Guild Wars 2

Considering numbers alone, many of course would discount the necromancer. It’ll depend as it always has, the player behind the character.

I’d rather bring a team of hindered classes with competent players than the best with the worst.

Truefrost.6815:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Not that this means anything, but I’m amused you singled Eles and Thieves out in particular as classes that you’re sure groups will be taking, as this thread is active over on the PvE boards:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Thief-Ele-have-no-place-in-raids/first

In general though, I don’t subscribe to putting each individual mechanic under a microscope and throwing a class away because another class might handle that situation better. It’s like saying a Swiss army knife is useless because you could buy a better individual version of each component.

My point was that necro is on bottom end of dps, thief and ele are a considerably better choice. So even If they can’t get the best in slot classes, they’ll get the closest thing to it.

Ele, at least, actually falls pretty significantly behind in DPS against moving targets. If the Vale Guardian is any indication, Raid boss fights will keep moving around, meaning ele’s high damage isn’t going to actually land.

Truefrost, your posts are full of baseless assumptions. Pretty much everything you’ve said can be countered with a “but, what if…?” question.

“For an optimized group you want a PS warr”: But, what if you can get a group setup where the group has full uptime on 25 Might stacks at all time and where the Warrior’s DPS + banner buffs DPS is less than another profession?

“a tank guard”: But, what if the encounters ignore blocking to prevent cheesing? But what if you need someone to do DPS while tanking? But, what if you need someone to do healing while tanking? But, what if you need someone to actually bring good or different buffs/debuffs while tanking?

“although any class can do this role”: But, what if a boss fight requires something specific out of the tank that not every class can do, like mobility for a Necro?

“really you most likely want a tough class”: But, what if you can evade tank on a berserker?

“that can also buff really well”: But, what if the optimal group comp makes the buffs the guard tank brings redundant?

“thus bunker guard makes logical sense”: But, what if you bring a Mesmer to AoE Distortion/Blur the damage and buff with Signet of Inspiration while bringing both Alacrity and Quickness?

“The imbalance in numbers is large enough that there isn’t a reason to NOT run the highest dps classes.”: But, what if you need utility (tank/heal/CC/etc) more than you need damage?

“So of course people will stack condi engi’s.” But, what if the assumption that stacking 4 Condi Engineers is the best way to deal condition damage actually false? But what if, in a future fight, you need AoE or burst condi damage?

“Necro can’t take any of those roles besides tank”: But, what if there are roles in future fights that aren’t simply “tank/heal/DPS”? But, what if a Necro ends up filling whatever strange requirement a fight might have in the future so well that every group will try to bring a Necro for said fight?

“but they aren’t the optimized choice for even tanking”: But, what if other tanking mechanics work differently?

“We can’t group stack might so we can’t replace the PS warr”: But, what if other professions can replace the PS Warrior?

“we can’t heal so replacing druid won’t happen”: But, what if a Druid is actually suboptimal to playing better and bringing another DPS? But, what if Druid is actually suboptimal compared to a healer that can actually buff the group?

“in the end we have one role”: Already answered that one.

“According to the raid that downed him they had nearly a minute left on the timer, which means If it doesn’t get nerfed we’ll need optimized group dps to make it”: But, what if their group was horribly optimized and an actually well optimized group can kill Vale Guardian way, way faster?

“Necros have never been very good at condition damage”: Actually, Necros have always been the only acceptable PvE condition build because all the other condition builds suck at AoEing stuff down. At least until a few months ago when they released that huge patch with the condi changes.

“As for bosses that will be immune to conditions”: But, what if there are no encounters where conditions don’t work at all?

“A casual non-optimized group would reach the timer”: But, what if the timer is set to be lenient enough that non fully optimized groups can kill it? Ya know, like what happened last weekend.

“My point was that necro is on bottom end of dps, thief and ele are a considerably better choice” But, what if there are fights where the strength of the Necro is so significant of an advantage that Eles and Thieves are sat out?

