton more damage. Are you going to nerf those too?
[TaG] – GH
If it’s an sPVP problem then nerf it in sPVP, if that’s where these elite players complaining of OPness exist. The rest of us mere mortals who have struggled with underpowered and poorly synergised builds for months finally have some toys to play with, don’t take them away again please.
Frenzy/Bull’s Charge/100 Blades does a ton more damage. Backstab/Cloak and Dagger/Heartseeker does a ton more damage. Mind Wrack/Blurred Frenzy does a ton more damage. Are you going to nerf those too?
Why people keep arguing about if condimancers are OP or not?
Don’t do in this topic.
It’s 99% sure that the nerf is coming, it doesn’t matter if it is needed or not. I made this topic just to suggest a way to fix the problem without putting necromancers again in the lowest grade of the food chain.
Why people keep arguing about if condimancers are OP or not?
Don’t do in this topic.
It’s 99% sure that the nerf is coming, it doesn’t matter if it is needed or not. I made this topic just to suggest a way to fix the problem without putting necromancers again in the lowest grade of the food chain.
Because I disagree whether the Necro is OP or not. In small scale PVP then yes I can see how it is OP in the hands of a skilled player. However in WvW it certainly is not. I run in an organised guild and our raid leader asks for (and I quote) “8 guards, 6 warriors, 2 spots for other melee like ranger/gs or d/d ele, 3 staff ele’s, 2 mesmers, 4 necro’s/rangers/engi’s/extra ele”. If we were OP then surely he wouldn’t be putting us in the afterthought category? I certainly don’t feel OP when playing, I do better when on my Staff ele and I don’t hear anyone calling them OP or asking for nerfs?
In PvE we now have access to a damaging condition that stacks duration so we don’t have to worry about the bleed cap quite so much. Why is this so bad?
So then it’s an sPVP problem, so solve it in sPVP by doing to Terror what they did to Confusion and halving its damage. No need to mess it up for everyone else who finally feel as though they are finally in a good place.
[TaG] – GH
Because I disagree whether the Necro is OP or not. In small scale PVP then yes I can see how it is OP in the hands of a skilled player. However in WvW it certainly is not. I run in an organised guild and our raid leader asks for (and I quote) “8 guards, 6 warriors, 2 spots for other melee like ranger/gs or d/d ele, 3 staff ele’s, 2 mesmers, 4 necro’s/rangers/engi’s/extra ele”. If we were OP then surely he wouldn’t be putting us in the afterthought category? I certainly don’t feel OP when playing, I do better when on my Staff ele and I don’t hear anyone calling them OP or asking for nerfs?
In PvE we now have access to a damaging condition that stacks duration so we don’t have to worry about the bleed cap quite so much. Why is this so bad?
So then it’s an sPVP problem, so solve it in sPVP by doing to Terror what they did to Confusion and halving its damage. No need to mess it up for everyone else who finally feel as though they are finally in a good place.
I DON’T CARE!
This topic isn’t intended to discuss about if the Necro is OP or not, but still each post you make you keep bringing the discussion in.
Is it that hard to understand?
I don’t even think the Necro is OP, but people and top grade players do. So get used to it and face the eventuality of a nerf.
I DON’T CARE!
This topic isn’t intended to discuss about if the Necro is OP or not, but still each post you make you keep bringing the discussion in.
Is it that hard to understand?I don’t even think the Necro is OP, but people and top grade players do. So get used to it and face the eventuality of a nerf.
I proposed quite a simple fix and the rest of it was arguing why it only needs to be for sPVP. Sorry should have written it better, it just annoys me that Anet always seems to balance for the elite pro players so the post turned into something of a rant.
[TaG] – GH
It doesn’t.
There are several topics about the issue, this isn’t a topic about that.
This topic is based on the assuption, whatever it is right or wrong, that conditionmancers needs a change.
They don’t. Your topic falls flat. Tada.
Top players are posting all over the sPvP forum saying how broken OP the Necro is and how a Necro player can wipe an entire team just bashing his head on the keyboard, while most of the average forum frequenters agree with that.
While I don’t agree with every balance decision made by the devs, most of them have some logic and sense behind them. They have proved that, while sometimes they have no idea what to do to a class (Rangercoughcoughcough) they’re not incompetent to the point of balancing based on popular opinion.
It doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong. Fact is that in the next SotG, whoever top players will be invited, someone will surely say to JSharp that Necro needs to be toned down. They will check the forums and then they will see that an huge portion of players agrees that Necros are OP.
The possibility that a nerf is coming is huge, you should face that.
