Guild Wars 2

#ronpierce for balance team 2015

Why are you nerfing Reaper’s Might instead of buffing Chilling Victory.

I don’t understand it, we’re balancing a necromancer within a vacuum instead of taking a look at what the strong classes have.

Necromancer self might buffing is hardly a problem….

Zenith.7301:

Why are you nerfing Reaper’s Might instead of buffing Chilling Victory.

I don’t understand it, we’re balancing a necromancer within a vacuum instead of taking a look at what the strong classes have.

Necromancer self might buffing is hardly a problem….

Woa woa woa…. who said anything about nerfing reapers might?!? Have a source or is this just talk?

It was brought up that shifting might duration from Reaper’s Might to Chilling Victory would be preferred over leaving Chilling Victory at such low might duration.

Seriously the safest way is making it a two hit skill, it only helps what’s underperforming with base shroud and it makes sense since what makes Reaper’s shroud better is not the melee focus nor the cleave but the dps. When the devs nerf they nerf to the ground and sometimes under.

Bhawb.7408:

It was brought up that shifting might duration from Reaper’s Might to Chilling Victory would be preferred over leaving Chilling Victory at such low might duration.

This and lower RM duration with the suggested lower cast time on Life blast. The “nerf” suggested is being vastly taken out of context.

As long as I can still quickly stack 25 might and maintain it on my reaper using reapers might i’ll be happy. If not….. riot

I mean, why not just buff a deficient trait instead of nerfing another one to make the crappy one look good with the shifted functionality?

This stinks of the same logic they used with rangers.

“Oh, you guys aren’t using longbow? Here, let’s nerf shortbow and see if you guys use longbow.”

Zenith.7301:

I mean, why not just buff a deficient trait instead of nerfing another one to make the crappy one look good with the shifted functionality?

This stinks of the same logic they used with rangers.

“Oh, you guys aren’t using longbow? Here, let’s nerf shortbow and see if you guys use longbow.”

No, like I said, you’re still not taking anything I’ve said into consideration. doubling the attack speed of Life blast builds it much faster. I suggested a nerf from 15 to 10-12, which would still technically be faster at building, and only a bit less potent at holding that max stack (so long as you use life blast somewhat frequently, it wouldn’t be a major issue with Runes of Strength), and doesn’t touch Signet might building at all. Technically, this would be MORE reliable, overall, with a faster Life blast. You simply cannot go buffing Life blast and leave the supporting traits alone.

The part where Reaper comes in however, is that I suggest the faster cast Life blast and shorter Duration system over the two-hit Life Blast because with Reaper using a faster attack, Reaper’s Might is too good, and suffers the same balance issue a faster life blast would already, effectively making it better than Chilling victory, which is being held back because of this trait. The faster Life Blast but shorter might idea that I had would keep it relatively close to how it is now for base necromancer (again, given a faster attack speed), but reduce its potency slightly for Reapers, allowing for Chilling Victory to be better balanced and useful as a whole, which is currently, as a Master-Major, getting outshined fairly easily by Reaper’s Might, a minor-adept in spite.

Essentially, two birds with one stone. The two-attack might fix only keeps it the same for base necromancer but does very little to solve further issues with speed variations between the shrouds.

ronpierce.2760:

Zenith.7301:

I mean, why not just buff a deficient trait instead of nerfing another one to make the crappy one look good with the shifted functionality?

This stinks of the same logic they used with rangers.

“Oh, you guys aren’t using longbow? Here, let’s nerf shortbow and see if you guys use longbow.”

No, like I said, you’re still not taking anything I’ve said into consideration. doubling the attack speed of Life blast builds it much faster. I suggested a nerf from 15 to 10-12, which would still technically be faster at building, and only a bit less potent at holding that max stack (so long as you use life blast somewhat frequently, it wouldn’t be a major issue with Runes of Strength), and doesn’t touch Signet might building at all. Technically, this would be MORE reliable, overall, with a faster Life blast. You simply cannot go buffing Life blast and leave the supporting traits alone.

The part where Reaper comes in however, is that I suggest the faster cast Life blast and shorter Duration system over the two-hit Life Blast because with Reaper using a faster attack, Reaper’s Might is too good, and suffers the same balance issue a faster life blast would already, effectively making it better than Chilling victory, which is being held back because of this trait. The faster Life Blast but shorter might idea that I had would keep it relatively close to how it is now for base necromancer (again, given a faster attack speed), but reduce its potency slightly for Reapers, allowing for Chilling Victory to be better balanced and useful as a whole, which is currently, as a Master-Major, getting outshined fairly easily by Reaper’s Might, a minor-adept in spite.

Essentially, two birds with one stone. The two-attack might fix only keeps it the same for base necromancer but does very little to solve further issues with speed variations between the shrouds.

This is the problem, Reaper’s Might with Reaper is not too good.

