Guild Wars 2

Hello folks!

Time and time again I get simply destroyed by a few Necro’s in PvP using a 30/20/0/0/20 build but I’ve not a clue what this really is. I’ve never played your class before and frankly, I never really considered a Necro all that much of a threat until these last few days.

Can you please post a link to this build for me? Is this something that works as well in WvW as it does in PvP?

thats the Noob meta build that all bad necro’s have become reliant on in order to be competitive.

thats the terrormancer/dumbfire build.

Well, if it’s a noob build, he sure made me look stupid. For a moment, I was considering deleting a character just to roll a Necro and see what the deal was.

FinalPatriot.8034:

Well, if it’s a noob build, he sure made me look stupid. For a moment, I was considering deleting a character just to roll a Necro and see what the deal was.

its a noob build in the sense that any necro can run it and be decent with it.

Ah… Does it work well in WvW? Sorry for the questions as like I said, I know little to nothing about your class.

I wouldn’t listen to that. If a new player were to reroll to that class he’d get dropped in half a second by any thief or warrior.

30/20/0/0/20 is a good build, should work just fine for WvW. Just be warned its a very glassy build and its meant for team fighting (or zerging in WvW), and you’ll be using wells most likely there. As long as you position yourself fine the DPS is really high though.

It can actually absolutely destroy skirmishes if you gear Dire+Dire/rabid accessories because in wvw you have the old dhuumfire and insanely high defensive stats (25k+ hp, 2,6kish armor+strong shroud is a baseline) and devastating condition burst. From the few times i’ve used it in wvw, no groups under 3 players stood ANY chance whatsoever. Ofcourse that doesn’t prove anything but after seeing your enemies melt to your 2200+ condition damage without might there isn’t much left to see…

Bhawb.7408:

30/20/0/0/20 is a good build, should work just fine for WvW. Just be warned its a very glassy build and its meant for team fighting (or zerging in WvW), and you’ll be using wells most likely there.

It’s actually not just “fine” but at least 50% of all necros in WvW run this build.
And like Targuil said, you’ll have Dire and/or Rabid gear with it so you are absolutely not glassy at all, plus Last Gasp and 20% extra life force from Soul Reaping and possibly some decent additional healing from Scavenging runes. If anything this makes you a tank.

People seem to have settled into accepting that necros have access to long duration burning with absolutely no drawbacks.
Necros shouldn’t have it in the first place, yet the duration is still unnerfed for WvW despite being a PvP environment just like sPvP.

I, for one, am still hoping that it’s going to be removed alltogether at some point… or replaced with torment.

Targuil.3741:

From the few times i’ve used it in wvw, no groups under 3 players stood ANY chance whatsoever.

All this tells us is that your opponents were super weak.
There is no build (for any class) that can handle a 2v1 with equally skilled players.

People continue to run that build because it has no drawback. Not running that build would be like unequiping my accessories for more of a challenge. There have been numerous suggestions to fix this problem…. Move dumbfire and terror to Gmaster tier in curses, so you have to pick one or the other, move just terror to Gmaster tier so there is no 50% spectral armor…. on and on….

But for whatever reason they have left it alone (in wvw)…. hopefully the new balance patch make siphoning more appealing, and do something to break up the power of 30 20 0 0 20.

I still rarely see many necros in WvW that are running condition builds though, at least running them effectively. I see almost as many power builds, and many of those condition necros still seem to be taking greater marks, ala NOT 30 20 0 0 20

The dire armor set just made things worse, unfortunately. And with the scavenging runes, even more so. Plus 70% duration, every damaging condition in the game (sans confusion), with the toughness of rabid, the vitality of Carrion, and bonus condition damage from vitality.

That being said, you still die… a lot…. overpowered is a relative term. 30/20/0/0/20 is still not a free win, it just owns the face of someone who has bad condition removal, or who is not running an equally overpowered build (like stunlock warriors, perplex engineers, boon on stealth mesmers, etc)

@Rennoko,

That’s been pretty much my experience with fighting against this build. In sPvP, I pretty much don’t stand a chance as I’m running either a condi build myself or using a GS+Rifle which isn’t really effective in sPvP. In WvW, I found that if I stick to my zerker build, they don’t tend be be a problem but if I’m running condi, I might as well just give up.

FinalPatriot.8034:

@Rennoko,

That’s been pretty much my experience with fighting against this build. In sPvP, I pretty much don’t stand a chance as I’m running either a condi build myself or using a GS+Rifle which isn’t really effective in sPvP. In WvW, I found that if I stick to my zerker build, they don’t tend be be a problem but if I’m running condi, I might as well just give up.

That is the number one worst possible fight for a condi warrior… With a minimum of 2 ways to transfer back your bleeds/burns (5 ways to remove/transfer if they want to take utilities), you don’t stand a chance. I could argue it is fair for various reasons… but in that case it really is an ugly rock vs scissors situation.

Winning that fight as a warrior is very much like it used to be for necros to win fights against overpowered builds before the dumbfire patch. We can all wax nostalgically about the days when the necro forums were whiney, but without bandwagon.

