Guild Wars 2

Likely an unpopular opinion but I think the fact that shroud acts as a second life bar makes balancing difficult and prevents improvements to necro from happening so the second life bar idea needs to go.

Some problems are that the amount of health given in shroud is hard to balance. In PVE it’s great for survivability but in PVP the same amount isn’t enough to survive being CC locked. The necro is balanced around the fact that it is innately tanky because of the second life bar and the trade off is that it has lower (pretty sad) damage. Also, buffs like being able to use utility skills 6-0 while in shroud could be overpowered because you can heal your regular health while in shroud.

My suggestions for a shroud changes based on it not being a second life bar are:
1) Life force is built by activating any and every skill. (proportional to the cooldown.)
2) The life force gained does not act as a second life bar in shroud form. (It’s just a
resource to try to skillfully manage.)
3) The purpose of shroud is to have a window of time to be very good at a certain role
(possibly based on spec / elite spec). For example regular shroud has significantly
higher DPS than weapon skills or reaper shroud makes you into a legit tank etc.
4) While in shroud, life force drains quickly and the longer you are in shroud the more
damage you do.
5) You have access to all utility skills while in shroud.

What do people think about removing the second life bar aspect of shroud?

So basically you want to remove the core mechanic that drives the playstyle of the class and instead replace it with a copy of Druid’s Celestial Avatar?

Also shroud can be balanced, we just need some aspects of LF generation to be shifted towards scaling LF gain rather than static LF gain.

On topic : I think there is room for necromancers without 2 life bar but at this point of the game it should only come throught elite spec. Unlike what Crinn say, the core mechanic of the necromancer isn’t the 2 life bar, which is basically a feature, but the skill set that his gained.

The necromancer’s traitline need the skillset which exclude a possible replacement via F1-F2-F3-F4-F5 skill. As for the only trait that make “use” of the life force as a second life bar (unholy sanctuary), even without a 2nd life bar it would still be useful in it’s actual form.

Here is just my imagination but I can see 2 differents kind of E-spec resulting from the idea of an “external” shroud (since the Life force energy act internaly at the moment for our 2 current shroud and thus give us a 2nd life bar) :

- First is the formation of a “shroud beast” which fit the “summoner” thematic of the necromancer. We would end up with an extra set of skill helping us to command this beast. Obviously while in this shroud we would give up a large part of our DPS to the Beast.

- Second is the formation of a “Shroud armor” which would reduce incoming damage by a set %age and grant us an access to a free auto attack and 4 skill with a LF cost. These 4 skills would most likely be some defensive skill instead of offensive skill to fit the “resilient” thematic of the necromancer. I do not exclude the idea of some kind of retaliations associated with these defensive skill, that would be the “necro” flavor.

NB.: I do not see those 2 idea with LF degen. The loss for using these skillsets should be enough to balance the gains.

Out of topic : Druid’s celestial Avatar is a copy of the necromancer’s shroud.

Crinn.7864:

So basically you want to remove the core mechanic that drives the playstyle of the class and instead replace it with a copy of Druid’s Celestial Avatar?

Yes. I want the necro to fill specific roles and I feel that the second life bar holds us back. we have poor DPS and support which makes necro unwanted for raids. We are a health sponge but it isn’t enough to make necro seen as a viable tank in raids and it isn’t enough to survive a string of CC in PVP. It feels like the necro is middle ground (at best) for everything and can’t fill any role (DPS, support or tank).

So overall I am suggesting to give up the second life bar in exchange for being able to fill a specific role and to enable utility skills in shroud because there is no conflict anymore. You give a little a get a little.

And yes LF can be balanced for PVE and PVP but that doesn’t address the inability to fill specific roles in PVE and PVP or the conflict with enabling utility skills in shroud.

Dadnir.5038:

room for necromancers without 2 life bar but at this point of the game it should only come throught elite spec

Yes. Agreed.

Dadnir.5038:

core mechanic of the necromancer isn’t the 2 life bar, which is basically a feature, but the skill set that his gained.

OMG Yes!

Dadnir.5038:

Druid’s celestial Avatar is a copy of the necromancer’s shroud.

Preaching to the choir. Right out of my mouth.

