Guild Wars 2

As a necromancer main, I’m sad to see so many other necromancers that clearly can’t count.
The change to Deahtly Chill is not a nerf at all, infact it’s stronger in most situations and I’ll explain.

First, let’s do a little math.

This was the formula behind chill damage and the bleed formula.
Chill: (0,255 x condi dmg) + 202
Bleed: (0,06 x condi dmg) + 22

This means that with 1000 condition damage, you would do the following damage per second:
Chill: 457
Bleed: 82

Seems pretty crappy right? Looks like a big nerf.
Except that chill damage did not stack, and bleed does stack.

Which means that chill damage in this case would stay fixed at 457 dmg per second.
And with the changes to the Deathly Chill trait, it is a lot easier to stack bleed because applying chill effects did not actually reduce, which is now converted to bleed.
So it would be wise to not compare the damage to 1 bleed stack, but more likely to 10.

And then the damage looks like this:
Chill: (0,255 × 1000) + 202 = 457 per second
Bleed: ((0,06 × 1000) + 22) x 10 = 820 per second

Basically, given the time to stack atleast ~6 bleed effects which is nothing right now, you will deal more condition damage with bleed than you would with chill, especailly in PvE since the important things like bosses have high HP, thus more time to stack.

I hope that settles it, and to the people worrying that bleed is easier cleansed than chill.. I’d really like to know what magic that is because I don’t see how it’s easier to remove bleed effects when you apply just as much chill as before while actually applying more bleed, so more conditions in total.
Plus, chill did not have damage multipliers, only duration increasers. Try Rune of the Krait maybe and you’ll be suprised how much bleed damage you can do in PvP now.

its more that some people feel they have better grand masters to take then this trait (which really aint much better if ya ask me)

Yep most decent people will block, invuln, evade, kite, los and then cleanse when pressure starts stacking up. Chill dmg gave our condi extra burst. Sure it needed dialed back but turning us back into bleed stackers seems harsh.

Pve could be a different story. Not sure it’s really efficient, and seems like a different trait line would be better, but I don’t pve much so I’m probably clueless.

Well, that was pretty elegant nerf. Amount of bleeds condi necro can stack in PVE with this is nice. And good riddance to Chill capping on bosses. But in PVP it’s nerf indeed.

Yay! They didn’t kitten it up.

I would say it’s more like 4 stacks of bleeds for pvp with suffer and chilled to the bone, if we’re still using the same build as last season – chill shoutmancer.
While I see the point about bleeds being more consistent dmg over chill, it was a really interesting unique class mechanic. I wish they would have kept it as a mechanic rather than just pushing it into a lackluster old mechanic that just applies more bleeds.

kakumbien.8047:

Sun Lian.4075:

Bhawb.7408:

I mean sure, in a situation where you had pitiful condition damage and are somehow fighting a complete moron who gets hit ten times by chilling effects and doesn’t remove them, its better.

In any real PvP/WvW situation, its a nerf. Take your head out of your unrealistic theoretical math, which has screwed us over since pre-launch, and realize that no living player, not even the most mentally handicapped Turret Engi, is going to allow you to hit them 5 times with chill every 8-16 seconds, which is what you need to do to match pre-nerf damage. In any PvP situation where this would be a buff, the person you’re playing against is so bad at the game you don’t need any help.

The only time it being not-chill is good is stacking PvE, and even then it should have been high intensity low duration.

This is what I don’t get,

not even the most mentally handicapped Turret Engi, is going to allow you to hit them 5 times with chill every 8-16 seconds, which is what you need to do to match pre-nerf damage.

What does this change have to do with enemies evading your chill effects?
If they evade chill effects, they did that before the change aswell.. so how is it that you now suddenly “need” chill damage to match your previous damage, whatever that may be but apparently it can’t be a lot since people avoid chill effects in your example.
Nobody avoids more chill effects now, there’s nothing different there.

And even so, it’s easy to get atleast 6 stacks of bleed on an enemy, for example with ice field + soul spiral. Because a lot of necro skills hit more than once.