Rennoko.5731:

That is the number one worst possible fight for a condi warrior… With a minimum of 2 ways to transfer back your bleeds/burns (5 ways to remove/transfer if they want to take utilities), you don’t stand a chance. I could argue it is fair for various reasons… but in that case it really is an ugly rock vs scissors situation.

Yup, that’s what I learned (the hard way…). I had never come up against a Necro with this sort of build and wasn’t sure what to expect. After I dropped my entire load of conditions on him, I had a rude awakening!

I sent you a message on your Youtube page so I apologize for asking you again here but I’ve been reading up on this D/D Ele build that uses conditions + toughness/healing. Have you fought one of them before as I hear they can be a real pain.

Sorry for all the questions – trying to find a solid alt to play.

Brando.1374:

FinalPatriot.8034:

Well, if it’s a noob build, he sure made me look stupid. For a moment, I was considering deleting a character just to roll a Necro and see what the deal was.

its a noob build in the sense that any necro can run it and be decent with it.

You mean like the stun locking warrior with condition immunity noob build, or the perma dodge thief noob build, or the 1 shot elementalist noob build… in which any player can press quickly 5 buttons to one shot someone ?…

Let me see now… oh yes… i remember now, double revive engineer with perma condition immunity under 25% health noob build…
They have to press 1 button at the right time to be GOD.

So many noob builds that players have to press a few buttons to be decent… engineer one is my favorite.

Regardless of how easy the build is to use (and its pretty easy) you still can’t be an idiot about it or you’ll get trained down.

Oh wait, its WvW and you have 40 people there to take aggro off you, nevermind do you what you want.

Btw, never expect WvW to get much by way of balance changes except to cut back things that are ridiculous. Its an unbalance-able game mode.

Nemesis.8593:

Brando.1374:

FinalPatriot.8034:

Well, if it’s a noob build, he sure made me look stupid. For a moment, I was considering deleting a character just to roll a Necro and see what the deal was.

its a noob build in the sense that any necro can run it and be decent with it.

…
So many noob builds that players have to press a few buttons to be decent…

The fact that there are several other builds like that shouldn’t serve as an excuse to keep Dhuumfire.
Also, it doesn’t require any extra clicking, you just auto-proc huge damage, hence “noob build”.

Bhawb.7408:

Its an unbalance-able game mode.

SPvP is a lot simpler than WvW, fewer players, less equipment, no food buffs… it’s a toned down version of what you could do with PvE gear, but just because there are a lot more variables doesn’t mean that you can’t balance it. And it’s kind of a lame approach to hugely overpowered gimmick builds or traits or runes (perplexity) to say: well, it doesn’t matter because it’s all unbalanced anyway.

flow.6043:

Nemesis.8593:

Brando.1374:

FinalPatriot.8034:

Well, if it’s a noob build, he sure made me look stupid. For a moment, I was considering deleting a character just to roll a Necro and see what the deal was.

its a noob build in the sense that any necro can run it and be decent with it.

…
So many noob builds that players have to press a few buttons to be decent…

The fact that there are several other builds like that shouldn’t serve as an excuse to keep Dhuumfire.
Also, it doesn’t require any extra clicking, you just auto-proc huge damage, hence “noob build”.

Bhawb.7408:

Its an unbalance-able game mode.

SPvP is a lot simpler than WvW, fewer players, less equipment, no food buffs… it’s a toned down version of what you could do with PvE gear, but just because there are a lot more variables doesn’t mean that you can’t balance it. And it’s kind of a lame approach to hugely overpowered gimmick builds or traits or runes (perplexity) to say: well, it doesn’t matter because it’s all unbalanced anyway.

I highly dislike people that… if they can’t win with their 3 buttons stun lock while invulnerable with a bugged spell that gives them total immunity (OP as kitten), they call you OMG OP, my bugged OPness could not kill you… OP NERF NAO ! That’s why i even answered the guy… Happened so many times…

Burning may be strong in WvW with PvE stats… think about what a one shoting elementalist can do there, cause our burning doesn’t even come close to that…
Must i really post the screenshot with the 22000 damage backstab that was done by a thief again ?… I wish i could put that in my signature.

So… burning may be strong, but there are stronger more broken things at the moment… address that, come back to burning after. There has to be a scale somewhere… little things shouldn’t get fixed before big things… that’s my opinion at least.

edit: also it may be the case that after they fix burning, they remove one shoting elementalists, they reduce 22000 backstab from thief… and all damage is far more forgiving, healers and CCers will dominate the now “endless battle”…
Perhaps is for the better that my glass cannon killed your glass cannon, before your glass cannon one shoted mine…

wow, didnt mean to rustle so many jimmies with my comment.

;)

Brando.1374:

wow, didnt mean to rustle so many jimmies with my comment.

;)

No worries… i just get called a noob a lot in high end PvP by people who got there only thanks to bugged abilities and have half my skill. They met someone who actually knows how to fight them, then they call that person OP noob… while using bugged abilities.
So… i didn’t took it personally, also didn’t referred to you personally… more to a “group of people” i thought you were representing.

