Guild Wars 2

As many of you know, I play a team support healing necro. For damage I count on my condition damage.

Then I come upon this video.

I know for a fact that this ele in the video team heals better than me. MUCH MUCH better.

I know for a fact that this ele in the video deals more damage than me. MUCH MUCH more. That’s now even counting condition removals.

My AoEs cannot hit siege. His can.

I cannot disengage anytime from the zerg to recover. He can.

When I go down I cannot mist form away. He can.

People might think I am being unfair. But look:

Death Shroud? No one cares when it is 7vs50+.

Boon removals? No one cares when it is 7vs50+. You got to kill them fast, that’s it.

Its been my long term belief that necros are fine in a zerg. And all those classes like thieves and eles can only run away. They can’t actually fight when facing superior numbers.

I was wrong.

Necros might be fine in a zerg. But eles can fight 7vs50+. Which would you prefer?

Eles doesn’t need to run away at all. They can fight head to head just fine, 7vs50+. They just get the bonus option to run away when they need to, that’s all.

Sure that team is a very elite spvp team. But what can an elite necro do in this situation? 7vs50+ necros got no chance.

Ok now I am not suddenly saying necros are useless. But it is disheartening when I realize the “full potential” of other classes. These classes’ skill ceilings are out of this world. Whoa just whoa…

Anet, I hope you are reading this and watching that video. And I hope you finally give the necro something to work with.

CHIPS.6018:

My AoEs cannot hit siege. His can.

We may not be as precise as an ele, but we do have an AoE option for hitting siege on a wall. Move to the base of a wall beneath where you guestimate the siege weapon to be located. Activate Death Shroud. Use Life Transfer. Life Transfer passes through objects and can hit siege weapons sitting on top of or behind a wall.

I agree it’s not ideal, but the option is there.

There’s a reason I hardly touch my Necromancer these days. I kind of regret wasting the time getting an Ascended back piece for it. I could have put it on my warrior or guardian instead. >_<

It’s not that the class isn’t viable, but it’s just not very fun to play.

Ele seem like the best WvW class as they fill many roles and fill them really well!

Although we simlpy don’t have the same survavability once we’re in combat, the elementalist in the video isn’t pulling the entire weight of the party by himself. And yeah, I know all the things you pointed out as pro-ele… we can’t do those things, even with a support build like yours.

But!!! That opposing zerg was nothing short of absolutely pathetic!
Completely disorganized. If they clumped up and then ran up all together (instead of sending in 1 guy at a time), maybe even through a spectral wall or a shadow refuge, those 7 brave people would have died in 5 seconds.

And there was never a 7v50 situation. The enemy zerg started out with 20-ish people, that’s when they sacrificed one or 2 players at a time. So it was really a 7v2. Later their numbers inceased to 50, which is also when they finally grew a pair and ran up alltogether. And surprise: that’s when the heroes of this clip finally perish.

Always a fun vid to watch. I am actually the top commenter on there. Go me!

Yeah, it is true. That ele heals for more. I am sure necromancer would heal just as well if our weapon gave us 5 extra skills that deal almost solely with healing. Also, a lot of the healing came from the combo fields inside his AoE heals, which they used many times, healing for more than his skill would.

His damage is certainly potent, but Anet has said that they plan to reduce AoE, so that the damage does not surpass single target damage. Also, Eles are designed to pack a punch AoE wise. It is almost their core aspect of the class. AoE and comb fields. Necro is just not designed for that.

The siege aspect pretty much sucks. I agree. I hope a change will eventually come into play so our marks and conditions can actually be of worth on objects. It sucks laying down my marks and hope someone passes through them to hit an arrow cart. :P

We can, we just have a harder time of it, and have to actually put thought into it, and even some planning. xD

Mist form is annoying. But smart attackers can easily counter it.

DS: I am sure no one cared about his teleport either. But they did care about his damaging AoE. DS can easily be something to cause a lot of damage to the enemies as with, as well as ensuring you live long enough to deal even more damage.

Boon removals: Zergs gotta heal too. If an enemy would have been able to consistantly remove their boons, they would have been facing more pressure than they were. (They barely faced any pressure at all.)

Thief manages to take on a load of players mainly because they disengage and reengage. A thief does this by focusing one person down, ignoring the rest, and then stealthing and preparing to do it again. A DD ele generally just facetanks all the damage thrown while keeping up boons. A staff ele does this by remaining at max possible distance.

Those eles did not fight truly head to head. They crippled, CC’d, and blasted back enemies while dropping AoE to punish those caught in the AoEs. A good group would have easily rushed through and taken down them very easily. Staff Eles drop quite fast when they are focused, and if the attackers were smarter, they would have definitely wiped the eles extremely fast.

Also, it was not 7 eles. They had a thief with them, and… drum roll please… a necro!!!!!!!! Yes, they had a necro with them. So apparently they aren’t as outclassed as you think, else why else bring the necro. Why not roll a staff ele and hold back 100’s of people?

This is an isolated event where you have 7 well-trained and coordinated players, versus many very bad players.

What would I rather have, necro or ele? I would rather have someone competant, as that will go much farther than an average player playing any class.