The distinction between grandmaster/master/adept is also an irrelevant one now that you’re committed to an entire line, it doesn’t matter where the traits fall in if you’re going to take that combination regardless.

Being selfish and not contributing to the group is kind of a necro’s thing. Self maintaining 25 might is exactly what we need. Don’t do or say anything to make the devs think otherwise. Unless you are some sort of other class spy trying to get our usefulness removed.

Zenith.7301:

ronpierce.2760:

Zenith.7301:

I mean, why not just buff a deficient trait instead of nerfing another one to make the crappy one look good with the shifted functionality?

This stinks of the same logic they used with rangers.

“Oh, you guys aren’t using longbow? Here, let’s nerf shortbow and see if you guys use longbow.”

No, like I said, you’re still not taking anything I’ve said into consideration. doubling the attack speed of Life blast builds it much faster. I suggested a nerf from 15 to 10-12, which would still technically be faster at building, and only a bit less potent at holding that max stack (so long as you use life blast somewhat frequently, it wouldn’t be a major issue with Runes of Strength), and doesn’t touch Signet might building at all. Technically, this would be MORE reliable, overall, with a faster Life blast. You simply cannot go buffing Life blast and leave the supporting traits alone.

The part where Reaper comes in however, is that I suggest the faster cast Life blast and shorter Duration system over the two-hit Life Blast because with Reaper using a faster attack, Reaper’s Might is too good, and suffers the same balance issue a faster life blast would already, effectively making it better than Chilling victory, which is being held back because of this trait. The faster Life Blast but shorter might idea that I had would keep it relatively close to how it is now for base necromancer (again, given a faster attack speed), but reduce its potency slightly for Reapers, allowing for Chilling Victory to be better balanced and useful as a whole, which is currently, as a Master-Major, getting outshined fairly easily by Reaper’s Might, a minor-adept in spite.

Essentially, two birds with one stone. The two-attack might fix only keeps it the same for base necromancer but does very little to solve further issues with speed variations between the shrouds.

This is the problem, Reaper’s Might with Reaper is not too good.

The distinction between grandmaster/master/adept is also an irrelevant one now that you’re committed to an entire line, it doesn’t matter where the traits fall in if you’re going to take that combination regardless.

As long as it is to gain might with each swing (which is more viable with a re-balance) it’d be perfectly fine. With a 10 second duration even and 45% might duration (14.5 seconds) and Sigil of Strength, you could easily maintain max stacks without even needing the signet trait or Chilling Victory. A rebalance of the trait, however, allows it be more useful for quick build up (both for Necro and Reaper), makes room for Chilling Victory buffs, and most importantly, allows for some trait consistency through both classes (necro/reaper) without needing hidden rules or weird cast times. K.I.S.S, have a good design, and balance around it. No need to have hidden rules or weird tricks to balance traits, it’s just not necessary and only makes it harder moving forward, when the fix is fairly easy and probably necessary anyways.

I’m not real sure what world you guys live in but being able to self sustain 14-15 might on a single adept minor is pretty kitten good as it is, especially when our bulk of damage in shroud actually comes from our auto attack. And even with these changes, you would absolutely not lose that. All I’m suggesting is some normalization and ironing out to make way for a clearer design. Don’t panic, I’m not trying to nerf everyone.

Edit: At this point, I just have to laugh… No one is even considering the math behind what I suggested. Mathematically, very little would change AT ALL. You could maintain the same might as before. You’re DOUBLING the attack speed of Life Blast here, you build it twice as fast, a small duration reduction is not the end of the world, if anything, you’d probably see a net gain in many cases. I’m trying to make the traits more simple and require less wonky considerations for design purposes. You’d build might faster with these changes. Think before you get all crazy and accusing.

You said it’s too good for reapers…. imply a nerf… you’re wrong if that’s the case

Zalavaaris.5329:

You said it’s too good for reapers…. imply a nerf… you’re wrong if that’s the case

Because you’re not reading, too tunnel visioned. I’m not sure what’s true, and why I opted to mostly hold my tongue until I can test Reaper again, but suppestly Reaper’s Might only affects missed attack and/or the final swing. I’m not sure myself, as I’d have to try. However, according to Gee, and really, logic, if doubling Life Blast speed makes it too strong, it would be too strong for Reaper’s Shroud assuming it procced on every hit, using their logic. So if Life Blast needed a reduced duration to match a faster cast speed, so could Reaper’s Shroud. And if it is indeed the case that it only procs on the final swing, the idea is to dissolve any hidden rules. However, simply doubling its effectiveness out-right, yeah, would be a bit much. There’s a lot to consider, but the ultimate goal should always be to make the traits globally effective and as intuitive as possible, hence, why RS and DS should have a (decently) normalized attack speed, so each trait could be expected to work similarly between both shrouds and not breed further confusion.