Brando.1374:

wow, didnt mean to rustle so many jimmies with my comment.

;)

Prob. because you used “noob” instead of “OP FOTM”. The word noob really does that to people.

FinalPatriot.8034:

I sent you a message on your Youtube page so I apologize for asking you again here but I’ve been reading up on this D/D Ele build that uses conditions + toughness/healing. Have you fought one of them before as I hear they can be a real pain.

I almost -never- see DD eles in WvW anymore. After the nerfs to their movement skills and immunity healing, they are very uncommon. Much like roaming condi necros, you do on occasion seen one, but they are always using some sort of power/sustain/boon build.

My personal experience with DD ele has been that their condition application is too few and far between. The DD toolset has too many hybrid skills to play well as straight condition, and also forces you to be up close all the time.

I can work well in a team environment, but I think it is likely 7th on the list of practical condition classes in effectiveness (necro, mesmer, ranger, engineer, warrior, thief, in no particular order are all stronger IMO).

flow.6043:

SPvP is a lot simpler than WvW, fewer players, less equipment, no food buffs… it’s a toned down version of what you could do with PvE gear, but just because there are a lot more variables doesn’t mean that you can’t balance it. And it’s kind of a lame approach to hugely overpowered gimmick builds or traits or runes (perplexity) to say: well, it doesn’t matter because it’s all unbalanced anyway.

sPvP is a 5v5 (not including hotjoins which they don’t attempt to balance) game mode on a set map with set ways to earn points. Everyone has the same amount of trait points, everyone has the same access to gear, and its always a “fair” fight in the sense that each team has no way to get advantages on each other except in how they play. There are a few things, like if you went in with a team of 5 on teamspeak that had played hundreds of games together against a team of pugs, but realistically speaking the overall variables to unbalance any individual match are fairly limited.

WvW on the other hand, is completely impossible to balance. You can’t assume each team has the same number of resources, they almost never do. Fights are completely unbalanced, and they aren’t even unbalanced in a balanced way, where you fighting a 30v50 on one end of the map opens up a 50v30 on the other. Oh, you also have an entire other server to deal with, and servers are perfectly capable of forming alliances to 2v1 the other server; which happens all the time.

The most they can do is make small attempts to balance builds, but how do you balance 1/10th of a game mode where the other 9/10ths by design cannot be balanced? Why would you even bother? They take away things that break the game (like a lot of PvE tools did), but they aren’t ever going to balance around WvW because it is completely impossible.

Bhawb.7408:

The most they can do is make small attempts to balance builds, but how do you balance 1/10th of a game mode where the other 9/10ths by design cannot be balanced? Why would you even bother? They take away things that break the game (like a lot of PvE tools did), but they aren’t ever going to balance around WvW because it is completely impossible.

I assumed we were talking about builds since Dhuumfire started this argument in the first place…
The way you descibed WvW as an unbalanced game mode is just the fact that higher populated servers have a higher score. No one would ever say this is unfair, you can overpower your opponent with numbers, that’s just the same in sPvP. Yes, you’ll have some more people in other parts of the map doing something else… in WvW you might not, the server score will reflect this as a result, that’s not a big deal to anyone who plays WvW.

Also, the reasoning about not having the same resources etc, I might as well apply that to sPvP and take it to the other extreme: The only way to balance PvP is to reduce the entire gamemode to a 1v1 deathmatch with just 1 class with only 1 available build.
Fact is, people run different builds and some counter others… doesn’t matter which game mode you play. But if a build (trait, rune or w/e) is clearly a lot stronger than it’s supposed to be, then it shouldn’t be left as it is just because it doesn’t have an impact on the WvW server score.

Rennoko.5731:

I almost -never- see DD eles in WvW anymore. After the nerfs to their movement skills and immunity healing, they are very uncommon. Much like roaming condi necros, you do on occasion seen one, but they are always using some sort of power/sustain/boon build.

My personal experience with DD ele has been that their condition application is too few and far between. The DD toolset has too many hybrid skills to play well as straight condition, and also forces you to be up close all the time.

I’ve actually never seen one before either but there has been some chatter as of late that it can be very effective if played right. My Ele has just been collecting dust (even though I used to love the class) as my Warrior just feels like she can do just about anything better than my Ele can.

I think I’ll just roll up a Necro and play around with it a bit in sPvP to see how I like the class. I had thought about deleting one of my non-played 80’s but that would just hurt…

Sadly, I have an 80 Mesmer as well that doesn’t ever get played either.

Isn’t Dhuumfire exacly the same as the engineer burning trait? Except that engineers have it lower in the tree. I think it’s fine but maybe they should move the fear traits? Combine them and make them grandmaster or something?

Bleed stacks are what kill people. Dumbfire is too strong because its basically guaranteed and unpreventable damage that also doubles as a cover condition on a class with already high condition application, making it hard or impossible for many builds to realistically remove the bleeding stacks that are causing pretty massive DPS.