The new conditionmancer (guide)

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Thank you! I saw the video already from youtube. Despite my stand of condition in dungeon, I really think conditionmancer is the intended design of necro. It’s good to have some guide finally since Lopez’s is down.

I’m still going for the 30/30/x/x/x trait. It makes more burst for trash mobs/things like gauntlet and don’t cap the bleed as much.

Well yeah… created that option at the end, since i anticipated a lot of people would still want their burning.
You’re welcome, good luck

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

As always thank you for all of your great work nemesis! Truly and amazing asset to this community.

Thank you for you feedback

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Why not take Terror?

Fearing mobs is counterproductive in pve. Plus some bosses are completely immune to fear (the condi doesnt even show up).

This.
~ and a few more characters

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Praise Nemesis! I tried this out for some Pavilion farming and a bit of other messin’ around, -really- enjoyed it. Although I, like other people, can’t wait to see a new rendition of it for WvW (if you intend on doing one of course).
Good work as always!
P.S. your voice gives me warm feelings.

Yes i am working on a video for it… was just really busy with real life stuff.
Lol… thank you @voice comment.

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Posted by: Ormiga.6183

Ormiga.6183

13 posts in a row? wtf dude?

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Thank you for all your work. I learned SO much! I’m very much looking forward to your WvW build as I spend most of my time there.

You’re welcome… WvW build coming soon

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Great work, I and the rest of the Necro community applaud your efforts.. roll on the wvw build !

Soon… and thanks

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Prepare to be trolled by someone with full melandru runes + lemongrass food.

He explicitly said this was for PvE.

I must’ve missed the part where he said it was pve only that is my mistake. However condition isn’t too good in pve either unless you are the only condition person in your team since there are stack limits for bleed and burning doesn’t stack in intensity.

I know because my necro is basically identical to his in build and traits and my dps chars consistently outperform my necro in damage.

It’s a fun concept to have and it did work very well in wvw prior to the whole -condition meta but currently it doesn’t appear condition builds are optimal in any field.

Which class ? What build and how many targets ? Sustained or burst ?…
These numbers matter…

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

I would recomend this build to new players. It has high EHP, is ranged and doesn’t loose much efficiency if you use all your skills on cooldown. Of course you can do it wrong, but it won’t hurt that much.

Othewise, if you want AoE as a necromancer, go hybrid. Have you ever heard of this Nemesis-guy? He wrote a really good hybrid guide. You should watch it.

Guide is not bad. If you want to play conditions, thats a good way to do it. (Well, I would use Dhuumfire, since nothing but guardians F1 causes burning in the average party, but anyway.)

The problem is: in PvE you need both AoE-Burst (trash) and sustained singletarget dps (boss). And this build has neither. Have I ever mentioned, that my warrior (in organized groups) deals more sustained AoE-damage with greatsword autohits than every conditionbased necromancer? Like, 20% more damage?

Emmmm… i remember you since you had a nice contribution to the glass cannon build, so i am taking you seriously.
If you saw the math calculations… when i use epidemic in a good scenario i do ~ 300.000+ damage on 6 targets over ~10 seconds.

Your auto-attacks with greatsword can hit 3 targets…
My epidemic 300.000 / 10 seconds = 30.000 DPS on 6 targets… for you to match that with only 3 targets you’ll have to do auto-attacks of 10.000+ on 3 targets, and you’ll have to have a DPS uptime of 100% for 10 seconds with melee auto-attacks… can your warrior do that ? If it does i might just switch my main haha… seriously…

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Nemesis, mate, as usual a great job in explaining your builds.
I absolutely love the new way of presenting your videos.

I cannot wait for the WvW condo-build.

Keep up the good work!

Thank you… working on the WvW video.

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

I would recomend this build to new players. It has high EHP, is ranged and doesn’t loose much efficiency if you use all your skills on cooldown. Of course you can do it wrong, but it won’t hurt that much.

Othewise, if you want AoE as a necromancer, go hybrid. Have you ever heard of this Nemesis-guy? He wrote a really good hybrid guide. You should watch it.

Guide is not bad. If you want to play conditions, thats a good way to do it. (Well, I would use Dhuumfire, since nothing but guardians F1 causes burning in the average party, but anyway.)

The problem is: in PvE you need both AoE-Burst (trash) and sustained singletarget dps (boss). And this build has neither. Have I ever mentioned, that my warrior (in organized groups) deals more sustained AoE-damage with greatsword autohits than every conditionbased necromancer? Like, 20% more damage?

maybe on boss, but would like to see someone (not necro) that kills Ascalon fractals 48 mobs baster than my necro, or Shaman spawns, or the icebrod guys in the first part, or maybe… the 4 golems in the last part of the harpy fractals, everithing about conditionmancer in PVE is not about the damage on 1-2 targets its about our UNIQUE ability to almost instagib X6 mobs (Yeh you heard me right X6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Warriors and guardians kill them really fast. Hybrid is ok in fractals but having another warrior is probably more useful.

Here we go again… i won’t say anything…

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Yeah but they do more damage with cleave than necro does with aoe.

I said i won’t say anything but meh…

Some people keep saying that, i’m not saying it’s not like this… i’m not saying it is like this.
I am saying that i want proof that… like i told molch….