People make fun of staff ele’s all day long. D/D is so much more powerful.. blah blah blah…

But I play my staff ele just like that guy does, and whenever I log onto my necro, I feel like I’m wasting a spot in the raid. Like a moonkin in MC (if any of you played wow)

Every necro in the forums talks about how well they can support a group, and all I can think is that they have never played a staff ele, or hammer guardian, or a mesmer with those funky reflective shields.. that’s group support. Even a banner warrior puts necros to shame.

And the more ele’s you get, the better the support gets. The more condition-mancers you get, the faster you reach the bleed cap.

People can argue the merits of this build or that build all day long, the simple fact is that necros and engineers are on the B-Team, and their overall design is so bad, that it is never going to change.

…but just to be clear, and for emphasis, a full support build necromancer is no more valuable than a hybrid ele, guard, mesmer, or warrior.

Yerffejy.6538:

If an enemy would have been able to consistantly remove their boons, they would have been facing more pressure than they were. (They barely faced any pressure at all.)

Exactly…

Yerffejy.6538:

A good group would have easily rushed through and taken down them very easily

Exactly…

Yerffejy.6538:

Also, it was not 7 eles. They had a thief with them, and… drum roll please… a necro!!!!!!!! Yes, they had a necro with them. So apparently they aren’t as outclassed as you think, else why else bring the necro. Why not roll a staff ele and hold back 100’s of people?

Exactly!

Ezeriel.9574:

the simple fact is that necros and engineers are on the B-Team, and their overall design is so bad

rly?? -.-
Not true for both necro and engineer, I’m sure the majority of engis will disagree as well.

tbh the enemy zerg is kittening pathetic. they just stand there and do almost nothing instead of just pushing up the ramp and crushing these ~7 guys.

as for the ele vs. necro thing:
-yes, it’s frustrating how much of everything (damage, heal, mobility, survivability) eles have
-the disparity of direct damage vs. bleeds/condition damage is a general problem of wvw cause of all the removals and how weak cond.-damage is against strutctues, but that isnt exactly something new
-that necro’s DS becomes worse and worse the more enemies are attacking you while blocks/invulnerabilities are still good, isnt new information either.
thats what many ppl here in the forum complain about for quite a while now; that Anets concept doesnt work in WvW and necro simply needs at least one way to block incoming damage

I find it hilarious how some Elementalists would rather say 50+ players are bad than possibly admit their class is more than a little on the OP side.

I main Necromancer, I cannot do ANYTHING that the Ele did in the video. I switched to Mesmer, and Elementalist today instead of the usual Warrior/Ranger. I felt like a God, just healing everything, removing all conditions and still inflicting serious AoE damage on both staff AND dagger.

Don’t even get me started on tPvP. That team in the video is barely slightly above average compared to some of the teams I see in PvP built around Eles.

See, in my opinion, the main problem is that Arenanet is trying to make everyone be everything. You can’t, nor should you.

Here is how the classes should’ve been handled:

• Support: Monk (I hate Guardian)
  This should be the ONLY class with AoE healing/AoE Condition removal, but end up completely glass without any team support.

• AoE Damage: Elementalist
  This should be the strongest raw AoE damage class, but still glass without teammate support.

• AoE Boon stripping/Pet: Necromancer
  This class should be a master of summons, or a massive AoE boon stripper that is very tough, but does virtually no DPS and relies on opponent’s killing themselves with their own strengths. (Either that, or an glass DoT AoE stacker that bursts opponents with conditions, and gets stronger the closer he gets to death. You know, cuz “Necro”-“Mancer”)

• Mobility: Thief
  The thief should be less focused on damage, more focused on scouting, and delaying/trapping enemies. Expert harassers.

• Single target DPS: Ranger
  Rangers should be strong at applying damage from a distance, which they lack now and have to make up for in traps and conditions… Should be very glassy

• Tank: Warrior
  Warriors should be unrivaled front-line shock troops. Should have strong damage, and strong survivability. Stacks boons on allies.

• Bunker/Long ranged AoE: Engineer
  Engineers should dominate as a bunker with turrets (And already do, at the moment, but not as effective as they should) Their Mortar/Grenades should also be tougher to use, but stronger at an effective distance. (They should have longer range than Ele) They should be incredibly hard to kill.

• Hybrid: Mesmer
  Mesmers should be the Jack of all Trades, Master of None. Solid DPS, solid conditions, good mobility, decent support, and average in survivability. Chaotic wild-cards.

That is how I imagine a perfectly balanced game, in all modes. So that classes would be valued in different ways. Not this nonsensical ‘bursting Guardian’ ‘bunker Ele’ nonsense.

Now obviously Arenanet has tried for the whole “Play the class the way YOU want”, however all they’ve succeeded in doing is make a bunch of stereotypical builds that exist on different levels of viability across all classes. Which has been working so well -sarcasm-

RashanDale.3609:

tbh the enemy zerg is kittening pathetic. they just stand there and do almost nothing instead of just pushing up the ramp and crushing these ~7 guys.

Yea I agree. Apparently they forgot what attack was once they entered the tower.

Ele is fun, no doubt about it.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

That is how I imagine a perfectly balanced game, in all modes. So that classes would be valued in different ways. Not this nonsensical ‘bursting Guardian’ ‘bunker Ele’ nonsense.