Let’s be honest here, nobody knows what future raids will bring, least of all anet. They probably haven’t started designing the next 5-6 raids that we’ll see. So if anet doesn’t know what the future holds, why are YOU making assumptions about it? All we can and should do right now is establish what classes can and can’t do, establish good DPS spreadsheets (all the current ones suck and don’t take into account group buffs nearly well enough and don’t run simulations) and share our findings on the forums so the devs can read, agree or disagree and balance accordingly.

Zaroua.2714:

Truefrost, your posts are full of baseless assumptions. Pretty much everything you’ve said can be countered with a “but, what if…?” question.

“For an optimized group you want a PS warr”: But, what if you can get a group setup where the group has full uptime on 25 Might stacks at all time and where the Warrior’s DPS + banner buffs DPS is less than another profession?

“a tank guard”: But, what if the encounters ignore blocking to prevent cheesing? But what if you need someone to do DPS while tanking? But, what if you need someone to do healing while tanking? But, what if you need someone to actually bring good or different buffs/debuffs while tanking?

“although any class can do this role”: But, what if a boss fight requires something specific out of the tank that not every class can do, like mobility for a Necro?

“really you most likely want a tough class”: But, what if you can evade tank on a berserker?

“that can also buff really well”: But, what if the optimal group comp makes the buffs the guard tank brings redundant?

“thus bunker guard makes logical sense”: But, what if you bring a Mesmer to AoE Distortion/Blur the damage and buff with Signet of Inspiration while bringing both Alacrity and Quickness?

“The imbalance in numbers is large enough that there isn’t a reason to NOT run the highest dps classes.”: But, what if you need utility (tank/heal/CC/etc) more than you need damage?

“So of course people will stack condi engi’s.” But, what if the assumption that stacking 4 Condi Engineers is the best way to deal condition damage actually false? But what if, in a future fight, you need AoE or burst condi damage?

“Necro can’t take any of those roles besides tank”: But, what if there are roles in future fights that aren’t simply “tank/heal/DPS”? But, what if a Necro ends up filling whatever strange requirement a fight might have in the future so well that every group will try to bring a Necro for said fight?

“but they aren’t the optimized choice for even tanking”: But, what if other tanking mechanics work differently?

“We can’t group stack might so we can’t replace the PS warr”: But, what if other professions can replace the PS Warrior?

“we can’t heal so replacing druid won’t happen”: But, what if a Druid is actually suboptimal to playing better and bringing another DPS? But, what if Druid is actually suboptimal compared to a healer that can actually buff the group?

“in the end we have one role”: Already answered that one.

“According to the raid that downed him they had nearly a minute left on the timer, which means If it doesn’t get nerfed we’ll need optimized group dps to make it”: But, what if their group was horribly optimized and an actually well optimized group can kill Vale Guardian way, way faster?

“Necros have never been very good at condition damage”: Actually, Necros have always been the only acceptable PvE condition build because all the other condition builds suck at AoEing stuff down. At least until a few months ago when they released that huge patch with the condi changes.

“As for bosses that will be immune to conditions”: But, what if there are no encounters where conditions don’t work at all?

“A casual non-optimized group would reach the timer”: But, what if the timer is set to be lenient enough that non fully optimized groups can kill it? Ya know, like what happened last weekend.

“My point was that necro is on bottom end of dps, thief and ele are a considerably better choice” But, what if there are fights where the strength of the Necro is so significant of an advantage that Eles and Thieves are sat out?

Let’s be honest here, nobody knows what future raids will bring, least of all anet. They probably haven’t started designing the next 5-6 raids that we’ll see. So if anet doesn’t know what the future holds, why are YOU making assumptions about it? All we can and should do right now is establish what classes can and can’t do, establish good DPS spreadsheets (all the current ones suck and don’t take into account group buffs nearly well enough and don’t run simulations) and share our findings on the forums so the devs can read, agree or disagree and balance accordingly.

You seem very confused. So I’ll try this one more time, easy to understand. Everything we offer other classes do better. Simple as that, we have no legit spot currently. I do agree however that we don’t know the future of raids, but with the style of gameplay Anet is using I’m not expecting much of a change unless they are willing to make one themselves.

