Guild Wars 2

Prior to today I did well against them. Now they seem like they still hit for as much as before if not more and don’t die as fast as before either. Have techniques for them changed any since the patch? I thought watching SOTG there burst was supposed to be getting nerfed as a trade for more survivability.

We/They did. I have a thief as well as a necro and trust me, the burst went down a good 3-5k per “mug” on average. Due to the S/D you may just see them building differently.

I don’t know thief well but after losing a bit I watched a fair amount of them in spectator mode. Mostly what I saw as 1-2 hours of backstab, hs, hs, hs, win. Of course they ppl they were owning were not dodging very well either. I guess I expected more of a trade off for the fact they were given another semi “meh” heal and what to me seems like a really effective boon steal. I always thought the 10k backstab was more of an issue than mug or hs anyway.

The highest backstabs I’ve seen within the past month were around 8k in sPvP against pure glass cannon. You say you don’t know thief well yet you can so arrogantly imply they are OP.

If it helps you out, the new popular thief weapon set is S/D (that means sword/dagger). It allows for the thief to make many teleports to the opponent and back again, powerful skill 1 damage, and boon deleting and stealing. Also each time the thief teleports away using the sword, he removes one condition.

Arrogantly… For saying it does not seem like they (anet) accomplished the exact thing they said they were trying to accomplish. That arrogant to ask a question or question anything in any way? Exactly why most of this this community is kitten.

Turbo Whale.1738:

The highest backstabs I’ve seen within the past month were around 8k in sPvP against pure glass cannon. You say you don’t know thief well yet you can so arrogantly imply they are OP.

If it helps you out, the new popular thief weapon set is S/D (that means sword/dagger). It allows for the thief to make many teleports to the opponent and back again, powerful skill 1 damage, and boon deleting and stealing. Also each time the thief teleports away using the sword, he removes one condition.

And its a stun breaker… with no cool down.

Turbo Whale.1738:

The highest backstabs I’ve seen within the past month were around 8k in sPvP against pure glass cannon. You say you don’t know thief well yet you can so arrogantly imply they are OP.

Hmm I ate a 8.5k backstab while having 1.8k toughness day before patch….

Thief is fine. Backstab is strong, but every profession has a really strong skill or two. The S/D set doesn’t have the burst that the D/P set has, but it does have better sustain and a substantially more interesting playstyle.

The S/D set gives them an opportunity to play a different way, but in the little time we have had since the patch they haven’t been out of line that I have seen. They still die without too much effort, and still can’t do much in teamfights besides gank and run.

Frankly I think the change to thief is a good one (I main Necro, but have a thief as well among others). The thief’s ability to cleanse frequently and strip boons on demand might just be enough to push the meta out of stagnation toward more diverse, balanced teams and save us from this dreary, boon stacking, bunker dominated snoozefest.

I was hit for about 10k with that new larcenous strike when I had 2.5k armor (according to my death recap). Thieves with as many boons as a guardian from stealing them is just stupid.

Ok, I think I figured it out, I just don’t know how to counter it…yet.

One they all run the assassins signet I believe it is called which due to the changes acts as more of a sustained dmg buff than before when they had to pop it before there burst. Hence before if a thief popped it and you dodges the opener they where boned or had to stealth and try to run away and reset, now there open is potentially a bit less (mug nerf and less reason to pop AS active), but long term they have more sustained dmg by saving the signet. The counter-dodge more I guess. Maybe weakness, fumble, or spending more time in DS than before. Basically take note that thiefs are hitting a bit harder during the fight and a bit less on the opener.