Now obviously Arenanet has tried for the whole “Play the class the way YOU want”, however all they’ve succeeded in doing is make a bunch of stereotypical builds that exist on different levels of viability across all classes. Which has been working so well -sarcasm-

First you claim that one class is so much better at xyz, then you propose that all classes should be good at just one thing, and one thing only…
So instead of “stereotypical builds” you would have stereotypical classes.

Also, the game is not designed to make players run in a huge group, where you need one healer and one tank blabla…. So your idea would inevitably lead to the exact opposite balance.

You would have to sacrifice a few things. Anyhow, I loved GW1.

It would be a hell of alot more balanced than it is now, but more desire for every class.

The ele played well as did the group, but this would be the worst video ever if that group just continued up the stairs and rolled over those guys after the commander died instead of standing around like sheep.

No matter how talented they are, there’s no way 7 guys should of held off that zerg unless the zerg stood around like they did in that video.

Plus there is a necro in that group…

Well… When I see this kind of vidéo I always tell myself “Oh great! I’d love to play against this kind of foes!”
Sorry but this zerg is doing so poorly It’s painful to watch. They are barely 15 at the same time against the Ele team and almost never packed. This video could be named “What a zerg should not do”.

Well Ele are like gods actually in a lot of situation. They may have some really good burst spec, great sustain build and really good tanking ability.

But so we did. Healingmancer can sustain and condition transfert without any problem, Powermancer can burst down anything, conditionmancer are super effective. When it come to tanking we are sturdy like rock! I could have gone in this zerg with my current build based on vampirism and danced with them for age.

Necromancer lack very few things to be on par with any other class. Boon that last longer, some combo finisher (nothing on axe/scepter/daguer/horn/focus why?) and a lil bit of mobility.

PS. : Mr Mightytroll yer talking about some préhistoric mecanism. Right now we are free to do whatever we want with each class we play. What you want is narrowing their possibility and that’s prehistory. When i bought GW2 I understood by their advertising that’s they wanted that none of the class could be “best at” and that’s why I bought It. It’s sure that In some way there are classes that are in great need of improvement when it come to quality of life. But all in all the only guys that say that “this class is crap” are guy that don’t understand how to play this class.

All I take from this vid is…

1. Voice chat groups are far better than text chat groups.
2. DON’T stand in a choke point. EVER, unless you want to be a loot bag.
3. Siege is overrated. They were still using siege after the gate was down. A might stacked group that raced up the ramp would have wiped the defenders.
4. There are so many offensive and defensive moves that attackers could have done to make this an easy wipe…………

Fire fields for might, water fields for heal, light fields for retaliation, hammer warriors/guardians for hard CC, feedback, wells, veil, portal bomb, any kind of organized attack plan using the people in your group would have cleared that tower in seconds.

Swamurabi.7890:

All I take from this vid is…

1. Voice chat groups are far better than text chat groups.
2. DON’T stand in a choke point. EVER, unless you want to be a loot bag.
3. Siege is overrated. They were still using siege after the gate was down. A might stacked group that raced up the ramp would have wiped the defenders.
4. There are so many offensive and defensive moves that attackers could have done to make this an easy wipe…………

Fire fields for might, water fields for heal, light fields for retaliation, hammer warriors/guardians for hard CC, feedback, wells, veil, portal bomb, any kind of organized attack plan using the people in your group would have cleared that tower in seconds.

Think about it this way. 7 elite eles vs 50 bad players. Do they have a chance? Yes. The skill ceiling is high enough.

7 elite necros vs 50 bad players. Do they have a chance? No chance at all. The skill ceiling is just too low.

One thing that’s bugged me about Necro, that I wish they’d change, is that Focused Rituals should be 1200 range instead of 900.

Otherwise, you’re watching a vid of a bunch of good players farming a zerg of clueless players.

Elementalist is very good at sieges.

AND

Enemy zerg was remarkably bad.

Both of these can be true. It’s not an either or.

While that video is impressive, you seem to be skimming over that the defending group had a Necro in there. On purpose. So maybe Necros can’t do what that Ele can, but there are clearly other things they can offer. Eles have absolutely no way of stripping boons, for example, and they don’t have any sources of Fear. To be clear, I’m not saying that that’s all Necros have over Eles. I’m just saying, they are different.

Blaine Tog.8304:

While that video is impressive, you seem to be skimming over that the defending group had a Necro in there. On purpose. So maybe Necros can’t do what that Ele can, but there are clearly other things they can offer. Eles have absolutely no way of stripping boons, for example, and they don’t have any sources of Fear. To be clear, I’m not saying that that’s all Necros have over Eles. I’m just saying, they are different.

Boon stacking beats boon stripping by a mile.

Boon stacking: gives mobility, stability, healing, swiftness things you can use to mount an offensive and block/evade/mitigate things like….a boon stripping attack.

Boon stacking is a buff so you will never waste your application of it. Buffs don’t get blocked, evaded, etc.

Combined with invulnerability even if the boons are corrupted you can switch into invulnerability to cleanse conditions.

Generally the rate at which boons can be applied far outstrips the cd on boon stripping.

A character built around boon stripping is only useful against a boon stacker. A character built around boon stacking is useful anywhere.