Sun lion , I don’t wanna break your heart but i think you should be new in game or not a core pvp player. Even my 12 years old brother said that “wtf is wrong with devs , that is so huuuuge” when he saw the deathly chill nerf . Nerf was necessary . BUT killing a trait and a condi class ?

also now reaper have no grand master trait the 3 of them are terrible now

kakumbien.8047:

Sun Lian.4075:

Bhawb.7408:

I mean sure, in a situation where you had pitiful condition damage and are somehow fighting a complete moron who gets hit ten times by chilling effects and doesn’t remove them, its better.

In any real PvP/WvW situation, its a nerf. Take your head out of your unrealistic theoretical math, which has screwed us over since pre-launch, and realize that no living player, not even the most mentally handicapped Turret Engi, is going to allow you to hit them 5 times with chill every 8-16 seconds, which is what you need to do to match pre-nerf damage. In any PvP situation where this would be a buff, the person you’re playing against is so bad at the game you don’t need any help.

The only time it being not-chill is good is stacking PvE, and even then it should have been high intensity low duration.

This is what I don’t get,

not even the most mentally handicapped Turret Engi, is going to allow you to hit them 5 times with chill every 8-16 seconds, which is what you need to do to match pre-nerf damage.

What does this change have to do with enemies evading your chill effects?
If they evade chill effects, they did that before the change aswell.. so how is it that you now suddenly “need” chill damage to match your previous damage, whatever that may be but apparently it can’t be a lot since people avoid chill effects in your example.
Nobody avoids more chill effects now, there’s nothing different there.

And even so, it’s easy to get atleast 6 stacks of bleed on an enemy, for example with ice field + soul spiral. Because a lot of necro skills hit more than once.

Sun lion , I don’t wanna break your heart but i think you should be new in game or not a core pvp player. Even my 12 years old brother said that “wtf is wrong with devs , that is so huuuuge” when he saw the deathly chill nerf . Nerf was necessary . BUT killing a trait and a condi class ?

Nope.

https://gyazo.com/430369e5cc14c19e9ff9240258f1b005

Sun, what you’re missing is that you might stack 20 stacks of bleed on someone, but now that is just one condition that is hurting to cleanse instead of 2.

So yes, it was a nerf, but it was 100% necessary because the damage before was too strong and it required enemies to be able to clear massive amounts of conditions that no class really could.

@Sun Lian, because pre-nerf, ONE chill application gave full damage for its full duration. Now, you need to maintain at least 5 bleeds on the target from Deathly Chill to match the damage, meaning you are required to hit them with at least 5 chills every 8-16 seconds (depending on bleed durations). I think its pretty obvious that hitting people 5 times is harder than hitting them once or twice (since chills will probably be a bit shorter).

Ice Field + Soul Spiral is exactly what I mean by brain dead enemy. The first part has a 1.25s cast time, meaning you can easily avoid the effect and not be in the field. The second part has a 3s channel time, and relies on whirl finishers (extremely unreliable) to stack bleeds. For example, if the enemy isn’t standing in your field, they’ll only get 2-4 bleeds from that combo, which will take kitten and put two abilities on a 30s CD.

Or you could AA them with scepter and do more damage from 900 range.

How hard do you think it is to stack bleeds?

I already tested in a 1v1 with an engi that knows what he’s doing and he says the same, it’s not really a damage nerf but you just might need a bit different build or skill rotation in order to make sure that you stack enough bleeds.

I get the issue that before the change, chill would instantly do the same dmg output compared to what bleed would do with ~6 stacks, but you can do that in 2 seconds..

Let’s take a timespan of 6 seconds, and only casting 3 skills.
https://gyazo.com/21ed67eff5ed01f05fe7d03fa4576c6f

13 stacks at the end, right? Even if an enemy would remove or evade 5 bleed stacks somewhere during that time, the damage would still be same as chill would be in this case.
My condi dmg is 1355 there, chill would deal almost 3.3k damage in 6 seconds and bleed does 3.8k. With 5 less stacks it would almost be 3.3k as well.

And this is a piece of cake if you time it right.. not just with this combo. Of course it’s harder in 1v1 but PvP in GW2 will always be a team game.
The engi I tried 1v1 with said that with right timing, I could keep up a high amount of stacks like 13 here at the end for approx 2 seconds, which means 6.5k bleed dmg in total while chill would deal 4.4k dmg.
And maybe that won’t happen a lot in real PvP, but it can and will happen and so I think the damage is really not that different.