I’ve already gone over these same questions like four times in this thread. The dead horse is dead, for god sakes stop beating it. :P

“Everything we offer other classes do better. "

But that’s wrong. Nobody has more health than we do because of death shroud. Nobody has anything like Epidemic for sustained AoE damage against large groups of enemies. Nobody has as much boon/condi tools as we do. Nobody has passive group wide condi removal. Nobody has as much weakness and chill as we do.

Not every revolves around maximum DPS. And if anet does their job right, it never will be. Here’s to hoping we never have to fight against a Patchwerk or one of its many clones.

@Truefrost: Zaroua isn’t confused. He just accepts that there are enough unknowns to make attempts at declaring hard facts about classes and the roles they fill in raids look silly.

Roles are defined by boss mechanics. If we don’t know the boss mechanics, we can only theorize on the roles based on whatever little information we know. We can draw conclusions, but if you submit yourself to following everyone else’s conclusions on DPS, roles, etc., you’ll never find yourself out on the cutting edge of the meta. You need an open mind to make discoveries that evolve the meta, and evolution should be the goal over preaching someone else’s sermon.

Necros might find that they fall short of having a firm role in raiding. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed. I’m just not going to rule it out until the data is in. Vale Guardian on a beta weekend is not an appropriate amount of data, regardless of how professional everyone thinks him/herself to be.

EDIT – @Zaroua: If you mention boons, someone is going to mention Mesmer’s sword auto again which strips boons at a rate of I think 1 every 2.5 seconds, and I’m going to vomit into my mouth again. Please spare my taste buds.

Also, I’ve been avoiding mentioning Patchwerk, but it’s been on my mind for days now. If they are going to create engaging encounters, they won’t be Patchwerk-style, and anything less than a very, very sophisticated simulation mechanism is going to fall potentially woefully short.

Zaroua.2714:

“Everything we offer other classes do better. "

But that’s wrong. Nobody has more health than we do because of death shroud. Nobody has anything like Epidemic for sustained AoE damage against large groups of enemies. Nobody has as much boon/condi tools as we do. Nobody has passive group wide condi removal. Nobody has as much weakness and chill as we do.

Not every revolves around maximum DPS. And if anet does their job right, it never will be. Here’s to hoping we never have to fight against a Patchwerk or one of its many clones.

First of all DS doesn’t scale, which is one of It’s key problens. We also have no utilities while in DS. So ‘Two Healthbars’ is being just is ignorant as Anet has been with that sad excuse. Boon/Condi tools? We have terrible boon uptime and we can’t share it worth a crap. Group wide condi removal? Wtf are you talking about? WoP? Which is stuck behind a large cooldown, other classes can achieve boon removal far beyond us. And finally, weakness and chill, our condi chill is bad cause of the limit and Weakness doesn’t work on bosses.

Currently, since Anet seems focused on roles. We cannot do them better then any other class. This has been the problem from the beginning, a problem Anet created themselves. It’s what happens when you take poor care of your classes.

As I’ve mentioned on other threads, I really do hope Anet changes things. I love the combat in this game I just want them to finalize on something already, I feel like most of the combat COMPLETELY conflicts with the necro (Which it does)

I do agree though, we don’t know how raids will turn out. The points I’m making is in the current state of the game. If they make more bosses like Vale Guardian we’re gonna have problems if the classes aren’t balanced.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Truefrost: Zaroua isn’t confused. He just accepts that there are enough unknowns to make attempts at declaring hard facts about classes and the roles they fill in raids look silly.

Roles are defined by boss mechanics. If we don’t know the boss mechanics, we can only theorize on the roles based on whatever little information we know. We can draw conclusions, but if you submit yourself to following everyone else’s conclusions on DPS, roles, etc., you’ll never find yourself out on the cutting edge of the meta. You need an open mind to make discoveries that evolve the meta, and evolution should be the goal over preaching someone else’s sermon.

Necros might find that they fall short of having a firm role in raiding. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed. I’m just not going to rule it out until the data is in. Vale Guardian on a beta weekend is not an appropriate amount of data, regardless of how professional everyone thinks him/herself to be.

EDIT – @Zaroua: If you mention boons, someone is going to mention Mesmer’s sword auto again which strips boons at a rate of I think 1 every 2.5 seconds, and I’m going to vomit into my mouth again. Please spare my taste buds.