Necro fear is at best an interrupt, and an Ele knockdown of which they have many, are better than fears as the time you spend knocked down inside an aoe is better than a one second run out of a well for instance. As a side note, thief and warrior fears are longer than necro fears at base.

Otaking.4675:

Boon stacking beats boon stripping by a mile.

You’re getting caught up in the details. That was just one example. My point is just that that group found it to be a good idea to run with a Necro rather than another Ele.

So don’t lose heart! I’m not saying the 8 professions are all balanced and such, just that it’s ok for some to be better at certain things than others as long as those others have other useful things they can contribute. Everyone being able to do the exact same things at the exact same level in the exact same way would make for a boring RPG because we’d all just be playing the same characters all the time. They have FPSs for that sort of thing, but I like that the Guild Wars 2 professions are reasonably diverse while still having areas of crossover, depending on how you spec.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Otaking.4675:

Boon stacking beats boon stripping by a mile.

You’re getting caught up in the details. That was just one example. My point is just that that group found it to be a good idea to run with a Necro rather than another Ele.

So don’t lose heart! I’m not saying the 8 professions are all balanced and such, just that it’s ok for some to be better at certain things than others as long as those others have other useful things they can contribute. Everyone being able to do the exact same things at the exact same level in the exact same way would make for a boring RPG because we’d all just be playing the same characters all the time. They have FPSs for that sort of thing, but I like that the Guild Wars 2 professions are reasonably diverse while still having areas of crossover, depending on how you spec.

I definitely agree with the build variety arguments, but Eles beat Nec by a mile. Another ele means that much more AoE and kd’s to lock down an opponent. Immense amounts of CC and AoE on one class is just like the Bright Wizard days of Warhammer, which was a large part of why that game failed. You can add a Necro to an Ele battle but it will be like bringing a knife to a gunfight. The boon stripping the Necro provides is going to be severely outclassed by their mobility, constant spam of CC, invulnerability, and healing.

Details make or break fights…so yes I am very detail oriented

Absolutely all Ele is boring, and when you log into S you see about 4:1 Ele/nec ratios. There’s a reason for this. You can shoot me, but I’m just the messenger.

Lol, thats my boy Bao (Zoose).

-Zombify

tier 1 wvw:
Thief,Mesmer,guardian

tier 2 wvw:
Warrior,Ele

tier 3 wvw:
Engy, ranger,necro

Based on how easy the class makes it for you, tier 3 classes have to work much harder in my experience.

Sororita.3465:

tier 1 wvw:
Thief,Mesmer,guardian

tier 2 wvw:
Warrior,Ele

tier 3 wvw:
Engy, ranger,necro

Based on how easy the class makes it for you, tier 3 classes have to work much harder in my experience.

I’d bump the engineer up to tier 2 honestly. The HGH condition build is leagues better than necro/ranger at roaming. I’d also swap guardian and ele positions.

OPs video is also quite depressing, but nothing that surprises me TBH. Its been said many times by many people already. Anything a necro can do, some other class can do better.

Frankly, none of the necromancer builds feel adequate to me. Theres always something that feels lacking no matter what I do to try and compensate.

Current state of necromancers honestly reminds me of rangers and elementalists from GW1 after they added hard mode. Constantly being held back due to design mechanics. Despite the many complaints about this philosophy of balance design, ANet remained stubborn and refused to do anything about it. Rangers were never seen in meta groups, and elementalists were always told to dual class monk and heal, as that was all they were good for. In the end they had a pretty low amount of players playing them just like necromancers in GW2. I honestly don’t believe this problem will ever be addressed by ANet. They seem pretty adamant that nothing is wrong with necromancers right now. Meanwhile, necros in GW1 were considered top meta in just about everything. I miss the old necro. Necros in this game is a sad shadow of their former glory.

What Yerffejy.6538 said. +1

The video only proves one thing:

There are way too many noobs in WvW.

CHIPS.6018:

Swamurabi.7890:

All I take from this vid is…

1. Voice chat groups are far better than text chat groups.
2. DON’T stand in a choke point. EVER, unless you want to be a loot bag.
3. Siege is overrated. They were still using siege after the gate was down. A might stacked group that raced up the ramp would have wiped the defenders.
4. There are so many offensive and defensive moves that attackers could have done to make this an easy wipe…………

Fire fields for might, water fields for heal, light fields for retaliation, hammer warriors/guardians for hard CC, feedback, wells, veil, portal bomb, any kind of organized attack plan using the people in your group would have cleared that tower in seconds.

Think about it this way. 7 elite eles vs 50 bad players. Do they have a chance? Yes. The skill ceiling is high enough.

7 elite necros vs 50 bad players. Do they have a chance? No chance at all. The skill ceiling is just too low.

First off, if the zerg facing the 7 necros is as dumb as this one and dont bullrush with 10 on 1 (since aoe limit is 5) then yes the necros will win (especially if its 3+ well necros and 3 plague forms with it).
Second, Golem charge hits like a treb on doors.
Third, Necro skill cap is higher than Ele skill cap (DS, Elite potency and permanent passive , its just that Ele learning curve is vertical while necro is a nice climb up hill that later turns almost vertical.