Two, and this I have no idea how to counter, thiefs are the new ele and guardian rolled into one with great damage too. By this I mean everyone and there mom played ele and/or guardian before. Now in spvp thiefs are stealing boons off them like crazy and are running around with fury, protection, and might ect like its going out of style upping there damage even more. Initially I though let them have boon stealing, I’m a necro and anet thinks DS it so great “sarcasm” we don’t need boons, so they wont steal from me. What I am seeing now is thief owns the poor kitten ele, or guardian, then I’m jumping in taking on a thief with a bunch of boons at the start of the fight. Problem is other than boon stripping them there’s not much that can be done on our part to counter this Boon strip/ convert and hope you can get them off before they kill you is the only active option. But its not optimal because most of our skills to do so are on a longer cooldown. That or just hope that others stop running so boon heavy to give thiefs yummy buffs to nom nom on.

I’ve thought the previous balance adjustments were generally steps in the right direction. This one is certainly a bad one as they nerfed a lot of class strengths into unplayability and boosted things that didn’t need boosting as per this sword thief discussion.

zainey.5021:

I’ve thought the previous balance adjustments were generally steps in the right direction. This one is certainly a bad one as they nerfed a lot of class strengths into unplayability and boosted things that didn’t need boosting as per this sword thief discussion.

I do think sword needed a buff, and thief REALLY needed a new mechanic. The issue is I don’t think the mug nerf was enough of a trade off for what they got. Theoretically there idea of reducing burst did not work cuz now they can steal boons with one set then use them to do even more damage than before with the other despite the nerf to mug which was never as bad as backstab to begin with. Backstab you cant see coming 95% of the time and it takes 1/3 to 1/2 of your hp right at the start of a fight.

Animation and pathing fix is good for Flanking Strike and that’s all that was needed. It’s too much now.

well for once pvp is full of thief atm, and their burst (especially doubled by two thiefs) is impossible to counter. Especially as necro. Your traps barely slow them (marks) or condition damage. All to slow, burst takes you down in SECONDS.

I saw one thief do 6x heartseeker in row, how is that even possible. 10 ini max, (unless traited, but almost no thief takes that).

I’ve started a thief yesterday to add to my alts collection, never liked the playstyle but my WvW Necro needs more info on them so I’ve buckled up for the ride.

First thing I noticed: With a dagger/pistol, you can stealth by comboing Heartseeker in the pistol #5. No big deal. Yet, if that Heartseeker hits someone, you dont get out of stealth.

Just that small thing gets on my nerve and explain a lot of unavoidable damage and burst. You can chain a invisible Heartseeker with a Backstab and in WvW even with 2500 armor those hits like a truck in a fraction of second. Heartseeker also seems to move way farther than the 450 it claims to be, surely because every thiefs use the speed signet and it seems to boost their range? I chill/cripple them all the time, yet they’re stuck on me like glue.

In other games I’ve played, once in combat, stealth was scarce, and good thiefs had to use those scarce abilities at the right time. Right now it’s spam-fest and no real counter, and that’s the biggest problem for me.

There’s still a lot of work to be done with stealth mechanics, so that we can enjoy and counter-play a thief to make great duels instead of luck-based ones. (And please add more anti-stealth mechanic, not only on Arrow Cart )

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

well for once pvp is full of thief atm, and their burst (especially doubled by two thiefs) is impossible to counter. Especially as necro. Your traps barely slow them (marks) or condition damage. All to slow, burst takes you down in SECONDS.

I saw one thief do 6x heartseeker in row, how is that even possible. 10 ini max, (unless traited, but almost no thief takes that).

I don’t even understand how backstab heartseeker thieves have fun. I literally will get backstabbed out of nowhere then they proceed to press 2 until I’m dead or they are out of initiative. If they run out of initiative they will stealth with a utility and run as fast as they can. I can beat them if they stand and fight, but generally if I have the upper hand they will stealth and run until they regen then try to burst me again.

Killing people is always fun. Easy or hard, it is always good to win.

The walk-back on the revealed duration was a big miss in my opinion. The big problem with thieves in WvW right now, is that it is literally impossible to kill smart ones contesting keeps, or killing yaks, even with a horde of people.