The bottom line, if you don’t feel like reading anything but the word “nerf”, just read that: it would still maintain similar levels of might, ideally, and actually be ramped up quicker due to a faster attack speed. And CV needs brought up regardless. That should be simple enough to understand as a goal. When change happens, some things may need to be rebalanced, not “nerfed”, but the end goal should always be Good and intuitive design and secondly appropriate balance to match a good design.

I don’t agree that doubling life blasts cast speed (if damage were cut in half) would warrant any changes to traits around the skill. Those traits are why people want the faster attacks. We want faster burning stacks, faster might stacks, faster vuln, etc. Nerfing those at the same time is a side grade and wouldn’t mean jack kitten.

Zalavaaris.5329:

I don’t agree that doubling life blasts cast speed (if damage were cut in half) would warrant any changes to traits around the skill. Those traits are why people want the faster attacks. We want faster burning stacks, faster might stacks, faster vuln, etc. Nerfing those at the same time is a side grade and wouldn’t mean jack kitten.

Reaper’s Might is one of the skills that are actually properly balanced around Life Blast. People want the faster attack for combat consistency reasons and QoL, and Dhuumfire which is undoubtedly balanced around the faster attack speed of Reaper.

Dhuumfire is terrible with standard Life Blast. Reaper’s Might is in a good spot in terms of power (and still actually very good) in terms of Life Blast. Gee originally stated there are a few traits that would have to be toned down to work with a faster Life Blast, and RM is one of them. The faster speed is more aimed as a buff to Condition builds than Power (though, with my suggestion, I actually suggested a slight boost to Life Blast total DPS, which was also ignored), as most of the power-based traits were already functioning fine.

The problem with slow Life Blast has much more to do with how terrible Dhuumfire is with it, which can’t be buffed because of Reaper’s faster attack speed, which is fine because I’d prefer a faster Life Blast anyways, and because of how easily avoidable Shroud damage is when attacking so slow, being highly susceptible to evades and blinds, things of that nature. Traits are only part of the consideration.

Anything we get as necro’s should ONLY be a benefit. Any drawbacks at all won’t help us push our way up the wanted class list. There are so many better pve options than necro and our dps is sometimes half of other classes. Any benefit we get would have to DOUBLE our dps to match some out there. If it’s not doubled by something then that something isn’t even as strong as it should be but it would be useable.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Anything we get as necro’s should ONLY be a benefit. Any drawbacks at all won’t help us push our way up the wanted class list. There are so many better pve options than necro and our dps is sometimes half of other classes. Any benefit we get would have to DOUBLE our dps to match some out there. If it’s not doubled by something then that something isn’t even as strong as it should be but it would be useable.

Okay, the trait itself doesn’t double our DPS. Might has a cap, and with my proposal, your average might stacks wouldn’t be nerfed at all. You’d get there faster. Also, that’s a bit false. Our selfishness is half of what holds us back. We’re balanced around being able to sustain ourself with strong group buffs, which means in groups we have fairly little to gain. We need better multipliers than we need the easiest route to 25 stacks of might ~by far. No amount of capped selfishness will help us grow in ranks, and you can’t have everything. Sometimes you have to realize to grow you have to give up some things, but ironically, I wasn’t even asking for you to give up anything… you’d still average out at a similar amount of Might, only, it would be balanced around faster attacks instead. Not sure if you realize this, but with 15 seconds + 45% duration from Runes of Strength and no other boon duration benefits, you’d get 21.75 seconds of might every .7 seconds (roughly) which means alone the trait could maintain 25 stacks of might with 6+ seconds to spare without ever letting it fall off alone. Think about this logically, as a minor adept, that obviously wouldn’t be okay… It should proc on every Reaper Shroud hit, as well as Life Blast. Life Blast also needs to be faster. So the duration of the might would have to go down slightly to maintain balance. It’s not the end of the world, and is not a nerf just because the duration reduction sounds like a nerf, you have to think of it as a whole and a bit outside of the box.

Robert Gee.9246:

Having condition transfer on shroud was something I was playing with when doing the trait revamp. Plague Sending originally used shroud 1 as its trigger condition rather than critical hit. I ended up changing it because shroud 1 already had several traits that affected it and I didn’t want to overload it, plus the curses line had several traits that affected shroud in some way already. I think it would be a bit overpowered though if Life Blast could transfer conditions on every hit though.

On the topic of increasing the cast speed of Life Blast: I think we would need to lower the damage multiplier if we wanted to increase the cast speed. The damage per second on that skill at its current cast time is already about as high as we are comfortable with. It’s a tricky skill to balance because we’d need to also look at adjusting all the traits that affect it.

Just wanted to chime in here, since I would absolutely love to have the cast time lowered on Life Blast. Agreed that condi transfer is a tad too strong, but lovering the cast would be great since blinds and blocks absolutely destroy the current Life Blast. Bhawb’s suggestion was pretty good so +1 there.