Reading this thread there are a couple of things that stand out:

First is the irony of all the comments on how poor the enemy players must be for them to have been held of by that much smaller group, yet there is so much praise for the video in this thread when, quite frankly, the opponents shown are as bad, if not worse than the ones shown here.

Second is the comments pointing that a necromancer was involved in the fight, so necromancers must have something to offer, but if you pay attention to the necromancer, you’ll see that he gets downed/dies a few times and is essentially a non factor.

Stop fooling yourselves, necromancers can never carry a fight the way those staff elementalists did.

Andele.1306:

Third, Necro skill cap is higher than Ele skill cap (DS, Elite potency and permanent passive , its just that Ele learning curve is vertical while necro is a nice climb up hill that later turns almost vertical.

Honestly, I don’t feel this is true. I believe this is just what we keep telling ourselves to make us feel better about the current state of necromancers. There is only so much you can do with 10 skills plus 4 from DS. I really believe this is a problem with game mechanics that are holding us back. I can pretty much pick up any class without any prior experience and still do better on it than I can currently on my necromancer, and I’ve been playing necromancer since release.

The problem has never been Necromancers. The problem has always been a lack of cohesion in certain professions and a serious amount of cohesion in others. What do elementalists bring BEFORE utilities? Healing, and Damage, some conditions, and some great boons. Plus whatever utilities they have. Lots of fluidity, lots of situations that can be handled by a single character.
In the end, versatility wins. It always does. If that had been a full team of Elementalists, then fun would be had by them. Lots of damage? Water attunement, maybe some Earth, thank you muchly. Need to take down siege stuff AND the opponents around it, Fire, enjoy. They have an answer to everything, because that’s what elementalists DO. It’s versatility. In a game where builds that force you to focus on a specific function, the one class that gets to evade that restriction will ALWAYS win. Elementalist was a really fun idea but doesn’t work very well in this game.

That was one terrible zerg party.

Well I no I could have plague formed over top of that 50ppl and been like a raid boss while the elemental killled them.

Kravick.4906:

Andele.1306:

Third, Necro skill cap is higher than Ele skill cap (DS, Elite potency and permanent passive , its just that Ele learning curve is vertical while necro is a nice climb up hill that later turns almost vertical.

Honestly, I don’t feel this is true. I believe this is just what we keep telling ourselves to make us feel better about the current state of necromancers. There is only so much you can do with 10 skills plus 4 from DS. I really believe this is a problem with game mechanics that are holding us back. I can pretty much pick up any class without any prior experience and still do better on it than I can currently on my necromancer, and I’ve been playing necromancer since release.

I know ill rot in hell for it, but thats mostly because we still dont use DS correctly, holding onto my build with 30 Into SR i kinda just noticed a week ago (since im currently also leveling a mesmer in pve) how much i could really dowith the stability and hp swap that gets every other class killed (well except full defensive speced warriors and guardians) that isnt just cheating on mechanics in encounters and jumping puzzles.

Yerffejy.6538:

but Anet has said that they plan to reduce AoE, so that the damage does not surpass single target damage.

How long ago was that now, 2 months ago? Is it even still on the table. Instead they just nerfed epidemic. Anet’s fear of whack-a-mole, or counter intuitive idea to
‘boost’ 20 bad things instead of nerfing lone obvious overpowered things, means balancing is moving at a snails pace in this game.

I used to run a supportive necro build till I learned what an elementalist was. After that I was at a loss for a build (I still sort of am) and now I currently just mess around with my spectral build in wvw alone.

I remember when I would make my friends huddle together in my well of blood, I still get made fun of for that.

Monoman.2068:

I remember when I would make my friends huddle together in my well of blood, I still get made fun of for that.

I’ve actually seen this get people killed in WvW. Rather than spreading out, they all stood on the well. Then a warrior rushed in, hit them all with Hundred Blades -> Whirlwind combo and just wrecked them. I’m sure the warrior was glass cannon, but still. I found it hilarious that a necro ability designed to support people ended up getting them all killed. Then I felt depressed after I realized what just happened.

Otaking.4675:

Details make or break fights…so yes I am very detail oriented

Not in this case. I wasn’t part of that group and the video isn’t from the Necro’s perspective so it’s hard to tell exactly what they had their necro doing. I offered an example or two of reasons why one might want a Necro over an Ele but I wasn’t being all-inclusive. Not by a long shot.

Otaking.4675:

You can add a Necro to an Ele battle but it will be like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

But that’s exactly what that group did. They brought a Necro to the fight, and since they held off a 50+ zerg with only 7 defenders for 20 minutes, you can’t simply dismiss their choice because it clearly worked very well for them. That’s the evidence before us in this thread. You can’t say “this video proves no one would ever bring a Necro rather than an Ele” when the group in this very video brought a Necro. I realize you have an axe to grind but you’re using the wrong whetstone.

Poxheart.2845:

Second is the comments pointing that a necromancer was involved in the fight, so necromancers must have something to offer, but if you pay attention to the necromancer, you’ll see that he gets downed/dies a few times and is essentially a non factor.

She’s far from the only one to go down, nor does she really spend all that much time down, all things considered. Even the viewpoint Ele goes down a few times, though he’s mostly saved by lucky instant rallies.