Also, I’ve been avoiding mentioning Patchwerk, but it’s been on my mind for days now. If they are going to create engaging encounters, they won’t be Patchwerk-style, and anything less than a very, very sophisticated simulation mechanism is going to fall potentially woefully short.

The Mes boon removal is actually quite good. Necros have to give up stuff and fall back on large cooldowns. Making the single boon removal quite nice. This of course could change If bosses begin to require a boon removal that removes multiple boons.

Truefrost.6815:

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Truefrost: Zaroua isn’t confused. He just accepts that there are enough unknowns to make attempts at declaring hard facts about classes and the roles they fill in raids look silly.

Roles are defined by boss mechanics. If we don’t know the boss mechanics, we can only theorize on the roles based on whatever little information we know. We can draw conclusions, but if you submit yourself to following everyone else’s conclusions on DPS, roles, etc., you’ll never find yourself out on the cutting edge of the meta. You need an open mind to make discoveries that evolve the meta, and evolution should be the goal over preaching someone else’s sermon.

Necros might find that they fall short of having a firm role in raiding. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed. I’m just not going to rule it out until the data is in. Vale Guardian on a beta weekend is not an appropriate amount of data, regardless of how professional everyone thinks him/herself to be.

EDIT – @Zaroua: If you mention boons, someone is going to mention Mesmer’s sword auto again which strips boons at a rate of I think 1 every 2.5 seconds, and I’m going to vomit into my mouth again. Please spare my taste buds.

Also, I’ve been avoiding mentioning Patchwerk, but it’s been on my mind for days now. If they are going to create engaging encounters, they won’t be Patchwerk-style, and anything less than a very, very sophisticated simulation mechanism is going to fall potentially woefully short.

The Mes boon removal is actually quite good. Necros have to give up stuff and fall back on large cooldowns. Making the single boon removal quite nice. This of course could change If bosses begin to require a boon removal that removes multiple boons.

You’re completely wrong in this regard. Necromancer’s boon removal is often built into the build a necromancer will already be running. Well of suffering is already automatically run by a necromancer well build as it is. We give up nothing by bringing it. The same is true with Focus which will already be an auto include with dagger or dare I say axe? But to assume that the necromancer has to “Give up something” is completely false and utter nonsense.

Lily.1935:

Truefrost.6815:

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Truefrost: Zaroua isn’t confused. He just accepts that there are enough unknowns to make attempts at declaring hard facts about classes and the roles they fill in raids look silly.

Roles are defined by boss mechanics. If we don’t know the boss mechanics, we can only theorize on the roles based on whatever little information we know. We can draw conclusions, but if you submit yourself to following everyone else’s conclusions on DPS, roles, etc., you’ll never find yourself out on the cutting edge of the meta. You need an open mind to make discoveries that evolve the meta, and evolution should be the goal over preaching someone else’s sermon.

Necros might find that they fall short of having a firm role in raiding. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed. I’m just not going to rule it out until the data is in. Vale Guardian on a beta weekend is not an appropriate amount of data, regardless of how professional everyone thinks him/herself to be.

EDIT – @Zaroua: If you mention boons, someone is going to mention Mesmer’s sword auto again which strips boons at a rate of I think 1 every 2.5 seconds, and I’m going to vomit into my mouth again. Please spare my taste buds.

Also, I’ve been avoiding mentioning Patchwerk, but it’s been on my mind for days now. If they are going to create engaging encounters, they won’t be Patchwerk-style, and anything less than a very, very sophisticated simulation mechanism is going to fall potentially woefully short.

The Mes boon removal is actually quite good. Necros have to give up stuff and fall back on large cooldowns. Making the single boon removal quite nice. This of course could change If bosses begin to require a boon removal that removes multiple boons.

You’re completely wrong in this regard. Necromancer’s boon removal is often built into the build a necromancer will already be running. Well of suffering is already automatically run by a necromancer well build as it is. We give up nothing by bringing it. The same is true with Focus which will already be an auto include with dagger or dare I say axe? But to assume that the necromancer has to “Give up something” is completely false and utter nonsense.

