Vampiric presence ICD?
So, You’re saying that you want vampiric effects to provide 100% benefit to all necromancer weapons and not just the dagger?
#24 leaderboard rank North America.
Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!
Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.
Yeah i would like it to scale more consistently between builds.
As @Drarnor noted, it is fine if it scales imconsistently between builds by itself – it’s the good of.the game after all – when we consider the Necro alone.
But now we have Vampiric Aura affecting more people, who can scale with it in a very very different way – probably some professions do not have even mean to scale it comparably well like others! And even if they scale well is just for a little subset of the possible builds, on this case only those who provide a lot of on hit effects.
And even if you manage to.do a composition that uses it well( not optimally, but well ) it might forsake everything else like a proper tactic.
Now we have only few traits – and i don’ t think it is accetable.to have them usable only fot some fringe cases. Having an internal cooldown gives a lot more cases where is useful ( for example it can be used to enhance the minions with little loss compared to having a full party ).
Also.consider that this trait is balanced around having 5 people affected, and not only necro.
Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!
Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.
In what way does increasing its value but putting an ICD on it not help the lower end of the curve?
Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!
Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.
In what way does increasing its value but putting an ICD on it not help the lower end of the curve?
Because the lower end of the curve is still reliant on being able to hit someone which, between Blinds, blocks, evades, and disables, can be shut down for extended periods.
Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!
Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.
In what way does increasing its value but putting an ICD on it not help the lower end of the curve?
Because the lower end of the curve is still reliant on being able to hit someone which, between Blinds, blocks, evades, and disables, can be shut down for extended periods.
I’m still not getting it. Explain to me how a Gravedigger hitting once every 2 seconds and stealing 400 life is not better than a Gravedigger hitting once every two seconds and stealing 100 life.
An ICD on Vampiric Presence would utterly destroy its scalability and ultimate value for Necromancer both in future challenging content and in current contexts.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
While i am here lemme explain a thing that might got miscommunicated: with ICD i meant that the lifesteal proc provided by the vampiric aura can be procced only once every second for a certain affected unit. Sorry, english is not my main language.
An ICD on Vampiric Presence would utterly destroy its scalability and ultimate value for Necromancer both in future challenging content and in current contexts.
Can you tell me why, posed that the necro gets the ICD and compensation damage? Not being kitteny, asking because posed this way should actually help the overall team damage, making it more useful for all the other party members that do not rely on multi-hits. Take in mind that i am not the best expert regarding dungeons and fractals.
It also helps the Necromancer’ s Life Blast, since is the basic attack for every build that wants to utilize at least minimally the death shroud ( that is a class mechanic, after all ). If we want to be more preventive we can see that Reaper’ s skill 1 gets less benefit from it, but at the same time the greatsword gets more and so is useful again for the Reaper line.
I repeat, my concern is not much about the Necro itself, but the identity of the trait: should this not be picked because you want, besides the lifesteal, to provide a team-wide effect? Many other professions that grant bonuses grants them build-agnostic ( team wide toughness like Guardian, healing like Elementalist and so on ) that might be situationally less or more useful, but benefit everyone the same way.
While I still think Vampiric (not aura) should be flattened out with an ICD + significant buff, Vampiric Aura is meant to be mostly a PvE trait, where multi-hits are the name of the game. You would have to increase its siphon per-hit to be probably 5x its current value to have an ICD work out well, even then I imagine there are a lot of situations in PvE where players can hit more than 5x per second.
The only thing this would benefit is minion builds, which don’t need to be using the trait anyway.
Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!
Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.
In what way does increasing its value but putting an ICD on it not help the lower end of the curve?
Because the lower end of the curve is still reliant on being able to hit someone which, between Blinds, blocks, evades, and disables, can be shut down for extended periods.
I’m still not getting it. Explain to me how a Gravedigger hitting once every 2 seconds and stealing 400 life is not better than a Gravedigger hitting once every two seconds and stealing 100 life.
Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 400 health every 2 seconds is better than Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 100 health, sure. But which is better: Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 400 health or Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 500 health?
This is where ICD’s and siphons don’t mix well: multi-hit abilities. Any time an attack hits more than once, whether it’s on the same target or different ones, an ICD prevents any hits beyond the first from doing anything.
Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!
Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.