I’m not great at the ins and outs of how to change specific skills and traits but I think each shroud should have a purpose or role.

Regular shroud fill the DPS role as a higher damage caster. I’d love to see it changed into a full out AOE Lich but I’d settle for just a numbers boost in our current shroud. Reaper shroud could fill the unstoppable monster or tank role but would need a bunch of changes. Maybe a combination of active blocks, evades or passive protection and stability to tank in PVE and survive CC in PVP. And maybe the shroud in the future elite spec could some kind of full support.

Dadnir.5038:

Out of topic : Druid’s celestial Avatar is a copy of the necromancer’s shroud.

Similar and copy are not the same. When Druids gain an extra bar of vitality and are locked out of their utility skills, call us back so we can complain.

Also agree with Crinn. Shroud (and Celestial Avatar) could benefit and be better balanced with proper scaling.

Its not a second life bar, its a rechargeable damage shield that comes with its own utility skills while your normal skills are allowed to recharge.

the “armour” concept may become reality next expac based on the leaks

Justine.6351:

Its not a second life bar, its a rechargeable damage shield that comes with its own utility skills while your normal skills are allowed to recharge.

Whether you call it a life bar or damage shield, you’re right in that shroud skills (especially regular shroud) aren’t super useful or thematic and they just bide the time till you can use other skills. It’s a core mechanic of the class and most builds don’t use it other than to wait recharges like you said. That’s why I’m hoping that each shroud could be tweaked to fill a role. It would give necromancers a reason to want to be in shroud depending on if they want to damage, tank or support.

Plastazote.7914:

Justine.6351:

Its not a second life bar, its a rechargeable damage shield that comes with its own utility skills while your normal skills are allowed to recharge.

Whether you call it a life bar or damage shield, you’re right in that shroud skills (especially regular shroud) aren’t super useful or thematic and they just bide the time till you can use other skills. It’s a core mechanic of the class and most builds don’t use it other than to wait recharges like you said. That’s why I’m hoping that each shroud could be tweaked to fill a role. It would give necromancers a reason to want to be in shroud depending on if they want to damage, tank or support.

Are you saying reaper shroud skills are not good? I hope you are not or this is just a,
/close

Plastazote.7914:

Yes. I want the necro to fill specific roles and I feel that the second life bar holds us back. we have poor DPS and support which makes necro unwanted for raids. We are a health sponge but it isn’t enough to make necro seen as a viable tank in raids and it isn’t enough to survive a string of CC in PVP. It feels like the necro is middle ground (at best) for everything and can’t fill any role (DPS, support or tank).

There is nothing intrinsic to shroud that prevent necromancers from filling those roles.

While it is entirely possible that ArenaNet places way too much value on EHP (look at how overcompensated thieves and eles are) we should not be encouraging that.

If you think necromancers should be filling those roles then you should make a thread asking for that, not make a thread that attacks a class mechanic that is completely unrelated to our ability to fill said roles.

Plastazote.7914:

Justine.6351:

Its not a second life bar, its a rechargeable damage shield that comes with its own utility skills while your normal skills are allowed to recharge.

Whether you call it a life bar or damage shield, you’re right in that shroud skills (especially regular shroud) aren’t super useful or thematic and they just bide the time till you can use other skills. It’s a core mechanic of the class and most builds don’t use it other than to wait recharges like you said. That’s why I’m hoping that each shroud could be tweaked to fill a role. It would give necromancers a reason to want to be in shroud depending on if they want to damage, tank or support.

wasnt one of the best selling point of GW2 was that they didnt do roles….. they didnt want to do what some other MMOs are doing hence no holy trinity…. It sounds as though you might want to try a game with a holy trinity….

Crinn.7864:

There is nothing intrinsic to shroud that prevent necromancers from filling those roles.

While it is entirely possible that ArenaNet places way too much value on EHP (look at how overcompensated thieves and eles are) we should not be encouraging that.

If you think necromancers should be filling those roles then you should make a thread asking for that, not make a thread that attacks a class mechanic that is completely unrelated to our ability to fill said roles.

You’re right that shroud doesn’t prevent necros from filling roles but overall there is nothing to make people want to use necros in the role either. For example why take a necro for DPS when every other class is equal or better? Or why have a necro tank when a chrono with minstrel’s gear could tank and provide enough boons that the group barely needs another support. My idea with shroud is to change it a bit so that it specifically addresses those gaps.