Ramiah.5648:

In the end, versatility wins. It always does.

Quickened Counterargument!

The Necromancer is plenty versatile. Everyone is. The Elementalist has some great tricks they can pull and I’m not going to say they aren’t versatile, but you know, I have a lot of characters and skim across a lot of profession’s message boards and the overriding message I see repeated over and over again is this: “Everyone else is better and more versatile than me.” Seriously, just about everyone thinks they’re underpowered. Not Guardians as much (they tend to be fairly chill) and the Necro board is weird because I’m not constantly being told that X spec is trash and I HAVE to use the One True Spec that’s been determined by the community to work, but you are not special in thinking that your choice of profession is on life support. Everyone thinks that, to a greater or lesser degree. And you know what? Everyone’s probably right, to a greater or lesser degree. This game isn’t perfectly balanced and it probably never will be. It needs some work to even get to “balanced enough,” and I’m not going to say the Necro may not need a bit more work than some others but I take great issue with this defeatist, victimized attitude everyone who plays this lovely game seems to take.

If the community spent half as much effort enjoying the game for what it is as we do deflecting blame for our own shortcomings, we would all be much happier.

I enjoy playing my Necro. Do I wish she had better mobility options? Sure I do, but then again, clever use of Spectral Walk / Flesh Worm make me feel ridiculously clever. Do I wish I could duel Mesmers better as my Thief? Absolutely, but I chalk that up as something to improve about my play and move on.

I went a little ranty there for a bit and I’m sorry but I really just don’t understand why GW2 players will tolerate inflicting so much despair upon themselves. This is a fun game with eight fun professions with which to play it. Why can’t we just enjoy the game?

I changed my build to deal more condition damage after watching that video. If my healing is gonna suck then I might as well sacrifice it for more damage. >_>

I totally get where you are coming from about necromancer being versatile, and you are right, all classes are versatile, but not in the same fight. Each class must make choices about what they want to do, except the elementalist. In their builds, Elementalists choose what they want to be best at. Just because you are water specced doesn’t mean you can’t lay down great damage with fire, or crowd control with Earth. I’m not talking versatile because classes have many different builds, I’m talking versatile because they have access to many different things in the same build. No one in the game (with the distant possibility of Engineer, but even they are not on the same level as Elementalist) has the versatility at their fingertips that Elementalist does. That’s the concept of the class, after all, elemental attunements.
And using the justification that they brought a necromancer is EXACTLY like saying they brought a knife-wielder to a gunfight. Just because that dude has a knife and he’s on their side, doesn’t mean the guy with the machine gun is any less effective. But, which would most people rather have?

Ramiah.5648:

And using the justification that they brought a necromancer is EXACTLY like saying they brought a knife-wielder to a gunfight. Just because that dude has a knife and he’s on their side, doesn’t mean the guy with the machine gun is any less effective. But, which would most people rather have?

I’m partial to shanking people, but thats just me. I really wish I had a Swiss Army knife that had a gun attachment though. That would be totally cool.

Kravick.4906:

I’d bump the engineer up to tier 2 honestly. The HGH condition build is leagues better than necro/ranger at roaming. I’d also swap guardian and ele positions.
.

Was going to put in an exception for HGH Engy but i didnt for some reason >.>

Why dont this zerg simply dodge roll up there and kill these 7 people.

Saving a full endurance = 2 dodges. = you land at their feet.

Necros are one of the best classes for WvW. cya

Agreed with above. Condition necro is a top tier class for group versus group and group versus zerg.

Jiiub.7135:

Necros are one of the best classes for WvW. cya

No! no, no, no, no, no, no!

How can you possible say such a thing about a build that cannot kill siege equipment?

..and I’m not talking about siege stuff up on the wall in a far corner that’s hard to reach; I’m talking about a catapult in the middle of an open field.

“Oh hey, guys. Help me. There’s a catapult here and I need help taking it down.” “how many people are defending it?” “Well-uh.. none.. but I’m a condition necro so I cant kill it”

I’ve actually said that!!!

Ramiah.5648:

I totally get where you are coming from about necromancer being versatile, and you are right, all classes are versatile, but not in the same fight. Each class must make choices about what they want to do, except the elementalist.

Nope, even the Elementalist, albeit differently.

Every other profession gets to choose how they want to adapt to changing situations. A Necro can run S/D for midrange fights and spend a lot of time kiting in duels, then press ~ and switch to their Staff for long range fights. Eles can’t do that. They have to completely disengage from a fight before they can change their range. Such a weakness is somewhat glossed over in sPvP where you’re only ever going to be fighting short-range but I assure you it’s very relevant almost everywhere else.

Ramiah.5648:

In their builds, Elementalists choose what they want to be best at.

The Ele only really has one viable spec. You basically can’t play them without 30 in Water and at least 20 in Arcana. Anything else and you die instantly. And honestly, that spec’s damage sucks. A really good Ele can combo very quickly to give the appearance of decent damage but it’s nowhere near what a Thief or Warrior or even damage-speced Guardian can pull off. Even a Necro will output much more damage than an Ele over time. All the X/X/X/30/30 D/D Ele is good at is staying alive, and even then a good Necro can beat them (it’s just going to take forever).

Ramiah.5648:

I’m not talking versatile because classes have many different builds, I’m talking versatile because they have access to many different things in the same build.

Oh I know, but let’s take an S/D+Staff Necro with a focus on Curses and see what they have.

1. Good condition damage. Obviously.

2. Strong CC: An AoE Cripple on a low cooldown and AoE Chill at high range. Also AoE Fear. It’s only for 1 second but that’s still enough to break a whole group of stompers from 1200 units way. Ignores Blocks, too. You even have instant single-target fear at the ready at all times.

3. Debuffing: An AoE Weakness on a moderate cripple. You can seriously hurt an enemy group’s damage if you use this right. Blinds, plus control over conditions. Extremely strong boon stripping. You can re-apply boons but not if your team spikes them down properly. It’s especially hilarious to pop Corrupt Boon on a Guardian with Stability who’s wading through a zerg thinking he’s all invincible and then boom, instantly on the ground.

4. Some ok burst with Feast of Corruption. Your direct damage isn’t actually all that terrible with this build since you have so much Precision.

5. Support: Near-perma Regen in an AoE for your team (including minions) from 1200 range. If you trait for it, you can turn Death Shroud 4 into a pretty good AoE heal for your team, too. AoE condition transfer at high range. Really strong if used at the right time.

6. Some tankiness with Death Shroud, if used to block big shots. If Life Siphoning had any sort of Healing Power coefficient (which it totally should), I think you’d see this strength come into play a lot more than it currently does.

Now obviously I’m not saying that beats the Ele in terms of versatility, but that’s still six strong things a single Necro build can be good at. Condition damage, Direct Damage, CC, enemy debuffing, support, and tankiness (for a light-armor class). I like playing my Ele for all the options I have in fights, but I also like playing my Necro for the brutal “F you” buttons she has. Trying to out-condition my team? Screw that, Putrid Mark. Oh that’s cute, the enemy Commander is trying to lead his zerg forward with a bajillion boons. There, not so uppity now, are you? Here, now your friends can share your misfortune. Also, Minion, charge him down!

Ramiah.5648:

And using the justification that they brought a necromancer is EXACTLY like saying they brought a knife-wielder to a gunfight.

Then maybe this video is evidence that sometimes, a knife is exactly what you want to bring to a gunfight. Because they brought one. So you can’t use that video as evidence that no one would bring a Necro on purpose. Because they brought one.

Ezeriel.9574:

No! no, no, no, no, no, no!

How can you possible say such a thing about a build that cannot kill siege equipment?

..and I’m not talking about siege stuff up on the wall in a far corner that’s hard to reach; I’m talking about a catapult in the middle of an open field.

“Oh hey, guys. Help me. There’s a catapult here and I need help taking it down.” “how many people are defending it?” “Well-uh.. none.. but I’m a condition necro so I cant kill it”

I’ve actually said that!!!

So, like all condition specs, they have a weakness. Killing siege is what you have the proletariat professions for. Though Life Transfer and Life Blast actually deal pretty decent damage against siege. I once saw a Commander try to organize a bunch of Necros to come and use Life Transfer on a wall all at once while speced with Transfusion. It ended up not coming together because he was trying to direct pugs and when has that ever worked (relax, pugs, I’m one too ), but can you imagine an enemy team trying to push back a siege team that had 5 or six coordinated Necros with heavy investment in Blood and Soul Reaping (for Foot in the Grave) there to keep blasting the wall with Life Transfer? Good luck with that.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ramiah.5648:

I totally get where you are coming from about necromancer being versatile, and you are right, all classes are versatile, but not in the same fight. Each class must make choices about what they want to do, except the elementalist.

Nope, even the Elementalist, albeit differently.

Every other profession gets to choose how they want to adapt to changing situations. A Necro can run S/D for midrange fights and spend a lot of time kiting in duels, then press ~ and switch to their Staff for long range fights. Eles can’t do that. They have to completely disengage from a fight before they can change their range. Such a weakness is somewhat glossed over in sPvP where you’re only ever going to be fighting short-range but I assure you it’s very relevant almost everywhere else.

Ramiah.5648:

In their builds, Elementalists choose what they want to be best at.

The Ele only really has one viable spec. You basically can’t play them without 30 in Water and at least 20 in Arcana. Anything else and you die instantly. And honestly, that spec’s damage sucks. A really good Ele can combo very quickly to give the appearance of decent damage but it’s nowhere near what a Thief or Warrior or even damage-speced Guardian can pull off. Even a Necro will output much more damage than an Ele over time. All the X/X/X/30/30 D/D Ele is good at is staying alive, and even then a good Necro can beat them (it’s just going to take forever).

Ramiah.5648:

I’m not talking versatile because classes have many different builds, I’m talking versatile because they have access to many different things in the same build.

Oh I know, but let’s take an S/D+Staff Necro with a focus on Curses and see what they have.

1. Good condition damage. Obviously.

2. Strong CC: An AoE Cripple on a low cooldown and AoE Chill at high range. Also AoE Fear. It’s only for 1 second but that’s still enough to break a whole group of stompers from 1200 units way. Ignores Blocks, too. You even have instant single-target fear at the ready at all times.