So if i gathered right we have
Bhawb:
Life Blast

• Cast time 1s
• Damage Damage (2x): 246 (1.0)?
• Damage Damage within 600 units. (2x): 345 (1.4)?
  (2x) Burning (3s) : 786
• Might (15s): +30 Power ; +30 Condition damage
• Range: 1,200

Ronpierce:
Life Blast

• Cast time: 1/2s
• Damage Damage : 147 (0.60)?
• Damage Damage within 600 units.: 206 (0.84)?
  # Burning (3s) : 393
• Might (10s): +30 Power ; +30 Condition damage
• Range: 1,200
  
  Both of which are fine suggestions.

I do aggree with Ronpierce on this one, it’s to strong for a adept minor but to be quite honest it easily conflicts with siphoned power. So I suggest scrapping it and changing it something group orientated, a damage modifier or something (like while in DS gain a buff off 10 seconds that gives 5% damage ).

I think Strength of Undeath! should be more than 5%. Its a GM minor and most of those are between 10~15%. That or have its effect doubled when in shroud much like Deadly Strength!

Personally I would cut reapers might to 8s as a base if we increase the attack speed of life blast. The way it stands it lets you cap out might very easily. Either that or totally change its functionality because we have several, and almost to many ways, of gaining might.

We need to see some of our might turned into damage modifiers, even a stacking damage buff would be welcomed, but we can’t keep throwing more and more might/vuln/crit chance at our traits.

Bhawb.7408:

We need to see some of our might turned into damage modifiers, even a stacking damage buff would be welcomed, but we can’t keep throwing more and more might/vuln/crit chance at our traits.

I’m afraid of putting more of that stuff in spite until SR mandatory issue is resolved a bit. I’d be sad if every Reaper was tunneled into Spite/SR/Reaper. That’s my main concern.

ronpierce.2760:

Bhawb.7408:

We need to see some of our might turned into damage modifiers, even a stacking damage buff would be welcomed, but we can’t keep throwing more and more might/vuln/crit chance at our traits.

I’m afraid of putting more of that stuff in spite until SR mandatory issue is resolved a bit. I’d be sad if every Reaper was tunneled into Spite/SR/Reaper. That’s my main concern.

That’s not a problem, just buff deathly chill and scepter a bit. Then we can see some Curses/DM/Reaper for pvp/wvw and some Spite/Curses/Reaper for pve.

ronpierce.2760:

I’m afraid of putting more of that stuff in spite until SR mandatory issue is resolved a bit. I’d be sad if every Reaper was tunneled into Spite/SR/Reaper. That’s my main concern.

Its already there. Our issues in Blood Magic/Death Magic are defensive, changing our offensive traits mechanics won’t change it at all.

They can put offense in those utility lines as well.

Take a page from mesmer’s inspiration, where you’ve got temporal enchanter to increase quickness uptime for your group and grant resistance.

Blood can also compete with Spite/SR if Vampiric Presence is made not total crap (as most our life steals are).

In fact, Blood becomes more attractive than soul reaping in PvE. PvE uses wells. So you’d have Vampiric rituals for prot+cd reduction on wells, a powerful vampiric aura.

Make Blood Bond work off a counter of crits like Chronomancer. On your 3rd crit, you apply Signet of Vampirism.

Alternatively Quickening Thirst can grant a flat 10% attack speed to the necromancer (all weapons and shroud) above the health threshold on top of its current features.

Voila, Blood is now a viable and really attractive PvE specialization.

Death Magic won’t change until minions change. And given that not even ranger pets or mesmer illusions and their related issues with aoe and AI seem to be touched, I wouldn’t bet on minions receiving an overhaul either.

ronpierce.2760:

Bhawb.7408:

We need to see some of our might turned into damage modifiers, even a stacking damage buff would be welcomed, but we can’t keep throwing more and more might/vuln/crit chance at our traits.

I’m afraid of putting more of that stuff in spite until SR mandatory issue is resolved a bit. I’d be sad if every Reaper was tunneled into Spite/SR/Reaper. That’s my main concern.

If you are talking about a pure-DPS PvE Reaper, that will, to the best my knowledge, even be the case today. And the reason is quite simple: both Spite and SR are the only trait lines that provide damage modifiers. Spite when a target has no boons (5%) or when it’s below 50% health(20%), while SR gives a buff (+5%) when life-force is above the threshold.

In terms of Spite I would personally say that there is only one trait that I find debatable, which is “Unholy fervor” in terms of general dmg modifier vs weapon dmg modifier (as it is now). But in general I think we should question more the lack of damage modifiers in other trait lines. If you just take for example the Reaper traitline, I keep wondering why there is no offensive damage modifier against chilled foes.