First off It’s Well of Corruption that corrupts boons which also has a large cooldown on it, second focus is up in the air. It turns into Warhorn vs Focus, each gives something. We don’t need the vuln from focus anymore.

I’m not saying we’re bad at it, I’m saying It’s not enough of a reason to take us.

DS scales with toughness. The lack of utilities in DS is irrelevant since you can freely use them outside of it and make sure of DS while utilities are cooling down or pop up when they’re needed. We have boon control, removal, lots of it (other classes have them too, but we’re certainly not lacking in that department). We have group wide condition cleansing through Plague Signet and Well of Power. We have so many ways to get rid of conditions off of ourselves that I won’t bother listing all of them. The stack limit on chill doesn’t make it bad, that’s narrow minded and doesn’t reflect the kiting power provided by the condition. Bosses may be immune to weakness, but we don’t know if future fights will have adds that aren’t; if there are fights where there are adds that aren’t immune to weakness and deal high damage to the raid, then weakness becomes a strong tool to help deal with the situation.

Necromancers bring nothing “unique” to the table with the current content available to players because all of the current content is entirely trivial. The only times content wasn’t trivial was fractals at release when the game wasn’t completely figured out back when you had to do 50+ fractals with 45 AR and getting gold in that aetherblade event during the whole vote the dumb pirates thing that happened. As more content is released that actually pushes players instead of letting them float along cozily, we’ll see more and more of what each profession is truly capable of instead of having people spout senseless stuff on the forums about how X is useless and brings nothing to the table.

Warscythes.9307:

Actually, the best tank is not the tankiest character, but rather the character that can tank without dying while putting out the most damage. I would argue reaper to be one of the best contender for that role.

While true keep in mind one of the main goals of the tank is to keep aggro and that means you need the highest toughness (bonus points for shield) which means as a reaper you NEED to gear fairly heavily for toughness which basically forces condi spec for damage and if you do that you will either not use RS much or take a DPS loss by using it devaluing your tanking.

Engi on the other hand can just toss on codi+toughness gear and run through their rotation just the same, do more damage and any extra damage they take the druid will take care of.

You should not care if ppl think necro/reaper any class is viable (based on min /max) if you enjoy the class play it. Anet knows necro has been left behind in the past when ppl run dungeons and complain about running a optimal group setup . why would thy design reaper and then make it fall behind again for raids not going to happen. For them to get new players with upcoming expansion the new elite specs is a big drawing card .

In any heavy raid experience I’ve ever really participated in, the biggest part of the team wasn’t who had the best heals or the biggest beat stick. It was always down to teamwork, covering your friends, and staying alive.

Not everyone is going to be running a fully optimized meta team which only consists of exceptionally broken builds with often high skill caps. Some of us have jobs and families, and their experience is going to be based on the friends they run content with regardless of how ultra powerful their classes are.

Necro is durable, has solid damage, and a blood magic reaper, for example, can help friends with life drain by being nearby, plus finish off weakened enemies with spite and reaper traits. It can’t out damage a sinister engie with a top level player? Meh. It’s still a solid and fun class.

I swear, by reading these forums, you’d think the only professions that’ll ever be used in raid are Revenants.

Dire Necromancer as a tank was the best tank we had. Pretty much self-sustainable, healer didn’t really have to bother healing her at all, still a lot of utility with all the boon corrupts, amazing damage as for tank setup. No complaints.

Truefrost.6815:

Lily.1935:

Truefrost.6815:

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Truefrost: Zaroua isn’t confused. He just accepts that there are enough unknowns to make attempts at declaring hard facts about classes and the roles they fill in raids look silly.

Roles are defined by boss mechanics. If we don’t know the boss mechanics, we can only theorize on the roles based on whatever little information we know. We can draw conclusions, but if you submit yourself to following everyone else’s conclusions on DPS, roles, etc., you’ll never find yourself out on the cutting edge of the meta. You need an open mind to make discoveries that evolve the meta, and evolution should be the goal over preaching someone else’s sermon.

