What are you giving up for Shroud?

What are you giving up for Shroud?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

Shroud is not the be all and end all to end all arguments. The “Two health bars” argument has never been a good one and continues to misunderstand the necromancer’s plight. So lets find out. Here’s a list of some of the things you give up for having this mechanic.

  1. Active Defenses: Such as Blocks, Vigor, invulnerability.
  2. Support: Very little healing or other means of support for allies, and ultimately unnoticeable.
  3. Mobility: You struggle to move around the map at any reasonable speed. You have little access to movement and the stuff you have its bar far worse than what you’d get on another profession.
  4. Damage: Your over all DPS is never going to reach the heights of other professions because you’re sacrificing that for two whole health bars.
  5. Versatility: If you ever decide to use your Shroud you’ll lose all the versatility that you are afforded while out of it. Not that you get much out of shroud, but Your Minimal Versatility will be cut in half as you struggle with long cast times, long recharge and under powered skills.
  6. Utility: You don’t have very diverse set of Moves. Most have minor differences that don’t have that great an impact on your decision making. Which leaves you with little utility to really surprise your foe.
  7. Group Synergy: You can’t get healed while in shroud either. And your shroud doesn’t have much in terms of ways to synergies with your party.

What do you get for giving up all that?

1. Two Health bars: Can this make up for everything we’re going without? Spoilers, no… No it can’t.
2. ???: Um…. I got nothing else.

So Do you get everything that you’ve given up for those two health bars on the Scourge? Nope. You do get some of it, but not all..

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

“What are you giving up for Shroud?”

Everything…..

the sad thing is Devs think this is fine…..

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

(edited by Zoltreez.6435)

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

“What are you giving up for Shroud?”

Everything…..

the sad thing is Devs think this is fine…..

Yeah, I’m sick of there excuses

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: DTATL.9641

DTATL.9641

What you are forgetting is access to stability and counterplay. Everything we have that is moderately impactful either has a big tell, long cast time or both. Without any meaningful access to stability this makes us very easy to counter especially since we’re slow. While other classes certainly also has big tells and long cast times it’s not as much as necro and they also have better ways to work around it.

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: SpellOfIniquity.1780

SpellOfIniquity.1780

Shroud is a shield, not a sponge. You use it to block what you can’t avoid and to continue on the offensive while remaining defensive (by protecting your health bar).

Although this “shield” does cause us harm in some of the ways you’ve mentioned, I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as many claim. It’s just a matter of understanding and proper usage. Life Force is a much easier resource to replenish than health after all.

The real issue with Shroud is scaling, which it doesn’t have. You can’t block an infinite amount of attacks like you can with Warrior’s Shield Stance, for example.

Yes that is a glaring issue but I disagree that Shroud is more of a weakness than it is a strength.

Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

1. Two Health bars: Can this make up for everything we’re going without?

Oh come one lily, you forgot… One of this health bar is in a permanent state of decay. Which is somehow important to take into account. In reality, it’s more 1 and half health bar that we have, not 2. However, if we take these 1 and half health bar and look at the cumulated sustain, the necromancer have one hell of a sustain.

So the theoric benefits are :
1- an extra half health bar.
2- number 1 sustain in game. (maybe) We are talking about 90hp per LF % gain.
3- extra passive defense through traits giving damage reduction or toughness.

The theory will never beat practice but in theory, the necromancer have a balance amount of survivability thanks to the shroud.

With a grin, from the Devil advocat.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

(edited by Dadnir.5038)

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

Shroud is a shield, not a sponge. You use it to block what you can’t avoid

so bassicaly use it againts everything ? because the only thing we have is 2 dodge outside of Shroud… LOL we cant realy avoid anything … we dont even have mobility for crying out loud to get away from stuff let alone blocks or immunes or invis and evades…..

I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as many claim. It’s just a matter of understanding and proper usage. Life Force is a much easier resource to replenish than health after all.

proper ussage… HAHAHAHAHAHA suuuuure… againts ANY half Decent Burst builds you either stay in shroud and let it melt by the enemy in like 6+ sec then die while your waiting for that 10 sec CD….

or cancel it half way then die because you have NOTHING to defend yourself with while its on that 10 sec CD…..

sooo where is the Management here and proper usage ? this shroud is the Be all end all defense a necro have and the ONLY defense…..

the only ways you survive 10 sec without Shroud while a Burst player is on you is either

by teammates healing and defending you
or
the enemy ignores you….
or
your a kitten lucky person and majority of the enemies stuff is on CD so they cant faceroll your free kill defenseless face…..

againts good players it DOES NOT MATTER if you can replenish Shroud or not or How fast you can replenish it… you WONT survive that 10 seconds without some serious help from others……

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

(edited by Zoltreez.6435)

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Kam.4092

Kam.4092

Not every spec needs to shine in PvP. Scourge will shine in PvE and WvW, just stay Reaper and enjoy your Shroud. It’s not like you have to switch. If you care so much about Shroud, and only PvP, then don’t buy the expansion.