Or they dodge once and that entire combo misses and you’re out two 30s CD skills and then you’ll never hit with 5 chills every 8-16s to keep up the same damage. Even if you play really well and land it, the damage you did in that clip was pitiful, 11 poison and 13 bleed is nothing for 6 seconds of work.

Note that the 5-6 have to all be from chill, any bleeds you do with anything that don’t involve chill are completely irrelevant to the DC change. You’re really stuck on that RS 5→4 combo, but not only is that a really specific and unrealistic combo, after it is done you still need to have 10-12 chills on your kit to sustain the damage until that combo is back up, which you can’t have.

To everyone trying to say that the changes werent a nerf PvP wise…

It was a nerf. Point.

Actually how much time do you need to hit your enemy with chill to obtin that condition damage?
10 times? Nice, but you can’t hit the enemy 10 times with chill, unless your enemy is the training dummy. Seriously.

Example of a chain to inflict enough stacks of bleed with chill:
2 Chill by shouts (utility+elite)
1 chill from RS5
6 chill from Rs4 if you do a combo with the ice field (no more 11 hits, now it’s capped at 6)
2 by signets (weapon swap and a lucky hit at 30% chance)
1 by staff skill 3

Now you have spent all your chill skills only to stack 12 stacks of bleed on your enemy, dealing barely bad conditions damage and losing all your time following a low damage conditions.

No, in PvP that’s a really huge nerf to the necromancer condition damage.

Silv.9207:

Actually how much time do you need to hit your enemy with chill to obtin that condition damage?
10 times? Nice, but you can’t hit the enemy 10 times with chill, unless your enemy is the training dummy. Seriously.

Example of a chain to inflict enough stacks of bleed with chill:
2 Chill by shouts (utility+elite)
1 chill from RS5
6 chill from Rs4 if you do a combo with the ice field (no more 11 hits, now it’s capped at 6)
2 by signets (weapon swap and a lucky hit at 30% chance)
1 by staff skill 3

Now you have spent all your chill skills only to stack 12 stacks of bleed on your enemy, dealing barely bad conditions damage and losing all your time following a low damage conditions.

No, in PvP that’s a really huge nerf to the necromancer condition damage.

addition you have to play defence they are not gonna let you use your combos so easy
and with a nerf to infuse terror cc is more deadly

Bhawb.7408:

Or they dodge once and that entire combo misses and you’re out two 30s CD skills and then you’ll never hit with 5 chills every 8-16s to keep up the same damage. Even if you play really well and land it, the damage you did in that clip was pitiful, 11 poison and 13 bleed is nothing for 6 seconds of work.

Note that the 5-6 have to all be from chill, any bleeds you do with anything that don’t involve chill are completely irrelevant to the DC change. You’re really stuck on that RS 5->4 combo, but not only is that a really specific and unrealistic combo, after it is done you still need to have 10-12 chills on your kit to sustain the damage until that combo is back up, which you can’t have.

You keep mentioning dodging, but I don’t get why that’s relevant. The chill damage might’ve been higher from start, so it might feel like you have to hit less but chill also lasts shorter which means you had to apply it more to keep the damage up..

People don’t dodge more chill effects than before, and because bleed lasts longer you have to take into account that when you do hit your skills that apply chill and thus bleed, it now makes up for the times when people evade it.

Of course, then you got the whole doomsday scenario where all your bleed stacks are instantly cleansed but as I said before.. there’s really nothing different there than with chill dmg.

And that combo is not the only thing that can apply that amount of stacks, you can also convert blind to chill and I didn’t even use scepter there, it’s really not that hard.
I know scepter skills are not chill and so it doesn’t immediately make sense to count that in, but it kinda does because bleed is simply not that easy as chill, you just had to apply it once and apply it again when duration ends, bleed takes a bit more work to so of course you change your build now and try to keep up as many stacks as possible, cause that’s what it’s about.

Sun Lian.4075:

Bhawb.7408:

Or they dodge once and that entire combo misses and you’re out two 30s CD skills and then you’ll never hit with 5 chills every 8-16s to keep up the same damage. Even if you play really well and land it, the damage you did in that clip was pitiful, 11 poison and 13 bleed is nothing for 6 seconds of work.