Or not. Quite a lot of things have been mentioned in SotG, some over and over, that have never been done.
And especially if it isn’t right the answer is most definitely not to compound the problem by assuming it is.
You also start your own topic by saying “they ARE, no chance for discussion, OP!” (paraphrasing). Which is incorrect.
So, since the chances are high, I proposed a change which will tone down the power of conditionmancers while making powermancers more viable and increasing build diversity.
No you don’t. All you do is see condition necros having fun with fear, and thought this was the right time to try to get some for your own favorite build. Tell me how would your fix help anything? It would just move what you perceive as OP to your own build. If Terror is OP, as you say, then moving it, virtual unchanged, to power builds just greatly increases the problem, as power builds have significantly greater burst.
I DON’T CARE!
This topic isn’t intended to discuss about if the Necro is OP or not, but still each post you make you keep bringing the discussion in.
Is it that hard to understand?
Let me answer you in your own tone:
WE DON’T CARE!
This topic is nothing but “ME TOO!!” bullkitten poorly masked as a balance suggestion based on flawed principals.
Nice try. You don’t get power-fear for insta-gib burst builds. Move on.
Terror shouldn’t scale with Power instead of Condition Damage. Powermancers lack sustain damage more than spike atm, which comes from Life Blasts, Wells etc. after patch. 2k more damage on spike wouldn’t make big difference since they can hit much harder with Life Blasts now. Conditionmancers, on the other hand, after Dhuumfire will be balanced/deleted/moves/whatsoever will be in same position as before patch. We need that Terror damage for professions and situations when you only have small acessible window to do serious damage and put counterpressure before foe stealths/cures conditions/runs away/gets boons etc. For example, let’s take a look on Conditionmancer with no Burning or small access to that condition (it gets cleansed by “Hide in Shadows” anyway) vs. S/D normal meta thief. They cure conditions very fast, via #2, heal and so on, they have great mobility so you won’t kite them easily, they shift places so it’s hard to land AoEs and they stealth often. With normal bleeding, chilling etc. they’ll constantly cure them as you don’t apply 2-3 different conditions per second or two so you’re off with your main source of damage. The way is to CC-lock them and quickly burst down before they’ll be ready to reset. As Condi mainly, We simply need it, Powermancers need more defense and LF generation. Simple as that, we don’t need uber-mega changes. Look at my topic about slight improvements, we should be balanced step by step or we’ll get Nerf Hammer, even harder than you offer here
[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144
They don’t. Your topic falls flat. Tada.
This is your opinion.
You don’t agree with the assumption? Then join the topics where everyone is arguing whether condimancers are OP or not. This isn’t your topic.
While I don’t agree with every balance decision made by the devs, most of them have some logic and sense behind them. They have proved that, while sometimes they have no idea what to do to a class (Rangercoughcoughcough) they’re not incompetent to the point of balancing based on popular opinion.
When most of the high-level PvPers and community agrees that conditionmancers are OP, then it is a feedback they can’t ignore. There is an high chance that a change is coming.
Or not. Quite a lot of things have been mentioned in SotG, some over and over, that have never been done.
And especially if it isn’t right the answer is most definitely not to compound the problem by assuming it is.
You also start your own topic by saying “they ARE, no chance for discussion, OP!” (paraphrasing). Which is incorrect.
But also a lot of things have been mentioned in SotG and they were done, like Necromancer and Warrior buffs. So what?
The fact that it isn’t right it’s your opinion (how many times do I have to say that?). Your opinion isn’t an overall truth. Face the possibility that you’re wrong, maybe?
As I said multiple times, I’m not sure if they’re OP or not, but in case they are, these are the changes I would do if I was balancing this game.
Did you at least read what everyone is complaining about?
They are complaining about the synergy between Terror and all the conditions, not terror itself. In fact, before the patch, none complained once about Terror while the complaints started after the patch, despite the fact Terror was left unchanged (even nerfed, we can say).
Why the hell do you think that I want terror for my “favourite” build? That assumption is stupid and ignorant.
Let me answer you in your own tone:
WE DON’T CARE!
This topic is nothing but “ME TOO!!” bullkitten poorly masked as a balance suggestion based on flawed principals.
Nice try. You don’t get power-fear for insta-gib burst builds. Move on.
Why are you that scared if someone even propose an hypothetical change to conditionmancer build?
If you understand nothing about what I proposed and you don’t even want to do constructive criticism, just gtfo.
It is pretty hard to argue against terrormancers now.
They are definitely too strong.
I think it is more a matter of too easy to play than too strong, but I have settled into the idea that they need a tweak in order to improve the quality of matches.
