Traitworks: Dead Last
1. Debuging topic.
2. Guys, are you watching the ranger CDI? Im rather pessimistic about the changes now IF we get on these conversations in the near future. :/
tl;dr of that topic:
Players suggestions -> Reaction from Anet.
Fix AI. ? Can’t and / or don’t want.
Remove AI. ? Can’t and / or don’t want.
Im not a programmer or anything, but i think the problem with the pet-A.I. is a technical problem. Anet just seems to be incapable of creating a working A.I.. It was kitten in gw1 and it’s still kitten after 1.5 years in gw2.
Most of the necro’s problems on the other hand are kitten traits/skills. thats a balance issue, not a technical one (except for some death shroud related things maybe). Luckily our pets are optional.
Now Anet’s balance-department appears to be just as incompetent as their A.I.-guys, but in my opinion theres still a small hope that our problems are easier to solve than the ranger’s problems.
Gunnar’s Hold
Literally every single response I saw was nothing like that.
At worst their reaction was that it would be difficult to do. Not that they wouldn’t, not that they haven’t considered it, not that they will ignore those requests, only that it would be hard. They then encouraged all pet-related suggestions.
Every response they made was either encouragement (“these are interesting/good changes”), or clarification (“this might be hard to do, but we haven’t written off doing it”).
Necro’s CDI will turn into a Necro hate topic with only suggested nerf’s.. (count on it)
Maybe when the necro CDI comes along, we put forward the generally accepted changes suggested on the subforum..iow this topic, and bug reports with a general description of what the necromancer should be.
Then go from there with skill suggestions. and reworks..
But as you might have guessed, the ranger CDI is now over 3 weeks old, add to that another months diuscussion on the CDI internally and we are 2 months further without any action, so then fixes, remodeling etc starts.. another 2 months minimum.
That is 4 months on a CDI of one profession. (and i am being very generous in timeframes)
4 months x 7 professions = too long considering most suggestions are about fixes and broken mechanics.
That said, i am still positive that while they are discussing, there are a few people in the background working their kitten off trying to give us what we want.
E.A.D.
When it comes to our CDI, I’d like to propose that ideas to change traits or skills keep the same theme the current skills/traits have. This limits the possibility that suggested changes do not fit the dev’s vision for the necro.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
When it comes to our CDI, I’d like to propose that ideas to change traits or skills keep the same theme the current skills/traits have. This limits the possibility that suggested changes do not fit the dev’s vision for the necro.
Aka going trough http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_historical_traits#Necromancer_traits and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=List_of_historical_traits&oldid=249833#Necromancer_traits
And old vids… i really wish that Deathly Shivers is returned to 30 point requirement (aka grandmaster in current trait functionality) and its old reaper of grenth animation+function while it gets a original effect.
We’d have to join forces and prepare a nice and clean plan to show to ANET during the CDI.
Not everyone has much time to spend, but we should at least get some thread or presentation which resumes in a clean way what’s wrong in traits (which we did during this thread), skills, bring potential and reasonable ideas subscribing and giving the approval.
Imho this would get more highlight on this good work and avoid all the chaos that happened in the Ranger CDI.
I agree with you there. So, what are some things everyone can agree on? I’m pretty sure we all would like to see defense/sustain improvements, especially in the form of siphons becoming worth using. I believe an increase in our ways to deal with CC is also up there (not necessarily stability, though if not that, then a way to punish the use of CC).
We should start from detecting what the community doesn’t like from Traits and summing up the results from the Baelfire’s surveys. (I was doing a similar work to resume in a quick image the results of the survey)
Then we can propose some rational ideas to show how to fix them. Maybe the first try working with what we have, maybe relocating, merging traits and checking for empty slots which should be potentially used for new traits.
I wouldn’t go too far with new traits and stuff, just keeping them as a ultimate source to give ANET some ideas, exactly as the thread discussion about potential Minor Traits.
After that, staying with the feet on the ground, we can decide by giving the approval or suggesting modifies to the best plan.
This should be done for skill balance too, but I think organizing a poll is out of my possibilities.
We should almost refine the Traitworks.
Class balance CDI’s will always become chaotic. Theres just too many people to prevent that. But yes linking this thread and summarising the unbiased data would be a massive help to the devs.
Given the fact that the Content Patch did little to nothing overall the traits, this thread imo still keeps being valid, why don’t we discuss about new traits to complete it?
fine by me:
the new grandmasters:
- Parasitic Contagion: Very strong in PvE , it would be considered OP if the placement of your conditions were guranatueed.
- Path of corrution: A strong pvp trait which is in the right spot.
- Unholy Sanctuary: A grandmaster for getting regenaration in death shroud? Garbage trait.
- Unholy martyr: A grandmaster for getting plague signet in DS with shorter radius but 5% life force in return? There is potential, increase the number of targets/pulse (2~3 would be fine).