If you saw the math calculations… when i use epidemic in a good scenario i do ~ 300.000+ damage on 6 targets over ~10 seconds.
Your auto-attacks with greatsword can hit 3 targets…
My epidemic 300.000 / 10 seconds = 30.000 DPS on 6 targets… for you to match that with only 3 targets you’ll have to do auto-attacks of 10.000+ on 3 targets, and you’ll have to have a DPS uptime of 100% for 10 seconds with melee auto-attacks… can your warrior do that ? If it does i might just switch my main haha… seriously…

So… do i get to see the 10.000+ auto-attacks on 3 targets with 100% DPS uptime ?
If i do… or any other method in which your DPS on 3 targets is higher then mine is on 6… i will immediately roll that class, since i am an AoE maniac…

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Its not really 30k dps though because you have to build up the stacks on one target first and then epidemic. In that time the warriors and guardians have already killed those mobs. And I dont think its 6 targets? Isnt it 4 + the mob you cast epidemic on = 5. Beserker builds achieve about 11-12k dps in optimum conditions. So a warrior with cleave can beat 10k dps on a single target. Plus warrior and guardian have their strongest burst skills as aoe (whirlwind attack and whirling wrath).

Anyway for most groups in fractals the popular composition is 2 zerk wars, 2 zerk guards and 1 optional. Necro is a perfectly good choice in that composition. Its just unfortunate that cleave is very important in a lot of fights in fractals.

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: Brando.1374

Brando.1374

I see this is mainly for PVE.
what would you change for WvW (non zerg type play)

would you still want to give more importance to condi duration than condi dmg?

I did a lot of WvW play recently… and TPvP… i finally finalized the new WvW build, the build i find the most effective. I haven’t had the time to put it all in a video… but i will this week.
It’s not about duration or damage… that’s PvE mentality… it’s about how fast can you get to “X” value of bleed stacks that do “Y” damage… is that enough to kill something or is it lower then the value which can be healable…
That takes into consideration play style as well… anyway i got you guys covered… soon.

Sounds like it should be an interesting build.
I would love to compare it to my current build I run. ( can stack about 15bleeds in under 5 seconds + other conditions if all goes as planned.)

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Posted by: Jaising.7253

Jaising.7253

I just wanted to say thanks for posting that video and taking the time to explain/show how exactly it all translates out. I’m currently lv 54 on my Necro (loving your build so far) 80 Mesmer, Engineer. I put both other 80’s on the shelf and have been wvw on my Necro since lv 4. At level 40 I read/watched your post and video and I’ve never had so much fun in wvw before, thanks again.

Your a credit to your c hosen profession.

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Posted by: Fozzik.1742

Fozzik.1742

This and all your videos are amazingly helpful. Thanks so much for taking the time.

I’ll be very interested to see what you do with the traits in the death magic line… now that greater marks and reaper’s protection are both master level traits. Which to choose? (I know which one I picked, but I’d love to hear your thinking on the matter) Or maybe the build is completely different?

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Posted by: Lane.3410

Lane.3410

I was wondering what your thoughts are on Giver’s weapons (trading condition damage for more duration)?

Does anyone have a response for this? I’m genuinely curious if trading 180 condition damage is worth it for another 20% condition duration.

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Posted by: mordran.4750

mordran.4750

Imo not worth it, all your other conditions are on mid to high cooldowns and for your bleeds it´s useless because you already have 100%+Lingering Curse

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Posted by: themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

OK Nemesis. I love your vids and the fact that you spend a lot of time looking into these builds. I also love the fact that you put the math statistics into a build. But this build that you made shows me that you only care about the Statistics of a build, and not what could happen in combat. I bet you put that 30 points in Blood magic because of the Support you thought it could do. It only does like 300 healing for your allies every like what, 40 seconds. With the staff it might do extra 900-1000 healing. this is completely useless. you could have just got rid of the 30 blood magic and just went with the staff alone. the fact that you said sustained healing is needed is what makes me mad. Maybe you put the 30 in Blood because of the vitality it gives you. I understand that, but as a necromancer, you have lots of condition removal man, lets just get to the bottom, you dont really need to waste 30 points in blood just to get those Extra vitality for incoming condition damage. I see that all you do in the Videos is stay back of the ranks and just condition your enemies, to do that, you dont need taht extra 30 in Blood because here it is: * you aren’t gonna get hit by any condition damage whatsoever, much less any damage!. I personally think that your 30/30/0/0/10 build is much better, that means this build is somewhat useless. this build would suck in solo roaming and would only be useful in zerg roamin or roaming with a small group, and not useful in those situations because of the *Support it gives you, but because of the condition damage. Anyways, this is just my opinion on the build. Anyways, dont take it into heart whatever i just said. I really appreciate your Dedication to the Necro community, I just thought that this build was a mistake. You win some you lose some i guess.

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Posted by: PaulDousen.2619

PaulDousen.2619

Thy for Guide. =) make all champions in 15 min in 1 attempt in thi build!
http://youtu.be/JpEGqeHb7Jo

(edited by PaulDousen.2619)

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Posted by: Godless.1857

Godless.1857

OK Nemesis. I love your vids and the fact that you spend a lot of time looking into these builds. I also love the fact that you put the math statistics into a build.

-snip-

I just thought that this build was a mistake. You win some you lose some i guess.

Just curious if you’ve actually tried the build out? So far you haven’t even tried your own builds out as far as we’ve been able to tell.