3. Debuffing: An AoE Weakness on a moderate cripple. You can seriously hurt an enemy group’s damage if you use this right. Blinds, plus control over conditions. Extremely strong boon stripping. You can re-apply boons but not if your team spikes them down properly. It’s especially hilarious to pop Corrupt Boon on a Guardian with Stability who’s wading through a zerg thinking he’s all invincible and then boom, instantly on the ground.

4. Some ok burst with Feast of Corruption. Your direct damage isn’t actually all that terrible with this build since you have so much Precision.

5. Support: Near-perma Regen in an AoE for your team (including minions) from 1200 range. If you trait for it, you can turn Death Shroud 4 into a pretty good AoE heal for your team, too. AoE condition transfer at high range. Really strong if used at the right time.

6. Some tankiness with Death Shroud, if used to block big shots. If Life Siphoning had any sort of Healing Power coefficient (which it totally should), I think you’d see this strength come into play a lot more than it currently does.

Now obviously I’m not saying that beats the Ele in terms of versatility, but that’s still six strong things a single Necro build can be good at. Condition damage, Direct Damage, CC, enemy debuffing, support, and tankiness (for a light-armor class). I like playing my Ele for all the options I have in fights, but I also like playing my Necro for the brutal “F you” buttons she has. Trying to out-condition my team? Screw that, Putrid Mark. Oh that’s cute, the enemy Commander is trying to lead his zerg forward with a bajillion boons. There, not so uppity now, are you? Here, now your friends can share your misfortune. Also, Minion, charge him down!

Ramiah.5648:

And using the justification that they brought a necromancer is EXACTLY like saying they brought a knife-wielder to a gunfight.

Then maybe this video is evidence that sometimes, a knife is exactly what you want to bring to a gunfight. Because they brought one. So you can’t use that video as evidence that no one would bring a Necro on purpose. Because they brought one.

1) In wvw zerg fights an ele would always use staff. Only the most crazy eles would use dagger. So that weapon switching problem is non-existent for them. They don’t need it. They just need to switch the elements at any time to be effective.

To be continued…

2) No one experienced in wvw would run glass cannon, and that takes into account both traits and equipments. PVT is standard equipment in wvw for good reason. So once again that’s a non-factor. And PVT eles damage doesn’t suck, no matter how hard you try to claim it is.

You have to understand that a team support healing necro (such as myself) need to spent trait points into blood magic, which doesn’t help my damage at all. How is that any “better” than an ele putting trait points into water magic? It isn’t.

3) This post is so wrong. Nearly every point you made is false information. For starters, the second that you switch weapon you just earned yourself 10 second cooldown on all your other skills. And if you are already in a zerg fight, there is zero reason to switch out of your staff. This is specially true for a conditionmancer. Mark of Blood > every single skill in your scepter/dagger combo.

Feast of Corruption? Sorry I LOLed. You seriously going to say this skill is great on a conditionmancer in wvw? (yes, because you said “scepter/dagger is awesome condition damage, obviously.”) You do know that Feast of Corruption is the single most useless skill in the whole game right? And that applies to even a powermancer.

Corrupt Boon is the another useless skill in wvw. Look it is 60vs60. The lag is crazy. You are trying to follow your commander and dodging out of enemy AoEs. So you are going to find that single dude that has a ton of boons on him, cast corrupt boon? Fine let’s say you pull this feat off. What’s your prize? Nothing! It is 60vs60. You are not helping your zerg at all.

Death shroud tanking is not sustainable. Not in 1v1, so nevermind 7vs50+. On the other hand, ele’s mix of teleportation and healing is sustainable.

I am sorry, and I do mean it. But which tier of wvw do you play in? And how often do you actually play a necro in wvw. It just seems a lot of the defenders of necromancers either plays in very low tier wvw, or doesn’t play necro in wvw much at all.

4) You have to understand that I still think necro is a decent class to play. However it is becoming obvious to me that the skill ceiling of the necro is much lower than that of other classes. Many people here seems very confused about what skill ceiling actually is.

Look: When is the last time you seen a necro 1 vs 8 noobs? When is the last time you seen a necro in level 50 Fractal?

Skill ceiling is not how hard it is to learn a profession. That is called the learning curve. Skill ceiling is how much you can potentially achieve with a profession. And the necro is very low in skill celling.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Poxheart.2845:

Second is the comments pointing that a necromancer was involved in the fight, so necromancers must have something to offer, but if you pay attention to the necromancer, you’ll see that he gets downed/dies a few times and is essentially a non factor.

She’s far from the only one to go down, nor does she really spend all that much time down, all things considered. Even the viewpoint Ele goes down a few times, though he’s mostly saved by lucky instant rallies.

Yep, other defenders did drop during the fight.

Watch the video again & pay attention to the necromancer (Powerz). At one point you hear him say, “I’m going to drop wells – Oh kitten I’m down.” At another point he says, “I’m really squishy; one whirlwind took me out.” Aside from using Signet of Undeath a couple of times and Plague at the end as the attackers pushed up the ramp, it didn’t seem like he was contributing much to the defense. On the other hand, once they lost the elementalist (Hman?) that was updrafting & “earth fiving” the enemy, they pretty much lost the tower. Swap the necromancer out for another elementalist and they probably would’ve held long enough for him to get back.