In what way does increasing its value but putting an ICD on it not help the lower end of the curve?
Because the lower end of the curve is still reliant on being able to hit someone which, between Blinds, blocks, evades, and disables, can be shut down for extended periods.
I’m still not getting it. Explain to me how a Gravedigger hitting once every 2 seconds and stealing 400 life is not better than a Gravedigger hitting once every two seconds and stealing 100 life.
Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 400 health every 2 seconds is better than Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 100 health, sure. But which is better: Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 400 health or Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 500 health?
This is where ICD’s and siphons don’t mix well: multi-hit abilities. Any time an attack hits more than once, whether it’s on the same target or different ones, an ICD prevents any hits beyond the first from doing anything.
So what you’re saying is that buffing it and adding an ICD will make the best case scenario worse, while making the worst cast/average use scenario better?
Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 400 health every 2 seconds is better than Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 100 health, sure. But which is better: Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 400 health or Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 500 health?
This is where ICD’s and siphons don’t mix well: multi-hit abilities. Any time an attack hits more than once, whether it’s on the same target or different ones, an ICD prevents any hits beyond the first from doing anything.
This is a good point and is what makes me most dubious: how much can it be valuable to have it benefit more spread hits? But then again we fall in the category of somethign that has a really jumpy scaling, and msot of times is almost out of control.
Also, is more valuable in pvp letting it have an ICD? let’ s suppose people hitting in the face nonstop, a VA without ICD would work better only ic a character manages to hit many people, which can be really hard since you might not fight 5 people together in a match.
EDIT: a variant could be that, instead of allowing a single siphon, that all the targets of the next skill that hits an enemy siphon health from all the targets. This however clashes again with an other problem: is this trait supposed to benefit more from large crowds? even tought it is not a bad thing, is a valuable thing to consider and to preserve, in order to find a better way ( if there is a better way where that aspect needs to be removed) ?
(edited by hennrick.4623)
Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 400 health every 2 seconds is better than Gravedigger hitting once and stealing 100 health, sure. But which is better: Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 400 health or Gravedigger hitting five times and stealing 500 health?
This is where ICD’s and siphons don’t mix well: multi-hit abilities. Any time an attack hits more than once, whether it’s on the same target or different ones, an ICD prevents any hits beyond the first from doing anything.
This is a good point and is what makes me most dubious: how much can it be valuable to have it benefit more spread hits? But then again we fall in the category of somethign that has a really jumpy scaling, and msot of times is almost out of control.
Also, is more valuable in pvp letting it have an ICD? let’ s suppose people hitting in the face nonstop, a VA without ICD would work better only ic a character manages to hit many people, which can be really hard since you might not fight 5 people together in a match.
The only issue with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura right now is that they balance it around the best-case scenario instead of the average-case scenario. Yes, it could use a buff, but the basis to how it works is fine as-is.
For PvP, situations where we hit multiple targets are much more common than you give credit for. Happens all the time against Mesmers, frequently in teamfights (yes, Necros do participate in those), and also dealing with times like Lord assaults on Foefire.
The only issue with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura right now is that they balance it around the best-case scenario instead of the average-case scenario. Yes, it could use a buff, but the basis to how it works is fine as-is.
The problem is: how can you buff the average scenario, without buffing the best case scenario? I can imagine some things like having the buff on yourself be more powerful, but solves not everything and sorta defeats the purpose of the trait.
Stuff like ICD could actually greatly help the balance of the game, making more smooth the difference between cases, thus granting a more satisfying power since it becomes easier to balance.
Probably making it too much smooth, however.
Also, we must consider what is the identity of Vampiric Presence. Empowering multi – hit skills? Empowering allies? Giving sustain no matter what?
The only issue with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura right now is that they balance it around the best-case scenario instead of the average-case scenario. Yes, it could use a buff, but the basis to how it works is fine as-is.
The problem is: how can you buff the average scenario, without buffing the best case scenario? I can imagine some things like having the buff on yourself be more powerful, but solves not everything and sorta defeats the purpose of the trait.
Stuff like ICD could actually greatly help the balance of the game, making more smooth the difference between cases, thus granting a more satisfying power since it becomes easier to balance.
Probably making it too much smooth, however.Also, we must consider what is the identity of Vampiric Presence. Empowering multi – hit skills? Empowering allies? Giving sustain no matter what?