Note that the 5-6 have to all be from chill, any bleeds you do with anything that don’t involve chill are completely irrelevant to the DC change. You’re really stuck on that RS 5->4 combo, but not only is that a really specific and unrealistic combo, after it is done you still need to have 10-12 chills on your kit to sustain the damage until that combo is back up, which you can’t have.

You keep mentioning dodging, but I don’t get why that’s relevant. The chill damage might’ve been higher from start, so it might feel like you have to hit less but chill also lasts shorter which means you had to apply it more to keep the damage up..

People don’t dodge more chill effects than before, and because bleed lasts longer you have to take into account that when you do hit your skills that apply chill and thus bleed, it now makes up for the times when people evade it.

Of course, then you got the whole doomsday scenario where all your bleed stacks are instantly cleansed but as I said before.. there’s really nothing different there than with chill dmg.

And that combo is not the only thing that can apply that amount of stacks, you can also convert blind to chill and I didn’t even use scepter there, it’s really not that hard.
I know scepter skills are not chill and so it doesn’t immediately make sense to count that in, but it kinda does because bleed is simply not that easy as chill, you just had to apply it once and apply it again when duration ends, bleed takes a bit more work to so of course you change your build now and try to keep up as many stacks as possible, cause that’s what it’s about.

Ofcourse there is a difference in cleansing. Think about it for a second. If you hit one 5s chill Pre nerf you get 5x~600 dmg. Fine that is cleansed. Then you hit another chill for lets say 4s to again get that 4×600. You get this from 2 skills that hit. You don’t have the ramp up time of the post nerd where you need to spend either Suffer+sigil+Staff 3+5 for the same amount of damage for 8s and when it’s cleansed your wasted 4 important cd’s. The DC nerf would have been maybe ok’ish if they didn’t gut the chill aplication and durations also.

There is no way in pvp that DC deals the same damage as it did pre patch. And it is a shame since mesmers and revs are now running free.

Sun Lian.4075:

….Try Rune of the Krait maybe and you’ll be suprised how much bleed damage you can do in PvP now.

Stupidity summed up. The end.

Thinking about it, in this meta of condi cleanse (mesmers and Eles) having 1 condition that can chain into 2 other condition is still quite cool. Remember, Fear applies chill which then applies Vuln and Bleed. That’s 4 condis for the price of 1 skill. CRAZY!

I just wish I could use base Necro to make it worthwhile.

Dirame.8521:

Thinking about it, in this meta of condi cleanse (mesmers and Eles) having 1 condition that can chain into 2 other condition is still quite cool. Remember, Fear applies chill which then applies Vuln and Bleed. That’s 4 condis for the price of 1 skill. CRAZY!

I just wish I could use base Necro to make it worthwhile.

Do you work at teleshop ?
Youre selling a " 1x bleed stack grandmaster" as " CRAZY"

What you are missing in your analysis, and the analysis of anyone who thinks this is at all a good change is that yes, they stack, but the point of the chill damage was to provide a bit of front loaded damage instead of damage that relies on the target not cleansing, blocking, dodging or dying for 8-16 seconds.

This change completely misses that point.

Also, yay. More. Bleed. Stacks. Never mind anything interesting like torment or hell, burning, (burning cold, it’s a rather common theme in fantasy).

It’s not realistic to stack 5 fresh chills every 8 or so seconds (in pvp) to even break even, let alone the lack of up-front condition damage lost, giving far more time to clear it before it becomes problematic. This was the right DIRECTION for PvE, though it still underperforms, don’t pretend this is done awesome new buff because no, you’re not stacking 10+ chills every 8 seconds, especially not reliably.

Do the actual math and realistic scenarios rather than some silly “you can do 10 chills!” logic, it’s just not sufficient.

That said, instead of buffing the bleed stacks directly (unless they wanted to bump it to 10 seconds or 2 bleed for 5 seconds, both would be greatly appreciated though I personally prefer torment to bleeds), I read a nice suggestion earlier, having your conditions do increased damage to targets with chill on them. That’d be a great way to handle it to encourage keeping chills up.

I am actually curious how this will interact with +Bleed duration effects, but to dress it up as not being a nerf seems a little silly to me.