One small point, you talk about solo roaming, but this build is for PvE. Nemesis has said he’s working on a newer version of his WvW build, which will probably state if it’s for solo-roaming, small group, etc.

I’ve been trying out a build based on this one (very few minor changes for my own preference/available gear) during the current event, and the healing it provides for me personally is very welcome. I’ve been able to take on and kill 4-5 event veterans fairly easily by myself, before the zerg shows up. When the zerg does show up, I can do tons of aoe damage while keeping weakness up on most of the horde. And with the dots ticking and healing coming in, I can tank nicely while reviving all the zerker players that get downed.

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Posted by: themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

Ok man. I appreciate that you are liking Nemesis’ build. He definitely deserves it to the very last percentage. ButThe fact that people think that the healing is very awesome in this build is because they are not taking any damage! Hello! what kind of necromancer takes damage in PVE!? Because you are not taking much damage is why you think that the healing of this build is very useful, when in reality, it sucks. It’s like you are forcing yourself to like this build when you yourself realize that putting 30 in Blood Magic is not the Smartest idea in PVE. Most Necro PVe players just stay back in range and just cripple and chill hordes as they advance and move back some more. I also see taht you talk about reviving zerker allies and act like this build really helps carry it out. But you trying to revive them really has nothing to do with the fact that Nemesis put the 30 in blood magic in his traits. That is where i think nemesis messed up a bit. So waht if he tries to incorporate more healing in his updated version of this build, it will fairly disrupt all other stats of this build and make it even more useless than now. BTW I have tested my builds out. Dont you think i have done that by now? lol.

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Posted by: Asche.5362

Asche.5362

BTW I have tested my builds out. Dont you think i have done that by now? lol.

After looking at your recent thread: No I don’t think you did. lol.
Running through Queensdale, protecting melons from rabbits is not playtesting.

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Posted by: Axle.5182

Axle.5182

WOW guys don’t go de-railing the thread

Axle
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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

OK Nemesis. I love your vids and the fact that you spend a lot of time looking into these builds. I also love the fact that you put the math statistics into a build.

-snip-

I just thought that this build was a mistake. You win some you lose some i guess.

Just curious if you’ve actually tried the build out? So far you haven’t even tried your own builds out as far as we’ve been able to tell.

One small point, you talk about solo roaming, but this build is for PvE. Nemesis has said he’s working on a newer version of his WvW build, which will probably state if it’s for solo-roaming, small group, etc.

I’ve been trying out a build based on this one (very few minor changes for my own preference/available gear) during the current event, and the healing it provides for me personally is very welcome. I’ve been able to take on and kill 4-5 event veterans fairly easily by myself, before the zerg shows up. When the zerg does show up, I can do tons of aoe damage while keeping weakness up on most of the horde. And with the dots ticking and healing coming in, I can tank nicely while reviving all the zerker players that get downed.

Like a baus… people like you make me proud

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Posted by: themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

Hey nemesis, I have tried your build out since the day you made it. I saw your vid and i was like. OMG that looks very unique! I tried in all sorts of different dungeons to see where it succeeded. Of course it did well. BUt not because your build was good, but because I was using a necro. WHat i am saying is that you shouldn’t have put the 30 in Blood Magic if this build was mainly for PVE. You might think that it is good Support, but in reality, it doesnt really make a whole lot of difference. I just want you to know that if you think i am talkin trash about your build, I am not. I just feel that you are very much ignoring the fact that putting 30 in blood magic was a major mistake and thats why i feel this build is not that great.

Edit: keep this in mind and try to be a bit more realistic about your build next time. When you are creating a build, you have to always think about how it would fail, not how it would succeed, which is what you seemed to have been doing.

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Posted by: Taerik.3405

Taerik.3405

@menace, you have a very skewed vision, and I was not impressed when I went through your build list, but I will try to argue against your points

1) Blood magic does not make the build useless, it might not be the best choice in your eyes but it actually does stuff. And going into the power tree (which I do personally, but it was a hard trade, im playing around with perplexity runes and I DO need the duration) Gives you stats that 1) you dont need and 2) is 30 points basically for dhuumfire only. The condition duration from the power tree isnt needed for most builds

2) Support in this game is lacking for ALL classes, the only ones halfway useful are guardian because of how strong protection is and how much he can spam it, and warrior because wtfbanners. Im fairly certain that anets vision is to not bring a pure support character, but to bring all damage dealers that bring a small amount of support. Once you achieve your role that your building for the rest of what you have should be for the team. This build does that very well, the other option as discussed is to dump 30 points into spite for burning, good for soloing mobs a few seconds faster but not needed in group PvE at all.

3) I dont think you are trying to do it, but your comming off as talking down to nemisis (trash talking as you put it). At least in my eyes you are, and I think it is because your builds never recieve the positive feedback Nemesis gets and you want to see some negativity in his threads too. Spoj manages to critique his builds without me reading his post and feel like he is trashing him. Maybe Im wrong but thats what I see

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Yeah I only want to help people. I will never trash a build without giving good explanations as to why I disagree with something.

Thing to note, power is never a useless stat and I do agree with most other people that 30/30 is better even for a full condition build. Duration is good and power is always helpful. Which is why id argue carrion armour is also better, maybe mix in some rabid or rampager trinkets to boost crit chance.