What are you giving up for Shroud?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

Not every spec needs to shine in PvP. Scourge will shine in PvE and WvW, just stay Reaper and enjoy your Shroud. It’s not like you have to switch. If you care so much about Shroud, and only PvP, then don’t buy the expansion.

Acting like shroud overall is good in PvP ….

XDDDDDDDDDDDDD

necro does not have a Single Spec that “shines” in PvP without help you know that right ?

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Kam.4092

Kam.4092

Not every spec needs to shine in PvP. Scourge will shine in PvE and WvW, just stay Reaper and enjoy your Shroud. It’s not like you have to switch. If you care so much about Shroud, and only PvP, then don’t buy the expansion.

Acting like shroud overall is good in PvP ….

XDDDDDDDDDDDDD

necro does not have a Single Spec that “shines” in PvP without help you know that right ?

Then pay someone to help you.

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Jinn Galen.2468

Jinn Galen.2468

Shroud is a shield, not a sponge. You use it to block what you can’t avoid and to continue on the offensive while remaining defensive (by protecting your health bar).

Although this “shield” does cause us harm in some of the ways you’ve mentioned, I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as many claim. It’s just a matter of understanding and proper usage. Life Force is a much easier resource to replenish than health after all.

The real issue with Shroud is scaling, which it doesn’t have. You can’t block an infinite amount of attacks like you can with Warrior’s Shield Stance, for example.

Yes that is a glaring issue but I disagree that Shroud is more of a weakness than it is a strength.

I would love more stability though in shroud and a few outside shroud. For a class meant to be somewhat of a juggernaut, necro could get ragdolled a lot.

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

Shroud is a shield, not a sponge. You use it to block what you can’t avoid and to continue on the offensive while remaining defensive (by protecting your health bar).

Although this “shield” does cause us harm in some of the ways you’ve mentioned, I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as many claim. It’s just a matter of understanding and proper usage. Life Force is a much easier resource to replenish than health after all.

The real issue with Shroud is scaling, which it doesn’t have. You can’t block an infinite amount of attacks like you can with Warrior’s Shield Stance, for example.

Yes that is a glaring issue but I disagree that Shroud is more of a weakness than it is a strength.

I would love more stability though in shroud and a few outside shroud. For a class meant to be somewhat of a juggernaut, necro could get ragdolled a lot.

it only needs a Warrior and mesmer and Reaper stability dissapears… and we have PLENTY of both of them in Spvp……

Devs:

“Designs an offensive hard Hitting Juggernaut”

Forgets to give the utilities to it to be able to go offensive or be a juggernaut.

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Not every spec needs to shine in PvP. Scourge will shine in PvE and WvW, just stay Reaper and enjoy your Shroud. It’s not like you have to switch. If you care so much about Shroud, and only PvP, then don’t buy the expansion.

Scourge will shine in WvW, as for PvE, it may shine in event where there are a lot of mob involved but that’s all.

The problem is more that you take this thread as something directed toward the scourge while it’s a thread that talk about a general mechanism which is the shroud. You literally read it :

“What you are giving up by giving up the shroud”

While the thread is more :

“What the shroud make you give up”

Players with experience debate here about whether or not a few extra health point can rival extra dodge, invulnerability, mobility and block. The crux of the issue is that extra health point make for a limited defensive ressource while the other means tend toward the infinite.

If you want to involve the scourge in the discussion, you have to consider whether 2k extra health point for 2 seconds are worth an extra dodge or not. Or does 5k extra HP for 3 seconds are worth 3 seconds worth of continous block.

There are certainly pro and cons but one thing is sure if you need a short lasting defensive mean because you are forseeing an incoming burst block and dodge will forever be superior. On the other hand, if you need to soak up longlasting damage, a longlasting barrier would be perfect. Except that barriers are not longlasting.

The shroud on the necromancer have to many hats. It’s our supposed mean to do direct damage, move, support and defend ourselve. If you add to that the fact that it is decaying, the necromancer is undoubtely at a loss.

The Scourge change to shroud that free us from the worry of the shroud decay when we want to support and do damage is invaluable as an elite spec. However, the playerbase have the right to feel concerned by the loss of defense and mobility since a shortlasting health barrier is bound to underperform when it come to soaking burst damage and long lasting damages.

This is not players ranting because they’ve just been wrecked by another player and don’t want to aknowledge the fact that they are lacking in personnal skills while the other player wasn’t. This a general concern about the in game balance and the inability of the dev to really make an extra health bar perform at the same level of defense than the other mean of defense. This concern have been lingering since release and have been proven legit.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

What are you giving up for Shroud?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Kam.4092

Kam.4092

Not every spec needs to shine in PvP. Scourge will shine in PvE and WvW, just stay Reaper and enjoy your Shroud. It’s not like you have to switch. If you care so much about Shroud, and only PvP, then don’t buy the expansion.

Scourge will shine in WvW, as for PvE, it may shine in event where there are a lot of mob involved but that’s all.