But for me one of the traitlines that could be used for damage modifiers, as it originally did, but now just proves our problems concerning an overkill of crit. chance, is the curses traitline. If you just look at “Furious Demise” (Why does a necro need to give fury to itself? For me, this is not a boon belonging to the class.) and “Target the Weak” (Now +2% crit chance per condition on the target, previously +2% damage for every condition.) you could ask yourself why we need two minor traits in the same trait line that give increased crit. chance, and why we can’t have a damage modifier that would still belong to the class itself.

Zenith.7301:

They can put offense in those utility lines as well.

While true that isn’t the reason those lines aren’t taken, and it isn’t the way they need to be fixed. Death Magic isn’t taken because for a defensive line it gives extremely mediocre defensive benefits at the master and GM level. Blood I actually think is a pretty strong line right now, but standard Necro builds can’t run support really and that affects blood heavily.

Zenith.7301:

Death Magic won’t change until minions change. And given that not even ranger pets or mesmer illusions and their related issues with aoe and AI seem to be touched, I wouldn’t bet on minions receiving an overhaul either.

Death Magic is only 1/3rd minions, and its minion side of things is great. It is the non-minion traiting that is really suffering right now, and why the trait line is extremely difficult to take on a non MM.

Bluewizard.2694:

ronpierce.2760:

Bhawb.7408:

We need to see some of our might turned into damage modifiers, even a stacking damage buff would be welcomed, but we can’t keep throwing more and more might/vuln/crit chance at our traits.

I’m afraid of putting more of that stuff in spite until SR mandatory issue is resolved a bit. I’d be sad if every Reaper was tunneled into Spite/SR/Reaper. That’s my main concern.

If you are talking about a pure-DPS PvE Reaper, that will, to the best my knowledge, even be the case today. And the reason is quite simple: both Spite and SR are the only trait lines that provide damage modifiers. Spite when a target has no boons (5%) or when it’s below 50% health(20%), while SR gives a buff (+5%) when life-force is above the threshold.

In terms of Spite I would personally say that there is only one trait that I find debatable, which is “Unholy fervor” in terms of general dmg modifier vs weapon dmg modifier (as it is now). But in general I think we should question more the lack of damage modifiers in other trait lines. If you just take for example the Reaper traitline, I keep wondering why there is no offensive damage modifier against chilled foes.

But for me one of the traitlines that could be used for damage modifiers, as it originally did, but now just proves our problems concerning an overkill of crit. chance, is the curses traitline. If you just look at “Furious Demise” (Why does a necro need to give fury to itself? For me, this is not a boon belonging to the class.) and “Target the Weak” (Now +2% crit chance per condition on the target, previously +2% damage for every condition.) you could ask yourself why we need two minor traits in the same trait line that give increased crit. chance, and why we can’t have a damage modifier that would still belong to the class itself.

I tend to agree. Curses and even Death magic could use some damage love. The safe part about this is you can always only ever have so many trait lines at any given time. I believe their intentions were to make Curses a bit more rigged as a condition/crit line, but if you look at Corruption on Revenant which has a damage modifier for conditions maintained, it’s found in the condition/crit line as well.

I believe reverting Target the week into damage modification would be a smart goal, at 1 or 2 percent which follows the goals of Necromancer being the debuffer and doesn’t add to our already bloated Crit sources, and gives us reason to step outside of Spite/SR for damage. Also enhances choice for the reaper on how you want to achieve your damage bonuses.

Ideally, Furious demise would become a 3 second fury on a 3 second pulse while in Shroud and change Target the Weak to a 1% damage modifier per condition on the enemy (maybe 2, but I’m not so sure. I think 1% would do the trick… Haven’t done math on it). Then, like you said, somewhere add a damage boost to attacks on chilled foes in Reaper, likely in addition to Shivers of Dread, which is currently a very lack-luster trait, essentially being a 3 second chill on a 20 second cooldown for anyone not running staff.

Given those changes, we’d might see some other mixes. Still not sure its enough though. The unfortunate part is, it’s really hard to give suggestions and try to keep it within the scope of reality so you’re not blown off, but still make sure it’s enough to make a difference.

I personally feel, and this might just be me, but Necromancer as a whole still feels fairly bloated, which makes taking Reaper feel like you’re giving up a bit too much. I’m probably going to go back into my hole until the next BWE so I can do some further testing before I get in too deep with suggestions. Non-selfish (team oriented) dps definitely needs to go up, and at the same time we may need to lose a tad bit of the selfishness, I just hope something happens, rather than brushing it under the rug and forgetting about it again.

I’m starting being concerned about Spite traitline.

It seems like it just has a bit too much good stuff combined compared to any other traitline aside from SR.
And I don’t like Plague and Spite signets. They’re cheesy.