I can’t wait for the next tournament, because there is gonna be a reaper in the finals who is using DC to great effect, and I’m gonna laugh my kitten off at all the back-pedaling that’s gonna happen in these forums…

DC doesn’t have great effect so it’s not really possible in current form unless you can find someone that will let you land shroud combo every time it’s off cooldown. Bit like blighter’s boon actually. Looks like it need a few other traits just to try and prop it up.

bearshaman.3421:

I can’t wait for the next tournament, because there is gonna be a reaper in the finals who is using DC to great effect, and I’m gonna laugh my kitten off at all the back-pedaling that’s gonna happen in these forums…

You want to put money where your mouth is? I guarantee you no necro will be using DC to great effect in the next tournament. Noscoc, leeto, bhawb have already stated how crap the trait is. I’m also a necro who has hit legend twice in Spvp and I can tell you it’s a crap trait.

You people that say its unrealistic to stack so many bleeds and that the math is all wrong in real PvP.. I don’t think you actually tried to work out a bleed build with DC.

It’s too easy to just think “bleed needs to be stacked and theres no way it matches to chill damage with all skills that apply chill”. Of course this is true, if you can’t stack bleeds and if you don’t make your bleeds stronger.

But the good thing is you can stack a lot of bleeds, of course you have to change your build a bit but what’s bad about that.. the DC trait now synergizes with different traits, work something out and try it.
Don’t compare chill and bleed damage with the same build, that’s stupid.

Becouse Bleeds and DC serve different purposes. Chill was “burst” condi, not overly impressive on long periods, but without any ramp-up time, giving out 1k when everything else was sitting at 100 at best. Bleed, is, well, bleed. You cast it, you get something meaningful in return 5-10 seconds later.

Wintermute.5408:

Becouse Bleeds and DC serve different purposes. Chill was “burst” condi, not overly impressive on long periods, but without any ramp-up time, giving out 1k when everything else was sitting at 100 at best. Bleed, is, well, bleed. You cast it, you get something meaningful in return 5-10 seconds later.

Yes it was for brust now we cant do that

First off let me say that I too think that this is a harsh nerf, yet probably in a different way than most.

I have no problem with drawing the damage chill did from elsewhere and be it only Dhuumfire. With the right build I am certain you can deal just as much damage as before, but here is my gripe:

You can’t gain more survivability and handicap your opponent in the same way as before. I am not sure if you were aware, but bleeds don’t slow your opponent, they don’t prolongue their cooldowns and they don’t grant you 10% less damage taken. That’s a huge nerf for Reapers and will – in my opinion – make for base necro backliners as the new go to build and maybe even remove necro from the meta pool.

Flumek.9043:

Dirame.8521:

Thinking about it, in this meta of condi cleanse (mesmers and Eles) having 1 condition that can chain into 2 other condition is still quite cool. Remember, Fear applies chill which then applies Vuln and Bleed. That’s 4 condis for the price of 1 skill. CRAZY!

I just wish I could use base Necro to make it worthwhile.

Do you work at teleshop ?
Youre selling a " 1x bleed stack grandmaster" as " CRAZY"

Maybe I am actually but I think the difference between me and some people in this thread is, I’m a lot more willing to look for benefits first. If you take one trait on it’s own, and don’t look at how it combines with the rest of the traits, how can you tell if that trait is good or bad?

The Necro can stack tons of bleeds without thinking about it, that’s all well and good but being able to COVER IMPORTANT CONDITIONS with 1 stack of bleed? That’s extremely valuable. Especially when the skill you’re using applies 2 other conditions on use.

MisterWonka.8796:

First off let me say that I too think that this is a harsh nerf, yet probably in a different way than most.

I have no problem with drawing the damage chill did from elsewhere and be it only Dhuumfire. With the right build I am certain you can deal just as much damage as before, but here is my gripe:

You can’t gain more survivability and handicap your opponent in the same way as before. I am not sure if you were aware, but bleeds don’t slow your opponent, they don’t prolongue their cooldowns and they don’t grant you 10% less damage taken. That’s a huge nerf for Reapers and will – in my opinion – make for base necro backliners as the new go to build and maybe even remove necro from the meta pool.

What do you mean? The chill effect is not gone, even though it doesn’t deal damage it still does everything else. That trait that makes chilled foes deal 10% less damage to you still works as well..