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: Budchgon.2108

Budchgon.2108

I mainly WvW, have my Rabid armour sorted and just waiting for the WVW build from Nemesis :-)

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Posted by: themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

This is specifically to taerik and spoj. I am really wondering how the heck you guyz can act so hyprocrite ish. First of all, you are saying that I am dissing Nemesis and hating on his build because I dont get attention on my builds. I really dont care much anymore about my build because I cant make you guyz go and try it out. You will only try out the builds of someone who has been playing the game much longer and who is more experienced, I get that. I love Nemesis’ dedication and everything so far that he has done. Second of all, I have explained in my first post in this thread why I dont approve this build in PVE situations. It is right above your comments. Since you are a bit lazy to look at them. I will say it again. There are two reasons that is wrong with this build.

1. Nemesis said the reason he put 30 in blood magic is to be able to Support his allies. Even you agreed with me above that no profession is able to support as well as the guardian. The healing that comes off the the Blood Magic is not enough to actually be much of significance to allies. I mean come on. 300 healing on wells every 40 seconds is bull crap. It is not even sustained. Reason Nemesis says that his healing is sustained is because of Staff number 2 skill, which means that you dont even have to go with the 30 blood magic for the extra 300 heal every 40 seconds. If he were to try to increase his healing, his whole build would no doubt come apart like jenga.

2. The second reason Nemesis said he put 30 in blood line is because he wanted to be able to take direct condition damge. this would be exceptable if you were a profession that couldnt do crap about conditions. BUt a necromancer? I mean Commme Onnnnn. This is basically wasting your 30 trait points for nothing. Absolutely nothing.
For Necromancer PVE plays, it isn’t the condition damage that can kill you most of the time, it is the Direct Damage of the mob that can kill you, not the condition damage. If you get one wrong hit off a horde or a champion, you automatically like lose 1/4 of your health. For taht you gotta have toughness, not some unuseful health. If you have any better idea of why this build is so good with the 30 in Blood Line just tell me. I would be happy to hear why you think that adding 30 in Blood Magic was an awesome idea.
His 30/30/0/0/10 is better off for PVE. Sometimes unqiue is awesome, but in this case it fails to convince me.

I am sorry that I am acting so worked up about this whole matter, just taht you guyz are again trying to make me a bad guy when all i am doing is trying to put more emphasis on what i am saying so that you guyz actually listen. What I messed up in the past was because I was very inexperienced at handling the forums. It was my first time. I am trying to make it up now and all you are doing is bringing up something that happened a month ago. It is very lame and I hope that you will put a stop to it yourselves.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

How shall I put this delicately…

Nemesis is a very well-respected member of the community. He puts a lot of math behind his builds and takes us through his reasoning methodically. He’s also been here since the early days of the game trying to talk the excitable members of the forum off their ledge, so to speak.

You… haven’t earned our respect yet. As you noted, you mishandled your first few threads. Most of your builds have had… baffling issues with them that have left most of us unimpressed. Your analysis here also seems off-the-cuff, like you’re theorizing.

Now, there’s no reason why a new member of the community might not be right about a certain point while a more established member is wrong, but your critiques in this thread have been brash with little room left for opinion. So while you may not be wrong, you’ve presented yourself as being obviously and necessarily right, as if you were an expert PvE Necro teaching the baby necro Nemesis how to tie his shoes. That may not have been your intention, but your tone just reeks of what’s either an appalling lack of self-awareness or a magnificent superiority complex.

Consequently, we’re disinclined to take you seriously.

I’m not telling you to cowtow to the old grognards or anything. Just, try to act less like you think you’re a necro prodigy and everyone should bow to your ineffable dark words.

(Also, try to split your responses up into sensible-length paragraphs. Your giant blocks of text come off as rambling and unfocused, and are truthfully a bit difficult to read.)

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

As for your critique itself:

1. Nemesis said the reason he put 30 in blood magic is to be able to Support his allies.

He said that was a secondary reason. The primary reason was because he wanted to increase his survivability (so he can stand and apply bleeds longer), but Death Magic’s traits aren’t all that great for condition builds. Trait choices are way more important (and build-defining) than what the trait line gives you.

So basically, you’re remembering what he said incorrectly. I just re-watched that section to confirm.

2. The second reason Nemesis said he put 30 in blood line is because he wanted to be able to take direct condition damge. this would be exceptable if you were a profession that couldnt do crap about conditions. BUt a necromancer? I mean Commme Onnnnn. This is basically wasting your 30 trait points for nothing. Absolutely nothing.
For Necromancer PVE plays, it isn’t the condition damage that can kill you most of the time, it is the Direct Damage of the mob that can kill you, not the condition damage. If you get one wrong hit off a horde or a champion, you automatically like lose 1/4 of your health. For taht you gotta have toughness, not some unuseful health.

And he has Toughness: quite a lot of it from his Rabid gear.

For ideal durability, a generic Necromancer build would have equal amounts of Health and Armor, with some preference for Armor if your build makes heavy use of Life Siphoning. At least, that’s what the consensus seemed to be back when we worked through the math.

This build uses full Rabid armor, jacking its armor up to 2,564. With 300 in Blood, its health is 23,081, which means (taking all his Life Siphoning into account) that this build likely has close to ideal durability.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
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Posted by: themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

themenaceofseventhdimension.2075

you know waht, I am sorry if I have made this community aggitated by my use of words. Forgive me if I went a little overboard. It’s just that all the past mean comments that I recieved sorta got to me and I started giving feedbacks with harsh criticism mixed. I am sorry I just tried to give what I thought could be improved with this build. Any ways, sorry to Nemesis and all of this community if I bothered you a lot. I am glad 99% of the people in this community like his build. that’s all that matters. CHeers to Nemesis for many good years to come.

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Posted by: Molch.2078

Molch.2078

I would recomend this build to new players. It has high EHP, is ranged and doesn’t loose much efficiency if you use all your skills on cooldown. Of course you can do it wrong, but it won’t hurt that much.

Othewise, if you want AoE as a necromancer, go hybrid. Have you ever heard of this Nemesis-guy? He wrote a really good hybrid guide. You should watch it.

Guide is not bad. If you want to play conditions, thats a good way to do it. (Well, I would use Dhuumfire, since nothing but guardians F1 causes burning in the average party, but anyway.)

The problem is: in PvE you need both AoE-Burst (trash) and sustained singletarget dps (boss). And this build has neither. Have I ever mentioned, that my warrior (in organized groups) deals more sustained AoE-damage with greatsword autohits than every conditionbased necromancer? Like, 20% more damage?

Emmmm… i remember you since you had a nice contribution to the glass cannon build, so i am taking you seriously.
If you saw the math calculations… when i use epidemic in a good scenario i do ~ 300.000+ damage on 6 targets over ~10 seconds.

Your auto-attacks with greatsword can hit 3 targets…
My epidemic 300.000 / 10 seconds = 30.000 DPS on 6 targets… for you to match that with only 3 targets you’ll have to do auto-attacks of 10.000+ on 3 targets, and you’ll have to have a DPS uptime of 100% for 10 seconds with melee auto-attacks… can your warrior do that ? If it does i might just switch my main haha… seriously…

I did the (rushed and inaccurate) math for 3 targets for the necro and the warrior. In that case, the warrior just needs 5k autohits and thats no problem. To surpass your damage on 6 targets (while he hits only 3), the warrior needs both his full rotation and a good team.

By the way, I won’t argue, that conditionnecro is insane strong in high level ascalon and dredge.
But thats like… 3% of the game?

(edited by Molch.2078)

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

I would recomend this build to new players. It has high EHP, is ranged and doesn’t loose much efficiency if you use all your skills on cooldown. Of course you can do it wrong, but it won’t hurt that much.

Othewise, if you want AoE as a necromancer, go hybrid. Have you ever heard of this Nemesis-guy? He wrote a really good hybrid guide. You should watch it.

Guide is not bad. If you want to play conditions, thats a good way to do it. (Well, I would use Dhuumfire, since nothing but guardians F1 causes burning in the average party, but anyway.)

The problem is: in PvE you need both AoE-Burst (trash) and sustained singletarget dps (boss). And this build has neither. Have I ever mentioned, that my warrior (in organized groups) deals more sustained AoE-damage with greatsword autohits than every conditionbased necromancer? Like, 20% more damage?

Emmmm… i remember you since you had a nice contribution to the glass cannon build, so i am taking you seriously.
If you saw the math calculations… when i use epidemic in a good scenario i do ~ 300.000+ damage on 6 targets over ~10 seconds.

Your auto-attacks with greatsword can hit 3 targets…
My epidemic 300.000 / 10 seconds = 30.000 DPS on 6 targets… for you to match that with only 3 targets you’ll have to do auto-attacks of 10.000+ on 3 targets, and you’ll have to have a DPS uptime of 100% for 10 seconds with melee auto-attacks… can your warrior do that ? If it does i might just switch my main haha… seriously…

I did the (rushed and inaccurate) math for 3 targets for the necro and the warrior. In that case, the warrior just needs 5k autohits and thats no problem. To surpass your damage on 6 targets (while he hits only 3), the warrior needs both his full rotation and a good team.

By the way, I won’t argue, that conditionnecro is insane strong in high level ascalon and dredge.
But thats like… 3% of the game?

What i am saying… that while warrior might be king of DPS 3 targets, necromancer seems to be king of DPS 6 targets… we all have a place on this earth together.
Also it’s not about 3% of the game… it’s about all places with more then 3-4 mobs… when heavy AoE sustain is required i’m there…

I only had a problem claiming that you can do more DPS on 3 targets with auto-attacks then me on 6 with more then just auto-attacks… i find that highly unlikely.

I already did the math… warriors cleaving 10k each hit it’s… i never tried it, but personally i think it can not be done, i don’t even want to think of the WvW implications of something like that…
SPARTANS !!!!… ~ you get the idea…

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(edited by Nemesis.8593)

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

you know waht, I am sorry if I have made this community aggitated by my use of words. Forgive me if I went a little overboard. It’s just that all the past mean comments that I recieved sorta got to me and I started giving feedbacks with harsh criticism mixed. I am sorry I just tried to give what I thought could be improved with this build. Any ways, sorry to Nemesis and all of this community if I bothered you a lot. I am glad 99% of the people in this community like his build. that’s all that matters. CHeers to Nemesis for many good years to come.

Thank you, and good luck to you too.