Sorry, I’m not sure what EHP is or the issues around it so not sure how to comment on it.

My problem is that I do think shroud (second life bar aspect) is related to the ability to fill roles. If we just boosted necro damage to be equal with the elementalist and not change shroud at all then other people would cry bloody murder because it would be overpowered to have the survivability and damage at the same time. So in that way, the tankiness (life bar) prevents sufficient buffs to damage to allow it to fill a DPS role.

(Edit) Maybe I should change the topic name to “Trade second life bar for ability to fill roles?”

NeXeD.3042:

wasnt one of the best selling point of GW2 was that they didnt do roles….. they didnt want to do what some other MMOs are doing hence no holy trinity…. It sounds as though you might want to try a game with a holy trinity….

Well yes and no… I’m mostly talking PVE but it still applies to PVP to a lesser degree when I mean roles. For raids there will always be someone who takes more of the damage and someone who is more focused on keeping people alive because it’s too hard for the whole party to damage, tank and support at the same time. Self heals on every character help a lot but sometimes it’s not enough.

The community will always have at least a “soft trinity” in the back of their minds. Right now necro isn’t good enough at any role in the soft trinity to warrant a spot. I’m just hoping for changes so that the overall community will see necro as an equal option for at least one (hopefully all three roles) in a raid (PVE) or group (PVP) setting.

This topic is really funny. Necromancer without DS bar made him unplayable in 90% game content. Necromancer dont need DPS boost, he have best dps in many raids wings right now.
Only one thing needs a necromancer, boost Vampiric Presence for better group support.

Evilek.5690:

Necromancer dont need DPS boost, he have best dps in many raids wings right now.

No we don’t. Necromancer has subpar dps and will continue to have subpar dps as long as field control doesn’t exist.

However our raid failings have nothing to do with the presence or absence of a second HP bar.

Plastazote.7914:

My problem is that I do think shroud (second life bar aspect) is related to the ability to fill roles.

In PvE yes, shroud has nothing to do with filling roles because in PvE survivability is irrelevant because everything can be done with 2 dodge charges. However we can be made desirable in PvE without removing our HP bar too.

(Edit) Maybe I should change the topic name to “Trade second life bar for ability to fill roles?”

We shouldn’t trade anything for anything. We are a underpowered class in everything but WvW and should be given straight buffs. Not have our one saving grace gutted so that we can fill roles that other classes would still do better.

I hope you are right and we just need straight buffs so we can keep the HP bar, have high damage and access to utilities at the same time. (That would be great!) It sounds too good to be true and I wonder what other people’s opinions are on that.

I want necro to have high damage in both PVE and PVP. If we keep the HP bar they are high damage and survivabilty. You make a point that in PVE survivability is less relevant but I’m not sure everyone would buy into that reasoning. In PVP I think everyone would complain that necro is overpowered if necros kept the HP bar but had the same damage as elementalist or thief. Just curious to see how you would respond to or rationalize that. (PVP isn’t quite my thing so I can’t say)

So if the goal was to balance PVE and PVP in a similar way, do you have ideas on how to give more damage (and how much) to necro in PVP without being OP? Or if you balance PVE and PVP differently, would it be sufficient to just give necro extra mobility and maybe a bit more tankiness (but not increase damage) in PVP like others in the forums have suggested? Sorry lots of questions. Just curious.

wasnt one of the best selling point of GW2 was that they didnt do roles….. they didnt want to do what some other MMOs are doing hence no holy trinity…. It sounds as though you might want to try a game with a holy trinity….

That’s a common misconception. The selling point of GW2 was that every profession were supposed to stand equal whatever role you would have to do and thus you could play whatever profession you wanted (which is not the case ATM). The issue with the necromancer was that Anet bet on condition as a support tool. Nothing more, nothing less.

No we don’t. Necromancer has subpar dps and will continue to have subpar dps as long as field control doesn’t exist.

As for “DPS”, the issue of the necromancer is and have always been it’s poor ability to burst down a foe. Each time he have the tools to do it, these tools are nerfed to the ground and he fall down to it’s barely average level. Anet with reaper tried in a really poor fashion to give power burst to the reaper, leading to “gravedigger”.