They were strong even before the patch, in fact it was the only build viable for Necros and probably the only one which didn’t need a buff.
It was borderline viable as it still required a comp that was geared to babysit for it. It needed a self-sustain buff to be truly viable. A-net wanted to go a different way with it than what most people thought it needed, and there is nothing wrong with that. Frankly this condi-burst shakes up the Meta in a way that was desperately needed. The same stale comps and strats that were working forever are now falling on their face, so there is a scramble to figure out what to do.
Powermancers, on the other hand, are still lackluster and tied to high casting time damaging skills and low defensive capabilities, making them underwhelming compared to other burst build of other profession.
Powermancers can kill the bejeezus out of stuff now. It takes much more skill to play than the Terrormancers that are running rampant right now, but it is ceratinly viable and far from lackluster. It is just a higher skill floor build than the GC Terror builds.
My solution to both the problems is this: make Terror a powermancer trait.
I don’t think this works to do what you want to do. Giving a power based burster the ability to CC for upwards of 7s while hitting for 1200 white damage per Fear would actually be stronger than the current implementation. Do you know how much damage a Zerker (or even Valkyrie) Necro can do to a CC’d target in 7s? They could easily burst through a Guardian Elite full heal and still have time to call in a teammate to stomp (since they can’t stomp worth a kitten ).
I think there are a few ways you could tweak Terrormancers to be less irritating without totally reconfiguring the core concept.
You could:
1) Make Fear a legitimate condition rather than a Condi-Stun (don’t lock skills, make it like Immobilize). If it didn’t require a stun break to cleanse Fear it wouldn’t be so annoying, because you could self-cleanse without burning stun breaks. Note: This is a balanced change because stunbreaks will no longer remove Fear.
or
2) Make Spectral Wall not apply Fear to targets that are already suffering Fear. The burst requires chaining Fears, and if you can’t Fear opponents into Spectral Wall, then they can counter it by… not walking into it. This would make for an easy counter. Other ground target AoE’s have a similar implementation already where they don’t stack previously applied buffs to a target. This would be a direct nerf to the burst sequence that the easy moders are using right now. It wouldn’t gut the effectiveness of the build entirely, but it would dramatically increase skill required.
or
3) Increase the recharge on DS3 to 25s or 30s if it is going to keep the 1.5s duration at close range (which I think is a good thing). Putting in more CD between bursts would mitigate the QQ.
or
4) Make Fear only function as a stun and therefore not subject to +condition duration. Those fractions of a second added on to every Fear make a huge difference whether most people understand why or not. A well executed Terror burst can tick over 8000 damage just in Fear right now if you catch a target with their stunbreakers on CD. If you remove the ability to extend durations then you are looking at a shorter period of hard CC that ticks for more like 4000. Note: this is a balanced change, because cleanses will not remove Fear anymore.
Terror shouldn’t scale with Power instead of Condition Damage. Powermancers lack sustain damage more than spike atm, which comes from Life Blasts, Wells etc. after patch. 2k more damage on spike wouldn’t make big difference since they can hit much harder with Life Blasts now. Conditionmancers, on the other hand, after Dhuumfire will be balanced/deleted/moves/whatsoever will be in same position as before patch. We need that Terror damage for professions and situations when you only have small acessible window to do serious damage and put counterpressure before foe stealths/cures conditions/runs away/gets boons etc. For example, let’s take a look on Conditionmancer with no Burning or small access to that condition (it gets cleansed by “Hide in Shadows” anyway) vs. S/D normal meta thief. They cure conditions very fast, via #2, heal and so on, they have great mobility so you won’t kite them easily, they shift places so it’s hard to land AoEs and they stealth often. With normal bleeding, chilling etc. they’ll constantly cure them as you don’t apply 2-3 different conditions per second or two so you’re off with your main source of damage. The way is to CC-lock them and quickly burst down before they’ll be ready to reset. As Condi mainly, We simply need it, Powermancers need more defense and LF generation. Simple as that, we don’t need uber-mega changes. Look at my topic about slight improvements, we should be balanced step by step or we’ll get Nerf Hammer, even harder than you offer here
Well, Terror damage can be hardly be considered burst.
It is 2k damage over 2 seconds, which isn’t that much of a burst.
Right now, the changes I proposed were made to make conditionmancers choose between burning + condition duration + raw damage (30/30/10/0/0) or terror + better life force generation/stability (0/30/10/0/30).
The merging with Terror and Master of Terror will make the new trait worthy even if you don’t do the maximum damage. Also, the new torment trait I proposed will overcome the loss of damage due to the cut of either burn or terror.