As for the topic, there are few solutions:

1. Reducing the damage on Life Blast along with cast time and absurd aftercast.

2. Splitting it into 2-3 projectiles hitting one after another, kinda like Shadow Bolt glyph from WoW.

3. Just playing with access to Plague Blast and Curse line giving access and synergy to it – I’d take it, I suggested it more than month ago. Again, Link.

I still think that Underwater Shroud is basically (aside from no gapcloser on #2) the best Shroud with best synergies

Now as for what should be added to it – It should pierce.
That’s pretty much it for me. Keep Vulnerability to traits (and replace piercing there with some unblockable effect).

Cheers

Spite doesn’t have too much. Neither does SR. The other traitlines just need to be brought up to par.

Zenith.7301:

Spite doesn’t have too much. Neither does SR. The other traitlines just need to be brought up to par.

This absolutely. While I do think Spite and SR should maybe have some mechanics shifted around to make it so we don’t have so many traits and mechanics that conflict (like superspeed on speed of shadows, or some damage modifiers instead of vuln/might), they should be the strength standard everything else needs to be brought up to.

Bhawb.7408:

We need to see some of our might turned into damage modifiers, even a stacking damage buff would be welcomed, but we can’t keep throwing more and more might/vuln/crit chance at our traits.

YES so much. Might and all that is nice, it really is, but when you get into a group that’s often provided for you. That’s one of the things necros are being held back with. Modifiers play better into group play.

Bhawb.7408:

Zenith.7301:

Spite doesn’t have too much. Neither does SR. The other traitlines just need to be brought up to par.

This absolutely. While I do think Spite and SR should maybe have some mechanics shifted around to make it so we don’t have so many traits and mechanics that conflict (like superspeed on speed of shadows, or some damage modifiers instead of vuln/might), they should be the strength standard everything else needs to be brought up to.

I could agree with that, so long as there are viable means of not taking them, too. Hence my issue with Vital Persistence. The degeneration fact of this is simply un-matched in any way, and especially in PVP, which is where my main focus is, that’s a locked-necessity in many ways. Spite is debatable in that sense, but I do feel like Chilling Victory should easily be able to give Reaper’s Might a run for its money, which it currently does not.

So, yeah, I agree, ideally, diversity would come from bringing the less desirable lines up to par with Spite/SR, but there are a few tid-bits that should be found more throughout the class or made base-line to better allow for that to happen (biggest issue being Vital Persistance, and too much of our damage coming directly from Spite, and sadly seemingly very little from Curses. Curses could easily have it’s minor traits adjusted to make it a more viable line for boosting Damage without messing up the lines utility considerations.

Also, Bhawb, make sure your in-box is cleared. BWE2 we need to get together again. I’m going to get together with several Necromancers here and we can just sort of bang out some thoughts and see what we can come up with again, but instead of MM related, it will be more generalized.

There’s a lot getting lost in these book-long posts, I feel, and not enough meeting in a middle. I’d like to get a clearer idea for Mr. Gee where we would like to move in direction, though the goal is sort of obvious, the route can easily be make or break.

Zenith.7301:

Spite doesn’t have too much. Neither does SR. The other traitlines just need to be brought up to par.

I don’t call for nerfs either. I feel like it’s a little bit forced on us, though and we’re being balanced around always taking it. Old BPS – best possible scenario.

Spite, at least as a concept, is better . Why? It will synergize with pretty much every build you want. Minors are universal and not restrictive like stat conversion in Curses. You have viable options for most playstyles in every tier and you can collect your 3-trait package with feeling that more or less, you have what you needed.

Take a look at Curses. It’s first tier “choice” is a complete joke unless you plan on running Reaper. Second tier is complete heresy, having a choice between 3 traits Condition Necromancer needs at the same time to perform well.

Third tier again has 2 survivability traits, one doesn’t work. And a trait which is meant to make our DoTs actual DoTs. But…doesn’t really work.

So you come into Curses and as for Condition-themed traitline you never feel like you’ve actually collected your “3 trait package” you needed.

Pretty much the same for Death Magic if you don’t run MM.

I may be overreacting when speaking about Curses, because Condition Necro after Balance update trashed my Power Necro is what I have left, but I miss my old traitline at least.

ronpierce.2760:

Also, Bhawb, make sure your in-box is cleared. BWE2 we need to get together again. I’m going to get together with several Necromancers here and we can just sort of bang out some thoughts and see what we can come up with again, but instead of MM related, it will be more generalized.

There’s a lot getting lost in these book-long posts, I feel, and not enough meeting in a middle. I’d like to get a clearer idea for Mr. Gee where we would like to move in direction, though the goal is sort of obvious, the route can easily be make or break.

How does my inbox keep filling…

But yeah, sounds like a good idea, a cohesive post would be really good for feedback.

I think stuff like Vital Persistence and such mandatory features need to be baked into the core class much like the staff mark size was.