Necros might find that they fall short of having a firm role in raiding. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed. I’m just not going to rule it out until the data is in. Vale Guardian on a beta weekend is not an appropriate amount of data, regardless of how professional everyone thinks him/herself to be.

EDIT – @Zaroua: If you mention boons, someone is going to mention Mesmer’s sword auto again which strips boons at a rate of I think 1 every 2.5 seconds, and I’m going to vomit into my mouth again. Please spare my taste buds.

Also, I’ve been avoiding mentioning Patchwerk, but it’s been on my mind for days now. If they are going to create engaging encounters, they won’t be Patchwerk-style, and anything less than a very, very sophisticated simulation mechanism is going to fall potentially woefully short.

The Mes boon removal is actually quite good. Necros have to give up stuff and fall back on large cooldowns. Making the single boon removal quite nice. This of course could change If bosses begin to require a boon removal that removes multiple boons.

You’re completely wrong in this regard. Necromancer’s boon removal is often built into the build a necromancer will already be running. Well of suffering is already automatically run by a necromancer well build as it is. We give up nothing by bringing it. The same is true with Focus which will already be an auto include with dagger or dare I say axe? But to assume that the necromancer has to “Give up something” is completely false and utter nonsense.

First off It’s Well of Corruption that corrupts boons which also has a large cooldown on it, second focus is up in the air. It turns into Warhorn vs Focus, each gives something. We don’t need the vuln from focus anymore.

I’m not saying we’re bad at it, I’m saying It’s not enough of a reason to take us.

Sorry, half with it at the moment. New medication and all. I can’t brain today. I has the dumb.

But regardless. Do you honestly think that we wont have it up during the split phase? Or further down in the raid when it gets harder.

imo we dont need a buff. engi needs a nerf to get back in line with the rest of the classes.

if youve seen the only condi damageable vale guardian you know that u need condi burst not sustain just so u know.

i think the class that needs the most love for raids is definetly the thief because they have absolutely NOTHING for raids. eles are atm not wanted because revenant+engi combination is just a 100% upgrade from ele but i think if engis back in line with the other classes people will take eles again. i have seen like 5 vale guardian kills and countless of trys and there was only 1 thief and he didnt really do a lot. necros are just fine imo.

“any extra damage they take the druid will take care of.”

That’s assuming you bring a Druid in the first place. Why not run a tank that doesn’t require a Druid being there and having a raid group that has enough healing potential to not require a Druid healing them. You don’t need to sacrifice a DPS slot for extra healing, you only need to blast water fields when needed – at least for Vale Guardian. I’m pretty sure that anet won’t balance around needing a pure healer and that pure healers will be a crutch that bad groups will bring to be on the safe side instead of playing better and doing without it.

Goldenrevolver.4371:

imo we dont need a buff. engi needs a nerf to get back in line with the rest of the classes.

if youve seen the only condi damageable vale guardian you know that u need condi burst not sustain just so u know.

i think the class that needs the most love for raids is definetly the thief because they have absolutely NOTHING for raids. eles are atm not wanted because revenant+engi combination is just a 100% upgrade from ele but i think if engis back in line with the other classes people will take eles again. i have seen like 5 vale guardian kills and countless of trys and there was only 1 thief and he didnt really do a lot. necros are just fine imo.

I’m pretty fine with engi being top DPS because out of all classes out there, they need the most effort to play.

I’m more concerned with revenants being a heavy armour class which can achieve DPS that high by just spamming autoattack. It’s not even like Heartseeker or Gravedigger spam where the animation and cast time has potential to screw you over (not much, but its there).

Xae Isareth.1364:

Goldenrevolver.4371:

imo we dont need a buff. engi needs a nerf to get back in line with the rest of the classes.

if youve seen the only condi damageable vale guardian you know that u need condi burst not sustain just so u know.

i think the class that needs the most love for raids is definetly the thief because they have absolutely NOTHING for raids. eles are atm not wanted because revenant+engi combination is just a 100% upgrade from ele but i think if engis back in line with the other classes people will take eles again. i have seen like 5 vale guardian kills and countless of trys and there was only 1 thief and he didnt really do a lot. necros are just fine imo.