On topic :
When it come to the 2nd HP bar, the main issue is that this thing promote a slow gameplay in a game that is all about fast actions. In PvP, this immediately put the current necromancers at a disadvantage whatever Anet try to do.

From my point of view, Anet try really hard to force the necromancer into this “slow” and, sadly, not so unstoppable design. The 2nd life bar is merely an excuse to support this gameplay design. What necromancers need is, in fact, a new wind in it’s gameplay/design and (again from my point of view) that’s what E-spec are supposed to give us.

Thus, I think that E-spec that would remove the 2nd life bar thingy can only benefit us and open new way to reveal the necromancer’s potential which is, at the moment, in a jeans that is so tightly fit that he can’t even bend it’s legs when he walk.

Again, the issue is not a matter of DPS or survivability, the issue is all about introducing something (or here, removing something) that push the gameplay design of the necromancer in ways that fit better with the design of the game as a whole. For this Anet can easily remove the 2nd life bar to replace it with tools that suit a fast pace gameplay. I’m talking about defensive tools that would be reactive instead of this very passive life bar. One also need to understand that the shroud is not only a defensive tool but it’s also supposed to be a support tool as well as a DPS tool. Removing the life bar component of the shroud also improve tremendously the necromancer in these area.

why is the syvalri elite skill better than lich form?…

felincyriac.5981:

why is the syvalri elite skill better than lich form?…

Because the lich form is slow and clumsy while the sylvari elite skill is a lasting effect that does not impair your ability to do your job.

Dadnir.5038:

felincyriac.5981:

why is the syvalri elite skill better than lich form?…

Because the lich form is slow and clumsy while the sylvari elite skill is a lasting effect that does not impair your ability to do your job.

and it’s alright for the racial elite to be better?
(not being serious ofc, wondering why its like this…)

The racial elite is not bound by stupid slow design, it’s only bound by the racial design.

Anet have designed necromancer’s skill like an old horror film : The slow vilain that you can’t shake off. The sylvari skill is superior because it’s not bound by this design, instead it gain from the everlasting theme of plants.

There is a few people, me included, that want to get rid of lich form as well as plague form. It would be easy to make skills that are way better than those while keeping in mind the necromancer’s thematic and the underlying thematic of those skills. Just, we would gain to get rid of those unpracticable transformation skills that lock us out of almost everything yet grant us nothing good.

Dadnir.5038:

The racial elite is not bound by stupid slow design, it’s only bound by the racial design.

Anet have designed necromancer’s skill like an old horror film : The slow vilain that you can’t shake off. The sylvari skill is superior because it’s not bound by this design, instead it gain from the everlasting theme of plants.

There is a few people, me included, that want to get rid of lich form as well as plague form. It would be easy to make skills that are way better than those while keeping in mind the necromancer’s thematic and the underlying thematic of those skills. Just, we would gain to get rid of those unpracticable transformation skills that lock us out of almost everything yet grant us nothing good.

agreed, plague form is just utter trash, I only ever put it on my skill bar in the aquatic fractal (no longer the case though, cttb is what i use now). Lich form is only ever used for the number 4, which is worse than a racial elite skill…
Whilst they may be working to improve it, the minimal impact these ~4 month balance patches make leads me to believe that a complete overhaul will take years .

I am a little salty by the fact that I can’t access take root, but who actually plays a necro for their dps, so instead I’m making a ranger (syvalri ofc).

Can we be realistic guys, Flesh Golem is better in actual content because of it’s breakbar ability.

Take Root is more of a parsing golem gimmick than something that is practical in actual content.

Random aside:
Honestly benchmarks ought be done on the 10mil HP golem not the 4mil HP golem. The 4mil HP golem is too easy to gimmick. Such as being able to add several hundred DPS by just clipping your rotation at 5%.

Although I do agree that the transform elites (plague lich) are bad and need either replacements or buffs.

Crinn.7864:

Can we be realistic guys, Flesh Golem is better in actual content because of it’s breakbar ability.

Take Root is more of a parsing golem gimmick than something that is practical in actual content.

