Guild Wars 2

so im almost finished with my Power Reaper Build but got stuck…

2500 armor and 30.000 HP

OR

3000 armor and 25.000 HP

???

both toughnes and Vitality increases the effectivenes of deathshroud in different ways that my build revolves arround…..

i Mostly WvW

Opinions ???

If in doubt always choose vitality. Tougness is useless against condis, your ability to remove condis in shroud is very limited.

Vitality also fight conditions and affect your amount of LF, then Vitality is better.

Could you link your build ? I´m highly interested how it actually looks like.

On Necro, Vitality is a bit better than Toughness when you have them that close. Optimal ratio is 1 armor/10 health, but since life force pool scales off of health, it tweaks the ratio. Also, Vitality will improve max barrier, though I doubt that will come up often.

the thing is Toughness also work on the Necro shroud soooo yeah….

Toughness applies while in Shroud, yes, but the ratio gets thrown off because a Necro gets more out of Vitality than other professions do.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Toughness applies while in Shroud, yes, but the ratio gets thrown off because a Necro gets more out of Vitality than other professions do.

So does toughness because it applies on the second Health bar also Technicaly decreasing how fast people take it down….. just like vitality but in a different way….

you see this is why im lost x.x

a little toughness is fine but remember mobs agro to the higher toughness. toughness will do little good if every mob focuses you. my friend is running a clerics and he draws the agro from my guardian because his toughness is way higher.

I play power necro in wvw a lot, and I find having about equal amounts of vitality and toughness to be the way to take the most power based hits. If conditions concern you, swapping some toughness to vitality will leave you more vulnerable to power based damage, but less so to conditions.

The new barrier mechanic scales of vitality.

Hesacon.8735:

I play power necro in wvw a lot, and I find having about equal amounts of vitality and toughness to be the way to take the most power based hits. If conditions concern you, swapping some toughness to vitality will leave you more vulnerable to power based damage, but less so to conditions.

The new barrier mechanic scales of vitality.

vitality only determines max barrier based on the recipients max health, the amount of barrier granted is based on healing power of the skill user

sylvnfox.7086:

Hesacon.8735:

I play power necro in wvw a lot, and I find having about equal amounts of vitality and toughness to be the way to take the most power based hits. If conditions concern you, swapping some toughness to vitality will leave you more vulnerable to power based damage, but less so to conditions.

The new barrier mechanic scales of vitality.

vitality only determines max barrier based on the recipients max health, the amount of barrier granted is based on healing power of the skill user

The scourge is a recipient.

Hesacon.8735:

sylvnfox.7086:

Hesacon.8735:

I play power necro in wvw a lot, and I find having about equal amounts of vitality and toughness to be the way to take the most power based hits. If conditions concern you, swapping some toughness to vitality will leave you more vulnerable to power based damage, but less so to conditions.

The new barrier mechanic scales of vitality.

vitality only determines max barrier based on the recipients max health, the amount of barrier granted is based on healing power of the skill user

The scourge is a recipient.

yes but scourge skill put barrier on others as well, so if I grant YOU barrier YOUR max barrier will be 50% of YOUR health which is increased by YOUR vitality MY healing power determines how much of YOUR barrier is filled.

sylvnfox.7086:

Hesacon.8735:

sylvnfox.7086:

Hesacon.8735:

I play power necro in wvw a lot, and I find having about equal amounts of vitality and toughness to be the way to take the most power based hits. If conditions concern you, swapping some toughness to vitality will leave you more vulnerable to power based damage, but less so to conditions.

The new barrier mechanic scales of vitality.

vitality only determines max barrier based on the recipients max health, the amount of barrier granted is based on healing power of the skill user

The scourge is a recipient.

yes but scourge skill put barrier on others as well, so if I grant YOU barrier YOUR max barrier will be 50% of YOUR health which is increased by YOUR vitality MY healing power determines how much of YOUR barrier is filled.

It sounds like you’re agreeing with my point.

Necro already has the most HP in the game so Vitality is not too useful. Also, our heals are pretty bad, we just can’t heal up a huge HP pool. On the other hand, we wear Light armor and therefore more Toughness is better, it makes Shroud last longer because you take less damage, obviously. I’ve been maining a Knight-Cavalier Necro since forever (Toughness main stat) and I LOVE it. Conditions are not an issue, I use Suffer! and Shrouded Removal. I don’t know about Scourge, I will stick with Reaper for sure.