Zenith.7301:

I think stuff like Vital Persistence and such mandatory features need to be baked into the core class much like the staff mark size was.

That’s what I said to Robert Gee, but, again, like anything, if it were to be, there’d have to be nerfs elsewhere to compensate. VP baseline + current spectral trait would likely be too strong, it would need something tuned down a bit, which is why its not such an easy decision.

ronpierce.2760:

Zenith.7301:

I think stuff like Vital Persistence and such mandatory features need to be baked into the core class much like the staff mark size was.

That’s what I said to Robert Gee, but, again, like anything, if it were to be, there’d have to be nerfs elsewhere to compensate. VP baseline + current spectral trait would likely be too strong, it would need something tuned down a bit, which is why its not such an easy decision.

I would prefer making 1% life force (considering vital persistance gives 2% life force/ second) gain baseline and make the cooldown reduction 20%. This way vital persistence is still valuable as a trait but making it less invaluable. Also streamlined cooldown reduction trait.

Tim.6450:

ronpierce.2760:

Zenith.7301:

I think stuff like Vital Persistence and such mandatory features need to be baked into the core class much like the staff mark size was.

That’s what I said to Robert Gee, but, again, like anything, if it were to be, there’d have to be nerfs elsewhere to compensate. VP baseline + current spectral trait would likely be too strong, it would need something tuned down a bit, which is why its not such an easy decision.

I would prefer making 1% life force (considering vital persistance gives 2% life force/ second) gain baseline and make the cooldown reduction 20%. This way vital persistence is still valuable as a trait but making it less invaluable. Also streamlined cooldown reduction trait.

Well my original idea was just simply baseline it and change Speed of shadows to something more valuable, and make Vital Persistence 20% reduced Cooldown on Shroud and Shroud skills. (minor change to flashing but overall, a gain, which also frees up unyielding Blast for PVE usage with flashing). Then hopefully one day have utilities active in Shroud so you can just rely on Dagger or Signet for the 25% movement speed (make dagger trait work in shroud too). That would be ideal to me. No need for 3 different ways to get that 25% speed bonus and all of them be kitten. Then there’d be a more definitive choice between more frequent DS/DS skills or stronger spectral skills and LF gain (soak versus frequency sort of decision) with the fear trait being somewhat of an outlier in terms of use, being the CC defense.

Speed of shadows could be made into just about anything else and be more useful at that point, such as super speed of some sort, or whatever.

VP is good as is, the other traits should be good enough to compete. SM has a very serious position as being the in-combat version of VP.

Bhawb.7408:

VP is good as is, the other traits should be good enough to compete. SM has a very serious position as being the in-combat version of VP.

That may be true, but the couple make leaving SR incredibly hard for PVPers. A base line VP degeneration and slightly reduced LF generation from Spectral Mastery (obviously buffed by the baseline degeneration to balance out) allows more freedom outside of the trait line, which is a fairly significant issue. Inwards, sure it’s not a major issue, while VP still outdoes SM, both hold somewhat of a monopoly on LF management in combat though for the class. And frankly, I just don’t enjoy the 4% degeneration in general as that amount of degeneration can easily interrupt skills (something I had issues with on Reaper when not running it), just added frustrations beyond defensive value.

The difference between a natural degeneration of 2% versus 4% is huge, not just because one doubles your (untouched) duration you can hold Shroud, but you can easily off-set 2% per second in certain builds where 4% leads to an inevitable shroud loss. That’s a huge part of the VP value, being that you can match or even outpace the degeneration when not focused, and of course being sturdier for stomps/rezes etc etc.

Again, my beef with both spawns from how potent they are and necessary for the class, and giving it to other trees would not be the beneficial option, as then you risk unreasonably tanky Shroud-bunkers. I prefer shooting for lessening the extremes.

I wouldn’t mind if Near to Death Shroud CDR was taken from Speed of Shadows and placed in Foot in the Grave trait, since it’s balanced around it anyway.

Then we could maybe make LB pierce by baseline, combine remaining Speed of Shadows mobility increase with Vulnerability and rename it and voila.

We have place for a new trait.

After that we could just merge on-down effect of Fear SR Master Tier to jumping puzzle trait in Curses, replacing CPC and move the fear duration to Terror.

Now we have two places for new traits.

This post has gotten way out of control but i like that people are talking about it. Reapers Might needs to stay just as it is. Even if you spam life blast as much as you cant currently it wont get you 25 stacks i think its generally around 14 to 17 stacks. Syphoned power is what gets you the rest of the way to 25. I don’t know why they think we needed more might in general honestly.

Necromancer is good at holding might and thats all it can hold unlike mesmer and ele (Both light armored professions) they can hold might fairly well along with other vital boons a light armored profession should have. Where is necormancers perma vigor,regen, and fury, all of which ele and mesmers are good at holding along with might.