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Posted by: WolfHeart.1256

WolfHeart.1256

As a regular subscriber I can only say excellent work yet again. I focus primarily on WvW and have been using a alternate focus 30/30/10/0/0 that works very well in large group battles and fairs great in duels or small skirmishes.

Again, great job.

[WOLF] Howlerin || Seafarer’s Rest
“They say you are what you eat.
Which is funny ‘cause I don’t remember eating a f.ing legend”

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

@Menace

I never actually responded to your post. I actually agree with what you’ve said. You did come off as slightly aggressive which is why some people in this thread have attacked you. People dont like others telling their idols they are wrong. You should try and tone down your posts and be a bit more polite, people on these forums take offense so easily. Ive had a hard time trying to tone my posts down so I dont upset anyone but then I still seem to manage it every now and again. Forums are full of emotional and stubborn people and thats not going to change.

Blood magic seems a complete waste to me for many of the reasons you provided and the reasons nemesis chose it just seem like excuses to put the points somewhere. You dont actually need any of them.

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Posted by: Taerik.3405

Taerik.3405

Yes the points in blood magic he does say are not for the primary focus of the build, he achieves that with 30 points actually, and thats because conditions have so little you can do to actually boost thier damage, which is why condition builds are easy on any class to turn into a supportive build if the class traits are available for it. He explains all his decisions very well, and at the end does put in an alternative build for people who disagree with the blood mage path.

When I do play conditions I personally go into spite because I dont feel I need the safety blanket, stuff dies so fast when aoe sustain is needed (and you cant always max sustain at range, DS 5 and 4 are awesome still) that if I go down I rally in seconds.. I also like being 30/30/x because when you get to the end boss, it takes almost no effort to swap a few traits, throw my other set of gear on and now I am playing almost a full power build, not very optimized but because I can get more damage single target with power I play power for bosses for the most part.

I guess I rambled a little, the point I was wanting to get to is even though I dont play nemises build for conditions the way he plays it, his video, discussion, and presentation were of EXTREME use when making my own decisions

“There is no best build, only best at”

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Posted by: Zaganna.6034

Zaganna.6034

Nemesis has done a great job, in all his video. But I really think that people should understand that this game isn’t something like WoW.

Builds aren’t parameters. Builds aren’t static.
You can morph your build according your playstile , because Gw2 allows you to.

You don’t need more life because you can endure? Fine, go 30/30/x.
Your ally can support them self enough? You have a party of friends who you trust and know that are capable players? Fine, you don’t need to have a support tree if you don’t wish too.

As long you are satisfate with your character (damage out put, damage incoming, support skill) there’s no need to change.

My conditionmancer is 30/30/0/0/10.
I use veggi pizza, scepter of giver for reach 133% bleed duration with out runes. Cause I decided to use the new Tormentor rune.
Plus less cd on DS skills.

I see damage, I survive, i like it!!

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Posted by: mobilejunkie.9260

mobilejunkie.9260

Nemesis, any word on your WvW build?

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Posted by: Lopez.7369

Lopez.7369

This build is much worse than 30/30/0/0/10 for PvE and cookie-cutter 30/20/0/0/20 for PvP and WvW.

The biggest flaw with the video and build is the assumption that burning is useless in group settings. That’s simply false. Burning is prioritized based on the source’s condition damage, so a well-geared condition necromancer’s burning will usually take priority over burning from the rest of the group. That’s a substantial damage gain for the group and necromancer.

Some other problems:

Signet of Undeath is practically mandatory in high-end fractals. It isn’t as big of a deal in farming runs or world PvE, though. (It will probably be required whenever they add more challenging PvE content, such as raids.)

Blood Is Power is far from mandatory. Since Epidemic and Signet of Undeath are required in high-end situations, Blood Is Power is usually the best thing to replace when Well of Power, Well of Darkness, Signet of Spite, Corrosive Poison Cloud, Corrupt Boon and Spectral Grasp are necessary.

Terror is by far the largest DPS gain in the entire Curses line. As one example, it gives roughly 10 times more single-target DPS than Master of Corruption, assuming the necromancer is fearing on cooldown through Death Shroud. (A good build will take Hemophilia, Master of Corruption and Terror, but the comparison between Terror and Master of Corruption should show just how powerful Terror is in single-target fights.)

Staff should not be switched to in single-target fights because it’s a massive DPS loss compared to scepter and dagger. Staff should only be used for the opener and AOE.

Life Transfer is much worse DPS than just dropping out of Death Shroud and using fury through staff or scepter and dagger. Life Transfer is only for survivability.

Condition necromancers don’t do low single-target DPS. I know a lot of people assume that condition builds are bad DPS because the numbers are smaller, but, barring bleed cap, condition necromancers are on par with power builds because of the powerful mix of terror, bleeds, burning, torment, and poison and — this is key — range capability. (In general, people massively undervalue the ability to stay in range, particularly in fractals.)

(edited by Lopez.7369)

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

This build is much worse than 30/30/0/10/0 or a power build for PvE and cookie-cutter 30/20/0/0/20 for PvP and WvW.

The biggest flaw with the video and build is the assumption that burning is useless in group settings. That’s simply false. Burning is prioritized based on the source’s condition damage, so a well-geared condition necromancer’s burning will usually take priority over burning from the rest of the group. That’s a substantial damage gain for the group and necromancer.