Mea.5491:

Necro already has the most HP in the game so Vitality is not too useful. Also, our heals are pretty bad, we just can’t heal up a huge HP pool. On the other hand, we wear Light armor and therefore more Toughness is better, it makes Shroud last longer because you take less damage, obviously. I’ve been maining a Knight-Cavalier Necro since forever (Toughness main stat) and I LOVE it. Conditions are not an issue, I use Suffer! and Shrouded Removal. I don’t know about Scourge, I will stick with Reaper for sure.

vitality on necro increases the life force pool meaning you can stay in life force longer. also toughness draws agro so you will be focused by more mobs running toughness. if your not running a shroud build and life force doesn’t matter to you and you solo then yes toughness better for you, but if you use shroud and do group play in pve (dungeons and fractals) or especially raids you don’t want toughness at all or very little. it all depends on your game mode and play style really

sylvnfox.7086:

vitality on necro increases the life force pool meaning you can stay in life force longer. also toughness draws agro so you will be focused by more mobs running toughness. if your not running a shroud build and life force doesn’t matter to you and you solo then yes toughness better for you, but if you use shroud and do group play in pve (dungeons and fractals) or especially raids you don’t want toughness at all or very little. it all depends on your game mode and play style really

I know. But if you have no Toughness that means you take more damage in Shroud and therefore it drains faster. I prefer having a smaller HP/Shroud pool but taking less damage. In the end, it’s the same: you have more life force but also take more damage or you have less life force but take less damage. A smaller pool is always easier to heal up/maintain.

Toughness aggro might be a thing in Raids and Fractals, I don’t know, because I never do them. But in open world PvE (like DS meta), I do not get aggroed more often than others and I wear Toughness as a main stat.

A smaller pool is always easier to heal up/maintain.

This would only apply to health. Shroud is always gained as a % of its max.

Damage mitigation is multiplicative. The more individual sources you have the less effective the next one is overall comparatively.

Mea.5491:

sylvnfox.7086:

vitality on necro increases the life force pool meaning you can stay in life force longer. also toughness draws agro so you will be focused by more mobs running toughness. if your not running a shroud build and life force doesn’t matter to you and you solo then yes toughness better for you, but if you use shroud and do group play in pve (dungeons and fractals) or especially raids you don’t want toughness at all or very little. it all depends on your game mode and play style really

I know. But if you have no Toughness that means you take more damage in Shroud and therefore it drains faster. I prefer having a smaller HP/Shroud pool but taking less damage. In the end, it’s the same: you have more life force but also take more damage or you have less life force but take less damage. A smaller pool is always easier to heal up/maintain.

Toughness aggro might be a thing in Raids and Fractals, I don’t know, because I never do them. But in open world PvE (like DS meta), I do not get aggroed more often than others and I wear Toughness as a main stat.

I know toughness agro in pve is a thing because I duo the story with a friend who is running clerics gear, I’m running marauders and all the mobs go strait for him and I have to work to keep them off him. also think of vitality vs. toughness like this… conditions ignore toughness completely but vitality gives more health for the condies AND direct damage to eat through. I use to think the same as you do, toughness > vitality, but playing the game for over 4 years i’ve learned the value of vitality over toughness. even my friend after 3 years wants to reduce his toughness in exchange for vitality. don’t get me wrong I still run toughness on my necro but I run much more vitality.

sylvnfox.7086:

I know toughness agro in pve is a thing because I duo the story with a friend who is running clerics gear, I’m running marauders and all the mobs go strait for him and I have to work to keep them off him. also think of vitality vs. toughness like this… conditions ignore toughness completely but vitality gives more health for the condies AND direct damage to eat through. I use to think the same as you do, toughness > vitality, but playing the game for over 4 years i’ve learned the value of vitality over toughness. even my friend after 3 years wants to reduce his toughness in exchange for vitality. don’t get me wrong I still run toughness on my necro but I run much more vitality.

Hm, interesting. I always solo my story missions so I didn’t know about that. But I’ve been playing since beta and I prefer Toughness. I would never switch. I only use Vitality on professions with low HP. But hey, everyone’s different, if you like Vitality then have fun with it! One of the best things about this game is the stat freedom.