Random aside:
Honestly benchmarks ought be done on the 10mil HP golem not the 4mil HP golem. The 4mil HP golem is too easy to gimmick. Such as being able to add several hundred DPS by just clipping your rotation at 5%.

Although I do agree that the transform elites (plague lich) are bad and need either replacements or buffs.

Also people forget getting top dps on a static golem isn’t the same as fighting a raid boss. Take Sloth or Matt for example. Both have mechanics that force you to move out of melee to the edge of the arena, giving an advantage to classes that have range.

I don’t get the proposal … do you think Anet is more likely to make a specific role for Necros is they removed the Shroud ability? I think it’s actually the opposite … if you want specific roles, it will be entirely THROUGH the Shroud it will happen. It’s no different than Scrapper or Druid … the elite defines the specific roles through the class tools or new tools.

Evilek.5690:

This topic is really funny. Necromancer without DS bar made him unplayable in 90% game content. Necromancer dont need DPS boost, he have best dps in many raids wings right now.
Only one thing needs a necromancer, boost Vampiric Presence for better group support.

the kitten are you talking about, necromancers are being kicked out of raid for low dps kitten .

vicious.5683:

Evilek.5690:

This topic is really funny. Necromancer without DS bar made him unplayable in 90% game content. Necromancer dont need DPS boost, he have best dps in many raids wings right now.
Only one thing needs a necromancer, boost Vampiric Presence for better group support.

the kitten are you talking about, necromancers are being kicked out of raid for low dps kitten .

You play maybe other game. I clear every single weekend all raid wings like necromancer without problem.

Solutions for you is start raiding with normal people.

Evilek.5690:

vicious.5683:

Evilek.5690:

This topic is really funny. Necromancer without DS bar made him unplayable in 90% game content. Necromancer dont need DPS boost, he have best dps in many raids wings right now.
Only one thing needs a necromancer, boost Vampiric Presence for better group support.

the kitten are you talking about, necromancers are being kicked out of raid for low dps kitten .

You play maybe other game. I clear every single weekend all raid wings like necromancer without problem.

Solutions for you is start raiding with normal people.

Maybe YOU play other game. There is evidence all over the place that necromancer’s dps is below average and can be replaced with condi engi and ranger easily

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get the proposal … do you think Anet is more likely to make a specific role for Necros is they removed the Shroud ability? I think it’s actually the opposite … if you want specific roles, it will be entirely THROUGH the Shroud it will happen. It’s no different than Scrapper or Druid … the elite defines the specific roles through the class tools or new tools.

The proposal is not to remove shroud, its associated skills and the LF mechanic but to trade the second life bar aspect of it for more DPS (among other things). This is based on the idea that it might be overpowered for necro to be a good HP sponge and have high damage at the same time. Some argue that it is ok to straight up boost DPS without removing the life bar aspect. And yes, roles will likely change through the shroud as you say. What are your thoughts? I’m open to hearing reasons both ways.

Um, maybe I don’t get what you are saying .. if you remove the life bar that determines how long you can be in shroud … then how do you even get INTO shroud form to begin with? I mean, that makes many shroud traits quite useless and then those would require a rethink too. Frankly, I think the suggestion isn’t even worth considering based on how much work it would take to do it and how un-specific and open ended it’s been stated.

Here are my thoughts … I think if you want to have a serious discussion, you don’t try to completely rewrite the core mechanic of the profession to justify an idea you have; at best you incorporate it into your idea … at worst you simply ignore it’s there.

The whole idea behind the second life bar is the defining element of the class; the class that gives players a frequent swap between chosen skills and a fixed set that allows Anet to build a theme/flavour around. Your proposal here isn’t to fix Necro, it’s to replace it with another class theme with the same name.

Finally, I think it’s rather short sighted to give up this element for a ‘role’, especially in a game where roles are a SECONDARY consideration for a very small portion of it.

Hmm, I don’t think you get it but I don’t know how else to explain it other than what has already been said and what’s in the opening post so I’m just going to leave it. I also don’t think it’s as hard to change as you say.

I’m going to over simplify the purpose of this thread and say I want the necromancer to have high DPS (similar to elementalist.) Is it fair to give necromancer equal DPS in PVP given how tanky they are because of the second HP bar? Can you justify it? If you can, my suggestion to trade is moot. If not, what are you willing to compromise? I feel that the tanky theme holds us back.