Some other problems:

Signet of Undeath is practically mandatory in high-end fractals. It isn’t as big of a deal in farming runs or world PvE, though. (It will probably be required whenever they add more challenging PvE content, such as raids.)

Terror is by far the largest DPS gain in the entire Curses line. As one example, it gives roughly 10 times more single-target DPS than Master of Corruption, assuming the necromancer is fearing on cooldown through Death Shroud. (A good build will take Hemophilia, Master of Corruption and Terror, but the comparison between Terror and Master of Corruption should show just how powerful Terror is in single-target fights.)

Staff should not be switched to in single-target fights because it’s a massive DPS loss compared to scepter and dagger. Staff should only be used for the opener and AOE.

Condition necromancers don’t have low single-target DPS. I know a lot of people assume that condition builds are bad DPS because the numbers are smaller, but, barring bleed cap, condition necromancers are on par with power builds because of the powerful mix of terror, bleeds, burning, torment, and poison and — this is key — range capability. (In general, people massively undervalue the ability to stay in range, particularly in fractals.)

You didn’t watch my video fully, only in bits… i can tell by what you just wrote, so i am not going to say too much on your feedback except the fact that 90% of the stuff you think i said, i didn’t…

It’s not as simple as you’ve put it, and i’ve explained and demonstrated it all.

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Posted by: Lopez.7369

Lopez.7369

That’s fine if you think that. I just hope other people read what I said. I don’t want to offend you, but your build is very bad and unfocused.

Honestly, the amount of misinformation spread by these kinds of videos is what compelled me to make my own guides to begin with.

(edited by Lopez.7369)

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

I never assumed burning is useless in a group setting, i assumed that burning does 900 DPS on single target and about 6x 900 DPS on AoE… i also assumed that i can apply burning aka 5x 900 DPS on AoE without applying the burning myself…

I also assumed that i can do in AoE confusion, burning, torment, bleeding… any and all conditions without me being the source of them, while they still use my own condition damage.

Then i assumed that if you have a secondary role… you are build in such a way that you can synergize with other team members in such a way, that you can play a secondary role of support WHILE not overstacking conditions WHILE having a overall DPS lower by 900 ?… Does the burning 900 DPS really count in the grand skim of things… when you have 25 stacks of bleeding x6, burning x5, confusion x5… and so on…

You’re loss of 900 DPS on single target guarantees not only higher DPS uptime for those team members you support, but also gives you something to do so that you don’t overstack in any or all party compositions (they have to be pretty good ones though… not 4 burners…).

Everything i assumed i backed up with math calculations and visual demonstration of the proof of concept… as in numbers and the fact that i demonstrated that i don’t even attack something all i do is dance then epidemic and i do insane AoE damage…

You also assume that single target condition type damage can rival bursting type damage on single target… As the math clearly demonstrates your single target DPS with conditions if you never overstack with anyone with burning is at best 3575 + 828 + fear damage (which is not sustain type)… an average of 5000 ?…

See what’s Spoj’s opinion on how much he can do with his power build… cause in good scenarios (like never overstacking with anyone else) i can do with my power build 6-7k every DS 1 hit ?… buffed even more… + time warp (time warp does nothing for a condition type build because cap).

Last but not least… i’ve created the 30 30 0 0 0 alternative for people who still do not favor this playstyle or like this way of thinking.

So… like i said… it’s not as simple as you’ve put it.

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Posted by: Silver.4798

Silver.4798

I really enjoyed watching the theory behind this build and then trying it out myself, it’s really fun to play, thank you for taking the time to make this, I can’t wait for the WvW build!

It’s just a little disappointing reading through all this “PvE content is easy” and “just go power build in PvE and ROFLstomp everything why are you bothering with taking extra survival” and “this build is not as good as build x y and z.” Sounds like a lot of people have an inward desire to play every class like Warriors or Thieves (and I wont lie, they are extremely fun to play. I would recommend rolling those classes to everyone).

Necros aren’t warriors or thieves though, and to not exploit their amazing AoE condi abilities is depriving ourselves of a fun and alternate way to play GW2.

I don’t think nemesis ever claimed that this is the best build ever created for the necro, it is just “one build.” Nemesis says early on in his video that he’s working under the assumption that condition damage is a form of damage over time, so you need both a damage source and ability to stay engaged in a fight and survive. He uses Curses for all the damage, and blood magic to stay alive longer so conditions have time to do their thing. Very simple and clean plan, I don’t understand this blood magic hate. It is definitely consistant with the theory of this build.

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Posted by: Lopez.7369

Lopez.7369

Dismissing 900 DPS is pretty weird, although it’s actually a little less than that. That’s a lot of damage.

Another problem is all the self-healing in the build is mostly useless. It’s just not necessary in the DPS role. Providing yourself with more damage and group utility is much more important.

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Posted by: Godless.1857

Godless.1857

@Lopez.7369
900 dps is not a lot, when from that one condition alone being applied by someone else, epidemic can turn it into 4500 dps in total across 5 different targets, instead of 5400 across 6. And that’s just ONE condition, never mind a perplexity warrior / engineer stacking 20 confusion for you to spread around as well.

The self healing is not useless, it plays on the fact that you are spreading conditions everywhere – and procs from multiple targets over and over, increasing your ability to tank. I’ve tried it, it works fantastically well. Not in theory, but in practice.

As stated previously in the thread, during clockwork chaos event, I can stack conditions, blow SoS and Epidemic, get the numbers rolling – run into the thick of things and start reviving while getting hit from multiple mobs and get back out with almost full health again ready to start rotating skills again.

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Posted by: Taerik.3405

Taerik.3405

@Lopez, based on your feedback I am actually going to stand up for nemesis again even though i dont play his blood magic option myself

1) The build is clearly meant for pve, his pvp build also focuses heavily on terror as you try to point out.

2) Terror is bad for pve, on trakitten moves mobs out of the clumps, lowering your groups dps from things like cleave, aoe, etc, and a good majority of the time it doesnt work on a boss mob

3) Yes you are correct in solo play you miss burning and about 900 dps from the burning, but in group play I have NEVER been in a group that doesnt already maintain at least 75% burning uptime, so is that last second or so of burning really worth 30 points, you can make points either way for it, but I promise you that in groups you dont need to bring burning yourself so if that is the reason you put 30 points in spite well you need to re-evaluate what you want to do with your build. Now if you want to put 30 points in spite because you want to be able to do some power based damage against objects (like eternal flame im cof2) Then there you go.

Nemises chose 30 points in blood because he feels for the role he wants to play, 30 points in spite JUST for burning which your group ALREADY applies therefore wont be YOUR 900dps isn’t worth it, and weighed his options between the remaining trees and chose blood, which is a VERY sound decision.

This build choice is not for everyone, I personally do not like blood magic, it doesnt do enough of what it is supposed to do for me to like it, I think it is playable but not like I want to play. I personally play with 30/30/0/0/10, but my reasoning is
-Roll around with a different set of runes
-I run solo often farming random stuff
-I have one of those perma bank express items, so when the dredge fractal pops up and we get the ice boss, it takes me about 15 seconds to swap a few traits, click a few pieces of gear eat a different food and now I am playing a power based hybrid build with some condition damage in it, it isnt a max power 30/10/0/0/30 build that I like better, but it works very well I think and thus I feel justified in having 30 points in spite in a condition builld.

Please dont assume the community is mindless sheep that follows every youtube vid 100%. I like Nemesis videos because he explains all the decisions he makes, everyone can clearly see where they dont agree with his choices and make thier own. Also he doesnt have the attitude your bad if you dont listen to me. The videos are a very strong resource for anyone to look at, from day 1 necromancer newbie to a veteran because it shows a different perspective of looking at things. Spoj is also a good resource sometimes when he actually explains his build choices, I tried to search your posts looking for your own design choices but got tired after the first few pages, your a real gem in the pvp forums though.

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Posted by: Lopez.7369

Lopez.7369

While AOE is very important in PvE, it’s not everything. Most of the difficult encounters in PvE boil down to boss fights, where single-target DPS plays a huge role. Given that, it’s important to have good single-target DPS for those situations. (It’s also worth pointing out that in many of the AOE situations you guys are referencing, you could go in with any build and succeed because build doesn’t really matter. In my opinion, it’s a lot better to optimize for the situations in which a build does actually matter, such as boss fights, than situations in which the most important issue is tagging mobs, such as the Clockwork Chaos events.)

With that said, here are some points to consider:

In single-target fights, the 900 DPS from burning is huge. To put it in perspective, it’s about 24 percent of the DPS typically obtained through a full bleed stack. Put another way, it’s six bleed stacks. Adding six bleed stacks to your single-target rotation is huge. It’s the biggest single-target DPS gain in all the trait trees. It obviously won’t be as beneficial in AOE situations because epidemic can spread the burning applied by teammates, but, like I said earlier, AOE situations aren’t everything. (Keep in mind that burning is prioritized based on the source’s condition damage. If a power guardian is stacking burning, a condition necromancer’s burning will tick first. So even if you see burning on a single target, that doesn’t mean the maximum potential is being obtained from that condition.)

Terror is a decent DPS gain. It’s easily the biggest DPS gain in Curses. There are some AOE situations where you want to keep mobs clumped up, but there are two solutions to those moments: Don’t fear or, better yet, use a snare — immobilize, chill or cripple — before fearing. Either way, in single-target encounters there’s no doubt that terror is absolutely worth it, especially since the fear won’t actually fear when a boss has defiant.

The self-healing is absolutely useless in PvE because it’s just not necessary and much worse than the other options. If you want more DPS, go Spite. If you want to support, get the well traits that grant protection and lower well cooldowns so you can heal teammates and grant them some survivability. Even if you don’t want either of those things, you really shouldn’t need that much self-healing in PvE situations unless you’re carelessly running into mobs or getting hit by mechanics. In that case, the only advice I can give is to improve your play and learn to avoid damage; not only will that boost your survivability, but it will boost your DPS by letting you maximize DPS uptime and pick up traits that actually increase damage.

I also think Nemesis is slightly undervaluing power in the video. It’s obviously not the ideal stat for condition necromancers, but the 200 power he’s not picking up is about 15 percent less direct damage. That’s not huge because of how poorly scepter and dagger scale with power, but it does make an impact.

I’m not trying to belittle or speak down to anyone here, but most of PvE is a math problem. In the case of this video, it unfortunately gets the math problem wrong. Some of the concepts Nemesis discusses, such as cleverly using Epidemic, are good and helpful, but a lot of the video is frankly misleading and mathematically unfounded.

(edited by Lopez.7369)