Mea.5491:

sylvnfox.7086:

I know toughness agro in pve is a thing because I duo the story with a friend who is running clerics gear, I’m running marauders and all the mobs go strait for him and I have to work to keep them off him. also think of vitality vs. toughness like this… conditions ignore toughness completely but vitality gives more health for the condies AND direct damage to eat through. I use to think the same as you do, toughness > vitality, but playing the game for over 4 years i’ve learned the value of vitality over toughness. even my friend after 3 years wants to reduce his toughness in exchange for vitality. don’t get me wrong I still run toughness on my necro but I run much more vitality.

Hm, interesting. I always solo my story missions so I didn’t know about that. But I’ve been playing since beta and I prefer Toughness. I would never switch. I only use Vitality on professions with low HP. But hey, everyone’s different, if you like Vitality then have fun with it! One of the best things about this game is the stat freedom.

and on that I 100% agree ^^

Fun fact: at level 80 Exotic gear, Necros are already at that golden ratio I mentioned earlier (1 armor/10 health). This would normally mean that improving Toughness or Vitality would have the same effect on your effective HP.

I still say that if you have to be a bit unbalanced, that Vitality is the way to lean towards, since Life Force scales directly with it and is always gained as a percentage of max. Plus, it’s easier to get other sources of physical damage reduction from sources other than Toughness than to gain more health/life force.

Mea.5491:

sylvnfox.7086:

I know toughness agro in pve is a thing because I duo the story with a friend who is running clerics gear, I’m running marauders and all the mobs go strait for him and I have to work to keep them off him. also think of vitality vs. toughness like this… conditions ignore toughness completely but vitality gives more health for the condies AND direct damage to eat through. I use to think the same as you do, toughness > vitality, but playing the game for over 4 years i’ve learned the value of vitality over toughness. even my friend after 3 years wants to reduce his toughness in exchange for vitality. don’t get me wrong I still run toughness on my necro but I run much more vitality.

Hm, interesting. I always solo my story missions so I didn’t know about that. But I’ve been playing since beta and I prefer Toughness. I would never switch. I only use Vitality on professions with low HP. But hey, everyone’s different, if you like Vitality then have fun with it! One of the best things about this game is the stat freedom.

The problem isn’t necros high base hp, the problem is necro’s main defensive mechanic scales with vitatility. Which mean vitality will ALWAYS be slight more beneficial to a necro.

The “only using vitality on low hp classes” scthik is thrown out the window when a classes main mechanic scales with vitality.

FrostDraco.8306:

Mea.5491:

sylvnfox.7086:

I know toughness agro in pve is a thing because I duo the story with a friend who is running clerics gear, I’m running marauders and all the mobs go strait for him and I have to work to keep them off him. also think of vitality vs. toughness like this… conditions ignore toughness completely but vitality gives more health for the condies AND direct damage to eat through. I use to think the same as you do, toughness > vitality, but playing the game for over 4 years i’ve learned the value of vitality over toughness. even my friend after 3 years wants to reduce his toughness in exchange for vitality. don’t get me wrong I still run toughness on my necro but I run much more vitality.

Hm, interesting. I always solo my story missions so I didn’t know about that. But I’ve been playing since beta and I prefer Toughness. I would never switch. I only use Vitality on professions with low HP. But hey, everyone’s different, if you like Vitality then have fun with it! One of the best things about this game is the stat freedom.

The problem isn’t necros high base hp, the problem is necro’s main defensive mechanic scales with vitatility. Which mean vitality will ALWAYS be slight more beneficial to a necro.

The “only using vitality on low hp classes” scthik is thrown out the window when a classes main mechanic scales with vitality.

okay so i finished my build

everything people talk about in here is false atleast most of it….

i was running high vitality builds on my Necro for years now…
since the shroud changes i thrown the soul reaping trait line into the trash and picked up Death magic….. also removed all the vitality from my gear and exchanged it to Toughness…

and HOLY HELL its waaaaaaaaaay better tankier….. i have 20k HP instead of 30k but i sure as hell can take waaaaaaaaay more.. both in shroud and outside of it…
I can actualy somewhat survive thiefs multiple openings before they take me down….

compared to the 30k HP they literaly instantly chewed through before….
same with facetanking Bosses and mechanics etc…..

For Necro toughness is just Better then vitality…..
what people forget is that toughness also douple tips from shroud just like Vitality just in a different way……

im never going back to vitality except if they add some realy strong extra something to Shroud and vitality…

One thing i think needs to be clear is why people want to say vitality is better. While toughness is useful the amount of damage reduction doesn’t change based on how much health you have. Because of this it is no more useful on a necromancer than any other class.
Vitality on the other hand increases your health pool. which increases life force due to it being based on your health. Because of this vitality is 1.69 times more effective on a necromancer than other classes.
This doesn’t mean it is automatically better than toughness, but is why instinct would lead some to believe that without testing it. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that your specific situation and what kind of content you are playing will have a big effect on what stat is most useful.