Elite spec, sure.

Core, no.

Plastazote.7914:

I’m going to over simplify the purpose of this thread and say I want the necromancer to have high DPS (similar to elementalist.) Is it fair to give necromancer equal DPS in PVP given how tanky they are because of the second HP bar?

Elementalists do not have high DPS in spvp, that is not their role. Necromancers do fill a DPS role, and their mix of tools allow them to fill their heavy offensive role very well. They aren’t even particularly tanky, and it’s reasonable to argue that they are the least tanky- there is a reason they are the class most dependent on team support.

Plastazote.7914:

Can you justify it? If you can, my suggestion to trade is moot. If not, what are you willing to compromise? I feel that the tanky theme holds us back.

As I read, your argument is basically this:

-Necromancers are tanky, other classes are not tanky.
-Necromancers cannot deal the same damage than other classes, because they have that tankiness.
-Necromancers should therefore be changed so that they can be premium DPS.

This chain of logic is flawed;
-Necromancers are not especially tanky compared to other classes and if they want to really abuse Death Shroud, they need to give up damage to be able to do so.
-Even if Necromancers were exceptionally tanky compared to other classes, that does not mean that they should not deal similar DPS. Other classes can fill other ‘fuzzy’ roles that Necromancers cannot.

^^ I will take your word for it because I don’t PVP enough to know the ins and outs. I hope the overall community including other classes agree with you because it would be nice to keep the second HP bar and have more DPS. I hesitate because my gut tells me Anet sees necromancer as a tanky class and balances it accordingly so we may not get the DPS buffs we ask for.

Necro is tanky in PvE… in PvP, not so much.

Avigrus.2871:

Necro is tanky in PvE… in PvP, not so much.

It depend a lot of the damae output of the mobs you face. In most of the case, necromancers melt as fast and even faster than other professions in scaled events.

long story short – death shroud (the core necro one) obstructs just about every type of gameplay you want to have on necro:

healing build? Nope, #4 has atrocious cooldown and no way to give it a significant cut (unlike reaper)

Condi build? Lol, with what? Life blast that will apply 1 burning stack per 1.5-2s or so with dhumfire? Or the pitifully weak 3 stacks of torment on tainted shackles? Doom + terror might get a bit of damage going, but that’s nowhere near what is needed by a condi build to keep dps going while staying in shroud to give base healtpool a breather.

Power build? Here it’s closest to something viable, but still not that good, and in spvp it’s a joke – you fire these shots so rarely that a simple blind or two will severy cripple your dps for the time enemy needs to burn down your shroud hp.

That doesn’t make much sense … that’s the wrong way to think about what shroud does in the first place because the unique class skills aren’t build around an ‘X’ or a ‘Y’ kind of build. In fact, if shroud doesn’t add anything to the build you want to use, you can completely ignore it. That’s the opposite of obstruction.

Obtena.7952:

That doesn’t make much sense … that’s the wrong way to think about what shroud does in the first place because the unique class skills aren’t build around an ‘X’ or a ‘Y’ kind of build. In fact, if shroud doesn’t add anything to the build you want to use, you can completely ignore it. That’s the opposite of obstruction.

Yes but Necromancer is held back in many ways because we have shroud. In Anet’s eyes and on paper it is the best profession mechanic (2nd life bar + 5 extra skills) when in reality it isn’t half as good.

As i posted ..somewhere – necro could have the top damage and shroud as is, with the rule set in place that he needs time to wind up his damage. Time without getting downed and perhaps meeting additional conditions for success. But once he would get the ball rolling he’d be strongest, as long as he doesn’t blow it.

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

That doesn’t make much sense … that’s the wrong way to think about what shroud does in the first place because the unique class skills aren’t build around an ‘X’ or a ‘Y’ kind of build. In fact, if shroud doesn’t add anything to the build you want to use, you can completely ignore it. That’s the opposite of obstruction.

Yes but Necromancer is held back in many ways because we have shroud. In Anet’s eyes and on paper it is the best profession mechanic (2nd life bar + 5 extra skills) when in reality it isn’t half as good.

yeah … that doesn’t change what I said does it?