Chilling victory is a waste if you ask me. The life force generation from hitting a chilled foe has potential but more might… such a waste, remove that might and make it swiftness, vigor, regen or something like that. Necro also needs more boon varation or boon generation needs to be reduced on mesmer and ele. but in the end more might is….. ehhh not really needed if you ask me. These are not the traits that need to be redone its the traits that players will not use.

As far as the vital persistence trait goes its really too good to not take it. If it was made baseline spectral builds would come back I don’t see how this would be too strong as it was a viable trait pattered we saw before the trait patch. You could have vital persistence + spectral mastery at the same time and people ran it all the time. I don’t see why making VP a baseline thing is now considered to be too strong and in need of nerfs when it was already a thing many people pretty much used. I dont know why devs consider that making slight things that should have already been done to necro at this point means they have to take something from it that will hurt it in the long run.

Mean while you have professions like mesmer running around with tools like, super stealth, mirror reflect on evade, blind on evade, blind on shatter, and tons of invulnerability skills. Even ele now has access to super speed on air swap. Necro has yet to see any vital boons or effects like quickness and super speed because of how much they limit it. I took like what 3 years for them to even get 1 source of stability thats not (plague or lichform). I don’t know why they get the idea that necro in general needs to be this slow caster and then they go and give every other profession more quickness and super speed.

Necromancer is probably the most creative profession in the game its very different from the others and the only one that can possibly be as creative and unique is the mesmer (which i personally don’t like i think its a broken profession with a good concept.) Mean while Necro is a good concept but…. its limited so hard by devs its not even funny.

Tim.6450:

I do aggree with Ronpierce on this one, it’s to strong for a adept minor but to be quite honest it easily conflicts with siphoned power. So I suggest scrapping it and changing it something group orientated, a damage modifier or something (like while in DS gain a buff off 10 seconds that gives 5% damage ).

It would be too strong for an adept minor if the system still allowed you to go into a trait line partially without investing in the whole line. However, this isn’t the case so it doesn’t matter if it’s an adept minor or a grand master.

Chilling force needs buffed, not changed. Right now Chilling Force is one of the few things that gives you an option to step away from Spite. Spite (and a little bit Soul Reaping) basically has a monopoly on our damage factors, and Reaper should have some of its own. Regen is half useless (staff covers it, and it’s negated by shroud), Swiftness is easily covered in other ways and isn’t particularly exciting to gain when hitting a chilled foe. Might is actually beneficial for Hybrid/curses Reapers which is specifically why I’d love it to stay Might and be significantly stronger so Reaper can swap with Spite and still have decent synergy with the Soul Reaping/curses comkittenfing Curses/SR/Reaper might gain only further shoves spite down our throats which is not ideal to me. (Mostly because I find Spite incredibly boring and frustrating that it holds most of our damage.)

Spite could use less might but better modifiers, simple as that. No amount of great selfish might will benefit the class in the long run. Similarly, Reapers could use some form of damage modifier against chilled foes tied to Shivers of Dread (since its basically only a 3 second chill on a 20 second cooldown for the base reaper, fairly weak trait that we can’t even opt out of) such at 5% additional damage against chilled targets, and Chilling Victory bumped to 10 second mights, then Reaper would be much better trait-wise.

Losing its might though is not good.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Tim.6450:

I do aggree with Ronpierce on this one, it’s to strong for a adept minor but to be quite honest it easily conflicts with siphoned power. So I suggest scrapping it and changing it something group orientated, a damage modifier or something (like while in DS gain a buff off 10 seconds that gives 5% damage ).

It would be too strong for an adept minor if the system still allowed you to go into a trait line partially without investing in the whole line. However, this isn’t the case so it doesn’t matter if it’s an adept minor or a grand master.

Don’t low levels get adepts only ? I mean it’s not like they immediately to grandmaster? ALso even if the system does not make any major difference between grandmaster and master, it still usefull as some kind of reference tool.

Tim.6450:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Tim.6450:

I do aggree with Ronpierce on this one, it’s to strong for a adept minor but to be quite honest it easily conflicts with siphoned power. So I suggest scrapping it and changing it something group orientated, a damage modifier or something (like while in DS gain a buff off 10 seconds that gives 5% damage ).

It would be too strong for an adept minor if the system still allowed you to go into a trait line partially without investing in the whole line. However, this isn’t the case so it doesn’t matter if it’s an adept minor or a grand master.

Don’t low levels get adepts only ? I mean it’s not like they immediately to grandmaster? ALso even if the system does not make any major difference between grandmaster and master, it still usefull as some kind of reference tool.

Yeah, while it doesn’t “matter” anymore, they still tend to put the big game-changers in the Grandmaster tier, and follow the 5% adept bonus, 7% master bonus and 10% GM bonus with traits that have flat percent bonuses, so they clearly do still take into consideration trait placement.