The same thief two days ago was contesting and re-contesting our keep. I think we had 10 people trying to stop him to no avail. Between the teleports, leaps, buggy cliffs they can port up, it was a chore. The one time I manged to keep up with him on my necro, and he actually decided to stay and fight, he went down. At least his overconfidence made up for his overpowered mobility.

I don’t know for the life of me why the decided that chaining and stacking stealth in a game where stealth is a combat mechanic was a good idea. When a thief goes invisible, he can literally run anywhere he wants, chain in another stealth or two, and you cannot prevent this. There is no way to reveal them, or follow them, or track them.

The system is just broken in WvW, and I have seen so many thieves since the patch as a result of the ele nerf and the walk-back on the revealed debuff.

KeyLimPi.9031:

We/They did. I have a thief as well as a necro and trust me, the burst went down a good 3-5k per “mug” on average. Due to the S/D you may just see them building differently.

S/d damage is the same as pre-patch. It just now strips a boon and offers a cheap evade.

@ Rennoko: the 3 sec revealed is pve only, it says in the patch notes.

WvW counts as PVE though, and I think it should just have it’s own system separated from both PVE and PVP, just for easier balance and troubleshooting.

I am both a necro and a thief, and would like to add that the thief can either choose to get a backstab in without you seeing them coming or have a certain escape because of shadow refuge. SR is on a 60s cd (40s traited, which can actually give the option of both the escape and entry), but can give 15 seconds of stealth if they stay within the area for the duration. Also, shadow refuge is a quite obvious field (it has a house over it even), and if you see that field you know you need to be on your guard. Really, the best way to shut down backstab thiefs is obviously, don’t let them backstab you, or at least try to be in DS when they do, so it doesn’t come out of your health. Really, it all comes down to anticipation, thieves are ironically one of the most predictable classes, if they go stealth they’re trying to get behind you. Once they stealth is the best time to pop up some retaliation (spiteful spirit/unholy feast) as they wont be able to preform a backstab without taking damage back (unless they don’t have mug, which would allow them to use steal and stay stealthed, but then they probably aren’t bursting)

I’m not saying that complaints are unwarrented, but I think misdirected, the issue isn’t so much with the thief, but moreso with the limited mobility of the necro, the only way to combat a thief as a necro is to try to limit their mobility in return (which thankfully the necro has a lot of options for).

I have both a thief and a necro full geared, multiple sets.
Lets talk about WvW, cause i dont even care about sPvP and tPvP..

Necros in WvW,

They provide much more utility than a thief. (Many AoE Control abilities (Staff/Wells)
They are much more durable than a thief (Death-shroud/Plague form)
They can play CD in great effect even in larger scale . (Corrupt Boon/Epidemic/Terror)
They have a bit weaker single target than a Thief (Depending on build)
They have more AoE sustain damage to bring to the table in general.

Thiefs in WvW.

Superior Single target if played that build (Alot of single target Burst nerfed many times)
CD spec is not that effective as people will say,You wont hurt people as much as a necro
A few AoE abilities that hurt short-bow/daggerstorm (Cluster bomb Blaster finisher)
Much more mobility, evading utilities (Blinding powder/Shadow refuge/Hide in Shadows)
Much less AoE control abilities (Limited options)

See? Classes have there pluses and minuses, Its not smart to go around calling things OP.
Learn the skills, Adapt to the game, Think about changes and how they affect you.

Again this applies to WvW only, PVP against thieves are not really an issue because of the lack of Crit damage:

I eat a lot of… “bad” or new thieves even on my hybrid spec, with has much less survivability than PVT or Rabid spec. They spam 2-2-2 in my Plague form, try to Daggerstorm each time they encounter me even if I’ve corrupted their stability countless times before in the same night etc etc. Those do not count as a Win for me, it’s skill’s issues.

However against really good one, you normally won’t be able to do much, it’s a one way street. The burst in WvW is totally out of this world, and no amount of toughness is gonna save you from those numbers. Only dodge/block/invulnerability will. Add to that the counters that thief have against our skills, and it’s kind of normal that it ends that way.