I think there is a case to be made against shroud when considering various builds people want to play, but shroud certainly doesn’t obstruct anyone from playing whatever build they want. I won’t be so presumptuous to say Anet thinks it’s the best profession mechanic; when did they ever say that? They wouldn’t. Let’s stick to what’s true shall we?

I don’t think there is honestly any discussion about trading shroud ability for … whatever. It’s the class mechanic. The tanky theme doesn’t hold the class back, it defines it. The idea that we simply ‘take it away’ for something else just doesn’t make sense, even if shroud does hold the class back compared to … whatever.

^^ The way I am reading the more recent part of this thread is that you and Zeft are saying the same thing. He is saying core necro shroud “obstructs” gameplay. He means those shroud skills are not useful to any build of necromancer. You are saying that if shroud doesn’t offer anything useful that you can ignore it altogether. The fact is core shroud is so bad everyone chooses to ignore it and take reaper instead. Everyone is ignoring the profession mechanic (which should be the fundamental basis of necro). It should be something everyone wants to use. The moral is core shroud needs fixing.

Your second point “the tanky theme doesn’t hold the class back, it defines it” is exactly the problem. It is defined as a tanky class but myself and other people want it to be able to do some decent damage. Simply put, Anet sees the necro as a tanky class because it has been given a second life bar and is therefore unlikely to give it damage too.

The suggestion to trade the life bar for damage is an attempt to shift the perception of necro as a tanky class to one that can do a variety of things. And based on this conversation I understand that there are good reasons that necro deserves damage buffs on top of maintaining a second life bar I will stop asking to trade for damage. However, that doesn’t change the fact that necro is seen as a tanky class. Most likely that perception of the class has to be changed before necro gets any DPS buffs.

The fact is core shroud is so bad everyone chooses to ignore it and take reaper instead.

You’re partly right and at the sae time one may say you’re wrong by saying that. Core shroud certainly need some tweeks but until the most recent change to deathly chill in PvE, core shroud was still used for some encounter in raids (that is when groups were taking necromancers ). By using a slightly straining combination of skills, you were able to outperform reaper shroud when it come to send out bleeds stacks.

Now, again, core shroud certainly need a rework of some skills. To be honest, and that just an idea that I throw aimlessly, the Shroud would gain a lot of credibility if Anet were to fuse land shroud and underwater shroud.

- Plague blast would become our AA.
- Dark path with it’s pro and cons would stay our most hated skill#2.
- Doom would stay our fear skill as the 3rd skill of our shroud.
- Dark water would be melted into life transfer in such a way that the new skill blind foes instead of generating life force. The cool down would be reduced to 30s.
- Tainted shackle would additionnally generate life force per foe it by the final blast and drain conditions from neaby allies at the same time. No change on cool down.

The suggestion to trade the life bar for damage is an attempt to shift the perception of necro as a tanky class to one that can do a variety of things.

It’s my personnal opinion but I don’t think there is a need for more damage. However, I agree that the 2nd life bar, in itself, impede the different role that are piled up on the shroud : damage, support and defense. The 2nd life bar is the embodiment of the defense role and it kill the 2 other roles. That’s why having e-spec(s) that cast aside the second life bar can help the shroud and the necromancer to reach new height. Be it in damage or in support.

In short, from my point of view, removing the 2nd life bar is a way to gain the leisure to use the shroud as a mean of damage/support, instead of being forced to use it as a mean of defense and quickly lose my opportunity to land offensive skills or cast support skills.

Hmm, interesting suggestions on how to change shroud. Sounds like a good idea in that it would add some damage and support with minimal changes to shroud. I’d be up for that. My preference would be to change core shroud into a full out damage focused skillset, beef up reaper a tiny bit more to survive a bit better for a tank role then have the new e-spec be full support. However, that would take much more tweaking and is therefore less likely to happen.

Yep I’d give it up in a heartbeat

Dadnir.5038:

You’re partly right and at the sae time one may say you’re wrong by saying that. Core shroud certainly need some tweeks but until the most recent change to deathly chill in PvE, core shroud was still used for some encounter in raids (that is when groups were taking necromancers ).

The core necromancer condi dps build never used shroud though. It was just scepter/scepter all the time. Core shroud is bad and has no redeeming factors.