Zoltreez.6435:

FrostDraco.8306:

Mea.5491:

sylvnfox.7086:

I know toughness agro in pve is a thing because I duo the story with a friend who is running clerics gear, I’m running marauders and all the mobs go strait for him and I have to work to keep them off him. also think of vitality vs. toughness like this… conditions ignore toughness completely but vitality gives more health for the condies AND direct damage to eat through. I use to think the same as you do, toughness > vitality, but playing the game for over 4 years i’ve learned the value of vitality over toughness. even my friend after 3 years wants to reduce his toughness in exchange for vitality. don’t get me wrong I still run toughness on my necro but I run much more vitality.

Hm, interesting. I always solo my story missions so I didn’t know about that. But I’ve been playing since beta and I prefer Toughness. I would never switch. I only use Vitality on professions with low HP. But hey, everyone’s different, if you like Vitality then have fun with it! One of the best things about this game is the stat freedom.

The problem isn’t necros high base hp, the problem is necro’s main defensive mechanic scales with vitatility. Which mean vitality will ALWAYS be slight more beneficial to a necro.

The “only using vitality on low hp classes” scthik is thrown out the window when a classes main mechanic scales with vitality.

okay so i finished my build

everything people talk about in here is false atleast most of it….

i was running high vitality builds on my Necro for years now…
since the shroud changes i thrown the soul reaping trait line into the trash and picked up Death magic….. also removed all the vitality from my gear and exchanged it to Toughness…

and HOLY HELL its waaaaaaaaaay better tankier….. i have 20k HP instead of 30k but i sure as hell can take waaaaaaaaay more.. both in shroud and outside of it…
I can actualy somewhat survive thiefs multiple openings before they take me down….

compared to the 30k HP they literaly instantly chewed through before….
same with facetanking Bosses and mechanics etc…..

For Necro toughness is just Better then vitality…..
what people forget is that toughness also douple tips from shroud just like Vitality just in a different way……

im never going back to vitality except if they add some realy strong extra something to Shroud and vitality…

Don’t forget that a lot of your life force comes from passives and deaths that regen your life force in % of your total, so the more vitality, the more passive regen, the more you stay up.

And let’s be real.. toughness in useless in pve, fractals and raids, you can choose that stat but you won’t gain any real benefit.

So what is left out is wvw, where you wanna have atleast 2600 toughness no matter what and condition are the bigger trouble at the moment so vitality is a clear winner on that side.

As other people mentioned, toughness is not your only way to mitigate direct damage as you have the shroud’s natural -50% incoming damage (of which people seems to forget), you have -33% direct damage from protection, -10% from occasional frost aura, -20% from the 6 seconds long reaper#3 skills all of which (except this last one) don’t touch the ammount of condition damage you get.

In other words, yes you can build up toughness but direct damage must not be your only concern and toughness address only this one while vitality let you take both more of direct or condi hits.

Zoltreez.6435:

FrostDraco.8306:

Mea.5491:

sylvnfox.7086:

I know toughness agro in pve is a thing because I duo the story with a friend who is running clerics gear, I’m running marauders and all the mobs go strait for him and I have to work to keep them off him. also think of vitality vs. toughness like this… conditions ignore toughness completely but vitality gives more health for the condies AND direct damage to eat through. I use to think the same as you do, toughness > vitality, but playing the game for over 4 years i’ve learned the value of vitality over toughness. even my friend after 3 years wants to reduce his toughness in exchange for vitality. don’t get me wrong I still run toughness on my necro but I run much more vitality.

Hm, interesting. I always solo my story missions so I didn’t know about that. But I’ve been playing since beta and I prefer Toughness. I would never switch. I only use Vitality on professions with low HP. But hey, everyone’s different, if you like Vitality then have fun with it! One of the best things about this game is the stat freedom.

The problem isn’t necros high base hp, the problem is necro’s main defensive mechanic scales with vitatility. Which mean vitality will ALWAYS be slight more beneficial to a necro.