So, at the end of the day, conditionmancers will have their overall pressure slightly reduced, gaining better build diversity and defensive capability while powermancers gain better sustained damage, better defensive CCs and a solid alternative to Deathly Perception.
The issue with this thread is it gives the illusion of veracity to the people that are refusing to use the tools at their disposal and are just whining for nerfs instead of actually bringing anti condition/cc tools to defend against a spec with strong conditions and CC; or even at least learning the limitations of such a spec and preemptively shutting it down.
You don’t address that sort of mentality by coddling it. You only accomplish encouraging that behavior to continue in the future.
That is why this thread comes across as both nonconstructive and insulting.
Powermancers can kill the bejeezus out of stuff now. It takes much more skill to play than the Terrormancers that are running rampant right now, but it is ceratinly viable and far from lackluster. It is just a higher skill floor build than the GC Terror builds.
Powermancers are extremely slow.
Most of their high damage skills are either channeled (Ghastly Claws) or with slow casting time (Life Blast), that’s their main problems.
You hardly manage to make an entire Ghastly Claws channel to land and you hardly manage to cast more than two life blasts once you go into death shroud and those life blasts are either evaded or blocked with ease.
Giving Powermancers another reliable way to deal damage is needed imho.
I don’t think this works to do what you want to do. Giving a power based burster the ability to CC for upwards of 7s while hitting for 1200 white damage per Fear would actually be stronger than the current implementation. Do you know how much damage a Zerker (or even Valkyrie) Necro can do to a CC’d target in 7s? They could easily burst through a Guardian Elite full heal and still have time to call in a teammate to stomp (since they can’t stomp worth a kitten ).
I think there are a few ways you could tweak Terrormancers to be less irritating without totally reconfiguring the core concept.
That isn’t true, mainly because powermancers doesn’t have the same access to conditions as conditionmancers do. That means that you won’t be feared for 7+ seconds because fear is a condition, which can be easily cleansed by any istant-cast condition removal (like swapping in water, for instance). This doesn’t apply to conditionmancers, since the Fear is easily covered with any of the condition conditionmancers have.
Also, while you’re chain feared from a conditionmancer, you take all the damage from the conditions you have on, while when you’re feared from a powermancer, you can still block any of the high damaging skills necromancer will use. You’ll just need a single aegis to block a Life Blast.
Another interesting change is to make Terror work pretty much like Mug before the nerf. You deal damage once per application which can crit and is mitigated by toughness. It makes much more sense if it scales with power.
It is much more interesting if the base damage is increased and the coefficient is lowered (making it scaling less with power but dealing higher base damage).
In conclusion, chain-fear is much much easier to counter on powermancers than on conditionmancers.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Power Necro can:
Set up Ghastly Claws with up to 3s duration DS#3 Fear
Immobilize a target with Dagger #3, and drop unblockable wells on their face, then drop DS#5.
Depending on the build set up a powermancer actually can cover their Fears and immobilizes extremely effectively. For instance, Barbed Precision (on a Dagger MH build) makes single condi cleanses almost completely useless by itself.
Hop on a Guardian and try to block a powermancers wells. Have fun on your back.
A good powermancer can already use Fear extremely effectively for its value as CC. If you give them damage with it, then you will just shift the QQ from Terror to Powermancer.
Power Necro can:
Set up Ghastly Claws with up to 3s duration DS#3 Fear
Immobilize a target with Dagger #3, and drop unblockable wells on their face, then drop DS#5.
Depending on the build set up a powermancer actually can cover their Fears and immobilizes extremely effectively. For instance, Barbed Precision (on a Dagger MH build) makes single condi cleanses almost completely useless by itself.
Hop on a Guardian and try to block a powermancers wells. Have fun on your back.
A good powermancer can already use Fear extremely effectively for its value as CC. If you give them damage with it, then you will just shift the QQ from Terror to Powermancer.
I didn’t see any well bomber in both WvWvW and sPvP from a while. That’s probably because well bombing is extremely predictible and easy to counter and necromancers investing everything in well bombing are extremely squishy. It’s pretty much the same concept of Hundred Blades, except that animations are extremely more visible and Necromancers are way more squishy.
I keep failing to understand how dealing ~3k damage critical (not ticking each second and defended by toughness) when applying fear on an enemy in full glass cannon can be imbalanced in some way.
It won’t shift the QQ from conditionmancers to powermancers simply because powemancers are way more squishy than conditionmancers and because their damage can be mitigater more easily compared to conditions.
Shatter Mersmers deal higher and more reliable damage while having greating survivability compared to powermancers but none complains about them.
(edited by sorrow.2364)