Now like I said before, Stealth mechanic seems to be a big chunk of the problem. Being able to chain cloak and dagger, Black powder into Heartseeker not removing stealth if it hits, are all part of it.

Retaliation unfortunately isn’t that good of a tradeoff, trading a 7k hit for a 330ish hit (and that’s with full power) isn’t going to stop them doing this.

As emotions doesn’t translate well in texts, I just want to add I’m not ranting, just stating that they are a very good counter to our class and that some mechanics could be changed to give us more fun when fighting this profession, and I’m sure thiefs would find it more fun too in the long run. Imagine, no more blackmails, whispers full of hate, /laugh when a zerg finally caught you…

WvW got the walk-back on the 4 second – 3 second reveal according to the SOTG ANET guys. I don’t play thief often, and don’t have a problem with revealed on my mesmer, so I have not checked, but it should have been reverted according to them.

The problem isn’t taking what each of the classes can do at a 50,000 foot level, and saying.. “well necro has better AOE and control… so it must be okay?”; it has to do with looking at what access to frequent stealth does in an environment where location and positioning is everything.

I don’t care about combat and thieves…. I think the mug nerf was fine, and hit a big burst tool for them. Not where I would have hit, but it still hurts their burst, which was over the top. My issues is with a thief that is yak hunting, or keep contesting, or a team of thieves camp flipping.

You can’t prevent them from leaving, you can can’t know when they are coming back. They should have made stealth last however long the skill was suppose to stealth for, then you pop out, end of story. I don’t care that SR gives a really long stealth, I care that they can chain heal stealth and others to extend it for far too long.

Especially with the changes to swords, and the continued defenselessness of yaks, this is going to get worse before it gets better.

Panhauramix.2784:

Again this applies to WvW only, PVP against thieves are not really an issue because of the lack of Crit damage:

I eat a lot of… “bad” or new thieves even on my hybrid spec, with has much less survivability than PVT or Rabid spec. They spam 2-2-2 in my Plague form, try to Daggerstorm each time they encounter me even if I’ve corrupted their stability countless times before in the same night etc etc. Those do not count as a Win for me, it’s skill’s issues.

However against really good one, you normally won’t be able to do much, it’s a one way street. The burst in WvW is totally out of this world, and no amount of toughness is gonna save you from those numbers. Only dodge/block/invulnerability will. Add to that the counters that thief have against our skills, and it’s kind of normal that it ends that way.

Now like I said before, Stealth mechanic seems to be a big chunk of the problem. Being able to chain cloak and dagger, Black powder into Heartseeker not removing stealth if it hits, are all part of it.

Retaliation unfortunately isn’t that good of a tradeoff, trading a 7k hit for a 330ish hit (and that’s with full power) isn’t going to stop them doing this.

As emotions doesn’t translate well in texts, I just want to add I’m not ranting, just stating that they are a very good counter to our class and that some mechanics could be changed to give us more fun when fighting this profession, and I’m sure thiefs would find it more fun too in the long run. Imagine, no more blackmails, whispers full of hate, /laugh when a zerg finally caught you…

You referring to a 1v1 against a good thief.

Remember, A thief is much more mobile than you
And is considered a Assassin “bursty” type class
You need to let him burn his heavy initiative on you.
You need to make him burn Hide in shadows (heal-remove CD)
You need to make him burn his longer CD’s if he is running any of them.
You cant outrun him or kite him, you need to drain him slowly with a CD build.
A very bursty hard hitting thief is probably that as tanky as you are.

I currently run on my thief 2700 armor, 55% chance, 90% cd,19k life,3200 attack.
im considered a tanky thief, Most of them dont run down that road, so expect much less armor and life than what i have currently.

Your necro should be about the same Armor/Life with Rabid, if not more.
Plus you have Death shroud and your elite for a meat shield to gain time.