The “only using vitality on low hp classes” scthik is thrown out the window when a classes main mechanic scales with vitality.

okay so i finished my build

everything people talk about in here is false atleast most of it….

i was running high vitality builds on my Necro for years now…
since the shroud changes i thrown the soul reaping trait line into the trash and picked up Death magic….. also removed all the vitality from my gear and exchanged it to Toughness…

and HOLY HELL its waaaaaaaaaay better tankier….. i have 20k HP instead of 30k but i sure as hell can take waaaaaaaaay more.. both in shroud and outside of it…
I can actualy somewhat survive thiefs multiple openings before they take me down….

compared to the 30k HP they literaly instantly chewed through before….
same with facetanking Bosses and mechanics etc…..

For Necro toughness is just Better then vitality…..
what people forget is that toughness also douple tips from shroud just like Vitality just in a different way……

im never going back to vitality except if they add some realy strong extra something to Shroud and vitality…

Until you get doused and condi’s in your ‘toughness’ does squat. You clearly only used that build vs power damage otherwise you would have a different view.

Toughness does not ‘double dip’ in shroud. Shroud is our main defensive mechanic, which scales with vit, in addition to life force gained from skills also scaling with vitality.

You don’t seem to understand what ‘double’ dipping means.

You get 2x benefit from vit, while the damage reduction on toughness is static. THAT is what a double dip is. Toughness is good, but don’t try to make it seem like necro dosn’t get an edge over other classes by investing in vit.

Based on your numbers i would say got the vit route. You could always swap out a ring or two which are easy enough to come by. This way you can play around with different stat combos. I cant recall the exact numbers but i think i roll about 24k hp and like 2400 armor and mostly solo roam camps and shrines etc, and I don’t seem to have any trouble staying alive. I also did okay in zerg fights at 15fps on my old pc just recently.

It’s really about whatever you feel comfortable with. I just tried to approximate my pvp builds sort of base stats (pali.) and went from there. The build is a bit different in wvw but those two base levels i felt comfortable with achieving. Plus whatever foods you got, banner buffs etc., can change things a bit as well.

Zoltreez.6435:

im never going back to vitality except if they add some realy strong extra something to Shroud and vitality…

It’s so true. Demolisher stats (Power, Precision, Tougness, Ferocity) are the best for roaming on power reaper. it is a shame they didn’t make it out of sPvP. Marauder is trash in most scenarios when it comes to roaming.

But the theorycrafters will never stop. They would immediately, if they’d start to actually play the game and fight a thief, warrior or dragonhunter on marauder and on demolisher gear.

Parias.8613:

Because of this vitality is 1.69 times more effective on a necromancer than other classes.

It’s not. Shroud degenerates at a fixed percentage (3%/sec. atm.). The moment someone kites you (and every single competent player kites a reaper in shroud!) your vitality bonus to shroud becomes useless.

And we didn’t even start to talk about the healing issues you get with 30k HP. You won’t ever heal up that amount of health again in the progression of a fight. Everyone will kite and peel you…

KrHome.1920:

Zoltreez.6435:

im never going back to vitality except if they add some realy strong extra something to Shroud and vitality…

It’s so true. Demolisher stats (Power, Precision, Tougness, Ferocity) are the best for roaming on power reaper. it is a shame they didn’t make it out of sPvP. Marauder is trash in most scenarios when it comes to roaming.

But the theorycrafters will never stop. They would immediately, if they’d start to actually play the game and fight a thief, warrior or dragonhunter on marauder and on demolisher gear.

I’ve had a lot of success with demolisher gear in spvp, however I have to mix marauder’s and soldier’s in wvw because getting the demolisher stat distribution isn’t practical. Hopefully in PoF this changes.

KrHome.1920:

Parias.8613:

Because of this vitality is 1.69 times more effective on a necromancer than other classes.

It’s not. Shroud degenerates at a fixed percentage (3%/sec. atm.). The moment someone kites you (and every single competent player kites a reaper in shroud!) your vitality bonus to shroud becomes useless.

And we didn’t even start to talk about the healing issues you get with 30k HP. You won’t ever heal up that amount of health again in the progression of a fight. Everyone will kite and peel you…

This is exactly right.

It is also part of the reason I stay as base necro in both spvp and wvw. The range of lifeblast is a lot more practical than reaper shroud in most instances. People forget how to fight base necro because they’re so rare. The buff to death shroud 5 revealing also makes fighting thieves, mesmers, and rangers a lot easier than it was before.

But I disagree that vitality is really that bad. As a power necro/reaper, you can be fairly susceptible to condition damage.