- Renewing blast: can’t really make an opinion on that one.
minors:
- Armored Shroud: good for 1pt trait.
- Soul comprehension: 2% life force for every kill? useless.
- Parasitic Contagion: Makes no sense putting a second condi trait in the power line. Wrong place for this trait.
- Path of corrution: A good wvw/pvp trait. Would of preferred something useful in pve aswell but im happy with this.
- Unholy Sanctuary: Nice concept. Not strong enough and relies too much on heavy lifeforce generation.
- Unholy martyr: Seems pointless as we already have utilities and traits which do this. I would put Parasitic contagion as the blood magic grandmaster and get rid of this one.
- Renewing blast: Complete trash.
Overall all new grandmasters are either terrible or pvp focused. Last time I checked necro needed the most help in pve and some help in high lvl tpvp. So why no new utility? Utility is something that would help necro in both pve and high lvl tpvp.
- Parasitic Contagion: Makes no sense putting a second condi trait in the power line. Wrong place for this trait.
- Path of corrution: A good wvw/pvp trait. Would of preferred something useful in pve aswell but im happy with this.
- Unholy Sanctuary: Nice concept. Not strong enough and relies too much on heavy lifeforce generation.
- Unholy martyr: Seems pointless as we already have utilities and traits which do this. I would put Parasitic contagion as the blood magic grandmaster and get rid of this one.
- Renewing blast: Complete trash.
Overall all new grandmasters are either terrible or pvp focused. Last time I checked necro needed the most help in pve and some help in high lvl tpvp. So why no new utility? Utility is something that would help necro in both pve and high lvl tpvp.
Well Parasitic Contagion could have been in Blood with Fetrid Consumption being put into Spite (since it already has Training of the Master), tho its not really a problematic placement overall (lose some gain some).
Path of corrution feels very good and has strong pvp power, but it would have made more sense if it did something like give additional 10~20% cdr on Dark Path.
Unholy Sanctuary – let me just point this out, most master minors (inluding our bloody vampiric) are better than it, 130 pre second while in DS vs permanent 360 regen, 130 aoe for the entire team pre 5-7s, permaregen for free and 1300 pre 10 seconds for entire team…. yeah both most selfish heal trait and worst not even being a minor trait.
Unholy martyr actually has a lot of potential as a good blood trait… it just doesnt have the target count nor does DM 6/shrouded removal pulse like all simmilar traits pre 3-5s to remove a condi; nor does UM have a trick like making said conditions last 50% longer but are applied counting 0 condition damage/doing base 43~328 damage.
Unholy martyr actually has a lot of potential as a good blood trait…
How?
If anything it should be in Soul Reaping instead of Renewing Blast. You know… put the healing trait (like Transfusion) in the healing trait line and the life force generating trait in the line that buffs DS.
And of course it’s total garbage, at best it deserves an adept or master minor slot.
Overall, Path of Corruption makes sense, and Parasitic Contagion would if it was in Blood Magic and we could heal in DS. The rest is just bad.
Unholy martyr actually has a lot of potential as a good blood trait…
How?
If anything it should be in Soul Reaping instead of Renewing Blast. You know… put the healing trait (like Transfusion) in the healing trait line and the life force generating trait in the line that buffs DS.
And of course it’s total garbage, at best it deserves an adept or master minor slot.Overall, Path of Corruption makes sense, and Parasitic Contagion would if it was in Blood Magic and we could heal in DS. The rest is just bad.
Well, its protecting your allies, something the supportive/life siphon tree is thematically about (tho it is more about healing). Yes it does generate life force, but thats to offset the fact that you are kinda murdering yourself (25 bleed stacks, immobs, etc)
Martyr has potential, but its just a bit off from good. First change it needs is to pulse once on entry, like the other traits.
The results for Foot in the Grave are hilarious. The skill cap has clearly not been met by many players lol. That trait is amazing. I’ve used it for over 2000 hours since release and have never seriously used any other builds without it, other than experimenting or playing around with other builds.
This trait, along with the elementalist’s trait Rock Solid are the highest skill cap stabilities in the game and also have the highest total uptime. They function the same as any long lasting stability but you have to use it skillfully. Most long lasting stability are really just going to waste because you’re not being CC’d for 8 or more seconds straight. All you need is those few precious seconds of stability for it to do it’s job.
The results for Foot in the Grave are hilarious. The skill cap has clearly not been met by many players lol. That trait is amazing. I’ve used it for over 2000 hours since release and have never seriously used any other builds without it, other than experimenting or playing around with other builds.
This trait, along with the elementalist’s trait Rock Solid are the highest skill cap stabilities in the game and also have the highest total uptime. They function the same as any long lasting stability but you have to use it skillfully. Most long lasting stability are really just going to waste because you’re not being CC’d for 8 or more seconds straight. All you need is those few precious seconds of stability for it to do it’s job.
Don’t turn this into a skill-nerdpride argument.
The problem with Foot in the Grave (SoulReaping XI) are 2:
1) it isn’t worth 30 old or 6 actual trait points, it’s too much deep into the tree so not every build which need it can benefit it properly; GrandMaster traits should define builds, this trait is out of this logic.
2) Its interaction with Near to Death (SoulReaping VIII) and boon duration is the main problem, as we discussed yet; NtD is the main reason because most of our Death Shroud related traits are being held down and nerfed badly.
- I don’t give a flying kitten about players wanting someting to show skill and that they waste all their life on a game, I want a full functional, funny and smart thought Necromancer.
(edited by Luke.4562)
Maybe you have a point with Near to Death being the real build defining trait, instead of Near to Death, because that’s kind of true. But let’s say Foot in the Grave and Near to Death swapped places… then every necromancer would take it no matter what their build.
People claim it not to be worth 6 points into Soul Reaping because then they can’t take it without that totally messing with the build that they want (build that has everything like a warrior). Contrary to popular belief, increased life force, increased critical damage and spectral armor are really useful.
Technically, Near to Death being moved to grandmaster and Foot in the Grave to master would not affect any builds using those traits because they all go 6 into Soul Reaping anyway. However, then you make every build have to have 4 into Soul Reaping for stability to stay competitive even if it doesn’t synergize with anything in their build.
Okay, another scenario. Let’s say Near to Death was deleted entirely and Foot in The Grave remained where it is. Would that solve your issues as a necromancer? No, because Soul Reaping doesn’t fit your build.
Okay, let’s say the stability was buffed another 1 or 2 seconds to be 4 or 5 seconds long (which would never be done because then you could have almost permanent stability since higher numbers increase more with boon duration). Would that solve your issues as a necromancer? No, because Soul Reaping doesn’t fit your build.
Let’s say, every shroud dancing trait was buffed and Near to Death was deleted completely. Weakening Shroud became 5s of weakness, Spiteful Spirit became 5s of retaliation, Deathly Invigoration still sucked (lol), Shrouded Removal became 2 conditions removed, Foot in the Grave became 5s of stability and was even moved down to master tier for some reason. Does THAT solve your issues as a necromancer? No, that doesn’t fit your build… but you adapt and change it: Then you create the new dagger/dagger elementalist build in necromancer form which everyone has to take to stay competitive.
Is Near to Death really nerfing every trait so bad? Are 3s durations of boons/conditions/etc. really not good enough/bad? Of course not. The only trait that was even “nerfed” was Weakening Shroud and that is simply because arenanet doesn’t live on the same planet that we do.
Moving Foot in the Grave to master will not solve any problems at all. If you aren’t taking Near to Death, then you aren’t building for traits like this and it doesn’t affect you whatsoever. It doesn’t affect your condition build that you can’t take FitG, it doesn’t affect your minion builds and it doesn’t affect your well builds – you aren’t building for it so this trait shouldn’t even be on your mind.
The only reason necromancers complain about FitG and Near to Death is because they get focused/CC’d to death and want ways to defend against it. That’s what necromancers need – build diversity. Alternative ways other than FitG to defend against focus fire and CC. It’s silly to attack Near to Death as holding necromancers back when it’s simply a different build type.
One alternative way to survive focus fire/CC that comes to mind, would be the Blood Magic tree if it didn’t suck. Or Holy Sanctuary if it didn’t suck. More access to protection would help as well. Ritual of Protection isn’t a very good trait itself.
- Parasitic contagion:
A bit awkward in spite tree and forces 6/6/x/x/x build to be useful.
- Path of corruption:
Good
- Unholy sanctuary:
First of, this should be in blood magic. It is a healing power related trait so can we please put in in a tree that is related to it? I’m puzzled by these necro traits that force us to go 6 points in unrelated trait lines. Secondly it is too weak. The healing power scaling is ok-ish but it should have a way higher base value considering it is a GM trait.
Unholy martyr: Havent tested, could see swapping places with sanctuary above. death already has conditions related trait so it would fit the theme.
Renewing blast: Havent tested, but seems weak on paper.
Life siphoning: needs a buff, far better scaling of healing power. Like triple the current (would still suck?). Would greatly help with the attrition playstyle. Also should work while in deathshroud.
From 8 to 4 months ago, a kittenload of nice work wasted again.
From 8 to 4 months ago, a kittenload of nice work wasted again.
Yes, my sadness is getting stronger and stonger as more and more balance patches waste their potential, again.
It is even more depresive to see how this game doesnt evolve :’(
Yet, anet do have a massive ammount of suggestion they could use right away.