Simple: they currently balance around the best-case scenario on the assumption that is the average-case scenario.
Basically, vampiric/vampiric aura (at least on self) are balanced for a 5v1 where only one of the five is actually hitting you. This is the dream scenario, but will literally never happen.
If instead they were balanced around the actual average scenario, then the ideal scenario would actually have awesome results, not just “decent.”
The perfect situation for anything should have awesome results.
Vampiric Aura, since it does give benefits to others, does get trickier.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Simple: they currently balance around the best-case scenario on the assumption that is the average-case scenario.
Basically, vampiric/vampiric aura (at least on self) are balanced for a 5v1 where only one of the five is actually hitting you. This is the dream scenario, but will literally never happen.
If instead they were balanced around the actual average scenario, then the ideal scenario would actually have awesome results, not just “decent.”
The perfect situation for anything should have awesome results.
Vampiric Aura, since it does give benefits to others, does get trickier.
But will leave it undertuned as heck :P And i am not sure if i would like to have such a niche trait when i have only 3 to pick from.
And the others are 1) that empowers warhorn and 2) that gives istant aoe heal for full supports.
So if i want to use a trait line either i have to use warhorn ( and not use focus, for example ) or i have to invest a lot of power budget into supportive power ( and i am not sure how much is that powerful ) bound to flashing my DS, so i can’ t use properly my DS itself. At the same time Vampiric presence does not scale well with DS of its own because the auto attack is slow and the multi hits are few ( even tought with reaper they scale up by a lot).
if ICD is out of discussion, what about making it scale with cast speed? sure, there are utilities that might skew that a bit but shiuld be still farr less skewed compared to live.
if ICD is out of discussion, what about making it scale with cast speed? sure, there are utilities that might skew that a bit but shiuld be still farr less skewed compared to live.
Could be even worse. Take a look at Grasping Dead compared to Well of Suffering. Well of Suffering not only casts faster, but also hits five times as much. Or compare Volley (Warrior Rifle 3) to Rapid Fire. Same cast time, but Rapid Fire has 3 additional strikes. Plus, how would Quickness and Slow factor in?
An ICD on Vampiric Presence makes more sense than one on Vampiric, don’t get me wrong, but realistically speaking, the only thing that needs to happen is that it gets balanced around average situations rather than the perfect one.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
You want to homogenize a trait so it works really well on every build. This would reduce strategic depth. The more you homogenize mechanics the more every build becomes similar and you lose gameplay variety.
This is a simple case of op being kitten cause his life blast,staff,great sword ain’t stealing as much as dagger horn- you know what, specific weapon/ ability r suppose to yield better results over others when you combine it with traits that have synergy with said weapon/ability. Making vampiric presence the equivalent of a consumeable buff is- in my words: uncreative and stupid
Edit: comon guys, it’s a thread that wants to slap ICD on necro traits, this guy must be a spy from ele/Mesmer/guardian forums do not heed this blasphemer
Life blast should hit twice and have its damage halfed
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
(edited by Zantmar.5406)
Can you tell me why, posed that the necro gets the ICD and compensation damage?
Because of multi-hit attacks used both by the Necromancer and other classes. Things like Hundred Blades and Life Siphon and Life Transfer and even combining Lava Font with Meteor Shower will be severely limited by the change. Limiting those skills’ interaction with Vampiric Presence, even with higher numbers on the life steal, will make the functionality ultimately worthless in scaled PvE team combat (ie. raids).
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
This is a simple case of op being kitten cause his life blast,staff,great sword ain’t stealing as much as dagger horn- you know what, specific weapon/ ability r suppose to yield better results over others when you combine it with traits that have synergy with said weapon/ability. Making vampiric presence the equivalent of a consumeable buff is- in my words: uncreative and stupid
Edit: comon guys, it’s a thread that wants to slap ICD on necro traits, this guy must be a spy from ele/Mesmer/guardian forums do not heed this blasphemer
kmon everyone know i am a pony.
…blasphemies aside, yes my proposal reduces sinergies with necro itself, but not because i want the trait to work with every weapon or stuff: i like traits that open up peculiar sinergies.
My point was that as long it affected the necro only it was fine to treat it this way, but now that can affect multiple targets needs to be more consistent in what it does give, and cannot be considered anymore necro-centered only ( like communal defenses or shooting mist) . The fact that it works also for other weapons is an added plus.
Sure thing there can also be team sinergies, which is cool, but how many are effective at which level, and what do they pay for that in order for it to be valuable? Because if only few pocket team compositions sinergize so well that they hold the power down for the majority of cases, then we have an issue.
Maybe adding an ICD on lifesteal or other limitation is not the best approach, it’ s just an opinion of me random dude on internet, but still the problem lingers and i tried to solve it with reason.
Can you tell me why, posed that the necro gets the ICD and compensation damage?
Because of multi-hit attacks used both by the Necromancer and other classes. Things like Hundred Blades and Life Siphon and Life Transfer and even combining Lava Font with Meteor Shower will be severely limited by the change. Limiting those skills’ interaction with Vampiric Presence, even with higher numbers on the life steal, will make the functionality ultimately worthless in scaled PvE team combat (ie. raids).
So you are telling me what, no matter what, there are not team compositions that benefit so much more from this trait that it “gimps” it balance wise?
Is it totally probable, don’ t get me wrong, just asking for more clarity. Is not totally impossible since the builds for pve are so very restricted and you see the same stuff ( like Thousand strikes as you said).
What about having the lifestial modified based on base cast time of the skill? Think that would have problems too?
(edited by hennrick.4623)
if ICD is out of discussion, what about making it scale with cast speed? sure, there are utilities that might skew that a bit but shiuld be still farr less skewed compared to live.
Could be even worse. Take a look at Grasping Dead compared to Well of Suffering. Well of Suffering not only casts faster, but also hits five times as much. Or compare Volley (Warrior Rifle 3) to Rapid Fire. Same cast time, but Rapid Fire has 3 additional strikes. Plus, how would Quickness and Slow factor in?
An ICD on Vampiric Presence makes more sense than one on Vampiric, don’t get me wrong, but realistically speaking, the only thing that needs to happen is that it gets balanced around average situations rather than the perfect one.
the concept around that idea is that, since you don’ t lose time that you could spend hitting, you deserve the damage you get with that cast speed.
Basically takes the actual VA and makes it so, no matter the speed, remains impactful somewhat the same. It does not follow anymore the logic of “hitting a lot, no matter what”, but one of “how much i hit with a dedicated time” one. For example Gravedigger would benefit greatly from this, as well hammer guardian users, without removing the power that you can get from quick multi-hit skills ( well, maybe a bit due to balance since it would be far easier to reach an optimal scenario ).
I am not sure how to explain it well, i miss words :\
Slow and celerity and other buffs ( like the ranger trait that increases LB attack speed if i remember right ) would not affect the damage ( but yes the dps, since you attack faster or slower) to keep things consistent between casts of the same skill ( after all, why increasing attack speed temporary should reduce my benefit from something else? A buff remains a buff, a debuff a debuff ).
EDIT: wait wait i now understood what you meant! Basically, if you have a slow-casting, multi-hitting skill that would do a lot of damage AND do a lot of hits.
This would mean that the trait has the power shifted, and not anymore balanced! which, in afirness, is bad.
Also there are upkeep and channel skills that should require a different treatment ( like thousands blades). In the example you listed i would be fine if the 3-hit slow casing skill benefitted fully from hits and casts, after all is a skill with a cooldown, but is a thing to keep in mind for reference.
Any more toughts more pvp focused?
(edited by hennrick.4623)
After reading the responses so far, I’m in favor of an ICD per target hit for Vampiric Presence (not for Vampiric). As ostensibly a support ability, an effort should be made to balance the trait in such a way that it will have a relatively homogeneous usefulness for your allies; in other words, your allies shouldn’t have to build a certain way to take fair advantage of its benefits. While many builds have multi-hit effects, few specifically attempt to maximize the number of hits they can dish out (particularly since that leaves you vulnerable to Retaliation), which makes the usefulness of Vampiric Presence highly (and arbitrarily) variable. Increasing the numbers four- or even fivefold would help even out the trait’s usefulness for the average team. This would also have the benefit of increasing the size of the green numbers popping up on your allies’ screens, which would therefore make the trait easier for them to appreciate as well. Finally, this would help make the trait a bit more attractive for non-D/W Necro builds, putting us a step closer to better build diversity.
That said, a case could be made that this would result in an inferior best-case scenario for vampire Necro builds, which aren’t exactly breaking the game at the moment. I can think of two ways to fix this: either we increase the lifesteal proc to match a fairly best-case scenario rather than simply by 4-5 times the current amount, or we make the aura other-ally-only and give the Necro a different/better version. Maybe the Necro gets the higher proc amount from the first hit per target per second (like everyone else) but can siphon additional amounts at the current rates if they hit past 4-5 times before the next second comes around. Or to keep it simpler, maybe a Necro with Vampiric Presence buffs their own siphons or just Vampiric trait by some amount in addition to getting the proc everyone else gets.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
The only thing this would benefit is minion builds, which don’t need to be using the trait anyway.
Why is this? Are Minions not affected by this trait?
“Be like water” – Bruce Lee
So you are telling me what, no matter what, there are not team compositions that benefit so much more from this trait that it “gimps” it balance wise?
Is it totally probable, don’ t get me wrong, just asking for more clarity. Is not totally impossible since the builds for pve are so very restricted and you see the same stuff ( like Thousand strikes as you said).
What about having the lifestial modified based on base cast time of the skill? Think that would have problems too?
Almost every DPS class relies on frequently hitting an enemy with as much damage as possible. Almost every DPS rotation involves multiple hits in fast succession, which is what makes no ICD so strong. The DPS meta is so good right now that even if Vampiric Presence’s life steal were triple what it currently is, with an ICD per player it wouldn’t scale well enough and the Necromancer simply wouldn’t get used instead of changing the rest of the meta. The only way to make an ICD Vampiric Presence good would be to make it so incredibly strong that it was doing something like 2k DPS on its own per player… And ANet will never balance it like that because that’s pretty overpowered.
I also think ANet will opt to avoid added complexity to this trait. Why would they modify the lifesteal for the cast time of the skill when they can just balance it to work on every strike? They always go for the simpler, easier to understand approach. That’s good for the game.
Why is this? Are Minions not affected by this trait?
Because minions attack slowly enough that every hit would still steal life, and the amount stolen would be higher due to this suggestion.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Almost every DPS class relies on frequently hitting an enemy with as much damage as possible. Almost every DPS rotation involves multiple hits in fast succession, which is what makes no ICD so strong. The DPS meta is so good right now that even if Vampiric Presence’s life steal were triple what it currently is, with an ICD per player it wouldn’t scale well enough and the Necromancer simply wouldn’t get used instead of changing the rest of the meta. The only way to make an ICD Vampiric Presence good would be to make it so incredibly strong that it was doing something like 2k DPS on its own per player… And ANet will never balance it like that because that’s pretty overpowered.
I also think ANet will opt to avoid added complexity to this trait. Why would they modify the lifesteal for the cast time of the skill when they can just balance it to work on every strike? They always go for the simpler, easier to understand approach. That’s good for the game.
I agree that making it work on skill cast/damage interval would be a mess of a work ( not hard, but really extensive) and not the best course of action for the inteded results.
I can take for granted that every profession focuses on multi-hits ( even the reaper is going to have quick hitters in its kitten nal, like the reaper shroud ) since it is really reasonable as long as the dps meta holds; i can imagine that raids will necessitate at some point of different users than pure dps, but since the trait affects only 5 party members out of 10 then probably it can be managaed to work essentially on the damage-doers ( even tought i expect it to be a little messy since you can’ t select who).
There is still a problem pve-wise however: the same place is contested with the Warhorn trait, and no matter what only the one that is matematically superior to the other will be picked, if the blood line is chosen, since even tought mechanically different they serve a very similar purpose, minus the sustain in one and soft cc in the other. Hopefully the addition of defiance will make this choice more important in pve, even tought i expect VP to be lackluster again if things stay the same.
Posed this, it leads me then to think more pvp/wvw wise where is way less expected to encounter people that maximize on hits like in pve, and where this trait has big problems in team composition and where an ICD or some control of the likes might help a lot.
You are telling me that you are trying to fix vampiric presence? And you are adding ICD on per target hit? And for necromancer it self only, What is the point in this? What kind of fixing is this? You are limiting the effect of a necro trait on a necro, the heresy you are spewing is incredible.
Necro blood magic siphoning is a offensive+ defensive mechanic : let me break it down for you:
On the offensive side- it’s a flat damage boost to your hits
On the defensive side- it’s a heal per hit
It is a unique mechanic in that it’s not a % increase in direct damage dealt but happens on a per hit basis
It scales in that if you are able to hit multiple targets, u get multiple damage+heal procs
First you suggested a ICD for the trait so you just tried destroy a scaling ability on a necro and make it a single target thing which is basically a kittenty sigil or a food buff.
Now u backed off and suggest ICD per target which is by far- the most useless, again USELESS suggestion which, all you have done is- making multi hit suck with this trait.
It seems to me that you really, Hate multi hit skills consider multiple necro wells, locust swarm, life transfer, and may others.
What you are trying to do is not fixing a problem, it’s screwing one of necro’ scaling defense
You are now, in my eyes, a Mesmer Spy who finds the fact that necrosnbut getting health from Multiple clones hurting your butt
Life blast should hit twice and have its damage halfed
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
Why is this? Are Minions not affected by this trait?
Minion builds are some of the slowest hitting builds, since all minions attack less than once per second, so an ICD wouldn’t affect them much. They also don’t have wells, or anything else like that except Locust Swarm that’ll cause an ICD to be an issue.
Naieve Bhawb your bone fiend’ auto attach is a double hit
Life blast should hit twice and have its damage halfed
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
And any balanced ICD on VP would far more than double the siphon, making it a net buff even on Bone Fiend.
You are now, in my eyes, a Mesmer Spy who finds the fact that necrosnbut getting health from Multiple clones hurting your butt
… do you want to know the truth?
I am a necro. But i am a cabbage head.
MUHUHUAHHAHAHAH HAIL MORDREMOTH and his minions that won’ t get afflicted by multiple hits of VP!
/joke
One thing that bugs me, also, is how would a trait like this work for builds that are support-based in pvp.
You might say “but necro support is kitten!” and i agree, but havins some possibilities open, if they don’ì t cost anything, won’ t hurt. Or i am being too much greedy?
(edited by hennrick.4623)
Necro support is not kitten In pvp, u get transfusion and downed state loose no health thing. These are extremely valueale
Let’s not forget that necros still gets focused which is preventing your engi,ele,ranger,anything from getting the to use Fire XD
Life blast should hit twice and have its damage halfed
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
If Rocket Charge is only 2 leaps then it should look like 2 leaps
True Shot should be cast on the move
Simply put, because any ICD negates the ability for it to scale. Any build gets a pretty decent heal off of Life Transfer or Soul Spiral with Vampiric/Vampiric Aura traits, so this isn’t that any build can’t use it well. Sure, some builds can use it better, but that should always be the case. You invest in using something more effectively, it should be more effective!
Life Siphon will always be a volatile mechanic, but all that putting an ICD on it does is chop off the upper end of the bell curve. It doesn’t flatten it or help the lower end in any way.
Yesterday after I saw this thread get hit by this Drarnor-hammer I thought: that’s it, I won’t see this on the front page again…
Seriously, how is this even a discussion? More icds and rng? PLEASE no. Not for Vamp Aura and especially not for Vampiric. If anything we should remove icds from other traits.
Yesterday after I saw this thread get hit by this Drarnor-hammer I thought: that’s it, I won’t see this on the front page again…
Seriously, how is this even a discussion? More icds and rng? PLEASE no. Not for Vamp Aura and especially not for Vampiric. If anything we should remove icds from other traits.
why rng? there is no rng here.
and why no ICD? it’ s a good way to better identify/play/scale traits sometimes
Because minions attack slowly enough that every hit would still steal life, and the amount stolen would be higher due to this suggestion.
Minion builds are some of the slowest hitting builds, since all minions attack less than once per second, so an ICD wouldn’t affect them much. They also don’t have wells, or anything else like that except Locust Swarm that’ll cause an ICD to be an issue.
That’s still not really what I was asking about. I understand having a higher siphon/ICD attachment would help because they are slow hitters, but Bhawb, you mentioned that a MM should not be using this trait at all. That’s what I’m asking about. Why did you state that?
“Be like water” – Bruce Lee
Oh, because either Banshee’s Wail or Life from Death are way better. Vampiric Presence is 37 damage per hit, meaning with a minion build, you’re looking at a DPS increase of 165 assuming ideal minion uptime and you personally proc it twice a second, which is realistically never going to be sustained.
In a Spite build, this is a really small addition, since you’ll be blowing up your bone minions which drops it to a max sustained DPS gain of around 145, which is really mediocre. A Soul Reaping build gets more DPS out of it (back to the 165ish range), but again you have bigger priorities. Consider that in a minion build, VP is half the siphoning of Vampiric for minions, and equals your own proccing, so in a best-case situation VP is essentially a second adept trait.
However, the most important thing is the alternatives. Life from Death is a 2.5k AoE heal on DS entry, which is really important since you will already be weaving DS for Beyond the Veil/Transfusion and other CDs (depending on RS vs DS). This is a massive improvement over VP, where the healing on the minions is quite low for each minion (from 12-31 per second), and the DPS gain is also quite small. Essentially you are trading 120-310 heal/damage for a 2.5k heal, on everything affected over the same time period. This is exactly what you want, since your biggest threat as an MM isn’t needing to kill people faster, but keep the minions alive longer. If minions don’t die, especially to AoE (hello LfD), you aren’t realistically going to lose a 1v1 matchup that you’d win had you taken VP.
Basically, if you want to just have a better version of VP, pick up Life from Death, which is a straight upgrade for MM builds as it stands now because healing is more important than a small bit of additional DPS. BW is an alternative choice if you need it.
Oh, because either Banshee’s Wail or Life from Death are way better. Vampiric Presence is 37 damage per hit, meaning with a minion build, you’re looking at a DPS increase of 165 assuming ideal minion uptime and you personally proc it twice a second, which is realistically never going to be sustained.
In a Spite build, this is a really small addition, since you’ll be blowing up your bone minions which drops it to a max sustained DPS gain of around 145, which is really mediocre. A Soul Reaping build gets more DPS out of it (back to the 165ish range), but again you have bigger priorities. Consider that in a minion build, VP is half the siphoning of Vampiric for minions, and equals your own proccing, so in a best-case situation VP is essentially a second adept trait.
However, the most important thing is the alternatives. Life from Death is a 2.5k AoE heal on DS entry, which is really important since you will already be weaving DS for Beyond the Veil/Transfusion and other CDs (depending on RS vs DS). This is a massive improvement over VP, where the healing on the minions is quite low for each minion (from 12-31 per second), and the DPS gain is also quite small. Essentially you are trading 120-310 heal/damage for a 2.5k heal, on everything affected over the same time period. This is exactly what you want, since your biggest threat as an MM isn’t needing to kill people faster, but keep the minions alive longer. If minions don’t die, especially to AoE (hello LfD), you aren’t realistically going to lose a 1v1 matchup that you’d win had you taken VP.
Basically, if you want to just have a better version of VP, pick up Life from Death, which is a straight upgrade for MM builds as it stands now because healing is more important than a small bit of additional DPS. BW is an alternative choice if you need it.
Ahh, that makes sense. I suspected it was LfD, but wasn’t sure. I haven’t been on my MM necro since the trait changes until recently.
Thanks for clearing it up.
“Be like water” – Bruce Lee
presses F to revive downed thread
This leaves a question: what is vampiric presence? what purpose does it serve?
Because looking at the trait line and what does it give, you have better gains almost everytime you pick something else ( without having to deal with team sinergy issues ), at least for pvp.
I mean feels a lot like a bard class of all the old D&D versions: looks cool but can’ t live up to expectations, unless in few cases ( for pvp, for pve is yet another damage source with a bit of sustain that probably is not even wanted).
What do you think VP should do?
I have a better idea. Make life stealing scale exclusively with healing power, make it so its low end is around 30 and high around 120 with max healing. Change Vampiric Presence to cause you to share Vampiric rather than stacking twice. Have life stealing be effected by poison reducing both sides of its scaling. And lastly, profit.
Also, life stealing scales really well with other weapons outside of dagger. Axe and staff do really well in PvE in this aspect.