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleanse them? You can’t burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

I dont feel we got nerfed, however the elite shout needs to be tweaked. Similar abilities from other classes have lower base cooldowns. For example Jade Winds performs the same way as Chilled to the bone without the chill, only it has lower cast time, super low cooldown, does higher damage thanks to the Heralds always-crit chance and high ferocity, stuns for longer and if you watch your energy level you can pretty much use it as soon as its out of CD.

Even with 5 targets hit and Augury the Necro elite shout is 60 seconds CD. Jade Winds can spam 3 seconds hard CC and high aoe damage every 5 seconds. Stability is a non factor here.

Sun Lian.4075:

MisterWonka.8796:

First off let me say that I too think that this is a harsh nerf, yet probably in a different way than most.

I have no problem with drawing the damage chill did from elsewhere and be it only Dhuumfire. With the right build I am certain you can deal just as much damage as before, but here is my gripe:

You can’t gain more survivability and handicap your opponent in the same way as before. I am not sure if you were aware, but bleeds don’t slow your opponent, they don’t prolongue their cooldowns and they don’t grant you 10% less damage taken. That’s a huge nerf for Reapers and will – in my opinion – make for base necro backliners as the new go to build and maybe even remove necro from the meta pool.

What do you mean? The chill effect is not gone, even though it doesn’t deal damage it still does everything else. That trait that makes chilled foes deal 10% less damage to you still works as well..

Ofcourse it still works, but its effectiveness is drastically decreased by the nerfs to chill application.

Soul Spiral: Reduced the number of whirl combos during the course of the skill from 11 to 6.
Executioner’s Scythe: Reduced the freezing field duration from 6 seconds to 4 seconds.
“Chilled to the Bone!”: The chill duration from this skill has been reduced from 6 seconds to 4 seconds.
Chilling Nova: The chill duration from this trait has been reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds.
Shivers of Dread: The chill duration from this trait has been reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds.

That’s 1/3 less chill duration on the most frequently used chills, which in theory means 3-4% more damage taken, 22% less CD increase for opponents and 22% less movement impair for opponents for the time they used to be chilled compared to now. I don’t think that’s negligible.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

Edit: And since you insist that bleeds can be stacked so easily with all them blinds and stuff. I collected a list of where it is possible to get chill assuming the same build.
-Chillblains
-Reaper’s Mark
-Death’s charge
-Infusing terror
-Executioner’s Scythe (x4 from field)
-Soul Spiral (all 6 hits from spiral)
-Hydromancy sigil
-Suffer
-Chilled to the Bone

In total=17 stacks! 17 lousy stacks and you’ve burned over half of your CD’s and somehow you’d have to sustain that. So stop with the bs my friend.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

I’m not stubborn, I’m just convinced that there are more ways to work out a build with bleed using DC, compared to the simpe fixed chill dmg.4
Which btw was just as easily cleansed as bleed.. I don’t get why that issue keeps popping up, cleansing is not a bigger problem to bleed than it was to chill. Because in turn, bleed gives you more options than chill.

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

I’m not stubborn, I’m just convinced that there are more ways to work out a build with bleed using DC, compared to the simpe fixed chill dmg.4
Which btw was just as easily cleansed as bleed.. I don’t get why that issue keeps popping up, cleansing is not a bigger problem to bleed than it was to chill. Because in turn, bleed gives you more options than chill.

Wow dude. I just counted the number of skills that we have to inflict chill. Now old chill did fixed 600 dmg. You could stack either duration or reapply when the chill gets cleansed to keep that dmg up without burning all your CD’s. However if you burn all your CD’s to get that maximum 17 stacks of bleeds, you are left with nothing when those stacks are cleansed and they will be cleansed right away. Either by target or ele or druid in party. Sustain on old chill damage was op I can say that but the nerfs they did to applying and duration with little tuning of chill dmg would have been better and would not have killed the class. The new iteration is bs and subpar.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

Edit: And since you insist that bleeds can be stacked so easily with all them blinds and stuff. I collected a list of where it is possible to get chill assuming the same build.
-Chillblains
-Reaper’s Mark
-Death’s charge
-Infusing terror
-Executioner’s Scythe (x4 from field)
-Soul Spiral (all 6 hits from spiral)
-Hydromancy sigil
-Suffer
-Chilled to the Bone

In total=17 stacks! 17 lousy stacks and you’ve burned over half of your CD’s and somehow you’d have to sustain that. So stop with the bs my friend.