The problem is more that you take this thread as something directed toward the scourge while it’s a thread that talk about a general mechanism which is the shroud. You literally read it :

“What you are giving up by giving up the shroud”

While the thread is more :

“What the shroud make you give up”

Players with experience debate here about whether or not a few extra health point can rival extra dodge, invulnerability, mobility and block. The crux of the issue is that extra health point make for a limited defensive ressource while the other means tend toward the infinite.

If you want to involve the scourge in the discussion, you have to consider whether 2k extra health point for 2 seconds are worth an extra dodge or not. Or does 5k extra HP for 3 seconds are worth 3 seconds worth of continous block.

There are certainly pro and cons but one thing is sure if you need a short lasting defensive mean because you are forseeing an incoming burst block and dodge will forever be superior. On the other hand, if you need to soak up longlasting damage, a longlasting barrier would be perfect. Except that barriers are not longlasting.

The shroud on the necromancer have to many hats. It’s our supposed mean to do direct damage, move, support and defend ourselve. If you add to that the fact that it is decaying, the necromancer is undoubtely at a loss.

The Scourge change to shroud that free us from the worry of the shroud decay when we want to support and do damage is invaluable as an elite spec. However, the playerbase have the right to feel concerned by the loss of defense and mobility since a shortlasting health barrier is bound to underperform when it come to soaking burst damage and long lasting damages.

This is not players ranting because they’ve just been wrecked by another player and don’t want to aknowledge the fact that they are lacking in personnal skills while the other player wasn’t. This a general concern about the in game balance and the inability of the dev to really make an extra health bar perform at the same level of defense than the other mean of defense. This concern have been lingering since release and have been proven legit.

I guess I’m just more of a happy person, and have fun in the game with everything either way. If Scourge sucks I’ll still play it, and Raid like with Reaper, etc. Seeing people so upset a month before PoF is getting irritating.

We won’t even have a proper way to test DPS this weekend. It’s basically just wait around more. Before HoT people thought Elites would suck. Some did, then some ended up being great.

I would just rather be happy and play. I love Necromancer, and will always main it like in GW1.

I’m just a wait and see type of person, not a dread and fear type.

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: LastDay.3524

LastDay.3524

This thread kinda feels like I’ve gone back 5 years.
Yet it’s still true.

The Death Shroud mechanic has always been kind of a mess.

The problem with it is that it’s nearly useless in some situations and insane in others.

In WvW zerg fights you have an absolutely insane amounts of Life Force due to people on both sides dying in large numbers.
The shroud is excellent in shrugging off the random AoE damage people deal in WvW, and once your shroud runs out your Life Force spikes up to full very fast.
Often you are waiting only for the cooldown, rarely for the Life Force.

Then you go play sPvP and have like 20% life force, which means you get murdered by anyone with decent spiking potential.

There aren’t enough people dying to reliably top your Life Force in sPvP.

It’s also really weird in PvE.
If an enemy deals enough damage to ohko you through shroud then it’s pretty useless.

If they deal constant medium-low damage then the shroud is actually very useful.

If there are a lot of weak adds around to constantly feed you Life Force then it’s actually almost broken.
Reaper is insanely popular in fractals.

It’s just such a flip-flop mechanic.
There’s too much focus on gaining it through deaths.

I have a feeling that Scourge is going to be an absolute monster in WvW, but constantly dead in sPvP.

Applying barriers to some 10-15 people and shredding through opposing zerg’s boons is likely very powerful.

In sPvP you probably need to devote your trait points and Utilities towards Life Force generation to be of any use.
I could see it working for organized teams who peel people off the Necro, but in pugs you’ll probably just get murdered.

Benight[Edge]

What are you giving up for Shroud?

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Posted by: SpellOfIniquity.1780

SpellOfIniquity.1780

Shroud is a shield, not a sponge. You use it to block what you can’t avoid

so bassicaly use it againts everything ? because the only thing we have is 2 dodge outside of Shroud… LOL we cant realy avoid anything … we dont even have mobility for crying out loud to get away from stuff let alone blocks or immunes or invis and evades…..

I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as many claim. It’s just a matter of understanding and proper usage. Life Force is a much easier resource to replenish than health after all.

proper ussage… HAHAHAHAHAHA suuuuure… againts ANY half Decent Burst builds you either stay in shroud and let it melt by the enemy in like 6+ sec then die while your waiting for that 10 sec CD….

or cancel it half way then die because you have NOTHING to defend yourself with while its on that 10 sec CD…..

sooo where is the Management here and proper usage ? this shroud is the Be all end all defense a necro have and the ONLY defense…..

the only ways you survive 10 sec without Shroud while a Burst player is on you is either

by teammates healing and defending you
or
the enemy ignores you….
or
your a kitten lucky person and majority of the enemies stuff is on CD so they cant faceroll your free kill defenseless face…..

againts good players it DOES NOT MATTER if you can replenish Shroud or not or How fast you can replenish it… you WONT survive that 10 seconds without some serious help from others……

I am literally at a loss for words. You are so unfathomably narrow minded I couldn’t think of where to begin an explaination.

Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma