EverythingOP
Thoughts on the new "Rise!"
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My thoughts after trying this out:
- Delay in minion response which causes the buff to be delayed in turn. For a 40s cooldown, possibly add in a 1s Knockdown for each target struck. Thematically, it will be similar to the Hero Point in Kessex Hills after eating the weird meat that spawns a Jagged Horror from you and knocks you down. It would also give the Shout immediate potency as the damage is a minor convenience for Sigil procs (at best).
- Minions should apply the buff without needing to attack.
- Minion health degeneration should be excluded as they are rather squishy. Place a cap of 5 Shambling Horrors active at any given time could keep this in check.
- Minion needs a different character model. (Optional)
PET PRECISION & DPS TESTS -OUTDATED-
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
In an ideal situation while testing them they died instantly on a full minion master build. I see no advantage to summoning them what so ever. In fact, don’t take reaper for a mm build. You’ll get more utility from your other specializations.
I would have to disagree, Lily. It’s pretty good on a MM build. You just have to recognize that they are disposable. Last night I was deleting my target in teamfights because they would all nova on the same person. Mesmers were a riot to fight and regular MM’s stood no chance.
I would have to disagree, Lily. It’s pretty good on a MM build. You just have to recognize that they are disposable. Last night I was deleting my target in teamfights because they would all nova on the same person. Mesmers were a riot to fight and regular MM’s stood no chance.
So it’s a useful skill on a single format, on a specific build tailored around them.
Did the necromancer really need more niche skills?
Come on, the whole problem with the class is it needs more universally applicable skills and pets/minions in this game should have AoE avoidance or at the very least melee cleave swings from bosses and their AoE shouldn’t affect them.
I would have to disagree, Lily. It’s pretty good on a MM build. You just have to recognize that they are disposable. Last night I was deleting my target in teamfights because they would all nova on the same person. Mesmers were a riot to fight and regular MM’s stood no chance.
So it’s a useful skill on a single format, on a specific build tailored around them.
Did the necromancer really need more niche skills?
Come on, the whole problem with the class is it needs more universally applicable skills and pets/minions in this game should have AoE avoidance or at the very least melee cleave swings from bosses and their AoE shouldn’t affect them.
PvE and PvP are hardly “niche scenarios.” In both, the skill is useful. PvE, you get more DPS (5 of them will actually hit decently hard) or more defense for a shorter period. In PvP, you get more defense primarily, but that comes in a few ways.
In 1v1’s, you usually only get one horror, but taking half damage in a duel is huge. In teamfights, the shamblers eat up the AoE cap entirely (consider that non-piercing projectiles and PBAoE’s from your target essentially have no effect on teammates then) and you still get the half damage effect for at least a few seconds.
And this is untraited. MM builds get quite a lot more mileage out of them through sheer quantity.
In PvE you won’t use them. I don’t know if you’ve ever done a fractal 50 or are at that reward level but each mob there cleaves for 6k+ damage. Bosses cleave for as hard as 10k+
They’ll be dead in less than a few seconds.
In PvE you won’t use them. I don’t know if you’ve ever done a fractal 50 or are at that reward level but each mob there cleaves for 6k+ damage. Bosses cleave for as hard as 10k+
They’ll be dead in less than a few seconds.
In which case they still saved you a heal skill’s worth of damage. Also the possibility that they distracted the mob from hitting you or your teammates at all.
In PvE you won’t use them. I don’t know if you’ve ever done a fractal 50 or are at that reward level but each mob there cleaves for 6k+ damage. Bosses cleave for as hard as 10k+
They’ll be dead in less than a few seconds.
In which case they still saved you a heal skill’s worth of damage. Also the possibility that they distracted the mob from hitting you or your teammates at all.
No, they didn’t. You don’t seem to understand how cleaves work in PvE. They don’t have a target limit, they hit everybody in range.
They distracted no mobs, the cleaves hit your party since you are all in melee range, and all the mob autoattacks are cleaves. Much like how mesmer clones don’t save you damage in PvE.
By now it’s clear to me you haven’t done fractal 50.
In PvE you won’t use them. I don’t know if you’ve ever done a fractal 50 or are at that reward level but each mob there cleaves for 6k+ damage. Bosses cleave for as hard as 10k+
They’ll be dead in less than a few seconds.
In which case they still saved you a heal skill’s worth of damage. Also the possibility that they distracted the mob from hitting you or your teammates at all.
No, they didn’t. You don’t seem to understand how cleaves work in PvE. They don’t have a target limit, they hit everybody in range.
They distracted no mobs, the cleaves hit your party since you are all in melee range, and all the mob autoattacks are cleaves. Much like how mesmer clones don’t save you damage in PvE.
By now it’s clear to me you haven’t done fractal 50.
You’re right, I haven’t. And if I did, I wouldn’t be standing in the same spot as my minions.
Cleave works the same in PvE as it does in PvP and WvW: you don’t get cleaved when behind your target. Minions rush the target and you kite around.
Walah, minions get cleaved and you took nothing. If any of them landed a hit (one probably did), then the next hit deals half damage to you, which is a heal skill’s worth of damage it saved you from on that effect alone.
Even if you’re stupid and did get cleaved with your minions, you still saved yourself an easy 5k damage due to blood bond.
Oh good lord, kiting mobs behind your minions you don’t play organized PvE at all.
Oh good lord, kiting mobs behind your minions you don’t play organized PvE at all.
Minions run straight at mobs. You walk behind mobs. You are now immune to cleave that would go to minions.
It’s not like this is rocket science. Only place it doesn’t work is the buttons on dredge fractal.
Oh good lord, kiting mobs behind your minions you don’t play organized PvE at all.
Minions run straight at mobs. You walk behind mobs. You are now immune to cleave that would go to minions.
Champion etin uses smash: all your minions dead, you still take damage.
EverythingOP
Oh good lord, kiting mobs behind your minions you don’t play organized PvE at all.
Minions run straight at mobs. You walk behind mobs. You are now immune to cleave that would go to minions.
Champion etin uses smash: all your minions dead, you still take damage.
So, there is the occasional situation where it isn’t good to use. The presence of a small number of such situations means the entire skill is totally niche and overall worthless?
Still, that smash that wiped your minions and hit you still only did half damage to you, so the skill had some use.
All I have been saying is that the skill is not niche and can be used effectively in a large number of areas. For most of Fractals even, it’s fine, even untraited.
The best skill ever? No, but it’s useful.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
I think Rise! minions could use more HP, and I’m not sure that the degeneration is necessary since any AoE attacks “double up” against them, dealing both the full damage to the minions and the half damage they absorb. Also really don’t think the minions should have to attack to apply it, its kind of a weird requirement since they already take the damage, just have them apply it passively until they die.
I think Rise! minions could use more HP, and I’m not sure that the degeneration is necessary since any AoE attacks “double up” against them, dealing both the full damage to the minions and the half damage they absorb. Also really don’t think the minions should have to attack to apply it, its kind of a weird requirement since they already take the damage, just have them apply it passively until they die.
Honestly dark bond would serve better on Flesh Golem than these paper thin minions. Its oxymoronic.
I appreciate Robert’s work on this but it was a hit and miss.
In PvE you won’t use them. I don’t know if you’ve ever done a fractal 50 or are at that reward level but each mob there cleaves for 6k+ damage. Bosses cleave for as hard as 10k+
They’ll be dead in less than a few seconds.
In which case they still saved you a heal skill’s worth of damage. Also the possibility that they distracted the mob from hitting you or your teammates at all.
No, they didn’t. You don’t seem to understand how cleaves work in PvE. They don’t have a target limit, they hit everybody in range.
They distracted no mobs, the cleaves hit your party since you are all in melee range, and all the mob autoattacks are cleaves. Much like how mesmer clones don’t save you damage in PvE.
By now it’s clear to me you haven’t done fractal 50.
You’re right, I haven’t. And if I did, I wouldn’t be standing in the same spot as my minions.
Cleave works the same in PvE as it does in PvP and WvW: you don’t get cleaved when behind your target. Minions rush the target and you kite around.
Walah, minions get cleaved and you took nothing. If any of them landed a hit (one probably did), then the next hit deals half damage to you, which is a heal skill’s worth of damage it saved you from on that effect alone.
Even if you’re stupid and did get cleaved with your minions, you still saved yourself an easy 5k damage due to blood bond.
That’s not worth a utility slot in high-level pve. It’d be better to get something like wells and a stun break than a chance at 5k dmg mitigation. Let’s not forget you’re smart enough to dodge while the horrors are defenseless against any attack in their direction.
i am not even noticing it.
Its so weak, I cant notice.
I think most problems with this skill come from the inherent problems of minions, not the skill itself : Being blown up in seconds in AOE attacks, not having any way of avoiding stuff ,getting hit twice by AE with Blood Bond.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
Personal though on the new “rise” :
- Instant shout ! yeah good!
- lot of direct damage, could be lower (Really think that atm it’s to much)
- Shambling horror? Whatever, they ain’t gamebreaking even when they work. I think it’s perfect as an additionnal thing if you happen to run death nova, otherwise the impact is minimal.
So yeah, the shout seem in a good shape and will probably end up even better with a bit of balancing around the damage area and minion responsivness. (activating the damage absorbtion without having the minion attacking would just be perfect)
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
I think Rise! has good potential for tanking and supplemental damage. But shambling horror either need to be more spammable or a guarantee they won’t die in 5 seconds flat under heavy AoE or 1 boss attack.
Maybe if they die faster than X seconds they should rise up again just once?
(edited by Charblaze.6958)
I am thinking Rise! may replace the Shadow Fiend in my MM build. In a crowd, the extra Putrid Explosions will do more than the black balloon.
Bone Fiend will, of course, remain on the utility bar for its ranged damage and immobilize. Bone Minions are part of the Putrid Explosion mess so they stay, too. Flesh Wurm is for special situations with its strong attack, port, and inherent stability.
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