Assuming the same build

That’s exactly the problem here, you don’t compare these changes with the same build. You first think and try to make the best out of the changes and then you make your judgement.

When HoT released you changed your build too because reaper looked good, right?
So why would you gladly change your build if something looks good at first sight, and complain without even changing your build if it looks like a nerf. That’s really just whining.

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

Edit: And since you insist that bleeds can be stacked so easily with all them blinds and stuff. I collected a list of where it is possible to get chill assuming the same build.
-Chillblains
-Reaper’s Mark
-Death’s charge
-Infusing terror
-Executioner’s Scythe (x4 from field)
-Soul Spiral (all 6 hits from spiral)
-Hydromancy sigil
-Suffer
-Chilled to the Bone

In total=17 stacks! 17 lousy stacks and you’ve burned over half of your CD’s and somehow you’d have to sustain that. So stop with the bs my friend.

Assuming the same build

That’s exactly the problem here, you don’t compare these changes with the same build. You first think and try to make the best out of the changes and then you make your judgement.

When HoT released you changed your build too because reaper looked good, right?
So why would you gladly change your build if something looks good at first sight, and complain without even changing your build if it looks like a nerf. That’s really just whining.

What is this new build that can stack more bleeds? By abandoning Reaper you abandon DC. And if you don’t abandon Reaper a) you need SR and b) Spite doesn’t offer anymore Chill actually less than Curses. So there is actually no way to get more bleeds from DC than running the same build. Midl tweaks may apply but the base is the same. So yeah your argument invalid.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

Edit: And since you insist that bleeds can be stacked so easily with all them blinds and stuff. I collected a list of where it is possible to get chill assuming the same build.
-Chillblains
-Reaper’s Mark
-Death’s charge
-Infusing terror
-Executioner’s Scythe (x4 from field)
-Soul Spiral (all 6 hits from spiral)
-Hydromancy sigil
-Suffer
-Chilled to the Bone

In total=17 stacks! 17 lousy stacks and you’ve burned over half of your CD’s and somehow you’d have to sustain that. So stop with the bs my friend.

Assuming the same build

That’s exactly the problem here, you don’t compare these changes with the same build. You first think and try to make the best out of the changes and then you make your judgement.

When HoT released you changed your build too because reaper looked good, right?
So why would you gladly change your build if something looks good at first sight, and complain without even changing your build if it looks like a nerf. That’s really just whining.

What is this new build that can stack more bleeds? By abandoning Reaper you abandon DC. And if you don’t abandon Reaper a) you need SR and b) Spite doesn’t offer anymore Chill actually less than Curses. So there is actually no way to get more bleeds from DC than running the same build. Midl tweaks may apply but the base is the same. So yeah your argument invalid.

If my argument is invalid, then how come I’m not complaining about the dmg? Apparently I can find a way to make the new DC good too.. why can’t you?

How come every Pro Necro player has changed class? Maybe you are just running suboptimal setup.

samulihei.1952:

How come every Pro Necro player has changed class? Maybe you are just running suboptimal setup.

clearly he just want to argue with the other person, this change was a huge nerf and it killed the class to pre hot lvl and now we cant compete with the other clases was good while it last

samulihei.1952:

How come every Pro Necro player has changed class? Maybe you are just running suboptimal setup.

Because I imagine those players are like Brokensunday, giving up already after 1 day. It’s sad.

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

How come every Pro Necro player has changed class? Maybe you are just running suboptimal setup.

Because I imagine those players are like Brokensunday, giving up already after 1 day. It’s sad.

Ive already try every posible build and the only thing that is viable is signet necro but is bad at team fight and vs thief etc

Sun Lian,

Please stop this thread as its not making any progress.

Thanks

I just looked into building with all the runes and such and I may have actually found a way to make the previous meta build somewhat competitive at the cost of about 4000 hp and almost no lifeforce gain in comparison to before. Might be complete garbage, but I’ll test it and gather some opinions. Maybe it’s not that terrible of a nerf after all.