I’m pretty fine with engi being top DPS because out of all classes out there, they need the most effort to play.

I’m more concerned with revenants being a heavy armour class which can achieve DPS that high by just spamming autoattack. It’s not even like Heartseeker or Gravedigger spam where the animation and cast time has potential to screw you over (not much, but its there).

Yeah, Rev can do some awesome things, but a lot fo it is so passive, can’t say I’m looking forward to it all that much. Reminds me of PS war, it’s great, you want one, but do you really want to play it? naw

Xae, in order to get that dps revs have to swap into shiro, which kills their group support, and running down energy using impossible odds, which gates how long they can sustain it for and means they get less benefit from outside quickness, as well as receiving no benefit from alacrity. Give staff eles or sinister engis quickness and alacrity from a mesmer and they will jump way ahead while the rev only gets a minimal boost.

Mercurias.1826:

In any heavy raid experience I’ve ever really participated in, the biggest part of the team wasn’t who had the best heals or the biggest beat stick. It was always down to teamwork, covering your friends, and staying alive.

This is the “bring the player, not the class” design mentality, which is what I’m really hoping ANet tries to capitalize on. I specifically remember a rogue in an old Burning Crusade raiding guild who bragged about his DPS fairly frequently, and he was also frequently the first to die to mechanics.

DPS checks are all well and good if you’re trying to make sure a group is geared properly for the next stage of a raid (though I still thought they were the most boring fights, and I have always been a DPS), but without any real gear progression, I really hope ANet focuses much more on executing complex mechanics as a team.

I’ve made a lvl 80 necro just in this month, because of the Reaper. In Pvp a good player with Reaper dominates, helps teammates (Endless chill, endless weakness). And 20-25 stack of weaknes on a Vale Guardian isn’t good?! Not to mention chill will do dmg on big bosses(like condition dmg)… so what’s the problem?! With Reaper I can do fire damage, might, weakness, with every single autohit(and it will stack)!! Not to mention the Reaper will be the last who dies in raids, and even can be a good dps- tank, using Blood magic trait!
Engi’s are great incondi, but in dps?! What if the second Vale guardian will be only DPS, the Third only condi..?! The Reaper can do both DPS and condi dmg fine!
If you don’t belive me, then why is that in Pvp betas the Reaper is the best class in my oppinion (both condi and dps).
The engineer is good in condi only or DPS only, not both!
One Reaper is a must in every raid in my oppinion!

Not sure what you’re saying Otto, DPS is simply Damage per Second, I can’t help but think you’re confusing it with Power Damage? If so, yes you lose out if you stick in Sinister gear on power damage, but you can equip EG in place of bombs and rifle in place of pistols and still pump out decent damage, if you have 2 sets of gear you can jump up to do a potential of 14k in pure power damage.

Some interesting links for theoretical potential (of course as has been discussed, take it with a grain of reason and think about how it’d apply to a practical situation)
http://i.imgur.com/2U3vc0A.png – power build
http://i.imgur.com/NBV0vs0.png – Power rotation with sinister gear( I’d note that rune changes would likely bring up total damage, but leave the power damage as is, more bleed by a bit and relatively close burns)
http://i.imgur.com/gUGC1KJ.png – condi rotation with sinister gear

Also, Power build is in general a bit easier to pull off if you’re well practiced, things match up better and easier to optimize. Though like the condi build it takes a stationary target for max damage, but it’s mainly because of Acid Bomb, so stationary for a few seconds every 15s.

One thing is good. We don’t have any dsp circlekitteners in our guild. Gkick instantly when somebody start to calculate DPS.

Junkpile.7439:

One thing is good. We don’t have any dsp circlekitteners in our guild. Gkick instantly when somebody start to calculate DPS.

All progression guilds/guilds who take PvE seriously will analyze accessible data in order to improve. The goal for many is knowledge that will help them perform better. The fact that some try to use numbers to lord over others doesn’t mean the calculation of damage makes someone elitist.

I just want to make sure you realize that intolerantly kicking someone who may just be trying to improve is no different than the people you most likely despise kicking someone who wants to just play and has no real desire to improve. It’s the same coin, just on the flip side.